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[Not Spaceghost]

The way it worked was:

Base pay until the signature exceeded the base payout. Is actually a rather shitty way to do it.

If under the base pay amount all the signature revenue goes to Valve. The casters don't see anything.

If the signature is above it the base pay amount goes back into Valve's pocket and it's the community that basically paid for them only.

It's so incredibly greedy.

That's fucking awful, I guess you could argue that it's supposed to incentive each caster to try their heart out but instead all it does is exactly what another poster here said, turn it into a huge popularity contest where the meme spouting casters are the ones who are selling the most signatures.

Now I'm assuming that this means that the signature pool has to reach a certain level where all the casters can be paid from it, if that's the case then it could get casters mad at each other for not pandering enough for signatures, and do bullshit where basically the casters that are heavy on analysis which many people don't watch end up trying to be funny all the time or something incredibly forced and no one watches them anyways only now the viewers who like analysis have absolutely no one to watch.

All this so valve can get out of paying them.

 

[Tovarisc]

Pay the people that you hire, Valve. Especially the on air talent that represents the game, and especially with the kind of money they rake in with Compendium sales. We're not talking about a community operation here. Even if they went back on it someone over there thought this was a good idea to save some money - twice - and that's pretty shitty.

And twice "hired" talent though it's cool idea to work for basically free.

There is nonsense at both sides that I have hard time finding any logic in.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

us gamers first everytime.

Valve Reality Distortion Field™ in full effect.

This may have been the case when they were trying to establish Steam, everyone hated it at first, but it really isn't the case now.

 

[Jadax]

To be fair, Gabe went out of control posting that James was an ass on a community forum. It was just an escalation of the events, and now he and his company will pay the price. If he's smart he won't respond anymore and just take the hit.

What price? Are you new to gaming?

Blizz does this all the time, and finally Valve is putting their foot down on the circus-show that this has become.

Gaben has all the right to say whatever he wants, and clearly James has done a lot of bad shit to get a personal response from Gaben (and one so bluntly stating he hasn't been doing well for a while now in their eyes).

I'm not going to stop playing dota2 or using Steam just because some caster (and a bad one at that) got fired. None of my other friends will stop either.

 

[Kyuur]

The way it worked was:

Base pay until the signature exceeded the base payout. Is actually a rather shitty way to do it.

If under the base pay amount all the signature revenue goes to Valve. The casters don't see anything.

If the signature is above it the base pay amount goes back into Valve's pocket and it's the community that basically paid for them only.

It's so incredibly greedy.

Seems fine to me. The staff gets paid, and possibly get paid more.

The community pays for these people by playing the game and putting money in Valve's pocket in the first place.

 

[ashecitism]

Seems fine to me. The staff gets paid, and possibly get paid more.

The community pays for these caster's by playing the game and putting money in Valve's pocket in the first place.

Except the original plan was they wouldn't get a base salary, just rely on signature sales.

 

[Jebusman]

Seems fine to me. The staff gets paid, and possibly get paid more.

The community pays for these caster's by playing the game and putting money in Valve's pocket in the first place.

Here's the thing.

Originally, there was no base pay plan. That was only after they all fought for it.

Valve's original plan was that you were ONLY getting paid with the signature sales.

If I only sold 10 signatures, and only receive $0.50 per sig, I would make $5. That's it.

It's hilarious that Valve would even consider that a fair idea.

 

[Pureauthor]

What price? Are you new to gaming?

Blizz does this all the time, and finally Valve is putting their foot down on the circus-show that this has become.

Gaben has all the right to say whatever he wants, and clearly James has done a lot of bad shit to get a personal response from Gaben (and one so bluntly stating he hasn't been doing well for a while now in their eyes).

I'm not going to stop playing dota2 or using Steam just because some caster (and a bad one at that) got fired. None of my other friends will stop either.

This thread isn't about a caster being fired. It's about Valve having tried to have people working at Valve events paid in fucking signature sales.

Seems fine to me. The staff gets paid, and possibly get paid more.

The community pays for these people by playing the game and putting money in Valve's pocket in the first place.

In addition to the above, I repeat that Valve at no point ever stated that sales had to exceed a 'base pay' amount before the actual people would see it. People buying signatures at TI4 did so under the impression that every sale would put some money in the people's pockets.

 

[collige]

Can't say I'm surprised that they would do something like that, but it's still disappointing. Valve needs to stop being so fucking cheap about everything. Has anyone come out and said if it the payment for casting talent used the same plan at TI5?

 

[Horsemama1956]

I don't like how he refers to viewers/fans as customers.

