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[mightynine]

They'll be suing for wrongful death even after she dies. They've tied their whole existence to this thing.

Whoo-hoo! And if that's the case and they don't rule in the parent's favor, get ready for "President Bush, please save my money! This settlement is innocent and needs to be heard in front of the World Court!"

 

[AntoneM]

They'll be suing for wrongful death even after she dies. They've tied their whole existence to this thing.

:lol I can see it now...

The Republican Party: " Tort reform? Never heard of it. Terry Schiavo's death was a series of tragic and deliberate mistakes made by many doctors on many levels."

 

[Father_Brain]

http://billmon.org/archives/001769.html

Gov. Jeb Bush said today his social services agency may step in to have her feeding tube reinstated. In an extraordinary move, Bush said the Department of Children and Families has filed a legal motion alleging "30 detailed allegations of abuse, neglect or exploitation" that have occurred during Schiavo's stay at a Pinellas Park hospice.

Orlando Sentinel
Gov. Bush: DCF may intervene
March 23, 2005

_______________________________

His legal options quickly running out, Florida Governor Jeb Bush today asked a state court to classify Terri Schiavo as "abandoned property," allowing the state to seize control of the brain-damaged woman under the law of eminent domain. Lawyers called the maneuver "unusual."

Miami Herald
Bush Requests Condemnation Hearing on Schiavo
March 24, 2005

Rebuffed in his previous attempts to gain control of Terri Schiavo, Governor Bush today asked the Florida Supreme Court to define the brain-damaged patient as a "dangerous animal," giving Pinellas County animal control officers the right to take her into protective custody. Legal analysts called the move "a cheap political stunt."

Associated Press
Bush Wants Schiavo Taken to Rescue Shelter
March 25, 2005

In a last-ditch bid to save Terri Schiavo, lawyers for Governor Jeb Bush today asked the U.S. Supreme Court to declare the brain-damaged woman a "regulated public utility," saying this would authorize the Florida Power Commission to order the restoration of vital services, such as her feeding tube. Constitutional scholars called the petition "a outrageous abuse of the American legal system."

Washington Post
Fla. Gov Ask Supremes for Control of Schiavo
March 26, 2005

Three days after the death of Terri Schiavo, Florida Governor Jeb Bush asked the International Court of Justice at The Hague to declare the brain-damaged woman the "New Messiah," claiming the move would clear the way for Schiavo's resurrection and thousand-year reign on earth. Mental health experts said Bush "appears to be having a psychotic episode."

New York Times
In Controversial Legal Move,
Gov. Bush Seeks to Deify Schiavo
April 6, 2005

:lol :lol :lol

 

[ConfusingJazz]

This NYT article is awesome!

Mr. Bush called Dr. Cheshire a "renowned neurologist," but he is not widely known in the neurology or bioethics fields. Asked about him, Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, replied, "Who?"

About the examination:

"He observed the patient at her bedside and conducted an extensive review of her medical history but did not conduct an examination," the statement said.

Dr. Caplan said that was not good enough. "There is just no excuse for going in and making any pronouncement about the state that Terri Schiavo is in unless you're going to go in and do some form of technologically mediated scanning that would overturn what's on the record already," he said.

And from the credible Dr. Ronald Cranford:

He said there was no doubt that Ms. Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. "Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain," he said. "Her EEG is flat - flat. There's no electrical activity coming from her brain."

Oh, and oli, the reason that she won't start talking again, unlike like that half liquid girl you are talking about is because, Terri is a woman, not a girl. Young people have developing brains and actually can repair neurological damage or compensate for lost tissue, unlike a 30 year old. Granted, I think even if a kid had this much damage to her brain, she had no chance of surviving at all, but its something to think about.

 

[SickBoy]

Coming soon to Florida medical schools:

A MESSAGE FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA

This neurology textbook discusses persistent vegetative states, a medical theory some doctors present as an explanation for patients who appear not to respond to external stimulus.

