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If to talk about identity and equality is to divide, then we have no hope whatsoever.

You talk about oppression not identity. Many people may be unfairly suffering and it's because the oppressors engage in identity politics not the oppressed. Identity politics is the force that is working against you not for you.

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

Please educate me on what blue collar fears are comparable to; deporting millions of citizens. Banning an entire religion from entering the country? Stripping rights away from the LBGT community and minorities? Continuing to destroy the only planet we have?

I'll wait.

For the type of voter that pushed Trump over the top, those are abstract, indirect fears (if they even care about them at all - let's assume they do just for argument's sake.). He may care in an abstract sense about these sort of things but they have direct and personal experience of economic suppression and povertization because of all the things Trump talks about. "This pussy grabbing dude is telling me I can get my union job back that I raised my family with, which was sent to Mexico in 1996?". It's total bullshit but it's alluring. The abstract suffering of a distant group of people is not going to be more important than that for those sort of people. And, when NY/LA "elites" are telling that person he's a bigot for feeling that way - that will entrench the position, not change it.

Personal will always trump abstract. No pun intended.

(and the fact that Trump is a liar and a charlitan even on these issues that Rust Belt workers elected him on is irrelevant - HRC and her campaign didn't even try to make that apparent or obvious. Total failure.)

 

[ZackieChan]

I agree that we must face people.

But, I personally don't see that opportunity ever coming up.

You argued on YouTube comments and with Neo Nazis - you thought you'd be changing minds? That's not where you concentrate your efforts. Those people aren't coming around.

isn't saying that every single person who voted for trump is fine with sexism and racism like saying that every single person who voted for hillary is fine with blowing up innocent brown people in the middle east with drone strikes? or a no-fly zone in syria? or corporate money in politics? etc

My thoughts, as well. It's total nonsense.

Fantastic post! You just described the sentiment of what I can only imagine is a pretty large percentage of Gaffers. I don't have the emotional energy at 39 that I did when I was 18-20.

I used to badmouth Republicans all the time (still do but grew up in a strictly republican household in the middle of a blue state, Portland, OR) for just voting right down the line R without any thought or consideration. This was my father. To this day he just votes party lines. This train of thought to me always felt so ignorant to me.

Due to this I always identified as liberal. I took pride on thinking for myself, empathizing with others and wanting EVERYBODY to have equal rights.

Sadly, 20 years later I am seeing this exact same attitude out of the liberals that I hated about republicans in my youth. The rabid nature of HillGAF here took me expecially by surprise because I have very good reasons for disliking Hillary (See MM's recent stuff) such as her voting against gay marriage until it was socially acceptable and voting for the Iraq War when it shouldn't have been.

I have come to the conclusion that we are living in the midst of an empire collapsing and there is nothing we can do to stop it now. I would love to be wrong but as long as the attitude is to fight negativity with negativity then we will all lose.

I'm 38, and feel exactly the same way you do. We're like soulmates. I was livid at everything Bush did, but I don't have the energy for it anymore. And getting yelled at because I say that Hillary is unlikeable and maybe people don't want to vote for her, certainly isn't gonna get me on anyone's side.

Still cracking up at everyone but Trump voters being credited for Trump winning

Your posts have no nuance, in an argument that has a lot of it. But naturally, you don't see any of it. Everything is "all or nothing" to you and your ilk here, and it's killing your cause.

Back when I used to rail against a professor of mine for being a sellout Democrat and Keynesian when I was a hardline Socialist, he linked me this song in an email.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw

It seems trite, but it was a legit moment of clarity for me.

Ironic that this is the song that Trump plays all the time at his speeches

 

[Melkezadek]

Losing their entire livlihood, a fear of a lack of a future for their children. A continued corrupt democratic party that ignores them and just expects them to turn out and vote.

They're disenfranchised by neoliberal policies of the last 36 years, and the lack of available opportunities. They see their quality of life decreasing, and see that banking/politician coalition as the people responsible for it.

No one with an ounce of sanity thinks he's capable of deporting millions of citizens, or even banning an entire religion from entering the country.

They did not take him literally, you did, and expect that they should also. You're creating a false dichotomy through that.

I understand that even uttering those things should not be allowed, but if on one hand you see "bloviating bullshit, but a threat to (insert enemy)", and the other, "the enemy", then it becomes a bit of a different picture. Clinton is hated by a lot of people.

Fuck man, her husband was more regressive for social justice than Richard Nixon.

You really are just...unaware.

Once again. Whether or not he can or cannot get those policies enacted is irrelevant. It's what that kind of rhetoric enables. Are you blind to what's going on around you? People are being attacked. Hate crimes are already going up without him even being in office.

What do you think that is from?

You people are so detached from what's actually going on in the lives of minorities, women, and others who've been targeted by this man. So unaware.

 

[mkenyon]

For the type of voter that pushed Trump over the top, those are abstract, indirect fears (if they even care about them at all - let's assume they do just for argument's sake.). He/she may care in an abstract sense about these sort of things but they have direct and personal experience of economic suppression and povertization because of all the things Trump talks about. "This pussy grabbing dude is telling me I can get my union job back that I raised my family with, which was sent to Mexico in 1996?". It's total bullshit but it's alluring. The abstract suffering of a disant group of people is not going to be more important than that for those sort of people.

Personal will always trump abstract. No pun intended.

(and the fact that Trump was a liar and a charlitan even on these issues that Rust Belt workers elected him on is irrelevant - HRC and her campaign didn't even try to make that apparent or obvious. Total failure.)

