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Kojima: "Do we really need to succeed worldwide?" (Kojima On Diverging Markets)
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
I've always said that Japanese developers should just make what they make and not try to cater to the Western market. The more they do, they just end up in a dead zone between the two and it lowers the overall quality of their product. They achieved success in the west originally doing this, and they will again.
Wada actually agrees with him on this.Suzzopher said:
This is why the only Japanese game at E3 was FFXIII-2.
Here's an excerpt from an interview Wada had a while back as well.
Source: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/5892/square_enix_in_2010_president_.php?page=2Gamasutra said:
NullPointer
Member
The world has changed since then, but I'm all for giving more Japanese games a solid chance if they could incorporate more modern control schemes and saving/checkpoint systems.Ronok said:
That's the most intelligent answer about the issue I've heard in a long time. So does this mean he'll finally stop making Metal Gear and make something more japanese like ZoE3?
Also when talking about japans decline you have to put it into some pespective. They completely dominated console gaming up until 10 years ago or so; now the rest of the world is finally catching up. They still have a sizable chunk of the market, but is it really fair to expect them to continue dominating like they used to? Also you never really see comparisons specifically between Japanese games and US-games, it's always Japan vs the world, and the world is a much bigger place.
Also when talking about japans decline you have to put it into some pespective. They completely dominated console gaming up until 10 years ago or so; now the rest of the world is finally catching up. They still have a sizable chunk of the market, but is it really fair to expect them to continue dominating like they used to? Also you never really see comparisons specifically between Japanese games and US-games, it's always Japan vs the world, and the world is a much bigger place.
Kojima has some real perspective as usual.
It's a shame what things have come to. It sounds like if it were up to him, he'd go back to the drawing board in Japan and forget about the west entirely. I see this as a huge red flag when a developer as important as Kojima is starting to think this way.
It's a shame what things have come to. It sounds like if it were up to him, he'd go back to the drawing board in Japan and forget about the west entirely. I see this as a huge red flag when a developer as important as Kojima is starting to think this way.
What's crazy is that Recetear's indie localizer/publisher proved to be a phenomenal and smart step in the right direction for this.Rei_Toei said:
As for Japanese titles on XBLA/PSN, you'll actually find that the 360 remains as the console of choice for the hardcore Japanese gamer due to all of the moneyhands that MS handed out early on in the generation. Look hard enough and you'll find tons of weird Japanese games on XBLIG, which is a far cry from the empty savannah that is PSN's Japanese game development front.
I'm not even touching WiiWare.
You realize that ZoE isn't really Kojima's baby, right?beril said:
It's quite unlikely as he doesn't control the purse strings and this is the opinion of the people at Konami who do.beril said:
NullPointer
Member
Not an expert (or very knowledgeable about Japanese gaming), but if you were referring to the Japanese game dominance of yore there weren't any real console alternatives, and now there are.Ronok said:
I don't understand what you're trying to illustrate with those two screencaps. The subtitles, or what I assume to be screens taken from footage for NeverDead (a western-developed game)Nirolak said:
I think Konami's demonstrated success so far with Castlevania's reboot. I imagine that they haven't been burned yet, so they still feel good.
I also don't think that Kojima's necessarily making a call for all Japanese developers to stop doing what they're doing and stop making games for a global market--he's questioning the viability of doing so, especially for developers who half-ass it, or as the article writer interpreted, wanting to have their cake and eat it.
Binary Domain is practically the poster child of what Kojima's talking about. It also applies to publishers mishandling IP outsourcing, like how SE handled Front Mission Evolved.
As for ZoE 3, I don't think its an accident that they're releasing an HD collection. I predict a ZoE announcement of an announcement at TGS.
Japanese developers, imho, have succesfully tried to mistreat their problems.
How is this?
Well, I think that there has not been and there still is not a problem with the design and the settings of any good japanese games, just as there is no problem with the bald designs in the best western games, no matter how many "browsome" IGN articles and gaf hate threads are written about them.
There was, however, 2 huge problems in the japanese development world:
1) The lack of real competition and adaptation of good and working ideas between different developers.
2) The engines and the internal communications, which resulted in a long delay in several AAA+ projects, examples are FFXIII, Versus, Team ICO games, Polyphony games.