Aren't fans of the game basically funding these big prize money tournaments instead of sponsers by buying tickets and the other shit they were shilling?

 

[nilbog21]

This thread isn't about a caster being fired. It's about Valve having tried to have people working at Valve events paid in fucking signature sales.



In addition to the above, I repeat that Valve at no point ever stated that sales had to exceed a 'base pay' amount before the actual people would see it. People buying signatures at TI4 did so under the impression that every sale would put some money in the people's pockets.

but they changed it once it was brought up? now its an incentive to work for more money ?

 

[Spirited]

Except the original plan was they wouldn't get a base salary, just rely on signature sales.

Yep, casters really shouldn't be payed by tipping (as an european I don't even understand how this can go on in any industry) and absoluetly not when Valve never said that it would be their casters/host/analysts only source of income on the event.

(Well they changed after to them having a base salary but that was during the event(? sounded like that from his write-up) so that's just scummy)

 

[Pureauthor]

but they changed it once it was brought up? now its an incentive to work for more money ?

Under the old plan, a dude sells, let's say $100 dollars worth of signatures. Valve will take a cut (75% is the standard, dunno if it still applies here) and the dude gets, I dunno, let's go with $50. That's it. That's his 'pay.'

Under the new plan, the dude gets $10K base. Good. But let's say his still sells $100 of signatures. Valve now takes the entire $100 cut and the dude sees none of it. And the audience didn't know this because Valve said, with no caveats, that sales of signatures will provide money to the dude.

Basically they lied.

 

[Servbot24]

I don't like how he refers to viewers/fans as customers.

You should accept the fact that people make games and services because they need money. It's totally fine.

 

[Kyuur]

Here's the thing.

Originally, there was no base pay plan. That was only after they all fought for it.

Valve's original plan was that you were ONLY getting paid with the signature sales.

If I only sold 10 signatures, and only receive $0.50 per sig, I would make $5. That's it.

It's hilarious that Valve would even consider that a fair idea.

Have you ever heard of working for commission? It's an incredibly common thing.

If you have a problem with how this might change staff's performance that is completely valid. But unfair? Hardly.

This thread isn't about a caster being fired. It's about Valve having tried to have people working at Valve events paid in fucking signature sales.

In addition to the above, I repeat that Valve at no point ever stated that sales had to exceed a 'base pay' amount before the actual people would see it. People buying signatures at TI4 did so under the impression that every sale would put some money in the people's pockets.

This might warrant some kind of outrage if you were donating to a charity and the money was being misused or something. You're buying something from a company, for all you know the people you're trying to support could be seeing 0.001% of profits.

Granted I'm unfamiliar with this product, so many Valve gave everyone a very explicit explanation of the contract so they could make an informed buying decision. But I doubt it.

 

[Jebusman]

Have you ever heard of working for commission? It's an incredibly common thing.

They weren't trying to hawk you a computer at Best Buy.

They were hosting a fucking event, on camera, for multiple days at a time.

In what realm would that ever be "commission" work.

Hell this isn't that far off from the waiter/waitress setup in a lot of places, where you are expected to make tips to pay your actual base salary, and you only get to keep tips that go above that amount.

We shit on that practice, why defend it here?

 

[Pureauthor]

Have you ever heard of working for commission? It's an incredibly common thing.

If you have a problem with how this might change staff's performance that is completely valid. But unfair? Hardly.

They are, in fact, working for commision.

Getting hired by Valve to go on stage and speak/present is the job. They already got the job. Then, they get paid for the job. Not in signature sales, which have nothing to do with the job.

 

[Wok]

Be careful, guys. The drama is still fresh.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Is getting paid with comissions a rare thing or something? I thought is pretty common.

 

[Kyuur]

They are, in fact, working for commision.

Getting hired by Valve to go on stage and speak/present is the job. They already got the job. Then, they get paid for the job. Not in signature sales, which have nothing to do with the job.

They weren't trying to hawk you a computer at Best Buy.

They were hosting a fucking event, on camera, for multiple days at a time.

In what realm would that ever be "commission" work.

Part of their job is now to sell you these signatures. Like I said, you can disagree with how that might change the presentation, but nothing about the contract screams unfair to me.

 

[Pagusas]

Is getting paid with comissions a rare thing or something? I thought is pretty common.

Not common in this space, especially with something as low value as sigs. But then again we have to recognize this is a fledgling business where everyone is still
Trying to figure it out. Most of the esport talent would be completely worthless in other industries, not worth the paper their names are written on. They are growing with the industry and learning pay scales and there own worth too. Right now, like other sports in the early days, the profits are all in the pockets of the major players and they will try everything they can to keep them there.