Exactly. It's bullshit, but at least they feel like he's against the system that they believe has screwed them over. It's the result of post industrialism, but that concept is really hard to explain as a politician. At least give the hope of a different way forward, and clear vision of that.

You really are just...unaware.

Once again. Whether or not he can or cannot get those policies enacted is irrelevant. It's what that kind of rhetoric enables. Are you blind to what's going on around you? People are being attacked. Hate crimes are already going up without him even being in office.

What do you think that is from?

You people are so detached from what's actually going on in the lives of minorities, women, and others who've been targeted by this man. So unaware.

I addressed that in the sentence below your bolded line.

And don't visit my intentions, you're now equating me with the people I was talking about. I'm not your enemy. I just know and empathize with the people that you think are your enemy. Go ahead and be angry, but please don't lash out at me, nor put words in my mouth.

 

[Sblargh]

People are focusing on SJWs way too much.
Call racists out. Shame them. Fuck it. Trump didn't won. He lost less. The Deplorables are still The Deplorables. The problem wasn' Hillary calling them out on it, the problem is the hypocrisy of, of all people, Hillary Fucking Clinton feeling that for some reason she had the moral high ground to call people out on it.

And then based the entire campaign around it. And just around it.

Focus a bit less on why people voted for Trump. Are you going after the pro-life vote now? The racist vote? The "law and order" mass encarceration vote? The "Kick them out and build the wall" vote? The Stop and Frisk vote?

If you start down this road, you won't win anyone new and you just lose the little you have still willing to vote on the lesser evil. Because the lesser evil is becoming more like "the evil" each day.
Focus on why not-racists, who are still the majority, didn't liked Hillary and stop the bullshit that it was because she "isn't perfect" or "not charismatic".

I would start with stop using the cutsy word "hawkish" to describe someone who is in favor of murdering innocent brown people across the planet.

 

[Eyemus Lutt]

This video is so full of shit. Hillary Clinton was the most liberal major party candidate in history, she lost because she had no message and couldn't connect with white Americans the way Trump could.

I think it was more that the Democrat didn't turn up for her because Trump voters were a lower amount than Romney and the moderates were pushed away by other Democrats.

I was born in Africa and have lived for the last 20 years in Australia and have voted for the Green party here for the past three elections which is as left as you can get here. Just posting on GAF for the past few months I've felt that if I don't agree with a certain issue it's better to just don't bother posting or there will be a high chance of being banned.

I just came off a two week ban for disagreeing with something and a mod banned me for being Racist against black people even though I'm blacker than the average person. This sort of thing will just create an echo chamber where just like the polls in the US It showed a Hillary win but at a certain point there's no point arguing and its better to stay silent and vote when the time comes.

Now if I lived in America I still would have never voted for Trump because I'm also a Muslim, but if it was a McCain or Romney I would have voted for a Republican without any hesitation.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

You argued on YouTube comments and with Neo Nazis - you thought you'd be changing minds? That's not where you concentrate your efforts. Those people aren't coming around.


My thoughts, as well. It's total nonsense.



I'm 38, and feel exactly the same way you do. We're like soulmates. I was livid at everything Bush did, but I don't have the energy for it anymore. And getting yelled at because I say that Hillary is unlikeable and maybe people don't want to vote for her, certainly isn't gonna get me on anyone's side.



Your posts have no nuance, in an argument that has a lot of it. But naturally, you don't see any of it. Everything is "all or nothing" to you and your ilk here, and it's killing your cause.



Ironic that this is the song that Trump plays all the time at his speeches

You know what

I'm more concerned about what's going to happen to my family and friends, particularly my gay and brown friends, as a result of this new national validation of hatred than in repeatedly analyzing why people voted for Trump. We know why. It's done.

I'm going to make some jokes and be irreverent while I can and if that offends you so be it.

 

[JasoNsider]

In the case of a video like this, it's less of a heel-turn on beliefs and more of "I thought that was a bad idea anyways".

Point taken! I'm taking a shot at the arm chair "I knew all along" crowd a bit as well, but you're right that this specific video's message is not that people need to heel-turn on their beliefs but more he thought it was a bad idea to start.

 

[shysaursoft]

No one with an ounce of sanity thinks he's capable of deporting millions of citizens, or even banning an entire religion from entering the country.

Not him personally - but this isn't about Trump, this is about what a Trump administration enables. Trump is the patsy the GOP used to get their ace team into power, and that team *wants* to do a hell of a lot of liberty-destroying in the name of "white christian god-fearing nation", and if you're unaware of it, you need to start paying attention to who is coming into power because of Trump, even if Trump himself doesn't directly enact any of these things.

 

[BeesEight]

I'm not American, but as observer, these post-election "we lost, so time to heel-turn on our beliefs" style takes are pretty asinine. Have some conviction I say and stop mincing words about what actually happened here. That is: the winning candidate won largely on a racially/nationally charged platform (mainly white supremacy with a healthy dose of xenophobia and even sexism).

Saying that not all trump supporters are racist, sexist, or bigoted (and thus they are washed of responsibility) is giving them far too much credit. The absolute undeniable truth is that they are, at the very least, people who decided that Trump's xenophobic, sexist, bigoted rhetoric was unimportant. I mean, this is hardly even up for debate. We're all intelligent people and we don't need to dance around the facts. There's hardly ever been a candidate that has been this extreme on the issue. Hell, a top 5 issue is to build a massive fucking wall to keep the unwashed rapist mexicans out. No, I'm sorry, you do not get to say #NotAllTrumpVoters when this happens. The same way you can't say "hey I'm still with GooberGate but I don't support the harassment of women that's happening literally all around me" ...and oh hey, I'll also not openly condemn the terrible stuff that I claim to not be in support of in these movements.

