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[Seventy70]

He makes a powerful argument. We have lost the art in engaging each other and listening.

I think the internet has played a large role in that. Everyone is seen as a caricature. People need to be brought down to earth and realize that we are just people that actually have the same interests.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

+1

Not only that. Most people on both sides that think of themselves as free thinkers, are usually repeating other peoples arguments over and over again even without corroborating if they are true of not. In a sense they are the puppets of somebody else thinking.

Modern politics tend simplify really complex problems with very complex solutions. Populist like Trump or Sanders do it that way (i.e if we kick the inmigrants/blame the rich/abolish trade agreements, etc. your life will improve). The problem is that it leaves very little room for debate, you are either red or blue, there is no more room for moderates.

The people leaving little room for debate are extremists labeling themselves as centrists and moderates. According to them, there is no alternative to the current state of affairs. They act like folks are supposed to give them a pass when they're wrong and selling folks out to enrich themselves.

 

[Audioboxer]

He makes a powerful argument. We have lost the art in engaging each other and listening.

Most do listen and engage, there is just a growing number on the left who go straight to hostility. It's like forgetting between 1 and 10 there is 8 numbers in-between. Gotta go straight to 10 the second a dissenting opinion is found.

I'm framing this within arguing with fellow liberals and leftists. I can understand some losing their rag and going straight to 10 with people on the other end of the political spectrum. I personally don't think it's always best, but it is what it is. The real damage moderates are causing is attacking their own, not strictly the attacking of "the other side".

Anecdotally I haven't seen more banned names on GAF in forever. While a lot of it is for right wing nasties a fair few leftists seem to have caught the hammer. Most presumably because of the way they engage with others (cursing, putting down and ramping it up to 10 on everyone).

 

[ZackieChan]

I think people need to get off the internet once in a while. It just isn't a place to have meaningful political discussions. This wasn't about the extreme right or extreme left(the people you find arguing about politics on the internet), it was about everyday people whose voice gets drowned out in this crossfire. The Republicans have won these people over repeatedly. No one is saying the right is made up of angels, but they are actually willing to reach out and "educate" these people (wrongly). These days a person only has to call themselves a Republican or express a slight disagreement before their entire voice is dismissed. Which side are they going to go to? We are starting to look at people as caricatures. I know Republicans in real life and they aren't as out there as you would think. Though, the ones that you usually see in the media are. Everyone needs to take a step away from social media and talk to one another in person.

This is so true. The painting of anyone who votes to the right as some kind of alt-right neo nazi on here and other places is ridiculous. I know a bunch of people who voted Trump, and they are none of those things. Of course there are crazies, there are crazies on both sides. But having these discussions on the internet, where everything is pumped up to 11 and both sides are extreme, isn't helping.

 

[Don'tBeWeird]

Rusell Brand has similar sentiments but is less obnoxious about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3Ou5uFFn8Q

 

[Abstrusity]

Most do listen and engage, there is just a growing number on the left who go straight to hostility. It's like forgetting between 1 and 10 there is 8 numbers in-between. Gotta go straight to 10 the second a dissenting opinion is found.

I'm framing this within arguing with fellow liberals and leftists. I can understand some losing their rag and going straight to 10 with people on the other end of the political spectrum. I personally don't think it's always best, but it is what it is.

The very existence of people who don't want to discuss turns what would otherwise be rational argumentation into motte and bailey fallacies.

The people that make mistakes, but at least put in the effort TO make mistakes, are categorized with people who never put in the effort at all.

Then, without talking to them, instead talking through them or discounting their ignorance (or their hatred), fails to fix problems. The water swells because the dam is closed. When a storm comes, the flooding happens.

That's what we saw, here. There are plenty of people who are actively bigots, and there are plenty of people who don't understand and make no effort to. But then there are others that DO make an effort to, and they outnumber the others.

 

[Kid Ying]

Great piece. I agree withhim, especially on the part that treating right winged people like villains accomplish nothing. The only for true progress is talking and show better ways for people with uestionable ideas. Hate filled people just makes more hate filled people

And, unfortunately, this is no just on internet anymore, but these days we are having real life confrontations because of ideologies which i pretty sad. I think the internet possibilities of mantaining echo Chambers made people less likely to head dissenting opinions on real life.

 

[jorma]

How were they told to fuck off? By Clinton not visiting the state enough?

Can you show me evidence that Clinton, the Dems and their campaign heaped scorn on blue collar workers? Note, not promising them "you'll get your jobs back! believe me! I have the best people to work on that! believe me!" isn't "telling them to fuck off".