No one knows exactly how our brains work, therefore any statement about them should be considered theory, not fact.

There are many unanswered questions surrounding persistent vegetative states, such as:

- Maybe the patient is just ignoring you.
- Perhaps the patient is sleeping with his or her eyes open.
- No electrical impulses in the brain? Again, that's just a theory about how the brain works.

As you can see, there are many alternative theories available about this issue. So study hard and keep an open mind!

 

[mightynine]

"Abandoned property"? "Dangerous animal"?

This is truly undermining the court's authority now. It's showing no respect for a branch of government, all for political reasons. I don't mind challenging a ruling, but you do it through the legal channels available. And once that is exhausted, it's time to move on.

God help us if Jeb ever runs for president.

 

[Fragamemnon]

That bit from billmon is fake, btw.

Jeb's pretty much at the point where all that can be done is to send troops/officers to save the woman, and throw the state of Florida into constitutional crisis.

Now, I couldn't think of a better-prepared state than Florida to deal with that-they have veteran people from their last such incident in 2000-but it would the political cost would be massive. Jeb doesn't control everything in Florida-especailly not the Supreme Court (my cousin's wife is an administrator there)-and it might wind up with him being removed from office.

 

[mightynine]

That bit from billmon is fake, btw.

Thank God.

I'm stuck running the final hour of Hannity's show, and he keeps harping how these judges have completely ignored Congress' law requiring this case to get a de novo review. I keep asking, what the hell was the first day? When there was two hours of testimony total from both sides in front of the first judge? And it was shot down? What was that?

 

[Fragamemnon]

Hannity is demonizing the judges involved there-both the ones in the Florida courts and the ones in the District/Appelate courts as well. Don't buy into the notion that the case wasn't considered de novo-they use that line to push the "Congress was right, judges are immoral" reasoning, so later they can start bandying their "activist judge" rhetoric.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Iyer's apparently batshit nuts.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503230001

On March 22, both CNN's Live From... and Fox News' Fox and Friends aired interviews with Carla Sauer Iyer -- a former nurse for Terri Schiavo who in 2003 submitted an affidavit with inflammatory accusations against Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo -- but failed to report questions about Iyer's credibility. Judge George W. Greer, the Florida circuit judge who has presided over several aspects of the Schiavo case, dismissed Iyer's allegations as "incredible" and noted in a September 17, 2003, order that not even Terri Schiavo's parents sought her testimony in the case.

In both appearances, Iyer was presented as a former nurse for Terri Schiavo. Fox introduced her as a "registered nurse in Florida" who "cared for Terri for more than a year between '95 and 1996." In addition, on-screen text described Iyer as "Carla Sauer Iyer; Cared for Terri Schiavo." On CNN, Iyer was introduced as a "nurse who says that she cared for Terri Schiavo [for] more than a year in the mid-1990s." As with Fox, CNN's on-screen text described Iyer as "Terri Schiavo's former nurse." Another on-screen text line presented on CNN stated that Iyer "testified about Terri Schiavo's physical state." However, according to Greer's September 2003 order, Schiavo's parents had not subpoenaed Iyer to testify.

In both a 2003 court affidavit (posted on the website operated by Terri's parents, Robert and Mary Schindler) and her March 22 cable appearances, Iyer maintained that Terri Schiavo was constantly "alert and oriented" while under her care, "saying such things as 'mommy,' and 'help me.' " She claimed that "Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death. Michael would say 'When is she going to die?' 'Has she died yet?' and 'When is that bitch gonna die?' " The affidavit also included her claims that Michael Schiavo expressed the desire to "accelerate" Terri's death, that when Terri was sick and looked as if she might die, "He [Michael] would blurt out 'I'm going to be rich,' " and the assertion that "t is my belief that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin" to intentionally make her sick. She claimed in her affidavit that "I ultimately called the police relative to this situation, and was terminated the next day."