This video is no better. Stand by your convictions. If anything, say more about all this, not less. When you encounter sexism, racism, and more, say something about it let it be known you won't stand for it.

This is it for me.

Trump was not shy about his stances. There was no hyperbole here. No twisting of words. He was a racist. He was a white nationalist. All he offered was incoherent ramblings, outright lies and xenophobia.

If you voted for him, you support all of that. He didn't have a single (sane) policy issue that wasn't addressed on the other side more thoughtfully and with clear, implementable steps.

Instead, people wanted to vote in terror, obstructionism and the promise of - at the very least - a trade war with the country's closest partners. One quarter of America outright supported this. Near fifty percent, for whatever reason, stepped back and shrugged their shoulders.

Point the blame all you want, America. You're the one with President Donald fucking Trump and an administration filled with some of the most radicalized conservatives seen in a very long time. But I'm sure all of this could have been avoided if only - if only! - those poor absentee voters and rural whites were politely educated that hatred and bigotry were bad. Without, of course, telling them that their blatant hatred and bigotry - or support of said hatred - is a bad thing. Come one lefties, you must coddle the assholes. Otherwise they won't listen to you!

As if they didn't have any fucking time to listen all the way up to this point. Because, once again, Trump wasn't whispering coded honey words here.

This video is useless. "I'd vote for Lucifer over Trump. But I wouldn't vote for Hillary over him." Thanks Jonathan Pie; your British contribution has been insightful. As political satire, this is awful and empty.

 

[MHWilliams]

Please educate me on what blue collar fears are comparable to; deporting millions of citizens. Banning an entire religion from entering the country? Stripping rights away from the LBGT community and minorities? Continuing to destroy the only planet we have?

I'll wait.

The problem is many of these places were built around a single industry and when that industry left, it left them without anything. No job, little prospects, and many are simply afraid to leave. (The tricky point many miss is many of those "white coastal elites"? They grew up in rural america and left because there was no place for them there.) No work, no money to leave, no infrastructure or amenities nearby. They are desperate.

As I said in another thread, the gulf between life in a place like this:

and the inner city isn't that huge:

And in many of these poor counties, minority people are there too.

Poorest county in the US by per capita income? Wheeler County, Georgia. A random Google.

Poorest county in the US by median income? Buffalo County, South Dakota, which is mostly Native American. Next step? Holmes County, Mississippi. Random google.

Now, Wheeler went red while the other two went blue, showing that economic anxiety can't be the only indicator - so some of that responsibility still lies in that vote - but my larger point is that these are some desperate folks and help them not only helps the Democratic coalition, it also helps minorities in those areas.

Theres not a whole lot you can do for blue collar Ameruca, unfortunately, short of a radical restructuring of the economy. If all you have to offer are third world skills, you are eventually going to be earning third world wages.

This is a larger problem that we discussed at length in the Rural America thread.

People are focusing on SJWs way too much.
Call racists out. Shame them. Fuck it. Trump didn't won. He lost less. The Deplorables are still The Deplorables. The problem wasn' Hillary calling them out on it, the problem is the hypocrisy of, of all people, Hillary Fucking Clinton feeling that for some reason she had the moral high ground to call people out on it.

And then based the entire campaign around it. And just around it.

Focus a bit less on why people voted for Trump. Are you going after the pro-life vote now? The racist vote? The "law and order" mass encarceration vote? The "Kick them out and build the wall" vote? The Stop and Frisk vote?

If you start down this road, you won't win anyone new and you just lose the little you have still willing to vote on the lesser evil. Because the lesser evil is becoming more like "the evil" each day.
Focus on why not-racists, who are still the majority, didn't liked Hillary and stop the bullshit that it was because she "isn't perfect" or "not charismatic".

I would start with stop using the cutsy word "hawkish" to describe someone who is in favor of murdering innocent brown people across the planet.

Harsh, but the bolded is damned true. You have to build a coalition within the bounds your morals.

 

[ZackieChan]

You know what

I'm more concerned about what's going to happen to my family and friends, particularly my gay and brown friends, as a result of this new national validation of hatred than in repeatedly analyzing why people voted for Trump. We know why. It's done.

I'm going to make some jokes and be irreverent while I can and if that offends you so be it.

Nothing you say "offends" me. But it shuts down discussion about these topics, and discussion is what should be happening.

This is a larger problem that we discussed at length in the Rural America thread.

IIRC, a lot of that thread contained the "well, they're racists, so fuck 'em" dismissals, as well.

 

[VendettaRed07]

As much as people defended her when she said it. Or that "well, she isn't wrong", when she called Trump supporters the "basket of deplorables", it was probably the biggest mistake (that she could control at least) of her campaign.

Was her Mitt Romney 47% moment. A Presidential candidate just cannot say something like that. And gave Trump and his surrogates an out whenever Hillary tried to play the moral high ground argument due to whatever Trump said.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Nothing you say "offends" me. But it shuts down discussion about these topics, and discussion is what should be happening.

How does anything I post prevent anyone else from posting?

I'm just one poster, not even a mod.