At least publicly, Schumer has no worries about his party’s dwindling fortunes among working-class white voters. “For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...ats-will-lose-blue-collar-whites-gain-suburbs

If this was in my country, there'd be no coming back after such a statement. Maybe the us is different? Or uh, maybe not. I found out about this yesterday and still can't fucking believe a democrat insider would say something like that. It's pretty much the worst quote of the campaign in my ears, beating the deplorables shit by a country mile.

It's pretty obvious they didn't go after or even care about the blue collar vote.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Jonathan Pie is a pie.

I'm glad someone is finally going against safe spaces and the disgusting use of the word mansplaining. The anti-pc crowd have been oppressed for too long

Oh shut up


I'm a black man who attended a pwi, safe spaces are absolutely necessary. And it's such arbitrary fucking thing anyways. An office is a safe space, a church is a safe space....but those are getting shot up now too.

And privileged class folks do need to unpack their shit. As man I do it. White people should do it. Because we shouldn't dictate what's sexist or how women should feel. White people don't get to be the arbiter of what is or isn't racist.

 

[Seventy70]

Rusell Brand has similar sentiments but is less obnoxious about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3Ou5uFFn8Q

Wow, he put it in a great way. If this didn't happen now, it was going to happen eventually. We need to use this opportunity to figure out where things went wrong.

 

[RipperGrim]

If the only reason you voted for a candidate was because you felt insulted by the opposition then you're really not mature enough to be voting.

The fact is not everyone who votes for trump is a sexist or racist but they are accepting his sexism and racism and allowing it to go unchallenged. I don't know which is worse.


The rest of his points are good though.

 

[mStudios]

You could have linked to the Joe Rogan thread instead.

You got my attention. Link please.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Rusell Brand has similar sentiments but is less obnoxious about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3Ou5uFFn8Q

Less obnoxious? I find that hard to---

Well. Not a fan of his nor do I agree with everything he said, but that's a pretty good way to put it, for the most part.

 

[Teletraan1]

One of the most dumbfounding things this past cycle was that, not only did the Clinton crowd demonize the right, they vilified the left as well, their allies! If you weren't on their specific hue of the political spectrum, then you were part of the problem. If you were too progressive, you were naive and delusional and your ideas would never have a chance of being enacted so you shouldn't even try. If you liked Bernie, well look right here, we've got this nice Bernie Bro narrative to run with to label people as sexists and racists, even Bernie himself! The implications that people wouldn't have prodded issues in Hillary's policy if she were a man. The implications that they weren't actually taking anything seriously and that they weren't gonna show up at the polls. Anyone not 100% on board with the queen was a problem.

Since the election has ended, so many people on gaf, myself included, have finally been able to step out and speak about how we were effectively chased away from political discussion here. I voted for Bernie in the primaries, and voted for Clinton in the GE, I never once ever considered anyone on the Republican side, including Trump. Voted for Obama, live in a blue area in a state that just went red, pro LGBTQ+, pro civil rights, supportive of BLM, supportive of religious tolerance [being athiest myself], etc, etc, etc. I'm on your fuckin' side and you managed to push people like me away by shutting down any concern or dissent. I can't even imagine how people on the right truly feel about you if you manage to chase your own side away. You don't want to hear it but you have to consider the perspective of other people that aren't in your left but not-too-left bubble, including poor and racist white people. Everyone has their story that brought them to the person they are today.

Despite being the side of inclusion and tolerance, your behavior echoes that of the right in that you only have compassion and empathy for the people you've decided you want to have compassion and empathy for. Don't get me wrong, it's clear as day, a ton of Trump supporters are bigoted, fucking tell them off for doing bigoted shit. But in the past few days so many on gaf have made it clear that they don't even want to entertain the idea of understanding their perspective, AKA 'why they are the way they are' AKA bigoted. They won't extend an olive branch to you so you won't extend one to them. Well, guess what? No olive branches for anyone ever. You can sit in your pile of Trump until you die, convinced that somehow hate won't breed more hate. But they're Americans, too, and they also have the power to vote.