Greer dismissed Iyer's charges, noting that they -- along with a similar affidavit given by Heidi Law, another nurse who formerly took care of Terri Schiavo -- were "incredible to say the least" and that "[n]either in the testimony nor in the medical records is there support for these affidavits as they purport to detail activities and responses of Terri Schiavo." From Greer's decision:

The remaining affidavits deal exclusively with events which allegedly occurred in the 1995-1997 time frame. The court feels constrained to discuss them. They are incredible to say the least. Ms. Iyer details what amounts to a 15-month cover-up which would include the staff of Palm Garden of Lago Convalescent Center, the Guardian of the Person, the Guardian ad Litem, the medical professionals, the police and, believe it or not, Mr. and Mrs. Schindler. Her affidavit clearly states that she would "call them (Mr. and Mrs. Schindler) anyway because I thought they should know about their daughter." The affidavit of Ms. Law speaks of Terri responding on a constant basis. Neither in the testimony nor in the medical records is there support for these affidavits as they purport to detail activities and responses of Terri Schiavo. It is impossible to believe that Mr. and Mrs. Schindler would not have subpoenaed Ms. Iyer for the January 2000 evidentiary hearing had she contacted them as her affidavit alleges.

Oh, and the "Nobel Peace[sic] Prize nominated" neurosurgeon they keep trotting out? A hack disciplined by the state medical board.

Fox News anchor Martha MacCallum identified Dr. William Hammesfahr, a Florida neurologist who claims he can help Terri Schiavo, as a "Nobel Prize-nominated neurologist," despite the fact that Hammesfahr was never actually nominated for a Nobel Prize.

Hammesfahr, who was disciplined in 2003 by the Florida Board of Medicine, testified during an October 2002 court hearing on the Schiavo case that his claim to be a Nobel nominee is based on a letter written to the "Nobel Committee for Physiology or Medicine" by Rep. Mike Bilirakis (R-FL) recommending Hammesfahr for a "Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine." But that award does not exist (the Nobel Assembly awards separate prizes in peace and medicine), and assuming Bilirakis intended to nominate Hammesfahr for the prize for medicine, as Hammesfahr claims, the nomination is meaningless because Bilirakis is not qualified to nominate anyone for that award.

According to an explanation of the nomination process posted on the Nobel Prize website, the Nobel Assembly sends out invitations to approximately 3,000 people who are allowed to propose candidates for the Nobel Prize in physiology or medicine. The 3,000 are "mainly members of the Nobel Assembly, previous prize winners, and a selection of professors at universities around the world" -- not U.S. congressmen. Furthermore, the Nobel Assembly's "Nomination and Selection" criteria make clear that "nformation about the nominations, investigations, and opinions concerning the award is kept secret for fifty years," so if Hammesfahr had received an actual nomination, he presumably would not know about it.

On March 21, Fox News host Sean Hannity referred to Hammesfahr as a Nobel Prize nominee eight times during a single hour-long edition of Hannity & Colmes.

[

 

[xsarien]

That bit from billmon is fake, btw.

Jeb's pretty much at the point where all that can be done is to send troops/officers to save the woman, and throw the state of Florida into constitutional crisis.

At which point, the only question left would be "Is Florida THAT pissed that they weren't the center of attention in November?"

 

[videogamer]

I heard the story, and not through word of mouth, of a girl with half a brain and nothing but fluid in the other half of her head. A girl who functions normally. It doesn't seem to me like fluid has anything to do with her being brain dead.

Let me add to xsarien and Confusing's posts: Oli, take a fricking intro to psych or neurobio class. Sure, half of the brain may be gone. But what half? Let me repeat what has been posted numerous times: different parts of the brain do different things.

I'm going to assume that this girl had one of her hemispheres removed, perhaps for epilepsy. In that case, there is still the other half of the brain that is similar in structure. Even though the two sides of the brains have different areas, they could have adapted. Furthermore, removing one side of a brain removes a portion in a discrete way. Oxygen deprivation isn't the same thing. And yeah, young humans have brains that are more plastic than adults.