For the past few days all of the minorities in this board who've expressed anxiety over what's to come in the wake of a documented bigot with a homophobic vp being chosen as the next president have been told repeatedly that we're overreacting, to suck it up. That feels more like shutting down discussion to me.

 

[Melkezadek]

The problem is many of these places were built around a single industry and when that industry left, it left them without anything. No job, little prospects, and many are simply afraid to leave. (The tricky point many miss is many of those "white coastal elites"? They grew up in rural america and left because there was no place for them there.) No work, no money to leave, no infrastructure or amenities nearby. They are desperate.

As I said in another thread, the gulf between life in a place like this:



and the inner city isn't that huge:



And in many of the counties, minority people are there too.

Poorest county in the US by per capita income? Wheeler County, Georgia. A random Google.



Poorest county in the US by median income? Buffalo County, South Dakota, which is mostly Native American. Next step? Holmes County, Mississippi. Random google.



Now, Wheeler went red while the other two went blue, showing that economic anxiety can't the only indicator, but my larger point is that these are some desperate folks and help them not only helps the Democratic coalition, it also helps minorities in those areas.



This is a larger problem that we discussed at length in the Rural America thread.

I empathize with poverty...believe me, I do, but I wouldn't trade my soul to escape. It's a moral failing.

Even if I had nothing but the clothes on my back and food in my belly to sustain me, I wouldn't harm my fellow man to change my situation. These people voted with their eyes wide open, knowing the things he was saying is wrong, and still they voted.

I understand the frustration, but since when is this kind of scapegoating acceptable? There is no amount of suffering that can justify it.

How does anything I post prevent anyone else from posting?

I'm just one poster, not even a mod.

For the past few days all of the minorities in this board who've expressed anxiety over what's to come in the wake of a documented bigot with a homophobic vp being chosen as the next president have been told repeatedly that we're overreacting, to suck it up. That feels more like shutting down discussion to me.

Exactly. It's not about our suffering. It's about their fragility. Protect them protect them. They're the ones who need convincing. Pacify them. They use us just like they claim the DNC did. It's like they've realized that appealing to minorities isn't the problem, it's white workers in rural areas. "Settle down while we hear them out! Please try to stay alive until we sort this mess out."

They ask us to respect others' grievances while belittling ours.

 

[mkenyon]

I empathize with poverty...believe me, I do, but I wouldn't trade my soul to escape. It's a moral failing.

Even if I had nothing but the clothes on my back and food in my belly to sustain me, I wouldn't harm my fellow man to change my situation. These people voted with their eyes wide open, knowing the things he was saying is wrong, and still they voted.

I understand the frustration, but since when is this kind of scapegoating acceptable? There is no amount of suffering that can justify it.

But policies to reach out to blue collar workers also directly help women and minorities. We're all workers. Reaching out to them is not a compromise.

 

[MHWilliams]

IIRC, a lot of that thread contained the "well, they're racists, so fuck 'em" dismissals, as well.

You're never going to get around that.

The intense emotions held by some minorities in America based on past and current treatment, is real. And many of those fear were borne out by that self-same rural America. Especially in the Deep South.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

That said, the thread eventually lead to some strong discussion.

I understand the frustration, but since when is this kind of scapegoating acceptable? There is no amount of suffering that can justify it.

I'm not scapegoating. I'm saying they do carry the responsibility for that vote, but I understand why they may have made that choice. And with the right policies, you simply bring them along.

That's key. The acknowledgment that the vote is an approval of racist rhetoric and policy, but also that a plan aimed at fixing those counties, combined with strong political outreach (which again, doesn't have to be at the hands of minorities! You can find white liberals that can speak directly to their concerns!) is key to preventing another outcome like this election.

 

[Jmanunknown]

The video is bs and trying to pass the blame off on the left instead of the people who actually voted for trump. Like said I before the election when you cast your vote for which ever canidate whether you like it or not your voting for their whole platform regardless of whether or not you supported the whole thing. Sure you may not support Donald Trumps racism, misogyny or xenophobia but he ran on a platform that included racism, misogyny, and xenophobia so you supported whether you like it or not. Also I am tired as hell of hearing people talking about the left coddling people who voted to throw them under the bus its a ridicuous all that does is get you ran over by the bus.


Here is a prime example of compassionate loving minority people giving a racist person a chance trying to overcome their hate with love and all that ended up getting them was death.

Before he allegedly opened fire on members of a Bible study group at a church in Charleston, South Carolina, Dylann Roof sat with them. He might have prayed with them.
A Snapchat video from Wednesday night at the historic African-American church shows Roof at a table with the small group. Nothing in the footage suggests the carnage to come.

Police say Roof shot and killed nine people inside the historic Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, near the heart of Charleston's tourist district. Eight died at the scene; a ninth died at a hospital.
Authorities were shocked not only by the killings but that the violence occurred in a house of worship.

The Rev. Clementa Pinckney speaks at the church in Charleston in December 2012.
The Rev. Clementa Pinckney speaks at the church in Charleston in December 2012.
Johnson told CNN her friend recounted the man coming into the church, asking for the minister.
"My cousin, being the nice, kind, welcoming person he is, he welcomed him to his congregation, welcomed him to the Bible study, and he sat there for an hour ... At the conclusion of the Bible study, they just heard just a ringing of a loud noise, and it was just awful from what I heard," Johnson said.
When the son of her friend pleaded with the shooter to stop, Johnson said the gunman replied: "'No, you've raped our women, and you are taking over the country ... I have to do what I have to do.' And he shot the young man."
Her friend pretended she was dead.
"But she watched her son fall and laid there. She laid there in his blood," Johnson said.
From what she heard, the gunman reloaded five times.
Before he left the church, he asked one of the elderly members whether he had shot her, and she said no.
"And he said good, because we need a survivor because I'm going to kill myself," Johnson told CNN.