For as shitty as America is, it's a lot less shitty than it used to be, and it blows my mind that nobody wants to be a bigger person because they've got some moral high ground to uphold instead of taking the morally high action of trying to enact change. This election has made it clear that there's a divide between urban and rural Americans. Urbanites can afford to give a shit about trans rights and the injustices of police brutality. Most jobs in the city aren't really going anywhere, and if they do, you can fall down the ladder a few steps. Yeah, it sucks to work at Mickey D's, but at the end of the day, you're at least alright. Out in the boonies, they don't have that shit. One job down and that's it. Factory closed and all those workers need something to do. Meanwhile, us cityfolk are rallying behind green energy and letting immigrants and refugees in because we're thinking of the greater future, the long game. These are things that are ultimately better in the grand scheme of things, but will only serve to make things shittier for the countryfolk. But instead of trying to understand, you've decided they're all a bunch of bigots and they can't be helped and they shouldn't be helped. Deplorable, racist, uneducated. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, if your morals are actually good, you'd find a way to help those people without giving into their hate. At least Trump had his bullshit wall, which kills the immigrant and job birds at the same time. Again, doesn't matter if the wall is viable or true, he at least offered something. Clinton didn't offer them anything, and neither did you, leaving them with Trump. Because you didn't want to give an inch in order to gain a mile. You think you're doing the right thing, but they also think they're doing the right thing. But because you don't have in interest in their perspective, you'll never find a way to fix things. That's a defeatist attitude, the idea that nothing can be done about racism and sexism.

That's why you shout them down and drown them out. If the bigots don't have a voice, then it's almost like the country is moving forward. But no, they're just silent, but the hate is still there. The hate pops up every now and again, maybe a baker somewhere doesn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding. Hits the news. We all denounce it. We send the bad press their way. We send the hate their way. They go out of business. We think we've won. Another step of progress. They go home to their kids and tell them 'the faggots are ruining this country'. We didn't win, we made things worse. Now that hate is festering into a new form. But at least we got to feel morally superior to the homophobe, if only for a moment. Again, doesn't matter that we are morally better because we didn't actually fix anything. Cycle this over a billion times and everything is worse. We could have worked to invite these people to our side, to get them under our umbrella. Bernie had a shot at it, but Clinton didn't try. What a huge step it would be to convince that side there was common ground with the socially progressive. Instead, the left was content with letting the bigots vote for the bigot so when they lost they would continue doing bigoted things. Well now they've won and we didn't want a bridge so none of them split off with us. Bonus points because the winner has terrible healthcare and economic policies and also doesn't believe in climate change. Good thing we let all those eggs gather in one basket. Half the country didn't even vote, and this toxic behavior did no favors towards getting them to take action. Be the change you want to see. I'm going to bed. This is a worthless post.

Fucking awesome post. Not worthless at all.

 

[PnCIa]

He makes some good points even though his delivery in form of an angry rant is shit. Mainly that the dems main efford looked like they bet on people voting for anything but Trump. As data showed, a lot of voters DID NOT vote for either side since the incentives to vote for Clinton were not big enough. And of course the whole "dont you dare saying X since racism" thing is true but thats nothing new.

Lets not forget that these campaigns are a huge strategy game though and its much more than just people thinking that Clinton was not good enough. The whole scorched earth strategy (supposedly Bannon aka Josef Göbels idea) that was discussed could explain a lot since alienating voters from both sides can lead to a lower overall turnout since both canidates are..."terrible" which in turn makes the relative turnout for Trumps side greater since he was able to get certain groups to get active.

Since he (and a lot of others) like to mention Sanders as better candidate, i dont believe that he would have been a better one per se. For those who lean very left (in the US mind you, in Europe nobody would scream socialist at him) he may be great, but i fear that the demographic thats beeing discussed so much in the last 3 days, the white ex middle class, may not vote for a "socialist". Their way of life and the life they want back is based on a relatively unregulated capitalism and i fear that Sanders socialism leans so far to the left that this would go against their american way of life. Obama had a semi-socialst agenda as well but he was not as direct as Sanders.

The whole racism problem. I wrote it many times before that voting for Trump means that racism is passively accepted. And thats true. It doesnt mean that all Trump voters are part of the "alt right" and would actively participate in racist acts.
American needs to ask itself how they can combat the active and the passive types of racism. It needs to find a way to deal with parts of his base (Breitbart folk) who are openly racist while at the same moment listen to the concerns of the passive bystanders whose concerns are probably not race related.

 

[wolf73]

nvm.

 

[Audioboxer]

Fucking awesome post. Not worthless at all.

Although yes, as I said previously Phu has put some good effort into reasonably laying out a case for some of what this video says, but without cursing, satire and hyperbole. You lose a lot of people the second you try to be "angry person on YT".

 

[Mahadev]

Wow, that speech was like it was written about this forum. Many here either should learn from this or watch President Trump talk at his victory speech in 2020 because you certainly didn't listen to people like this guy when you had the chance.