 

[Vormund]

all these attention whores grandstanding outside the supreme court and the hospice turning this into a circus should be ashamed. THere are thousands of people (and CHILDREN) who are actually ALIVE and ABLE who are really starving to death in this country and all around the world, and here they finally get out and put up an effort for a fucking vegetable.

So true.

 

[NWO]

I don't see what good it does for those people to lie.

Probably the same reason I don't see what good it does for you to play a racist on another message board.

And here's a question to all you Republicans:

Would you use stem cells to save this lady if there was a way or would you stand by your "stem cells are evil" stance?

 

[Macam]

Judicial Branch +1.

 

[AntoneM]

something I noticed is that most headlines are something like... "Shiavo's Parents running out of options" I don't think I've ever seen an artice about this where the headline was something like... "Shiavo's hunsband's victory almost certain". It must be that liberal bias.

 

[Hitokage]

I'm going to assume that this girl had one of her hemispheres removed, perhaps for epilepsy. In that case, there is still the other half of the brain that is similar in structure. Even though the two sides of the brains have different areas, they could have adapted. Furthermore, removing one side of a brain removes a portion in a discrete way. Oxygen deprivation isn't the same thing. And yeah, young humans have brains that are more plastic than adults.

Furthermore, the part that's simply gone in this case is the middle where signals convene... and that area probably includes the main bridge between the two hemispheres. Of course, with the sheer size of the dead region it'd be no suprise if various parts of the same hemisphere have no pathways to each other at all anymore even if they were still living. In any event, all higher order functions are completely fucked. The only thing left is the brain stem and spinal cord for involuntary operations and reflexes, along with maybe the cerebellum for muscle control but I haven't heard one way or the other with that.

Note: I don't claim to have examined her or anything like that, but with even a basic understanding of the brain it isn't hard to see how a huge cavity in the middle coupled with widespread tissue death is far far more serious than the clean removal of a hemisphere or frontal lobe.

 

[mightynine]

Drinky, thank you for that link. It confirmed a lot of what myself and a collegue were thinking about these two particular players in this human drama...especially the "nominated" neurosurgeon.

 

[border]

Isn't it true that the Nobel Prize commitee doesn't even give out lists of nominees? Or if they do, it's like 40-60 years AFTER the year of nomination?

Most likely anybody that gets nominated would be dead before they even knew.

 

[mightynine]

I think the person everyone has been waiting to speak his thoughts on this case has broken his silence.

He hasn't been on the talking head TV shows. He hasn't been invited on the radio airwaves.

But he has an opinion on Terri's case. And it should be heard.

And that man is......

The Ultimate Warrior.

 

[909er]

Stem cells will never do anything for her?
No future medical breakthrough will ever do anything for her?

I say at least try to feed her something. If she can swallow on her own then let her parents feed her. Witholding food from somebody who can eat on their own IS illegal. It's starvation.

Actually, she CAN'T swallow on her own. That's why she's on a feeding tube.

 

[Dan]

Isn't it true that the Nobel Prize commitee doesn't even give out lists of nominees? Or if they do, it's like 40-60 years AFTER the year of nomination?

Most likely anybody that gets nominated would be dead before they even knew.

Correct. According to the article Drinky posted, it's 50 years after the nomination. This guy's just full of it.

 

[tt_deeb]

I'm not going to add anymore into the debate but have you guys heard all the comparisons between Schiavo and Jesus? It would be really ironic if she died today (Good Friday).

 

[SickBoy]

If she rose again, I would probably be an insta-convert...

 

[explodet]

This whole situation is simply insane.

And that's just counting the cable news coverage.

 

[Drensch]

Would you use stem cells to save this lady if there was a way or would you stand by your "stem cells are evil" stance?

I just heard some fundy brains explode.

 

[Incognito]

I just heard some fundy brains explode.

Oli already changed beats on that stance. The same Oli who'd chastise me at every oppurtunity over my support for stem cell research that could, in the future, yeild exciting results is now saying "Why can't we just inject her with stem cells -- isn't that what you liberals want?"

Pathetic.

 

[Hitokage]

Although if Olimario knew anything about the brain, he'd know that even if we did grow back tissue and even if we did completely restore the brain to full... it'd be blank.

 

[WedgeX]

Doesn't even need to be photoshopped.

I think I'm going to hell now.

 

[teiresias]

Sounds like the parents are getting desperate now. From the front page of CNN.com:

A state court judge said he would rule by noon Saturday on a motion to give Terri Schiavo minimal fluids until new information on the brain-damaged woman's responsiveness is examined. The motion contends her family heard her try to verbalize "I want to live."

"She managed to articulate the first two vowel sounds, first articulating AHHHHHHH and then virtually screaming WAAAAAAAA," the motion said.

The incident happened in the presence of Schiavo's sister, Suzanne Vitadamo, and an aunt, the motion said.

This is getting beyond pathetic. How convenient that it was only the family members that have been trying to get the feeding tube reinserted that were able to hear it.

Not to mention that they're just inserting what they hope she'd say at the very end, even if she was verbalizing, it could have been "Ahhhhhhh Waaaaaa to die."

 

[GaimeGuy]

Doesn't even need to be photoshopped.

I think I'm going to hell now.

so am I. :lol

 

[videogamer]

Fundie Watch 3/25/05

 

[teiresias]

I'm sure he'll grow up to be an upstanding christian man that beats up faggots in the name of the lord. Amen.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Man, this shit is scary. I mean, those people are scary

 

[theo]

don't these people have jobs?

 

[alejob]

I haven't read this thread.

Who the hell are this tards that want to kill this woman?

Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid!!!!

 

[videogamer]

I haven't read this thread.

Who the hell are this tards that want to kill this woman?

Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid!!!!

It's page 9 already. Perhaps it has been discussed. Hmm?

 

[alejob]

It's page 9 already. Perhaps it has been discussed. Hmm?

I was just implying that they were tards, I didn't really want to know who they are. This is so sad, thats why I don't like to read about it.

 

[fse]

Hell here I come!

 

[AntoneM]

I haven't read this thread.

Who the hell are this tards that want to kill this woman?

Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid!!!!

she's already dead, even with a feeding tube there's nothing left of the person called Terri Schiavo

 

[calder]

I was just implying that they were tards, I didn't really want to know who they are. This is so sad, thats why I don't like to read about it.

If you don't know a thing about what's being discussed and are actively trying to avoid learning even the barest facts of the situation then why the hell would you want to share your ignorant non-opinion with others?

 

[enjoy bell woods]

alejob is the sort of guy who makes you wish you were never born, and I love life.

 

[mightynine]

Doesn't even need to be photoshopped.

I think I'm going to hell now.

It took a second to click in my head. And I'll be joining you in hellfire.

 

[theo]

Man Tries to Steal Gun to 'Rescue Schiavo'

what the hell is wrong with these people?

 

[Dan]

Man Tries to Steal Gun to 'Rescue Schiavo'

Just what we need, crazy Christians stealing weapons to use to enact their god's will. These people scare the shit out of me.

 

[Vormund]

 

[Outdoor Miner]

Man Tries to Steal Gun to 'Rescue Schiavo'

what the hell is wrong with these people?

I'm sorry but that's fucking HILARIOUS. I can't help but laugh at the thought of some schmuck going on a personal crusade, all but lasting one day. You win at life sir! Hope God spares ya some lube while your in jail buddy, it's gonna be a rough ride.

:lol

 

[Drensch]

Yet these people fight tooth and fucking nail when it comes to letting one of " god's children" go home.

 

[Father_Brain]

www.deathocrats.org

 

[Mumbles]

Man Tries to Steal Gun to 'Rescue Schiavo'

what the hell is wrong with these people?

Wait, so he brought a knife to a gun fight?