That is the type of person that has been empowered by election of the next president. if you voted for him you have to live with the consequences of your actions. Sure you voted for your own economic interests but that does not absolve you of of the responsibility of your vote you weighed your options thought your own economic interests were more important than anything else live with it the rest of surely have too.

 

[Eyemus Lutt]

That is the type of person that has been empowered by election of the next president. if you voted for him you have to live with the consequences of your actions. Sure you voted for your own economic interests but that does not absolve you of of the responsibility of your vote you weighed your options thought your own economic interests were more important than anything else live with it the rest of surely have too.

Trump won because Democrats didn't come out and vote not because people voted for trump. The question you should be asking is why didn't the people who voted for the Democrats in previous elections not bother voting this time.

 

[Averon]

But policies to reach out to blue collar workers also directly help women and minorities. We're all workers. Reaching out to them is not a compromise.

This. Reaching out and trying to help Joe in rural Ohio who is worried that he and his family are about to be homeless because he cannot find a job does not mean that you also cannot still support BLM and LGBT rights.

Why do people think this is an either/or situation?

 

[Melkezadek]

You're never going to get around that.

The intense emotions held by some minorities in America based on past and current treatment, is real. And many of those fear were borne out by that self-same rural America. Especially in the Deep South.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

That said, the thread eventually lead to some strong discussion.



I'm not scapegoating. I'm saying they do carry the responsibility for that vote, but I understand why they may have made that choice. And with the right policies, you simply bring them along.

That's key. The acknowledgment that the vote is an approval of racist rhetoric and policy, but also that a plan aimed at fixing those counties, combined with strong political outreach (which again, doesn't have to be at the hands of minorities! You can find white liberals that can speak directly to their concerns!) is key to preventing another outcome like this election.

And I understand that. Getting perspective is important to coming up with solutions.

But people are now doing it to the lengths of completely trivializing the real concerns of the victims on this election. Instead of empathizing with the very real problem we're facing, we get told to pipe it down while we try to figure out how we can appeal to white, rural workers. Completely being sidelined to figure out how we can "win" next time. For some of us, there might not be a next time. I haven't slept in days.

 

[ZackieChan]

You're never going to get around that.

The intense emotions held by some minorities in America based on past and current treatment, is real. And many of those fear were borne out by that self-same rural America. Especially in the Deep South.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

That said, the thread eventually lead to some strong discussion.

Oops, I thought we were referring to the thread I made a few weeks back about the Cracked article. I'll dig into the rural America thread.

I always get the feeling that by saying that there are other reasons why someone would vote Republican/Trump other than racism, the impression of many people is that I or the voters are somehow saying racism is ok. The problem is that by having no nuance, your driving allies away. That's what happened here, it seems, and will continue to happen.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Blaming the voters? That is a meaningless statement. The only reason there's any blame to place is because you feel that something bad happened. People who voted for Trump disagree. You can't blame them for disagreeing with you. This is about what could've been done by the people who did not want Trump elected.

No because you can also blame the Obama voters who didn't turn out.

They could have stopped Trump but oh noes, Clinton doesn't give them a warm fuzzy feeling the way Obama did, so they "can't relate" and "she seems bad" so they stay home. Their absence was in a very slender margin, but juuuust enough to give those states to Trump. That's on them too.

As much as people defended her when she said it. Or that "well, she isn't wrong", when she called Trump supporters the "basket of deplorables", it was probably the biggest mistake (that she could control at least) of her campaign.

Was her Mitt Romney 47% moment. A Presidential candidate just cannot say something like that. And gave Trump and his surrogates an out whenever Hillary tried to play the moral high ground argument due to whatever Trump said.

Bullshit. Romney's comment was more harmful to his campaign because he targeted people that could have potentially voted for him. But the people she called "deplorables" were never going to vote for her to begin with. She didn't lose votes with that comment.
Especially since Trump repeatedly insulted every demographics in the US except straight white men, and he got away with it.

Let's stop pretending Hillary was too mean. If anything, she wasn't mean enough and perhaps could have used more fire in her rhetoric.

 

[MHWilliams]

But people are now doing it to the lengths of completely trivializing the real concerns of the victims on this election. Instead of empathizing with the very real problem we're facing, we get told to pipe it down while we try to figure out how we can appeal to white, rural workers. Completely being sidelined to figure out how we can "win" next time. For some of us, there might not be a next time. I haven't slept in days.

I get that and that's why I'm trying to say that to others. It's why I think the video is wrong.

You can't say "Listen to their pain so we can move forward", while ignoring the pain and fear of others. This goes in all directions. You're reaching out to rural America and the Rust Belt to bring them along? That's great and worthwhile. But do not try to discard ethnic/religious minorities and LGBT in that quest.

If you are going to say, "I get why they vote for a President that has vowed to enact racist policy", then you need to have the room to also understand why that would make someone else angry and afraid.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

This. Reaching out and trying to help Joe in rural Ohio who is worried that he and his family are about to be homeless because he cannot find a job does not mean that you also cannot still support BLM and LGBT rights.