The second problem, I think, needs no explanation. The first does: if there is a good concept in the FPS/Shooter space like the Horde, where mobs come in waves after waves after waves, every good developer tries its own take on that, having no shame with using an awesome idea. I do not see JRPG space being nearly as competitive. Every single developer shuts every other RPG, every other innovation out, and just tries to reinvent its own wheel for th n+1th time. That is pathetic, pathetic.
Hell, FFXII came and everyone praised its fluid combat and the new ideas (no matter what people thought about the story now, mind ya) - and what happened? NOTHING! Every single developer ignored FFXII and just continued making the same games as before. Horrible.
How is this?
Well, I think that there has not been and there still is not a problem with the design and the settings of any good japanese games, just as there is no problem with the bald designs in the best western games, no matter how many "browsome" IGN articles and gaf hate threads are written about them.
There was, however, 2 huge problems in the japanese development world:
1) The lack of real competition and adaptation of good and working ideas between different developers.
2) The engines and the internal communications, which resulted in a long delay in several AAA+ projects, examples are FFXIII, Versus, Team ICO games, Polyphony games.
The second problem, I think, needs no explanation. The first does: if there is a good concept in the FPS/Shooter space like the Horde, where mobs come in waves after waves after waves, every good developer tries its own take on that, having no shame with using an awesome idea. I do not see JRPG space being nearly as competitive. Every single developer shuts every other RPG, every other innovation out, and just tries to reinvent its own wheel for th n+1th time. That is pathetic, pathetic.
Hell, FFXII came and everyone praised its fluid combat and the new ideas (no matter what people thought about the story now, mind ya) - and what happened? NOTHING! Every single developer ignored FFXII and just continued making the same games as before. Horrible.
Hmm, perhaps it doesn't make as much sense out of the context of the video: http://www.g4tv.com/videos/53257/konami-president-shinji-hirano-on-metal-gear-and-more/Ellis Kim said:
Konami is essentially taking up the DmC: Devil May Cry strategy.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I am really happy about his statement. Double down.. If you're Japanese, make the craziest-ass Japanese game that you want to make. Everything else is crap.
Shadow of the BEAST
Banned
I actually think its a load of defeatist bollocks.
Obviously the japanese dominance would not last for ever. But the way the japanese industry has fallen this generation cant be explained by cultural reasons. That is actually ridiculous.
Id say its 99% because of the platform the japanese chose to embrace. Namely ds and to a lesser extent the psp.
The handheld market is small in the west. And most of these handheld games are more or less unportable to consoles.
And when the bulk and the best teams in japan are working on a platform which games you cant sell or port to another more viable platform you cant expect games to be successfull.
Obviously the japanese dominance would not last for ever. But the way the japanese industry has fallen this generation cant be explained by cultural reasons. That is actually ridiculous.
Id say its 99% because of the platform the japanese chose to embrace. Namely ds and to a lesser extent the psp.
The handheld market is small in the west. And most of these handheld games are more or less unportable to consoles.
And when the bulk and the best teams in japan are working on a platform which games you cant sell or port to another more viable platform you cant expect games to be successfull.
Someone seriously needs to come in and upend the proverbial teatable of Japanese game development, infrastructure, communication, and workflow.V_Arnold said:
Japanese developers are only now really identifying these problems, what with Wada's recent announcement of their billion-something loss and stating how they desperately need to restructure their communication and workflow. Kojima identified this need to understand western development ages ago, as noted by when he tweeted his traveling plans and went to several key western studios.
At the same time, though, it almost sounds like this sort of western-style development environment is popping up mostly, if not almost exclusively, in new indie studios in Japan, or just the smaller teams in general.
See, this is the problem... game developers in Japan are making the same mistake that anime producers have been making for several years. To sell to Americans, they pander to Americans. To sell to the Japanese, they pander to the Japanese. But the best games that ever existed are ones that didn't pander to either market. Name some of the greats and you'll see that one of the things they have in common is that there's nothing explicitly "Japanese" or "Western" about them.
IoCaster
Member
NullPointer said:
This is essentially what kills JP games for me. As a mostly PC gamer the lack of save anywhere, free camera and clunky/tank controls in their games are a pain. I had to force myself to play past the first couple of levels in Lost Odyssey because of the fixed camera. That side scrolling style was already ancient in the 90's. Hunting for save points/crystals or whatever are also something that I find irritating. I don't like it when western devs use a checkpoint system as well and I tend to mostly stay away from those games.