 

[EmSeta]

Mr. Pie nails the truth on this. Discussion is absolutely the key here, and both sides have lost this art.

We need to learn how to work on compromise again.

Yes. False equivalence aside, this is where the left is just as bad as, if not worse than, the right. Endlessly name calling and demonizing won't win anyone over to your side. It'll just drive people away.

 

[quickwhips]

Wow, that speech was like it was written about this forum. Many here either should learn from this or watch President Trump talk at his victory speech in 2020 because you certainly didn't listen to people like this guy when you had the chance.

Pretty much how i feel. I feel reading the threads nothing will be gained for 2020 and that worries me the most. Discussions need to happen. We can't ignore talking to someone because if your not with us your against us.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Mr. Pie nails the truth on this. Discussion is absolutely the key here, and both sides have lost this art.

We need to learn how to work on compromise again.

Yes. False equivalence aside, this is where the left is just as bad as, if not worse than, the right. Endlessly name calling and demonizing won't win anyone over to your side. It'll just drive people away.

I REALLY love these false equivalences. Yes, the thing the democrats haven't been doing over the last 8 years is comprising and bending to the republicans who haven't been obstructionists who have increasingly embraced more the radicalized, hateful group of the american public (Thank god there was nothing called the tea party) and have continually gained more and more power from these actions.

But you're right it's because the democrats have been babies and never given a message of inclusiveness and not hating others for the color of their skin or where they came from. Democrats have to grab their boot straps, put on their big boy pants and meet xenophobic racist sexists halfway in their policies or they're doomed to lose this country forever.

I'm glad people have wiped even recent history from their mind to pander to their own beliefs. Shocking.

 

[EdibleExplosives]

Oh shut up


I'm a black man who attended a pwi, safe spaces are absolutely necessary. And it's such arbitrary fucking thing anyways. An office is a safe space, a church is a safe space....but those are getting shot up now too.

And privileged class folks do need to unpack their shit. As man I do it. White people should do it. Because me shouldn't dictate what's sexist or how women should feel. White people don't get to be the arbiter of what is or isn't racist.

I wasn't being serious, thought that was pretty obvious. I definitely don't agree with what he's saying in the video.

 

[Violet_0]

You lose a lot of people the second you try to be "angry person on YT".

not directed at you, but I'm sensing some irony in this sentence

 

[Audioboxer]

not directed at you, but I'm sensing some irony in this sentence

In what sense? I meant it in the way if you swear, scream and shout many tune out. It's just inevitable you will lose some viewers tackling complex issues in that way. Even if it can be funny, satirical or effective.

It is seen a lot on YT as its what gains massive popularity metrics. Drama channels and the likes.

 

[GorillaJu]

That video was cathartic as hell. The big liberal echo chamber has served no one. The bubble we all thought we were safe and comfortable in has burst and now we're staring at the mess.

 

[Metroxed]

I find it interesting how in the US the Democrats and Hillary's supporters are somehow seen as "the Left", when in truth by any standards they are at best an economically moderate, socially progressive right, but right still.

 

[Violet_0]

In what sense? I meant it in the way if you swear, scream and shout many tune out. It's just inevitable you will lose some viewers tackling complex issues in that way. Even if it can be funny, satirical or effective.

It is seen a lot on YT as its what gains massive popularity metrics. Drama channels and the likes.

those that come in here to complain about how obnoxious Pie is and how they stopped watching after 40 seconds are likely the very same people who tend to shout down any oppinion that doesn't align with their views, one of the points he made in the video. That's what I meant with irony. The message isn't going to be received if you don't treat others as equals

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I wasn't being serious, thought that was pretty obvious. I definitely don't agree with what he's saying in the video.

Oh, my bad. I can't tell, even now it doesn't read like it's facetious. It's especially difficult since folks are coming out of the woodwork post election to shit on liberal sensibilities.

 

[Shredderi]

That was a pretty good video.

 

[RichiRamjag]

He has a bit of a great point. I'd never vote trump, but some liberals can be too much at times. I had someone here tell me 1 post into a discussion that I was the type of person who was a danger to his daughter because I respectfully disagreed with some news topic (to be fair he apologized shortly after I called his behind out), folks have called me a gun nut here and tried to shut me up with drive by stupidity as well here.

Thankfully, I'm not a fool who turns further right because of it, I simply know those people aren't worth my time if they can't engage in a conversation without immediately labeling me, but acting that way is never going to turn someone around.

 

[Audioboxer]

those that come in here to complain about how obnoxious Pie is and how they stopped watching after 40 seconds are likely the very same people who tend to shout down any oppinion that doesn't align with their views, one of the points he made in the video. That's what I meant with irony. The message isn't going to be received if you don't treat others as equals

Most likely, but irony is lost on many in the left these days. I posted this post in the topic about the election and racism, but I think it plays into what Pie and others are trying to get across in this topic

those people were NEVER going to vote for anyone but the republican nominee. there's no talking them down. there's nothing rational they will listen to. no amount of shaming or screaming or anything was going to change their mind. the only thing we can do is wait for them to die. the only way to beat them is to show up to the polls in greater numbers. which obviously didn't happen in this election and is why they won.

if you voted trump you are a racist. you did a racist thing. fuck you for being a racist.

True, but Clinton potentially managed to alienate her own audience from displaying some of that strident attitude. There's saying you don't stand for or support discrimination, then there's the basket of deplorables approach.

Like it or not there will be liberal voters with family members they potentially respect even although they vote republican. I'm sure many liberal voters debate such family members, but many won't be like "FUCK YOU GRAN YOU PIECE OF SHIT". Some egos were potentially bruised that Clinton appeared to be bashing your loved, but debated republican family members. Not every person who knows a republican blanket despises them, aka grandparents, you're deploreables.

Clinton had to win an election, she can't behave like some GAF posters who answer to any complex discussions with "fuck you, fuck this, eat shit and die, bigot, racist, sexist". That's the world of politics and at the end of the day when someone you want to win, wins, you quickly shrug off their more liberal/tolerant approach don't you? End justify the means and all that jazz. Point being America is arguably one of the most diverse countries on the planet, and Clinton needed to be mindful of this as she's trying to court liberals. Some on GAF can quickly retreat to their echo chamber of "zero tolerance, you're all cunts", but that's not how an election is won, and hopefully liberals currently licking their wounds begin to catch on. It's not saying anything about your morals personally, so no need to get offended, it's about winning an election because if you don't win, you get Donald Trump. Courting right wing voters is also arguably easier, especially when the hill some die on is simply "anti-abortion? you've got my vote".

Liberals enjoy open dissent, debate, argument and throwing around ideas. As ironically that is what to be liberal is suppose to mean. When you want an echo chamber of same-think, or else it's all out verbal abuse wars, then you're no better than the right. The right is the epitome of echo chambers, with many conforming and standing in line. I can assure you the more the left goes down this path the more voters it will bleed, and they'll either up end disenfranchised with politics and stop voting, or vote 3rd party/independent. I mean jeez, the hostility thrown at independent voters without even taking 5 minutes to understand why people went to them. The left summed up, cocked and loaded shotguns waiting to blow the heads off anyone not conforming in line. It's becoming an authoritarian movement, at least the liberals online are displaying such behaviour.

Liberals are a lot more diverse and less easy to put into a grab-all basket. It's not easy to campaign for the liberal vote, and Clinton got this served to her on a silver plate.

From the election numbers the biggest issue seemed to be liberals staying at home, and some being lost to independent/3rd party. If the 2020 campaign doesn't take note of this, even more might stay at home next time and/or figures will continue to bleed into the libertarian party. When people give up on Democrat it's not just to throw away their vote, its in itself a protest that they aren't happy. I'd still happily stand by my often said "get out and vote", but I will not bash people who voted Gary Johnson. I think Johnson is an ass, but I get voting libertarian. You're not happy with either the Democrats or Republicans. Guess what, calling everyone racist, sexists bigots is not going to get many of these people back on board either. So beware those on the left that think this is the way to go...

 

[EdibleExplosives]

Oh, my bad. I can't tell, even now it doesn't read like it's facetious. It's especially difficult since folks are coming out of the woodwork post election to shit on liberal sensibilities.

I don't blame you, with the influx of serious posts about being tolerant towards intolerance.

 

[lawnchair]

Yes? You are responsible for the actions of the government you vote for.

i completely agree. but it doesn't meant that you agree with those actions. again, anti-war people voted for obama. people who wanted pacifist foreign policy voted for obama, knowing well that he wouldn't practice those things. why did they vote for him? because they thought the other candidate was an unacceptable option.

those people don't approve of drone strikes but they still voted obama and would've/did voted for hillary. people vote for presidents who have positions/ideas they find reprehensible all the time. it's more than possible that some number of trump voters isn't actually racist/homophobic/misogynist etc despite the fact that trump has at times displayed all of those things.