 

[ashecitism]

Be careful, guys. The drama is still fresh.

This just gets better and better. Though James never specified when they made Valve change their plans, I got the impression it was during TI, while Purge says by late June they were guaranteed a base salary.

 

[Jebusman]

Part of their job is now to sell you these signatures. Like I said, you can disagree with how that might change the presentation, but nothing about the contract screams unfair to me.

Part of VALVE'S job was to sell signatures.

The hosts had zero control over that. And I'm sure if they just started saying on camera "Hey buy my signature I need to get paid" it wouldn't fly. Those signatures were presented to the fans as "Buy this if you want to support your favorite host". In reality it was more "Buy this so we don't have to pay them".

I've watched every single TI since the first 1. There is absolutely zero reason why Valve would not, from the beginning, pay a flat salary to any and all hosts and personality they hire, and not leave it up to the community to pay them, other than pure greed.

Saying otherwise is fucking ridiculous, and a testament to how well Valve has managed to convince people that they can do no wrong.

 

[Whompa02]

I love how this James guy is playing the victim when he:

- Knew the exact details of the job

- Signed the contract

You dig your own grave. The job was shitty and he got misdirected, but honestly...what can you expect from such a hostile and toxic environment in the first place.

 

[MikeDown]

I think "talent" is being a little generous

 

[ashecitism]

Hopefully more casters will chime in and this will get cleared. Got to say from the games I saw it's shame the tourney is getting overshadowed by this and the bad production.

Well, maybe not bad for the Chinese teams

I think "talent" is being a little generous

It's silly, but that's how they're usually called.

 

[Seiniyta]

Be careful, guys. The drama is still fresh.

[IMG---twitter image----]

Oh dear

Now I wonder if it's James lying or misremembering or if some miscommunications internally lead to this. (Valve employee x thinks No pay for anyone but 2Gd whilst in actuality it was already written out on paper beforehand)

Or if Purge were one of the few that also got paid. More casters/talent needs to chime in on this.

 

[bluexy]

What price?

As with all major publishers, these fiascoes rarely result in monetary costs. The hit will land on their brand. Same as the paid mods controversy, the internet will forever remember and the next issue that comes along will only be blown further out of proportion as a result.

 

[MotionBlue]

Very professional Gabe. I like to think Valve will stop being worshiped by some people, but who am I kidding.

 

[ashecitism]

Or if Purge were one of the few that also got paid. More casters/talent needs to chime in on this.

Anuxinamoon posted in the other thread. She does cosmetic items.

Was the lack of pay for casters/hosts known before James' statement? That seems utterly ridiculous.

I knew, and the insiders at ti4 knew, but since it got fixed I don't think people really talked about it.

The most interesting thing I remember a player telling me at ti4 was how Valves Pre event player meeting was talking a bunch about how much money is in dota2. I remember him saying something like it was really different to ti3 where they cared about the players and community and that was the main talking point at the ti3 meeting.
He was pretty concerned with the shift in focus over 12 months. Maybe he was right to be worried. Maybe we just don't know all of the story.

I hope valve learns from this a lot, where dota2 and the events after will be a lot more smoother.

another caster chimed in as well

 

[Tieske]

Here's another comment in favour of James' statement though:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/47u19o/valve_tried_to_pay_talent_through_ingame_images/d0fpxzu

seems like the pay thing wasn't malicious/greedy by intention, but it was to prevent taxing issues. Has been an issue alot previously, specifically with the Chinese

 

[Orca]

In valves defense, they put their "customers" first, their strategy for making zillions is to do right by the customer and give them what they want first - not shareholders or megalomanic management, us gamers first everytime.

I personally don't think Gabe responded unprofessionally, again this is a private company not one that has to appease a bunch of suits. There is no corporate spin doctor horseshit, James acted like a fuckwit and got fired, that's what happened and what we got told, I find it refreshing.

Now James is being a petulant child by releasing a gigantic TLR statement about petty issues that obviously weren't important enough to die on the hill for before, only now that he's been given the boot does any of this matter to him. Crocodile tears mate, what a twat.

James is grasping at straws, has zero respect and integrity and imo getting what he deserves.

Not paying people isn't done because you're 'putting customers first' but because you don't give a shit about their contributions. I don't know how anyone can justify the way they didn't pay people until THEY spoke up about it.

Paying them with a commission on item sales seems like a decent way to do it - but only if there's that base pay structure. I don't see Valve as being 'greedy' for doing it that way even if you want to take the viewpoint that customers are paying for their salary if they buy more than the base worth of signatures....customers pay for everyone's salary, and anyone in sales should be fairly familiar with the idea of base+ pay structure.