Why do people think this is an either/or situation?

Do you think they'll give equal time to addressing both? From a pragmatic perspective they won't have time to, so they will choose to publicly push the economy/jobs angle, which is good because it helps everyone. They won't spend as much time, if any, addressing the minority issue because they simply won't be able to. They may support them, but it won't be visible.

Now to get even grimier, this still works out well from a numbers standpoint because NOT focusing on minority issues will be seen as a plus by some white voters. I know this is a sore spot but people have to accept this reality of our country. Again, they may support the issues and even start laying groundwork but it will not come to the forefront. This will undoubtedly turn off some minority voters who want to see a candidate dedicated to the specific issues ON TOP OF the ones common across the board. Still, from a raw population standpoint the candidate is probably still ok.

This is probably the only effective way Dems can get back in. It's not actively repulsive like a Trump campaign and still actually has policy.

It made me feel dirty just to type it but we have to deal with the reality of our nation's divides, I feel that clearly now.

 

[jorma]

No because you can also blame the Obama voters who didn't turn out.

They could have stopped Trump but oh noes, Clinton doesn't give them a warm fuzzy feeling the way Obama did, so they "can't relate" and "she seems bad" so they stay home. Their absence was in a very slender margin, but juuuust enough to give those states to Trump. That's on them too.

Let's stop pretending Hillary was too mean. If anything, she wasn't mean enough and perhaps could have used more fire in her rhetoric.

The democrats told those former blue collar Obama voters that they'd rather get two moderate republicans for every one of them that left the party than trying to win them back. That's not staying home because you didn't get a fuzzy feeling, that's staying home because you were told to fuck off.

 

[ZackieChan]

I get that and that's why I'm trying to say that to others. It's why I think the video is wrong.

You can't say "Listen to their pain so we can move forward", while ignoring the pain and fear of others. This goes in all directions. You're reaching out to rural America and the Rust Belt to bring them along? That's great and worthwhile. But do not try to discard ethnic/religious minorities and LGBT in that quest.

If you are going to say, "I get why they vote for a President that has vowed to enact racist policy", then you need to have the room to also understand why that would make someone else angry and afraid.

I don't see anyone saying that people don't have the right to be angry. I see people imploring those that are angry to channel that anger and those principles in a way that brings more people to their side, or at the very least tricks them into being on the same side.

The constant berating and belittling isn't working, hence the need for some introspection.

 

[Jmanunknown]

This. Reaching out and trying to help Joe in rural Ohio who is worried that he and his family are about to be homeless because he cannot find a job does not mean that you also cannot still support BLM and LGBT rights.

Why do people think this is an either/or situation?

No one thinks its a either or option all the time but this election though for the rural ohio person it became an either or option though and they chose themselves. It sucks but that is the reality of the situation.

Trump won because Democrats didn't come out and vote not because people voted for trump. The question you should be asking is why didn't the people who voted for the Democrats in previous elections not bother voting this time.

Its intellectually dishonest to ignore that their was a large campaign by the republicans to suppress voting rights because they knew whenever voting is down they win. Hell they went so far as to overturn parts of the voting rights act.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I don't see anyone saying that people don't have the right to be angry. I see people imploring those that are angry to channel that anger and those principles in a way that brings more people to their side, or at the very least tricks them into being on the same side.

The constant berating and belittling isn't working, hence the need for some introspection.

Are you going to address what I said or

 

[Lostconfused]

people voting for Trump caused Trump to win.

So what?

Someone will always vote for Trump.

How many thousand people actually voted for Harambe? Was that thing? Was that real?

Do you just expect them to not vote for Trump? If that's your plan then he will always be president.

If nobody votes for the opposition even a single vote for Trump means he wins.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

So what?

Someone will always vote for Trump.

How many thousand people actually voted for Harambe? Was that thing? Was that real?

Do you just expect them to not vote for Trump? If that's your plan then he will always be president.

If nobody votes for the opposition even a single vote for Trump means he wins.

Ok

 

[Jmanunknown]

I don't see anyone saying that people don't have the right to be angry. I see people imploring those that are angry to channel that anger and those principles in a way that brings more people to their side, or at the very least tricks them into being on the same side.

The constant berating and belittling isn't working, hence the need for some introspection.

Its kinda to late for that though once you vote for someone who has said they are going to actively make their lives worse and is lining up the people to make that a reality it is too late. Also like MLK said "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere

 

[ZackieChan]

Are you going to address what I said or

What's there to address? You aren't interested in a discussion, since your posts demonstrate that you're not willing to change your mind on anything. But you accuse me and others of shutting down discussion, even though this thread is full of discussion. No, frankly, I'm finished discussing anything with you.

Ok

Are you going to address what he said or

Its kinda to late for that though once you vote for someone who has said they are going to actively make their lives worse and is lining up the people to make that a reality it is too late. Also like MLK said "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere

Where was this talk when Obama was killing civilians with drone strikes in his first term?

 

[TheGraykid]

I see that the Trump presidency has essentially just become a way for people to push ideas they already felt.

If you hate the dnc elite for not being fair to your candidate, then that's the reason trump got elected.

If you aren't a fan of sjw groups and the use of the phrase "white privilege", then that's the reason trump got elected.

If you think middle America has been unfairly left behind/demonised, then that's the reason trump got elected.

Please let's just acknowledge the truth, that a series of complex cultural, political and economic things led up to this event occurring. This isn't an "I told you so!" moment for anyone.

