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[VincentMatts]

Windows PC = open platform.

Console gaming = closed platform.
iPhone = closed platform.

What do you want more? The purpose of the device doesn't set if it is open or closed.
You link is laughable too... Apple is nowhere close to own the mobile devices market lol... they have like 30% or less of the market.... Samsung has own more the mobile device market than Apple.

Epic action has no base at all.

Epic went about it wrong, but they have a case. iOS is more like a PC than it is a gaming console. You can email, phone, games, texting, office, work, etc etc does that remind you of a console or a pc?

Thats what were going to find out in this case.

 

[ethomaz]

*Smacks my forehead

Your nonsensical points are really too weak to debate. Also really frustrating when you can't seem to comprehend what your reading. (not your fault if english isn't your first language) I'm done

If you really think to make the PlayStation and/or Nintedo system open to everybody there is no consequence in the gaming industry like I speculated then we have not to talk because you are being delusional about how business work.

Epic went about it wrong, but they have a case. iOS is more like a PC than it is a gaming console. You can email, phone, games, texting, office, work, etc etc does that remind you of a console or a pc?

Thats what were going to find out in this case.

The purpose like I said doesn't matter.

It is a closed platform just like Xbox, PlayStation or Nintendo devices.

We will see how the court devices.

 

[Sophist]

Apple will not go against a players base of 116 millions...right?

 

[VincentMatts]

If you really think to make the PlayStation and/or Nintedo system open to everybody there is no consequence in the gaming industry like I speculated then we have not to talk because you are being delusional about how business work.


The purpose like I said doesn't matter.

It is a closed platform just like Xbox, PlayStation or Nintendo devices.

Thats your opinion. The courts will decide what it actually is.

 

[ethomaz]

Thats your opinion. The courts will decide what it actually is.

Yes.

So if the court devices like I said then? I'm not following your logic here.

 

[bohrdom]

extremely notable programmers tweeting pretty much the exact words "Epic are heroes!"

So what? Programmers don't necessarily know what's good business/best for customers. Allowing external marketplaces will make your system less secure.

I should be able to install whatever I want on my iPhone at this point since both iOS and Android are general purpose computing machines that are perhaps even more integral to every day lives for most of the planet than "computers" ever were. If Google actually starts championing this feature as part of Android 12 it could force some hands.

I agree that Google should do this and they did. It failed. Google had sideloading enabled and it was incredibly unpopular. Rather than having government get involved in this let the free market hash it out.

 

[VincentMatts]

Yes.

So if the court devices like I said then? I'm not following your logic here.

Im not repeating myself, so go re-read what i typed if you still dont understand.

 

[Edgelord79]

Epic went about it wrong, but they have a case. iOS is more like a PC than it is a gaming console. You can email, phone, games, texting, office, work, etc etc does that remind you of a console or a pc?

Thats what were going to find out in this case.

I agree however I just don't think this is the judge to see it in this light. Epic will lose this case. What this could do though is increase scrutiny on "walled gardens" and the way they stifle competition.

 

[Sakura]

This is just not necessarily true, and most programmers don't agree with this. I assume you are not in the industry.

Ok answer this. Does Microsoft have the right to lock down Windows and not allow ANY installs of software outside of the Windows store? No direct downloads, no steam, no nothing? Does Apple have the right to lock down MacOS so that ALL software installs have to go through the Mac App Store? Simple yes or no on both of these.

Do you know why Microsoft was nailed by the justice department in the late 90s?

Microsoft does not make computers, and Microsoft has a monopoly.
Completely different situation.
If Apple had a monopoly on the smartphone market, and were being anti-competitive, then there would be a discussion to be had, and they would face penalties. But they aren't, which is why Epic isn't getting what they want.

 

[SlicedBread3]

Do you think Microsoft has a right to lock down Windows?

Bit more complicated because it's already been sold to people as an open platform.

However if Microsoft wanted to create a new locked down OS (hypothetically lets call it "walls" or something) then yeah I think they should have the right to do that.

 

[Edgelord79]

Microsoft does not make computers...

Yes they do. Surface laptops are fairly common where I am.

 

[VincentMatts]

I agree however I just don't think this is the judge to see it in this light. Epic will lose this case. What this could do though is increase scrutiny on "walled gardens" and the way they stifle competition.

Maybe yeah. But ultimately, this is the way I see it: If its a multi-purpose device, then it has to be open. Or at least "more open".

I can write up my resume on MS Word on my PC or my iPhone if I wanted to. I can also play games on either, I can email work on either, etc etc. That to me, is PC-like.

And what epic are arguing, is between iPhone and android who both act very similarly, it is kind of like a monopoly. There are no other options or freedom do do your own thing like on Windows. We'll see what happens.

But it didnt help them that they really seemed to do it on purpose with that vid and then the documents hours later. They went about it all wrong.

 

[Piku_Ringo]

Tim sweety needs to go on the Twitters and go all in on this judge

 

[sixamp]

In the end the platform belongs to apple and they can enforce their policies as they see fit. Epic is in the wrong. If anyone believes what epic is doing is to benefit other devs or consumers you are braindead .

 

[Edgelord79]

But it didnt help them that they really seems to do it on purpose with that vid and the documents hours later. They went about it all wrong.

Bonehead move of epic proportions.

 

[SlicedBread3]

Epic went about it wrong, but they have a case. iOS is more like a PC than it is a gaming console. You can email, phone, games, texting, office, work, etc etc does that remind you of a console or a pc?

Thats what were going to find out in this case.

What's stopping me from doing most of that on my Switch despite the fact the software is walled off?

 

[Dr Bass]

Microsoft does not make computers, and Microsoft has a monopoly.
Completely different situation.
If Apple had a monopoly on the smartphone market, and were being anti-competitive, then there would be a discussion to be had, and they would face penalties. But they aren't, which is why Epic isn't getting what they want.

Uhhhh ...

Microsoft Surface PCs, Computers, Laptops, 2-in-1s, Dual-Screen & All-in-Ones | Microsoft Surface

Discover a range of Microsoft Surface devices built for all the ways you create, work, play and connect. Unleash your creativity with Microsoft Surface laptops, dual screens, 2-in-1 PCs and All-in-One devices.

www.microsoft.com

Also ...

1 billion active Win 10 computers

1.5 billion Apple devices, 1 billion of those iPhones. The number is surely higher now since this was beginning of the year and Apple continues to experience sales growth on a quarterly basis.

Apple hits 1.5 billion active devices with ~80% of recent iPhones and iPads running iOS 13 - 9to5Mac

Commenting on Apple’s record-breaking 2020 Q1 performance, CEO Tim Cook shared an update on how many active devices are now...

9to5mac.com

So, Microsoft does make computers. And you claim they have a monopoly.

There are more personal computing devices in use from Apple than Microsoft. But you claim they do not have a monopoly. Would you at least admit they are part of an oligopoly?

And yes, Apple absolutely DOES engage in anti-competitive behavior with their app store. It's the very definition at that scale. No one has the option to compete. Apple even admitted in their legal brief that opening up the App Store to other kinds of payments would hurt them financially. I.E., Apple's anti-competitive behavior ensures higher profits.

 

[johntown]

Karma Epic hahahaha

 

[Sakura]

Yes they do. Surface laptops are fairly common where I am.

Yes recently they started selling laptops as well, but that's not the point. The primary thing they are selling you is the OS, Windows.
Apple isn't selling iOS, they are selling you hardware, that just so happens to use their proprietary OS. It's part of the package. It's like how Sony and Microsoft sell the PS4 and Xbox One, both with their own OS, and both of which are closed platforms. You aren't buying the PS5 for the Sony OS, you are buying it because it is the PS5.
But in any case, the big issue here is whether something is a monopoly and anti-competitive.
A computer, is absolutely useless without an OS. So what OS are you going to use if you buy a PC? 99% of people who buy a PC, are going to be putting Windows on it, because they don't really have much choice. The hardware is useless without the software, and Microsoft has a monopoly on the software. This is why Microsoft isn't really allowed to be anticompetitive with Windows, they are a monopoly, the consumer doesn't have much choice in the matter, so decicions that could hurt the consumer/be anti-competitive are generally not allowed.
People comparing iPhone to PCs doesn't really make any sense, because Apple does not have a monopoly, and the 30% tax is not anti-competitive. Every body has a level playing field (they are all paying the same "tax") and the competition charge the same thing.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

Rooting for what is right.

You have options like Android that are open.

Trying to make a closed system to open is really a bullshit argument... you buy in a closed system because it advantages over the open system.

For exemple in gaming industry if you make the PlayStation, Nintendo, etc open system it become just a PC.

Yup. It’s one thing if there are no alternatives but iOS isnt the market share leader, Android is. If they’re forced to open up just because they have a platform, why on earth would anyone get into this industry at all? Do all the hard work and then get more work to do that directly allows others to bypass your ability to get compensated. Talk about entitled.

 

[ethomaz]

Yup. It’s one thing if there are no alternatives but iOS isnt the market share leader, Android is. If they’re forced to open up just because they have a platform, why on earth would anyone get into this industry at all? Do all the hard work and then get more work to do that directly allows others to bypass your ability to get compensated. Talk about entitled.

That is something the mobile industry needs imo.
MS tried with Lumia but for lack of focus failed even when the OS (even in a early stage) was promissing.

We need a new closed mobile platform as option.

 

[Edgelord79]

Every body has a level playing field (they are all paying the same "tax") and the competition charge the same thing.

Except they don't. Amazon got out of paying anything.

 

[Sakura]

Uhhhh ...

Microsoft Surface PCs, Computers, Laptops, 2-in-1s, Dual-Screen & All-in-Ones | Microsoft Surface

Discover a range of Microsoft Surface devices built for all the ways you create, work, play and connect. Unleash your creativity with Microsoft Surface laptops, dual screens, 2-in-1 PCs and All-in-One devices.

www.microsoft.com

Also ...

1 billion active Win 10 computers

1.5 billion Apple devices, 1 billion of those iPhones. The number is surely higher now since this was beginning of the year and Apple continues to experience sales growth on a quarterly basis.

Apple hits 1.5 billion active devices with ~80% of recent iPhones and iPads running iOS 13 - 9to5Mac

Commenting on Apple’s record-breaking 2020 Q1 performance, CEO Tim Cook shared an update on how many active devices are now...

9to5mac.com

So, Microsoft does make computers. And you claim they have a monopoly.

There are more personal computing devices in use from Apple than Microsoft. But you claim they do not have a monopoly. Would you at least admit they are part of an oligopoly?

And yes, Apple absolutely DOES engage in anti-competitive behavior with their app store. It's the very definition at that scale. No one has the option to compete. Apple even admitted in their legal brief that opening up the App Store to other kinds of payments would hurt them financially. I.E., Apple's anti-competitive behavior ensures higher profits.

Number of devices doesn't matter, market share does.
I could sell 100 cars a year. But if I am the only one making and selling cars, then I have a monopoly on that market. And THEN if I take actions to prevent other companies from getting into the automobile market, then I am being anti-competitive.
I could also sell 1 billion cars a year, but if the car market is 3 billion, and company b sells 1 billion cars, and company c sells 1 billion cars, then I no longer have a monopoly, even though the numbers are higher. The whole idea, is that company a, b, and c are competing to sell cars, because no one company controls the market. Competition is good for the consumer.
Apple doesn't have a monopoly on the smartphone market. There is competition. Consumers can choose between an iPhone, or an Android, or some other less popular device. The smartphones are competing. Because Apple doesn't have a monopoly, it is harder for them to be found "anti-competitive", especially when their competition charges the same fee, and so does the Sony store, and Steam, and Xbox, etc.
Epic knows this, it's why they don't actually say Apple has a monopoly on the smartphone market, and instead are trying to make the play that they have a monopoly on their own iOS App Store, which, well, of course they do. Epic has a monopoly on their Epic store as well.

Except they don't. Amazon got out of paying anything.

The charge is for digital goods sold through the store. It is in the terms. A TV you buy on Amazon isn't a digital good. It's also why you can't buy books through the Amazon kindle app, and have to actually buy them from Amazon's site.
Epic can do this too, by the way. You can go on your PC, go to Epic's site, and buy Vbucks right from them directly, and use them on iOS (well, before they got removed). The problem is Epic wanted to have in-app purchases bypass Apple as well.

 

[renzolama]

It's weird, I've despised Apple as a company for so, so long but then Tim Sweeney shows up in the public eye within the last year or two and somehow I hate him and by extension Epic even more.

I'm so confused about where to direct my hate.

 

[Dural]

Epic went about it wrong, but they have a case. iOS is more like a PC than it is a gaming console. You can email, phone, games, texting, office, work, etc etc does that remind you of a console or a pc?

Thats what were going to find out in this case.

What does being like a PC have to do with being a closed or open platform? Are you saying that a PC is required to be an open platform? If I wanted to create my own OS and put it on my own hardware and make it a closed platform what exactly is keeping me from doing it? Apple built their hardware and put their OS on it, who is Epic to tell them what to do with their OS and hardware?

Ok, so, same question to you.

Can Microsoft completely lock down Windows? Can Apple completely lock down MacOS?

They've already made a completely locked down Windows, Windows 10 S.

 

[XOMTOR]

No, your answer was completely nonsense. You need to understand the industry, which I happen to be in.

MS does not create "proprietary hardware" that is locked down. The Surface products are built on standard components and can install software from anywhere.

And people saying iOS isn't a general purpose OS, yeah it completely is.

Saying things like "PC is open so it cant be locked down" is relying on an axiomatic argument but also doesn't make sense. The door is open so it can't be closed. It's arguing that it has to be some way because of the current state it's in even though things can easily change.

So, what if Microsoft says "Windows is now closed for all new computers and licenses. Installs only allowed from the Windows Store." What if they do that? What do you think the courts would do?

Again, no it wouldn't. Game consoles are toys. "Phones" are now general purpose computers. You are going to be able to install your iOS apps on your Mac by the end of the year! iPads can take keyboards, mice and hook up to monitors. I mean wtf, how much more obvious does this need to get?

So, how many devices running iOS do you know of that aren't made by Apple? Seriously, build a device and then contact Apple and tell them you want to license iOS to run on it.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Somewhere, Google is laughing.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

Open question to people thinking Apple is right.

Let's do a little mild extrapolation.

iOS and Android continue to grow and basically dominate the global computing landscape. Everyone does their computing on their phone, casting to a monitor and keyboard/mouse when needing to do more in depth work. Windows disappears as a result of it being a non-player in the mobile landscape. Everything is Android/iOS on the personal side and linux on the server side.

Should iOS and Android remain, essentially, locked down software wise (I realize this seems to be changing for Android already), with individual freedom to install on your own personal device still not allowed.

Then someone else would come up with a competing option.

It's their system that they developed. If you don't like it don't use it/.

 

[XOMTOR]

Open question to people thinking Apple is right.

Let's do a little mild extrapolation.

iOS and Android continue to grow and basically dominate the global computing landscape. Everyone does their computing on their phone, casting to a monitor and keyboard/mouse when needing to do more in depth work. Windows disappears as a result of it being a non-player in the mobile landscape. Everything is Android/iOS on the personal side and linux on the server side.

Should iOS and Android remain, essentially, locked down software wise (I realize this seems to be changing for Android already), with individual freedom to install on your own personal device still not allowed.

Now we're talking hypotheticals but okay, let's go there. Obviously, each country has its own consumer protection laws but even if Apple and Google become the only 2 players, that's a duopoly so not sure what the USA has for laws against that. I'm Canadian so I'd say our government would be all for it (sorta kidding). In all honesty, if your scenario comes to pass, that will certainly change things but as of now, Apple is what...15% of the mobile phone market. They gotta long way to go before anti-monopolistic laws come in to play I'd wager.

 

[ethomaz]

Open question to people thinking Apple is right.

Let's do a little mild extrapolation.

iOS and Android continue to grow and basically dominate the global computing landscape. Everyone does their computing on their phone, casting to a monitor and keyboard/mouse when needing to do more in depth work. Windows disappears as a result of it being a non-player in the mobile landscape. Everything is Android/iOS on the personal side and linux on the server side.

Should iOS and Android remain, essentially, locked down software wise (I realize this seems to be changing for Android already), with individual freedom to install on your own personal device still not allowed.

iOS yes should stay closed.
Android was never closed... it is open since beginning like PC.

You have two big players (Android even bigger) with two different options to consumers... closed ecosystem and open ecosystem... you can choose what better fits you.

But I wish to have a new played... a new closed ecosystem player like MS tried with Lumia + Windows Phone.

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

Apple will not go against a players base of 116 millions...right?

Timmy really screwed the pooch on this one. If the Trump admin actually does begin to crack down on them, this could be a very difficult time for Epic.

 

[Allnamestakenlol]

Ha ha, Epic. Ha ha.

 

[Silent Viper]

Yo that judge knows about gaming n all. Very knowledgeable judge xP

 

[Plague Doctor]

So happy cause fuck Epic... (seriously, Epic getting brought down a peg brings a smile to my face)

but umm..yay Apple?

This is some Godzilla vs. Other Monster fuck where we are still fucked.

 

[sn0man]

The vast majority of the software engineering community. People who believe you should be able to install whatever you want on the computers that you own.

Google has already announced that Android 12 is going to focus on making it easier to use third party app stores. And of course "side-loading" (funny that we don't just use the standard english of "downloading software" to describe this) is possible on Android. Hopefully a change is coming. If this eventually forced Apple into doing the same thing there would be NO Epic lawsuit and all would be fine.

Google says Android 12 will make using third-party app stores easier

We’ll hear more about the changes later.

www.theverge.com

I like Apple, appreciate the heavy-handed approach to making iOS run decently on a tiny smartphone but....

...you deserve more credit than you are getting here. I totally agree that platforms should allow for the downloading of software, and that the messaging has been altered. In 2005 Microsoft started the closed online electronic software platform and Apple, Sony, Google, et. al. were quite happy to jump into it.

If it were up to me, there would be a developer mode that would permit install from other sources with a lot of heavy-handed scary language surrounding it. I value not having to fix my parents smartphones and tablets because it is so locked down, but I also value allowing power users the ability to install whatever they prefer.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

I think game consoles are different from cellphone. Who is considered essential or isnt.

 

[godhandiscen]

I don't know why people are rooting for apple. Imagine being able to download retro pi or xcloud on an iphone. I would actually buy one.

Epic will lose for sure, but we shouldn't be rooting for that to happen.

If EPIC wins all closed platforms will be forced to admit third party stores. Imagine owning a PlayStation and it having 10+ different game stores like on PC, each one with their own exclusives and issues; paying more for the hardware since the store can’t subsidize it. Having to create a logging for each different store, being uncertain if your purchased games will carry over, receiving an update later than the rest because your store didn’t get it, having your information exposed to pirates because one of the stores you purchased from got hacked. It would be a shitshow.

 

[Edgelord79]

I wouldb

If EPIC wins all closed platforms will be forced to admit third party stores. Imagine owning a PlayStation and it having 10+ different game stores like on PC, each one with their own exclusives and issues; paying more for the hardware since the store can’t subsidize it. Having to create a logging for each different store, being uncertain if your purchased games will carry over, receiving an update later than the rest because your store didn’t get it, having your information exposed to pirates because one of the stores you purchased from got hacked. It would be a shitshow.

Yes because Sony really curates their store something fierce doesn't it (they already allow just about anything on there)?

Sony never ever has been compromised either right?

Choice of stores is bad for customers right?

 

[godhandiscen]

I wouldb

Yes because Sony really curates their store something fierce doesn't it (they already allow just about anything on there)?

Sony never ever has been compromised either right?

Choice of stores is bad for customers right?

There are options of open platforms already if you want them, PC, Android, OSX. I don’t understand why we need to fuck up with the option of having closed platform ecosystems in the name of “customer choice” just so that big names like Tencent, Amazon, etc, get to profit off the hardware other companies have built.

 

[Birgitte2004-2]

Why do some people demand that we remove options, in the name of giving us other different options we already have elsewhere? If you don't like Apple being locked down, go to a device that isn't. Don't take away my ability to choose a locked down device.

I would dread the tech support I'd have to do to help my Aunt if her iPhone wasn't locked down, I already groan everytime I hear "My PC is doing something weird".

 

[Edgelord79]

There are options of open platforms already if you want them, PC, Android, OSX. I don’t understand why we need to fuck up with the option of having closed platform ecosystems in the name of “customer choice” just so that big names like Tencent, Amazon, etc, get to profit off the hardware other companies have built.

Just because those are the big names doesn't mean that they will be the only ones benefiting from it.

Also why are you quoting customer choice as being something that is to be ridiculed or mocked? Is this where we are now?

 

[LavitzSlambert]

That is something the mobile industry needs imo.
MS tried with Lumia but for lack of focus failed even when the OS (even in a early stage) was promissing.

We need a new closed mobile platform as option.

That’s great in theory but is risky in practice. There is a lot of rhetoric that “competition is good for consumers!” with the idea that the more competition, the better the results. I think there is a point where additional competition is wasteful redundancy and results in products that only work in their own little bubble.

I think 3 big players seems to be a good number. There is always the risk of going a little too far and everyone having their own closed ecosystems, like the streaming wars are trending towards. Two closed ecosystems that are smaller, and one big open one seems to work well. It maintains the benefits of standardization but you aren’t locked in one place either.

 

[godhandiscen]

Just because those are the big names doesn't mean that they will be the only ones benefiting from it.

Also why are you quoting customer choice as being something that is to be ridiculed or mocked? Is this where we are now?

Because it is also the choice of customers to go after simple walled garden systems. If EPIC wins a single platform type, open, will be imposed across the board.

 

[Edgelord79]

Because it is also the choice of customers to go after simple walled garden systems. If EPIC wins a single platform type, open, will be imposed across the board.

So your logic is that by allowing choice, you remove choice?

 

[A.Romero]

I'm surprised people even debate this.

iOS is not comparable to PC because for starters you could install any OS in the computer leaving Microsoft out of the equation. That is simply not possible with iOS and it shouldn't be.

It is because of Apple that an App Store even exists. There is no financial incentive for Apple to open up. Why would they do it? It might even be better for them to stop producing the devices if they lose the revenue from the store.

Come on people, at least try to understand how business models work. Apple doesn't owe anyone anything.

And this is coming from someone who has never spent a penny in Apple's ecosystem... Precisely because I see zero benefit from jumping into their products. If you got an iOS device then you accepted this is the way they work. If you don't like it, Google will welcome you with open arms.

Also: Fuck you Sweeney! Maybe spend some time improving your products instead of trying to take down the competition through media tactics and the legal system.

 

[MarkMe2525]

.

 

[MarkMe2525]

If EPIC wins all closed platforms will be forced to admit third party stores. Imagine owning a PlayStation and it having 10+ different game stores like on PC, each one with their own exclusives and issues; paying more for the hardware since the store can’t subsidize it. Having to create a logging for each different store, being uncertain if your purchased games will carry over, receiving an update later than the rest because your store didn’t get it, having your information exposed to pirates because one of the stores you purchased from got hacked. It would be a shitshow.

Yeah that would be terrible if Sony ever allowed their customers credit card information to get exposed... Wait......

I don't see how more options is bad. You've presented a lot of hypothetical what ifs while insinuating that people shouldn't be allowed to make their own decisions.

I have no doubt that in this hypothetical situation that there would be certain downsides, but I think there are more upsides when choice is offered. I would love to be able to run some Homebrew on my future PS5 and Series X.

 

[bitbydeath]

If Epic really cared then their own walled garden wouldn’t exist or at the very least they wouldn’t be earning money from third party sales.

 

[Spukc]

Fuck that judge tho

 

[chonga]

A lot of people seem to miss an important nuance in this issue.

iOS devices are walled, yes. Apple makes the devices and you can easily argue Apple then therefore set the rules. People have equated it to going into a shop and saying 'I'd like to buy this please' and demanding they accept some different currency or payment method to what the store accepts and then throwing a fit when they say no.

That is not the right analogy.

In this scenario Apple is not the shop. You are not buying Fortnite items from Apple, you are buying them from Epic, or you are buying your subscription from Spotify etc etc.

So in that sense if you wanted an analogy you could liken Apple's position to that of a street market or shopping mall owner, and Epic, Spotify and all the others upset at Apple are the people running the stalls or the shops in that market/mall.

You would never expect the owner of a mall to say to it's shops you must accept only our payment methods and you cannot price your products differently to cover our additional costs and you can't tell people they can pay in other ways outside of the mall and therefore ban click and collect models.

There's no rationale for that.

There is rationale for taking a percentage as commission for being the mall owner and attracting customers and maintaining the place. So a fee is totally justified - but not the price fixing and payment method issues mentioned before. Those restrictions are unequivocally wrong and, buzzword of the year, anti-consumer.