Edit - the workshop workaround for visa issues is just inane. You're a multi-million dollar business. Get your shit in order and work with them to have visa issues taken care of so they can do the job and get paid.

 

[hwateber]

I don't really watch competitive dota anymore and haven't for years, but this sounds like a situation where you should just read the contract? I thought this would be the case specially in a new industry like esports. You wouldn't take a regular job without reading your terms of employment.

That said, yeah Valve seems stingy when it comes to paying casters lol. But cheap != greedy

 

[Tovarisc]

I don't really watch competitive dota anymore and haven't for years, but this sounds like a situation where you should just read the contract? I thought this would be the case specially in a new industry like esports. You wouldn't take a regular job without reading your terms of employment.

That said, yeah Valve seems when it comes to paying casters lol. But cheap != greedy

Yeah. Way Valve tried to use for paying casters is little... odd and unorthodox, but to say it's 100% on Valve when hired talent also went along with this payment plan until James went "wot?". Hired talent also failed here and didn't look after their own interests, or were fine with given payment plan.

I mean... if you aren't okay with salary and payment plan presented why you would agree to it?

 

[Keikaku]

More context from Purge

It wasn't just 2GD that pushed for salaries every time. I give him full credit for TI2. We wouldn't have been paid if not for him, but him and the valve employee he referred to worked it out with valve and we all got paid, which we definitely deserved. Valve did the right thing there, ultimately.

TI4 from my perspective(from what I saw) it was a small group of people that pushed for it, not just James. I just checked the initial contract. There was ALWAYS a base salary at TI4 to be included with the signatures. Right from the start(as of a contract that I received end of June). And that base salary got adjusted and increase by valve multiple times during the event.

Regardless of how much you feel they were screwing us over in the contract, Valve did work with 'us(the people arguing for us)' to increase it a few times. They simply wouldn't raise it more if they disagreed completely.

There were some faults in the TI4 system and it wasn't perfect but at the end the base salary was extremely respectable, and while low sellers of tickets didn't get extra revenue from signature sales, their base salary was increased by ~80% after the negotiations.

I was open on my twitter to the fact that I was only speaking as English talent see here. Generally contract negotionations differ between regions(for some events, not necessarily valve ones, RU casters might get paid different than English).

Not sure if it's because of salary rates for each country you're from or tax reasons, but i'm only speaking as what I saw as an employee of that event and other talent that were involved in my segment of contract negotiations.

That's not my point. My point was that James framed his argument as:
Initial base pay was 0$+tips, then everyone was upset("Everyone is in a bad mood"), then
"Though luckily a lot of talent talk to Valve and we got this changed and had a base payment no matter how many signatures we sold."

The ONLY way this timeline makes sense(and if he does he's misremembering/misconstruing the 'Everyone is in a bad mood') is if James was asked/involved with talks about pay BEFORE we were ever shown contracts. Considering James was also quite off on the cut of the signatures going to talent, I think it's more likely just an error. That was almost 2 years ago. I had to double check on a LOT of details to remember things.

With that said, the way he wrote it furthers his narrative of 'Valve trying to get as much as they can out of talent' which I think is painting them in an unfair light.

There are many things you can criticize about the way Valve chose to determine pay for TI4, but saying they started at 0$ base and we had to collectively bargain for a higher base(while we were all informed of the situation) is completely wrong(or I and other people I talked to at the time were somehow left out this piece of information, which is fairly unlikely).

 

[old manatee]

People should be paid for their work. I'm tired of this bullshit society we've created where everyone is an intern or a volunteer or lives on tips.

 

[Dr.Acula]

So Valve's shady pay scheme is okay because they're trying to practice tax evasion?

 

[Syriel]

Here's another comment in favour of James' statement though:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/47u19o/valve_tried_to_pay_talent_through_ingame_images/d0fpxzu

seems like the pay thing wasn't malicious/greedy by intention, but it was to prevent taxing issues. Has been an issue alot previously, specifically with the Chinese

This is, quite frankly, bull. If you're coming in to the country for business/temporary work, there are visas for that. And they don't have nearly the paperwork as full time work/residence visas.

Valve could easily line up the visas and pay people properly.

Trying to evade US tax and employment law is not an explanation. At best, it is questionable.

 

[Ludens]

First the translation groups and than this. Valve really doesn't want to pay who work for them.

 

[Cipherr]

So Valve's shady pay scheme is okay because they're trying to practice tax evasion?

What shady pay scheme exactly? The one that was considered but didn't actually happen? Are we talking about a hypothetical, could have happened scenario that was completely avoided?

I'm having a hard hard time following this.