 

[Freyjadour]

I REALLY love these false equivalences. Yes, the thing the democrats haven't been doing over the last 8 years is comprising and bending to the republicans who haven't been obstructionists who have increasingly embraced more the radicalized, hateful group of the american public (Thank god there was nothing called the tea party) and have continually gained more and more power from these actions.

But you're right it's because the democrats have been babies and never given a message of inclusiveness and not hating others for the color of their skin or where they came from. Democrats have to grab their boot straps, put on their big boy pants and meet xenophobic racist sexists halfway in their policies or they're doomed to lose this country forever.

I'm glad people have wiped even recent history from their mind to pander to their own beliefs. Shocking.

The discussion moved very very quickly from "not having a ground game in the rust belt is insane" to this. You can have a message and a plan that includes people economically and still condone social backwardness.

I wasn't being serious, thought that was pretty obvious. I definitely don't agree with what he's saying in the video.

You're joking, but your post is exactly what I'm seeing from a lot of people I work with rallying around this video.

 

[Father_Brain]

I'm a leftist, I backed Sanders in the primary, I will forever loathe the Clinton campaign and the Democratic establishment for fucking this up, I think said establishment has a real cultural elitism problem that played a major role in dictating their failed campaign strategy, I think that the rhetoric of intersectionality can be and has been abused by Team #ImWithHer to silence crucial discussions on class and foreign policy issues, and I think left-populism needs to be the way forward for the party.

That all said: fuck everyone ostensibly on the left using Trump as an excuse to whine about SJWs, safe spaces, and trigger warnings.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Meanwhile we won by 2m or more votes.

 

[Melchettsmoustache]

If you know your opinions are shitty and terrible, don't have the shitty and terrible opinions.

That's a huge oversimplification as you know.

During the Scottish referendum I didn't comment that I was voting No simply because it invited a huge backlash on social media. I can see the same scenario here where the yessers had convinced themselves that they would win because they didn't see a lot of No's in there newsfeed. What they didn't see when they were decorating their houses with Yes and wondering where the no's were was that the majority of the houses with nothing on were making the same statement as their Yes stickers.

I don't see it as particularly surprising that masses supported a scenario where they were told they would pay less tax and would see more jobs.

If your a parent of two kids struggling to get by your not worrying about forwarding the struggle of minorities that you perhaps aren't coming across in your daily life as much as the stress and concern of paying your mortgage and putting food on the table. I would assume that's why many people tend become more right wing as their years march by.

Bizarrely I seem to be more left of centre now than I was when I was younger and I'm happier to pay council the tax hikes were getting over the next 12 months here in Scotland because the money is clearly needed.

 

[BoosterDuck]

Meanwhile we won by 2m or more votes.

if it were that simple then the Trump Campaign would've changed their strategy on popular voting

we lost fair and square bro thanks to Trump's straight up lying, the DNC's shenanigans and poor people who are real desperate

 

[blankempathy]

if it were that simple then the Trump Campaign would've changed their strategy on popular voting

Amazing how people don't understand this. Trump campaigned to win the ec vote. If your goal is A you don't go after B.
Also Phu great post. Nailed a lot of reasons why I didn't even bother with discussing politics here during the election.

 

[Polari]

Eh, anyone that tried to make this very point on this forum over the past year was repeatedly shouted down, and I see the same denial about being part of the problem continues on in this thread.

Enjoy Trump I guess. If you keep going the way you are there will be more where he came from.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

Meanwhile we won by 2m or more votes.

Everyone knew the rules of the game coming in. Can't play this card now.

 

[Polari]

Guys, it totally wasn't the 63% of eligible white male voters and 52% of eligible white female voters voting in a racist misogynistic homophobic narcissist, it's the liberals fault!

It's comments like this I really don't get. In a democracy you need to persuade people of your views - that's the point, it's government by a consensus in society, not government by all the people like you and with similar views.

Marginalising people accomplishes nothing if you actually want to country to be run the way you think it should.

This forum is part of the problem - comments like "Makes sense why the rural white people love him. He was an idiot like them." in a thread yesterday go unchecked because rural white people are the enemy according to hivemind, and are only worthy of stereotyping and racism.

 

[Raven117]

PC is one thing.... But the hyper left took it sooooo far that unless you actually agreed with their ideology you somehow were NOT PC. This is not okay. It shut down debate and discussion, even among folks of your own party!

People are just people man. We breath, we eat, we need jobs, we need friends, a safe place to sleep, and lovers... We should all be able to talk to each other like this.

 

[Feep]

One of the most dumbfounding things this past cycle was that, not only did the Clinton crowd demonize the right, they vilified the left as well, their allies! If you weren't on their specific hue of the political spectrum, then you were part of the problem. If you were too progressive, you were naive and delusional and your ideas would never have a chance of being enacted so you shouldn't even try. If you liked Bernie, well look right here, we've got this nice Bernie Bro narrative to run with to label people as sexists and racists, even Bernie himself! The implications that people wouldn't have prodded issues in Hillary's policy if she were a man. The implications that they weren't actually taking anything seriously and that they weren't gonna show up at the polls. Anyone not 100% on board with the queen was a problem.

Since the election has ended, so many people on gaf, myself included, have finally been able to step out and speak about how we were effectively chased away from political discussion here. I voted for Bernie in the primaries, and voted for Clinton in the GE, I never once ever considered anyone on the Republican side, including Trump. Voted for Obama, live in a blue area in a state that just went red, pro LGBTQ+, pro civil rights, supportive of BLM, supportive of religious tolerance [being athiest myself], etc, etc, etc. I'm on your fuckin' side and you managed to push people like me away by shutting down any concern or dissent. I can't even imagine how people on the right truly feel about you if you manage to chase your own side away. You don't want to hear it but you have to consider the perspective of other people that aren't in your left but not-too-left bubble, including poor and racist white people. Everyone has their story that brought them to the person they are today.

Despite being the side of inclusion and tolerance, your behavior echoes that of the right in that you only have compassion and empathy for the people you've decided you want to have compassion and empathy for. Don't get me wrong, it's clear as day, a ton of Trump supporters are bigoted, fucking tell them off for doing bigoted shit. But in the past few days so many on gaf have made it clear that they don't even want to entertain the idea of understanding their perspective, AKA 'why they are the way they are' AKA bigoted. They won't extend an olive branch to you so you won't extend one to them. Well, guess what? No olive branches for anyone ever. You can sit in your pile of Trump until you die, convinced that somehow hate won't breed more hate. But they're Americans, too, and they also have the power to vote.

For as shitty as America is, it's a lot less shitty than it used to be, and it blows my mind that nobody wants to be a bigger person because they've got some moral high ground to uphold instead of taking the morally high action of trying to enact change. This election has made it clear that there's a divide between urban and rural Americans. Urbanites can afford to give a shit about trans rights and the injustices of police brutality. Most jobs in the city aren't really going anywhere, and if they do, you can fall down the ladder a few steps. Yeah, it sucks to work at Mickey D's, but at the end of the day, you're at least alright. Out in the boonies, they don't have that shit. One job down and that's it. Factory closed and all those workers need something to do. Meanwhile, us cityfolk are rallying behind green energy and letting immigrants and refugees in because we're thinking of the greater future, the long game. These are things that are ultimately better in the grand scheme of things, but will only serve to make things shittier for the countryfolk. But instead of trying to understand, you've decided they're all a bunch of bigots and they can't be helped and they shouldn't be helped. Deplorable, racist, uneducated. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, if your morals are actually good, you'd find a way to help those people without giving into their hate. At least Trump had his bullshit wall, which kills the immigrant and job birds at the same time. Again, doesn't matter if the wall is viable or true, he at least offered something. Clinton didn't offer them anything, and neither did you, leaving them with Trump. Because you didn't want to give an inch in order to gain a mile. You think you're doing the right thing, but they also think they're doing the right thing. But because you don't have in interest in their perspective, you'll never find a way to fix things. That's a defeatist attitude, the idea that nothing can be done about racism and sexism.

That's why you shout them down and drown them out. If the bigots don't have a voice, then it's almost like the country is moving forward. But no, they're just silent, but the hate is still there. The hate pops up every now and again, maybe a baker somewhere doesn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding. Hits the news. We all denounce it. We send the bad press their way. We send the hate their way. They go out of business. We think we've won. Another step of progress. They go home to their kids and tell them 'the faggots are ruining this country'. We didn't win, we made things worse. Now that hate is festering into a new form. But at least we got to feel morally superior to the homophobe, if only for a moment. Again, doesn't matter that we are morally better because we didn't actually fix anything. Cycle this over a billion times and everything is worse. We could have worked to invite these people to our side, to get them under our umbrella. Bernie had a shot at it, but Clinton didn't try. What a huge step it would be to convince that side there was common ground with the socially progressive. Instead, the left was content with letting the bigots vote for the bigot so when they lost they would continue doing bigoted things. Well now they've won and we didn't want a bridge so none of them split off with us. Bonus points because the winner has terrible healthcare and economic policies and also doesn't believe in climate change. Good thing we let all those eggs gather in one basket. Half the country didn't even vote, and this toxic behavior did no favors towards getting them to take action. Be the change you want to see. I'm going to bed. This is a worthless post.

There are good points in this post, but I think the key is to understand that *no president is going to fix rural America*. Globalization is shutting down factories. Movement to greener forms of energy are shutting down coal mines. And within ten years, the most common job in the United States, truck driver, is going to rendered entirely obsolete.

I know these people were desperate for something, anything, to return their towns to their glory days of yesteryear. And many of them were willing to plug their fingers in their ears regarding racism to do it. But the reality is that Donald Trump sold them a lie. Whatever their reasons for being uneducated are...and it's hard to "blame" a person for any behavior, if you try to trace it far enough backward...they're wrong, and their ignorance has cost this country, and the world, an incredible amount.

I *understand* the non-bigots who voted for Donald Trump. I simply have no respect for them. I do not believe the vast majority can be reached with logical arguments, and so I will not try, especially considering the not insignificant mental damage it does to me, banging my head against a brick wall of stupid.

Your comments about the left demonizing the left are spot on, however, and I do wish people would quit it with that shit.

 

[OG Kush]

Wanted to post this thread as well. great video, and feel it hits home to the GAF hive mind and the thread someone posted last week about that topic.

 

[maquiladora]

Wanted to post this thread as well. great video, and feel it hits home to the GAF hive mind and the thread someone posted last week about that topic.

GAF is not a single entity. Don't do this.

 

[Raylan]

"Not everyone that voted for Trump is a sexist or a racist. How many times does the vote not have to go our way before we realize that our argument isn't won by hurling labels and insults?"

"Stop thinking that everyone who disagrees with you is evil, or racist or sexist or stupid and talk to them"

"Being offended doesn't work anymore"

Damn, this guy is good!

 

[hydragonwarrior]

I stumbled upon this video today (friend shared it) and it's at like almost 100 million views on facebook.

The art of discussion is lost, and the art of insult is real. A lot of that contributed to that bubble I was in. However, I honestly have no idea on it. I created a thread related to this the other day in discussing climate change to people:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1313964

The results were more or less expected: there's no discussion to be had, if at all that lead to anything.

There has to be some kind of revolution in communication where anonymous sides can argue with objective points, and without any interruption from politics nor insults. That's the only way I can see it working properly - otherwise in this internet age we're stuck with facebook style insult wars masqueraded as a debate...

 

[soco]

I stumbled upon this video today (friend shared it) and it's at like almost 100 million views on facebook.

The art of discussion is lost, and the art of insult is real. A lot of that contributed to that bubble I was in. However, I honestly have no idea on it. I created a thread related to this the other day in discussing climate change to people:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1313964

The results were more or less expected: there's no discussion to be had, if at all that lead to anything.

There has to be some kind of revolution in communication where anonymous sides can argue with objective points, and without any interruption from politics nor insults. That's the only way I can see it working properly - otherwise in this internet age we're stuck with facebook style insult wars masqueraded as a debate...

Why do people think the art of discussion is lost?

The single biggest issue has been many people on the right refuse to participate in any real discussion. There's so much propaganda tied to their feelings and fears of being marginalized that they genuinely want to believe that. Plus that's what all their friends are watching and talking about, so for them to stand up and have a conversation puts their personal relationships at risk, which is a big deal in rural areas.

I've personally spent an unfortunate amount of my time trying to engage family and friends, and it's only served to distance me from them. They just dig their feet in and refuse to hear anything. This isn't new in the least. People have been observing this for ages.

The difference is we've allowed the media to become an even bigger part of this, and we've made it profittable.

 

[Malakai]

It's kind of a misconception that he makes when he claims that the voting booth is finally the time when you can speak your mind, the problem is that in this election the democrats won the popular vote, so it wasn't that a bunch of people stood up and voiced their opinions in the booth, just about 5m+ less than 2012 decided to not have a voice at all and let the chips fall where they may. He may be right about the complacency of the democrats, but implying it was some kind of revolt against the system is stretching it by a lot, especially considering the "outsider" had less votes than Romney. Neither candidate was wanted, arguably trump was wanted less, but the DNC decided to ignore key states that they just assumed belonged blue. Personally I think it speaks more about voter disenfranchisement than it does for any kind of political revolt.

You spoke too soon, as of 6:17 PM EST 12/1/2016
Clinton Vote: 65.27 Million
Trump Vote: 62.67 Million