 

[LordKasual]

Video

Real emotion, Real words, this was good

I've literally been posting this concept ever since i was approved here.

You'll never win arguments by automagically assuming that the opposing argument is invalid.

It's a terrible strategy and it creates more enemies than swayed opinions. Ultimately the only thing it confirms to either side is that the other is unwilling to compromise or budge.


dunno if it's why the democrats lost, but im glad he articulates it better than i ever could

 

[wildfire]

For a person that says "we need to not stoop to insults" he certainly went to that level by ragging on the people that want safe spaces, or trigger warnings, or anything of the sort.

He cited examples and your response is to tone police. Come back when you have an argument instead of an emotional reaction.


Some of his points are flawed in certain ways but you have only one point and it's goal is to nitpick.


His flaw is believing actual discussion always works. Studies are showing that gaining trust and showing you care convinces people.

The flaw can be forgetting these 2 points while discussing. It's possible to talk whole being condescending.

 

[teruterubozu]

As much as people defended her when she said it. Or that "well, she isn't wrong", when she called Trump supporters the "basket of deplorables", it was probably the biggest mistake (that she could control at least) of her campaign.

Was her Mitt Romney 47% moment. A Presidential candidate just cannot say something like that. And gave Trump and his surrogates an out whenever Hillary tried to play the moral high ground argument due to whatever Trump said.

Rather than a singular moment, the "deplorables" thing was kind of the icing on the cake of isolation. Hillary and her diehards created a weird ostracizing campaign - 3rd party voters are morons, Bernie supporters are delusional, and Trumpers are deplorable. Of course, these all came about in different ways, but a lot of the campaign revolved around "we're not them" rather than coming up with a strong identity of its own, and that's just a disastrous way to run a national all-inclusive campaign.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

What's there to address? You aren't interested in a discussion, since your posts demonstrate that you're not willing to change your mind on anything. But you accuse me and others of shutting down discussion, even though this thread is full of discussion. No, frankly, I'm finished discussing anything with you.



Are you going to address what he said or

What am I really supposed to say to that? I'm talking about accountability and he brings up Harambe.

I didn't accuse you of shutting down discussion unless you have in fact been telling minorities that they are overreacting to Trump's win and the upcoming upheavals. I haven't seen you you say anything like that.

If you think I'm lying I implore you to check out any of the Trump/LGBTQ related threads to see examples of what I'm talking about.

If you don't want to discuss further then fine.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Bullshit. Romney's comment was more harmful to his campaign because he targeted people that could have potentially voted for him. But the people she called "deplorables" were never going to vote for her to begin with. She didn't lose votes with that comment.
Especially since Trump repeatedly insulted every demographics in the US except straight white men, and he got away with it.

Let's stop pretending Hillary was too mean. If anything, she wasn't mean enough and perhaps could have used more fire in her rhetoric.

It was a completely stupid thing to say and I'm not sure why we need to spend any time rationalizing how it wasn't. It was a massive win for Trump when she said that and I don't know how anyone could spin it any other way. I'm not equating her to Trump or anything like that. And yeah sure, it's not fair she was held to the normal standards of a politician when he wasn't. But the situation was the way it was.

Attack the candidate not the voters. It was that sort of complete disconnect Hillary had with anyone who wasn't completely in the tank with her that cost her the election.

 

[Audioboxer]

I've literally been posting this concept ever since i was approved here.

You'll never win arguments by automagically assuming that the opposing argument is invalid.

It's a terrible strategy and it creates more enemies than swayed opinions. Ultimately the only thing it confirms to either side is that the other is unwilling to compromise or budge.


dunno if it's why the democrats lost, but im glad he articulates it better than i ever could

I'd give yourself more credit because he doesn't actually articulate it that well. It's a soundbite clip done by a comedian with dramatic effect. To try and parcel this whole complex topic into such a short clip isn't going to do it much good (nor is being dramatic, dropping f bombs and using some of the terms he does). Some parts of what he said are okay on face value but others need far more unpacking to reach a stage of discourse where people can get engaged. As is it just antagonises many (see replies in here), and ironically the message is largely about how the left is eating itself. Antagonising each other is one thing we are doing. To be liberal isn't just to stand against intolerance, but it's also to be tolerant of ideas and discourse in the ongoing battle of ideas. We aren't a perfect species and we need to talk about and hash out uncomfortable and difficult topics.

 

[wildfire]

Rather than a singular moment, the "deplorables" thing was kind of the icing on the cake of isolation. Hillary and her diehards created a weird ostracizing campaign - 3rd party voters are morons, Bernie supporters are delusional, and Trumpers are deplorable. Of course, these all came about in different ways, but a lot of the campaign revolved around "we're not them" rather than coming up with a strong identity of its own, and that's just a disastrous way to run a national all-inclusive campaign.

Calling them deplorable does turn people off but apologizing was worse. Clinton had to show people on the Dem side she cared to fight for them. She didn't show strength but weakness and took away her ability to explore further why she made that comment.

If she played of her explanation correctly those confused by the comment would respect her rationale even if they felt she was extreme. Trump and Howard Dean showed channeling anger can get votes. You can't do something that would make you look foolish and saying I'm sorry at that time was foolish.

 

[Vermillion]

So, what do you want? Are you talking forum specific?

And in general, yes. Sure, there are extreme, flat out racists that voted for Trump. But there are also people out there - good people - that did the same. Every time we go out of our way to say that "they're okay with racism" - or something else that gets cheers from people that already supported our side - we only push them further away.