Edit: I think I get it? The initial idea seems unlikely to work. Pretty dumb idea, but it looks like it wasn't acted on in favor of a much better payment design?

 

[Kieli]

In valves defense, they put their "customers" first

If they cared, then they would have dedicated Steam customer support and move through the tickets much faster than they do.

They would also implement a bounty system for bugs, but they don't.

 

[B4s5C]

Fuck Evilore

 

[Tovarisc]

Seems to me if Valve took this all in a different direction regarding letting the caster go, a lot of this stuff wouldn't be brought up.

This stuff should have been brought up back when it was more relevant, imo. Instead everyone decided to maintain company line.

 

[DocSeuss]

In valves defense, they put their "customers" first, their strategy for making zillions is to do right by the customer and give them what they want first - not shareholders or megalomanic management, us gamers first everytime.

You're joking, right? In no universe do they put us first. If they did, they'd have better support, they'd be working on ensuring Steam remains a high-quality product (it's been going downhill) and so on and so forth.

No, that's not what Valve does. Valve is a lot more like a casino operator. Their job is to get you psychologically compelled to give them money. They're the corporation that wants to engineer fun by reading your biometrics and basically forcing dopamine release. They're the corporation that relies on psychological trickery to get people to spend money. Look at how any dev who's tried to do some of the things they do (see PD2/KF2 and their respective CSGO style money systems) gets massive amounts of hate. Look at all the poorly-designed, half-finished features, like Family Sharing or Greenlight. Family Sharing doesn't make Valve money, so it doesn't get attention. Greenlight was intended to offload the burden of gatekeeping to the community instead of Valve. Then there's the card system, which makes Valve Money, so of course it's very well thought out and they work to advertise games with cards and stuff. A lot more work feels like it's been put into cards--which makes Valve money--than other, more user-friendly systems.

Valve doesn't do anything for you. Valve does not care about you. Valve cares about manipulating you into spending money as cheaply and efficiently as possible. They want to get to the point where their customers are the ones doing the work to make them money. How they pay TF2 content creators right now is terrible, for instance, and basically makes them a ton of money for no work and screws over those creators.

Is getting paid with comissions a rare thing or something? I thought is pretty common.

It's usually always a flat rate for casting stuff, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Nzyme32]

They're the corporation that wants to engineer fun by reading your biometrics and basically forcing dopamine release.

The only bit I really disagree with is this, since that is kind of disingenuous towards the actual neuroscience involved in addiction or "fun" and other behavioural traits. Biometrics has a shit ton of awesome uses, but can of course be used to understand how to cater to a particular person or engage them when they otherwise are not for games. It can't actually be engineered to make something more "fun". Just more intently engaging by responding to your state at a particular instant. (As you might be able to tell, I am quite fond of the idea of biometrics in gaming)

Outside of that, yes, Valve have a ton of issues, but it is in terms of how they prioritise their long term plans over the current terms. They are so amendment in their own structure that they will seek to do what functions with that. As an almost science and engineering focused company, they are overly methodical in their approach. For example, their ultimate goal for customer service makes sense to be automated but also requires systems for easier traversal and organisation to suit their availability, so they are prioritising that, which ultimately leads to the unethical situation you have now where you can't get much done well via customer service - with the exception of the few times or luck of getting hold of a Valve employee who can help you. There are tons of cases like this, and it works out great for them and "fine" for the customer after a given time of either terrible service or wobbly issues. This is similarly true for all their "service"oriented games and hardware that see continual experimentation and updating, leaving a messy experience some times but garnering much info on players and the game, enough to iterate and improve at one level while further experiments damage something else... etc

That's Valve's business in a nutshell. These days I have equally good and bad things to say of them as they venture into more and more pies

 

[ashecitism]

latest tweets by Purge

 

[K.Jack]

In valves defense, they put their "customers" first, their strategy for making zillions is to do right by the customer and give them what they want first - not shareholders or megalomanic management, us gamers first everytime.

Company without a dedicated customer service wing, is putting its customers first? Are you daft?

 

[BigAT]

Thats what they are.

That's...what they are

errr thats because they are..

Please stop #customershaming.

 

[Kayo-kun]

Not properly paying people who are instrumental to your success is an asshole move.

This host thought is a racist and also a general ass.

So everyone is a loser here.

Hahah racist, oh my god. People are reaching.

You do know that LD and 2GD are close friends? LD even supported 2GD after he got fired.

 

[manfestival]

So a big time summary of this whole thing is.
Dude has a job.
Dude gets fired.
Complains on the internet because he knows he has an audience.
Internet proceeds to blow it up.
Dude hopes that this show can help him get his job back.