Curious that he says that NeverDead is their first western-developed, Japanese-produced game, though I guess its technically the first that's outside of the Kojima Production wheelhouse (EVEN IF the producer in question is a former Kojima Productions producer). Come to think of it, the last two to three Silent Hill games have been western-developed as well.Nirolak said:
I like how one of their corporate initiatives is very clearly on getting in touch with fans through social networking stuff, which they've made very clear with how almost annoyingly active their Facebook team posts new updates :/ Still, its smart.
But I don't see the problem.
I wouldn't say that they're "essentially taking up the DmC" approach, especially when they've been doing that for a while now. The only difference is that that's going to be one of their big focuses for the next 3 years.
Capcom was the first third-party publisher this generation to take that step, and continues to take that risk, with independent developers, completely thanks to Inafune. But they've also been the most burned by that this generation as well.
Its when publishers mishandle IP, or when a given game has a weak producer or vision for a game, that we see bombs, and that's what Konami needs to avoid.
If anything, that video addresses a key concern that's been expressed in this thread over and over: Keeping games Japanese-y, and that quirkiness definitely seems to be a trait that Konami plans to wear on their sleeve as a main selling point, despite western development.
IoCaster
Member
Marrshu said:
The problem with Blue Dragon was the save points that I had to constantly search for. So basically there almost always seems to be some kind of trade off with the JP games that I've played. I still managed to enjoy both games, but Last Remnant got just about everything (camera, controls, save anywhere) right.
V_Arnold said:
Recognizable and saddening. There are SNES/MegaDrive era RPGs with great ideas/concepts that have never been replicated. Square Enix is the example I'm most familiar with - there's tons of titles in their SNES/PSOne/PS2 catalog with innovative concepts they just never bothered to use again. Nor did their competitors imitate/borrow these concepts.
Their other Western games weren't actually Japanese produced though. They just shoved the Japanese studio names on them because they thought they were good selling points.Ellis Kim said:
It's like how Square Enix claimed Deus Ex was a Western/Japanese collaboration because Eidos Montreal made the game and Visual Works made a CG commercial for it.
NeverDead is actually the person from Metal Gear Acid designing a game for the West with Rebellion as a labor force instead of an actual development partner. It's a lot like how they have Nagoshi making Binary Domain for the Western market with advisement from Sega West's marketing department.
We'll see how this goes when NeverDead comes out, but I'm going to place a large bet on "super bombs and reviews poorly".
Given that Konami views this as their corporate strategy for the next few years, you might see why I'm pessimistic.
Still, nobody is interested ;_;Ushojax said:
Edit: I do agree with Kojima. The last few years Japanese console games haven't been up to snuff (well, Nintendo being th eexception again) and here's hoping that Japanese developers just don't give a flying fuck about trying to be (forcefully) succesfull in the west. Be like Platinum Games. Well, I wish
gundamkyoukai
Member
Dance In My Blood said:
They can't compete because they take to long to make games compare to west .
Every year you have a COD that sells million plus other IP that sell well get yearly or every 2 years get a sequel.
Take a look at the best selling Japanese games and how long they take to come out or get sequels.
I will use GT as a eg 1 GT game in 5 years is crazy compare to how they going to be 3 forza games around the same time.
Right now Japanese have western devs houses making there games cause they can do it fast and they think they can get more sales.
When they should be trying to fix there work flow more that anything else right now.
At least that is one thing Wada is trying to do right .
IoCaster
Member
Marrshu said:
Yeah, it was definitely rough around the edges on X360, but the PC version is a vast improvement in almost every way. I just started a NG+ on hard difficulty and I'm going almost strictly 'item' (herbs, potions, lotions, explosives, shards, wards) use for Rush. No mystic, weapon or special arts. There's a lot of replayability in the game with all of the various combinations of combat skills/talents/arts.
Anyway, that's enough off-topic comments from me, so I'll shut it down.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Nice one.
Has anyone else (in a position of power) from Japan said anything similar? Wada needs to take notice for instance. Square Enix are the company that spring to mind as having fallen from grace the most.
Sega are trying (making Japanesy Western games) with Platinum, but the sales really aren't too hot.
Capcom have done well with overseas success, and home success with Monster Hunter.
Level-5 have a mega hit with Layton and thats popular everywhere.
Konami have a global football brand, Metal Gear etc.
I'm hoping that SE use the Eidos studios to make the western appealing games, and they let Final Fantasy continue to be heavily Japanese. They'll make money from both ends that way.
Has anyone else (in a position of power) from Japan said anything similar? Wada needs to take notice for instance. Square Enix are the company that spring to mind as having fallen from grace the most.
Sega are trying (making Japanesy Western games) with Platinum, but the sales really aren't too hot.
Capcom have done well with overseas success, and home success with Monster Hunter.
Level-5 have a mega hit with Layton and thats popular everywhere.
Konami have a global football brand, Metal Gear etc.
I'm hoping that SE use the Eidos studios to make the western appealing games, and they let Final Fantasy continue to be heavily Japanese. They'll make money from both ends that way.
Ahoi-Brause
Banned
Quoting this for truth.Rahxephon91 said:
Vanquish is typically japanese and it's great.
It's basically a hail back to the snes action game days - for me at least.
The pretty boy thing is just a recent and very annoying cultural fad where game companies saw that appealing to fujoshi will get them a few extra sales.
That kind of oversexualisation ruins most games for me, but apparently that's how you sell games today in japan.
Whinning douchebag heroes were probably influenced by evangelion.
I personally think japan should get it's shit together and start making good games again without being locked into an incestous circle where they only copy each other until their games aren't playable anymore by anyone who's not a fan.
Angry Fork
Member
Why is Kojima still with Konami? =/
This shit is so fucking tired/obnoxious already..la1n said:
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
There are two major issues at hand:
First of all the cultural landscape has changed, making traditional Japanese games less internationally successful. More problematically much what has become popular in gaming overseas is unappealing and alien to Japan generally.
Secondly, this generation has highlighted flaws in the general process of Japanese game-making; some of the bigger players -most notably SE- have struggled to adapt to the requirements of HD game-production.
What Kojima is talking about is improving process in order to make better Japanese games. Games that are successful and well received in their intended market -whichever that may be- and are profitable.
Lastly, pandering to what is perceived to be popular in foreign markets is not a good idea when the people actually making the game don't "get it"; when they are following a marketing strategy not their own culturally-guided creative impulses.
First of all the cultural landscape has changed, making traditional Japanese games less internationally successful. More problematically much what has become popular in gaming overseas is unappealing and alien to Japan generally.
Secondly, this generation has highlighted flaws in the general process of Japanese game-making; some of the bigger players -most notably SE- have struggled to adapt to the requirements of HD game-production.
What Kojima is talking about is improving process in order to make better Japanese games. Games that are successful and well received in their intended market -whichever that may be- and are profitable.
Lastly, pandering to what is perceived to be popular in foreign markets is not a good idea when the people actually making the game don't "get it"; when they are following a marketing strategy not their own culturally-guided creative impulses.
Discotheque
Banned
Angry Fork said:
I'm sorry this can't be your utopia, but there is also this opinion that comments like "Kojima creates masterpieces, stories are amazing. Snake changed my life!" etc. is also fucking tired/obnoxious.
Two sides of a coin mate. I'd have to say MGS was a big part of my childhood and it's easily one of the most important game series to me. But unlike many other things in my childhood, this one I'm just done with. I can't even look at it with nostalgia. The games are kinda fun to play but I feel they're bogged down by too many useless and boring 'dramatic' cutscenes.
Bring on ZOE3. It's almost certain now.
demosthenes
Member
Nirolak said:
As long as they still make an effort to localize the games I don't care. I just hope they realize that there is an audience that still wants these 'japanese' games outside of Japan.
Discotheque
Banned
I'm pretty surprised at how fun NeverDead looks. Possible sleeper hit? (among this community I mean, lol no chance it gets any momentum in sales)
Discotheque said:
Yea, I really don't think the two statements are equivalent at all, which you seem to be suggesting (one of my pet peeves). Telling someone to stop making games and retire because you dont enjoy them is a whole lot more obnoxious than someone praising a game or a game creator because a lot of people love the game or the game that he creates. The first person can simply not play the games and ignore everything that the game creator does, but if the first person gets his way, then the people that love those games are missing out on one of their favorite series