Even the most terrible people on Earth often don't think they did anything wrong. So a normal person that doesn't have to stretch as much definitely won't accept messages attacking who they are as people. It also doesn't let them act as messengers within their own group, since "you're okay with sexism/you are sexist" is a difficult message to spread.

We won't convince them by calling them bigots or bigotry sympathizers. We need these people on our side next time, and going forward.

That doesn't mean don't protest or don't fight against bigotry. But when you're trying to get people on your side (in public and private), we have to consider what that means. This, of course, applies to me as well.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

This video is spot-on. The Left have nobody but themselves to blame for embracing the narrative and rhetoric they embraced the last few years, and unless they accept that and change, then we're getting Donnie 2: Electric Fence Boogaloo in 2020.

 

[timetokill]

Blaming the voters is the path of the loser. It's not constructive, it doesn't help anything. All it can do is make things worse.

Besides, Hillary is a career politician. It's literally her job to earn votes. So if she failed to do so, it's on her. It's on her campaign.

While Maslow's hierarchy might be crap, ultimately the well-being of one's own family is going to trump all. When one goes into the voting booth, intangible concepts like "shattering the glass ceiling" or "black lives mattering" comes far, far down the list after things like "feeding my family" and "paying rent" and "giving my kids a future."

You can't blame voters for being self-interested. That's human nature. If you don't accept that then you can hold Ls for the rest of your life.

 

[Kai Dracon]

I see that the Trump presidency has essentially just become a way for people to push ideas they already felt.

If you hate the dnc elite for not being fair to your candidate, then that's the reason trump got elected.

If you aren't a fan of sjw groups and the use of the phrase "white privilege", then that's the reason trump got elected.

If you think middle America has been unfairly left behind/demonised, then that's the reason trump got elected.

Please let's just acknowledge the truth, that a series of complex cultural, political and economic things led up to this event occurring. This isn't an "I told you so!" moment for anyone.

Basically this.

When there's an unexpected disaster people project their insecurities and frustrations onto it. Everyone wants their personal beef to be the leading cause of the tragedy. It feels empowering to finally tell off everyone else.

The irony is that all this is the kind of chaotic meltdown a lot of people were salivating for the day before the election, they were just hoping to see it from republicans and particularly the alt-right. (This being an internet-focused place and the alt-right kind of being this era's Internet Villians.) A whole damn subreddit was created just to showcase the festivities.

If there's any collective blame to be assigned to this, I think it comes down to just plain not taking Trump seriously in a general sense. Oh I means sure everyone was horrified and scared. But the people who tried to warn about brexit 2.0 do have a legitimate beef with how they were mocked. Most people really didn't take it seriously in the right ways and because of that, most people failed to try and analyse just how complex the factors feeding into Trump's wave of populism really were. I was a little too confident in Clinton as well, and I should have known better; I come from the parts of America Trump tapped into and saw these conditions develop first-hand over 30 years.

(But then, I guess if it wasn't for Comey at the 11th hour, Clinton still might have squeaked by in the needed states, so what hell anyway.)

 

[Juken]

It seems that Rust Belt economic anxiety cost the election.

Some people vote based on racism. Others will put their suffering first before others, and it's important to when possible include a message that addresses their suffering so they don't have to make a choice.

 

[StormKing]

What do people think about all the minorities that voted for Trump despite his racism? 8% of African Americans voted for him. 29% of Hispanics voted for him. If he's just about racism why did these people vote for him and not Hilary?

 

[Cheezus]

I just want liberals to stop being so mopey all the time about the democratic party. I agree that Clinton was not the right candidate, she doesn't excite people and she does have an air of elitism about her, but part of the problem is that not enough people with liberal views are actually active in their party. I can't tell you how many times I've encountered someone who I agreed with on almost every issue say something along the lines of "both sides are the same" or "we're fucked either way." There's a huge enthusiasm gap between republicans and liberals. Liberals seem content to let whatever happens happen in terms of government, but republicans see every gay marriage ruling and every new abortion clinic as a threat to their "traditional way of life." They are perpetually fired up.

What we have to do is make the next four years an example to point to, to say "SEE, this shit didn't happen under Obama, the democratic party are the good guys, you need to vote for them whenever you can." You have to get people enraged and fired up to go vote, and no, having "discussions" with die hard republicans and trying to "reach across the aisle" is not an efficient use of our time in any way. Start getting people who aren't engaged in politics engaged, make new loyal democratic voters, stop moping around and stop running away from your president during crucial midterms (looking at you 2010).

 

[Lime]

Blaming the voters is the path of the loser. It's not constructive, it doesn't help anything. All it can do is make things worse.

Besides, Hillary is a career politician. It's literally her job to earn votes. So if she failed to do so, it's on her. It's on her campaign.

While Maslow's hierarchy might be crap, ultimately the well-being of one's own family is going to trump all. When one goes into the voting booth, intangible concepts like "shattering the glass ceiling" or "black lives mattering" comes far, far down the list after things like "feeding my family" and "paying rent" and "giving my kids a future."

You can't blame voters for being self-interested. That's human nature. If you don't accept that then you can hold Ls for the rest of your life.

I agree that the onus is on activating the apathetic and disenfranchised, as there is not much to do to appease and persuade the racists and bigots that vote Trump, but "feeding my family/paying rent/giving my kids a future" does not necessarily hold true for Trump voters:

http://edition.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls