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[Comandr]

Are people dumb enough to purchase this? I'd really like to meet the person who bought this.

You realize there are people that buy collectors editions of games and then just let them sit in the boxes, in closets or out of sight? Some people buy cars like, lots of them, and just throw them all in a garage or "show room" with no one to see them. Other people buy boats and rarely use them. Someone might throw down several hundred dollars on a dinner. That's one meal. They'll be hungry again in a few hours.

Some people spend a gargantuan amount of money on things that others would never understand. If that's what makes them happy, who are we to judge?

 

[Zalusithix]

They couldn't include that ship in the $18,000 package?

The $2,500 Javelin didn't even exist back when the the $15,000 (USD) pack was created, and ships like the Idris have gotten a hell of a lot larger. Fact is, despite the name of the package, a number of the recent ship concepts aren't in it. They're under no obligation to constantly update the package with every new ship concept they come up with. And frankly, anybody shelling out $15,000 isn't going to have a problem pledging more, so it's a non-issue.

 

[The Dear Leader]

The game's budget is over $100 million though. What other game has that kind of budget? Metal Gear Solid V was close with $80 million. I'm sure Grand Theft Auto V is up there too, but Rockstar has delivered & then some.

Why does the budget matter? If someone pays $45 they have the same amount invested if the budget is $200 and an Arbys coupon or if it's $125 million.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

No man's sky was crowdfunded now?

I think NMS is a general example for feature creep, overpromising, and "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is".

 

[Krabboss]

I love how people act as if a 4 year development is a sign of disaster, when this game has been in development for 9 years, and yet everyone on Gaf obsesses with how great of a game it will be.

The same can be said of FFXV. 10 years of development for a singleplayer game!
But hey ho, I guess that's what you get for being a PC only title.

I don't believe people think Last Guardian will be great.

 

[Besthelboy]

I just want a single player wing commander spiritual sucessor

Nothing else in this interests me

Wonder if they will ever actually finish the single player stuff though. No gameplay or trailer has been shown, right??

The bulk of the work for the first chapter of Squadron42 (20h) is more or less done. They want a Naughty Dog level of polish done on it so when they think it's "ready" is up to them, but most of the work is done. We'll probably know more at Citizen Con.

 

[Besthelboy]

I think NMS is a general example for feature creep, overpromising, and "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is".

NMS was done by a 10 man team with a much lower budget and was developing primarily for a console. It's nonsensical to compare the two.

 

[PFD]

This is quite disturbing. Glad I never touched this

 

[sohois]

Plenty. Do you? When your project drastically changes you respec your engine requirements. You research the best locations for your industry rather than arbitrarily migrating across an ocean because you worked there 20 years ago. You have workflow processes in place beforehand so everyone knows what project they're working on. You don't use simultaneous releases for the exact reasons their own goddamn developers gave. You don't needlessly start up a whole bunch of satellite studios for the exact reason that it can result in months and months of work being scrapped due to not everyone working on the same page.

Who reads a massive infodump like one in the OP and has their opinion completely unchanged? Are you so majorly invested you're going to dismiss anything negative?

I'm not actually invested, I've never been that interested in the game.

The kind of situations you write about are fine for established multinationals, not so much for a new developer. Those kind of best practices don't just turn up overnight; I suppose they could have poured money into consulting firms but the end cost would have been the same. And of course, plenty of major developers are still completely mismanaged despite their years of experience dealing with crises.

 

[Zalusithix]

I think NMS is a general example for feature creep, overpromising, and "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is".

Feature creep would imply they actually attempted to do the stuff they claimed they were doing, which all signs point to not happening. NMS is just an example of outright lies, and half truths that couldn't be vetted by anybody before release.

 

[SystemBug]

Yes it has lol

Spoiler

Something just seems super artificial about this. Like it looks super fake. maybe it's due to the stylized lighting in the game

 

[Besthelboy]

Plenty. Do you? When your project drastically changes you respec your engine requirements. You research the best locations for your industry rather than arbitrarily migrating across an ocean because you worked there 20 years ago. You have workflow processes in place beforehand so everyone knows what project they're working on. You don't use simultaneous releases for the exact reasons their own goddamn developers gave. You don't needlessly start up a whole bunch of satellite studios for the exact reason that it can result in months and months of work being scrapped due to not everyone working on the same page.

Who reads a massive infodump like one in the OP and has their opinion completely unchanged? Are you so majorly invested you're going to dismiss anything negative?

Most people who were invested already knew about these problems because Chris Roberts openly speaks about the problems with developing this game and how they plan to fix things.

 

[J-Skee]

Why does the budget matter? If someone pays $45 they have the same amount invested if the budget is $200 and an Arbys coupon or if it's $125 million.

A game with that much money poured into it & it turns out bad? Whether you paid $45 or $2500 for it, it's still going to sting, especially knowing that you contributed to the total budget of it.

 

[vareon]

I never knew Star Citizen had so much trouble. All I knew was it was from the guy who made Wing Commander, made a shitload of money without Kickstarter, and it was mega ambitious and will put my PC to cry. Great article.

 

[Steel]

I think NMS is a general example for feature creep, overpromising, and "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is".

It's a great example of a game with barely a budget and like 4 employees with a fraction of the amount of openess into their development process that Star Citizen has.

A game with that much money poured into it & it turns out bad? Whether you paid $45 or $2500 for it, it's still going to sting, especially knowing that you contributed to the total budget of it.

It would sting. Now, point to me where in the article it says the game will turn out bad.

 

[Chev]

I love how people act as if a 4 year development is a sign of disaster, when this game has been in development for 9 years, and yet everyone on Gaf obsesses with how great of a game it will be.

The same can be said of FFXV. 10 years of development for a singleplayer game!
But hey ho, I guess that's what you get for being a PC only title.

Both of these projects are expected to be underwhelming and/or possibly catastrophes. The E3 previews I've read for the last Guardian certainly say it's not coming together at all.

 

[J-Skee]

It would sting. Now, point to me where in the article it says the game will turn out bad.

I never said it will definitely be a bad game. I am responding to comment that responded to another comment saying if the game turns out to be bad.

 

[pompidu]

You realize there are people that buy collectors editions of games and then just let them sit in the boxes, in closets or out of sight? Some people buy cars like, lots of them, and just throw them all in a garage or "show room" with no one to see them. Other people buy boats and rarely use them. Someone might throw down several hundred dollars on a dinner. That's one meal. They'll be hungry again in a few hours.

Some people spend a gargantuan amount of money on things that others would never understand. If that's what makes them happy, who are we to judge?

People judge people all the time, the fabric of human society demands people to be judged on a daily basis.

But,

All those things you mentioned are actual physical objects. There is no value in this digital ship for a game no one will remember 10 years from now.

Mind you it's not for a ship, it's an extra 2500 for a chance to get a ship on top of 18,000$. People spend absurd amount of money on stupid shit all the time and that's fine. They are dumb, and that's ok if they are dumb.

 

[Phinor]

The difference is that no one here paid money for both games in advance. If both of them suck, no one really cares except for Sony and Square Enix. If SC sucks, there will be more tears than we had with Mighty No. 9. A lot more.

A lot of gamers have money tied to those games already and a lot more will spend their money well before release. If TLG or FF15 turn out to be 50/100 metacritic games, millions of gamers will care.

Seems like a lot of the people who have issues with how Star Citizen is developing are people who have zero interest in the game, have no money tied to the game or in fact have not even been following the development. It's fun to expect a train wreck I suppose but are we even on collision course yet?

 

[Xplatformer]

This somehow makes me more excited for the game.

Read the article...and I've ended up where you are.

Everyone should do their research, download what's available...if it's your cup of tea and you want to contribute, do.

If it's your cup of tea and you DON'T want to contribute, Don't. Simple.

If the game isn't your cup of tea but you spent the time to read the article because you found it to be interesting...as a two ship contributor to the development of Star Citizen I'll just say..."you're welcome".

. Bake it some more Chris.

 

[RK9039]

A lot of gamers have money tied to those games already and a lot more will spend their money well before release. If TLG or FF15 turn out to be 50/100 metacritic games, millions of gamers will care.

Seems like a lot of the people who have issues with how Star Citizen is developing are people who have zero interest in the game, have no money tied to the game or in fact have not even been following the development. It's fun to expect a train wreck I suppose but are we even on collision course yet?

A collision course straight to Suplex City!

Spoiler

I can't wait for Citizencon

 

[Primethius]

I don't believe people think Last Guardian will be great.

I do. It's gonna be great. It's a Ueda game. So it might even be a masterpiece.

 

[joecanada]

People judge people all the time, the fabric of human society demands people to be judged on a daily basis.

But,

All those things you mentioned are actual physical objects. There is no value in this digital ship for a game no one will remember 10 years from now.

Mind you it's not for a ship, it's an extra 2500 for a chance to get a ship on top of 18,000$. People spend absurd amount of money on stupid shit all the time and that's fine. They are dumb, and that's ok if they are dumb.

Lol why don't you tell us how you really feel? People do waste insane amounts of money all the time, I just kind of wish they would put at least some into other people if they have money to burn (although a lot of devs got work here I suppose).

I loved all of Chris Roberts games, I used to preach about his games (lol), but this large project scope and the articles are reminding me of a brilliant artist who has no actual ability to run a company. there are two vastly different things at play here, creating something great, and managing a company, budget, employees, meetings, etc....

If even half of this is true it's a how not to run a company 101.

Needless to say I'm a pragmatist and I'll buy the game on steam

Spoiler

sale (Im also cheap)

if its good.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Star Citizen suffers from the 'sausage being made' issue. All AAA games spend years and years in development, cost tens upon tens of millions, and have horrendous stories about long hours, missed milestones, etc.

If Witcher 3 and GTAV had documented their development in the open and allowed such broad alpha-access, people would have savaged those games too.

Now while the stories of endless crunch time and toxic culture are disheartening, it's not a sign that the game won't come out, or that the game will be bad when it does come out, because most AAA game development is done under deplorable conditions.

 

[gabbo]

Star Citizen suffers from the 'sausage being made' issue. All AAA games spend years and years in development, cost tens upon tens of millions, and have horrendous stories about long hours, missed milestones, etc.

If Witcher 3 and GTAV had documented their development in the open and allowed such broad alpha-access, people would have savaged those games too.

Now while the stories of endless crunch time and toxic culture are disheartening, it's not a sign that the game won't come out, or that the game will be bad when it does come out, because most AAA game development is done under deplorable conditions.

I was kind of hoping since this is big budget but not big budget with a publisher or deadline looming over it, it would not have such deplorable conditions. Sure, it happens, but shouldn't instances like this show the industry trying to move away from such things and not revel in them?
Why are we normalizing such terrible working conditions in the industry?

 

[Zalusithix]

Mind you it's not for a ship, it's an extra 2500 for a chance to get a ship on top of 18,000$. People spend absurd amount of money on stupid shit all the time and that's fine. They are dumb, and that's ok if they are dumb.

You're right, it's not for a ship. It's for 66 ships, including two capital class ships. Then you can spend $2,500 on top of the $15,000 for the largest player owned capital class ship in the game. Could people complaining about the completionist package at least get the details right about what they're talking about? Stop mixing currencies, acting like it's a single ship, etc. I mean, it's fine if you're going to complain about stuff for the sake of complaining about it, but at least be accurate with the complaints.

 

[Starfield]

Derek Smart are you okay???

 

[apav]

I was kind of hoping since this is big budget but not big budget with a publisher or deadline looming over it, it would not have such deplorable conditions. Sure, it happens, but shouldn't instances like this show the industry trying to move away from such things and not revel in them?
Why are we normalizing such terrible working conditions in the industry?

In the case of Star Citizen, it is currently crunch time because Citizencon is right around the corner, and Chris said the next patch (2.6) should be out in October, the huge patch shown off at Gamescom (3.0) should be out by the end of the year, and Squadron 42 will be done by the end of this year or early next year. Not official deadlines, just an estimate, but if they're busting their asses they must be behind and are desperately trying to be able to meet those timeframes. Getting a demo build ready for a convention and releasing all of this in the next couple of months is monumental amounts of work.

 

[jett]

What an insane article. I've been reading for an hour and I'm still not done. Was Kotaku trying to simulate the Star Citizen backing experience? My props, for sure.

Problems with this game as far as I can see from what I have read so far:

-Initially: no planning/Never-ending stretch goals/Developers stretched too thin
-Terrible management
-Crytek was absolutely the wrong decision
-Chris Roberts is an egomaniac
-Horrible work environment and culture

I wonder if this game is going to be any good if it ever comes out.

 

[BigEmil]

Damn.

Don't get why so much people like this space game so much and having all that fund money geez. Shenmue 3 and Bloodstained alone will be the better games for sure

 

[Donos]

long read but good. It's actually not so onesided as the here quoted snippets suggest. Good work kotaku

 

[soldat7]

Saved to Instapaper as a 63 minute read. Dayum.

Don't get why so much people like this space game so much and having all that fund money geez. Shenmue 3 and Bloodstained alone will be the better games for sure

Different games, different genres.

 

[Mudcrab]

Don't get why so much people like this space game so much and having all that fund money geez. Shenmue 3 and Bloodstained alone will be the better games for sure

Its almost as if people are interested in different kinds of things?

 

[Spirited]

Don't get why so much people like this space game so much and having all that fund money geez. Shenmue 3 and Bloodstained alone will be the better games for sure

Yeah I fully agree with you here, they'll be objectively better for the fans of space sims!

long read but good. It's actually not so onesided as the here quoted snippets suggest. Good work kotaku

The guy doing the quoting had already chosen a side.

 

[apav]

What an insane article. I've been reading for an hour and I'm still not done. Was Kotaku trying to simulate the Star Citizen backing experience? My props, for sure.

Problems with this game as far as I can see from what I have read so far:

-Initially: no planning/Never-ending stretch goals/Developers stretched too thin
-Terrible management
-Crytek was absolutely the wrong decision
-Chris Roberts is an egomaniac
-Horrible work environment and culture

I wonder if this game is going to be any good if it ever comes out.

What the article really fails to express is that despite all this they're still producing impressive results, and the game is still making good progress. It still has a long way to go, but it hasn't been in development for that long compared to other games.

 

[therealjay]

They are very nearly done with the single player.

It's not going to be much longer before we know if there is a real issue with Star Citizen or not.

Based off what I have seen and played of this game I think they are going to pull it off. Maybe not 10/10 masterpiece but since so much of the game is already playable I have no doubt that Star Citizen the package is going to be a thing eventually.

They are just brute forcing their way through development but I'm okay with that. It's one of if not the best looking games on the market and if they get 50% of the way there it's certainly going to be worth a 60 dollar AAA playthrough.

The real question to me is if they can pull off the persistant universe and shooter elements. I think it's pretty clear at this point the single player game is coming and coming pretty soon.

 

[Besthelboy]

There is no engine that would be as flexible (or scale able) as needed for the project. If anything, in hindsight Crytek was absolutely the right pick of the bunch since due to the issues surrounding them, CGI was able to hire some of the engine developers who are reworking the engine now for SC to get it to where it needs to be for the project.

 

[Zalusithix]

It still has a long way to go, but it hasn't been in development for that long compared to other games.

More importantly, it's doing things that no other games have. Attempting stuff that nobody else has done before is inherently going to be messier and time consuming than going down the safe path. That's not to say things couldn't have been handled better, but comparisons to games by existing studios that really aren't that ambitious... are a bit unfair.

 

[Besthelboy]

Don't get why so much people like this space game so much and having all that fund money geez. Shenmue 3 and Bloodstained alone will be the better games for sure

StarCitizen has nothing to do with those games, the difference in level of complexity and scale is way to profound to even think about comparing.

 

[jett]

What the article really fails to express is that despite all this they're still producing impressive results, and the game is still making good progress. It still has a long way to go, but it hasn't been in development for that long compared to other games.

It's been 4+ years. I guess that's not long if your points of reference are debacles like FFXV, The Last Guardian and Duke Nukem Forever.

They are producing impressive results, like their recent stage demo. But like the article stated, I don't see a game. I saw a tech demo. I've seen "modules." Even just narrowing it down to just Squadron 42, I've only seen cut-scenes from that.

And let's not forget that they're swelling up to near 400 employees, and with no release date in sight sooner or later the company still stop being sustainable. Exactly how long can they still go?

 

[gabbo]

In the case of Star Citizen, it is currently crunch time because Citizencon is right around the corner, and Chris said the next patch (2.6) should be out in October, the huge patch shown off at Gamescom (3.0) should be out by the end of the year, and Squadron 42 will be done by the end of this year or early next year. Not official deadlines, just an estimate, but if they're busting their asses they must be behind and are desperately trying to be able to meet those timeframes. Getting a demo build ready for a convention and releasing all of this in the next couple of months is monumental amounts of work.

That doesn't really justify it, and I feel the article finds the idea of the continued module/demo releases to be dubious, as do I.

Roberts says he doesn't want CIG to fall into the bad cycles of AAA development that result in crunch, but he's got a fucking CitizenCon? A 'Con is just taking man hours away from the finalized product, and would they really take so much flak from their own community if they said they were stepping back, cancelling the con to focusing on the game; that they'd implode?

I mean people here are defending everything in the article (I'm not trying to single you out here, you're just who I'm replying to), so I can't see why they'd suddenly turn on the company for gearing down a notch and focusing less on them and more on the game/work-life balance of their employees

 

[Heebie Jeebies]

I live in Manchester and I had no idea they have a studio here :lol.

 

[Zalusithix]

That doesn't really justify it, and I feel the article finds the idea of the continued module/demo releases to be dubious, as do I.

Roberts says he doesn't want CIG to fall into the bad cycles of AAA development that result in crunch, but he's got a fucking CitizenCon? A 'Con is just taking man hours away from the finalized product, and would they really take so much flak from their own community if they said they were stepping back, cancelling the con to focusing on the game; that they'd implode?

I don't know about implode, but they'd take a hell of a lot of heat for doing that by those looking forward to it. It'd also be spun by the detractors as them not being able to get stuff done to show. It's a lose/lose situation from a PR perspective.

 

[tuxfool]

I mean people here are defending everything in the article (I'm not trying to single you out here, you're just who I'm replying to), so I can't see why they'd suddenly turn on the company for gearing down a notch and focusing less on them and more on the game/work-life balance of their employees

Nobody rational would and people have prodded them on this issue many times. The people currently there, when asked, say that they strive not to be that way. So you have named developers (not in this article) talking about this and unnamed sources painting a different picture.

 

[pompidu]

You're right, it's not for a ship. It's for 66 ships, including two capital class ships. Then you can spend $2,500 on top of the $15,000 for the largest player owned capital class ship in the game. Could people complaining about the completionist package at least get the details right about what they're talking about? Stop mixing currencies, acting like it's a single ship, etc. I mean, it's fine if you're going to complain about stuff for the sake of complaining about it, but at least be accurate with the complaints.

Your right, it's 66 ships for 227$ a pop.
Still ridiculous lol.
This is why developers add shit like this in game because dumb people buy them and give them reasons to continue too.

 

[gabbo]

I don't know about implode, but they'd take a hell of a lot of heat for doing that by those looking forward to it. It'd also be spun by the detractors as them not being able to get stuff done to show. It's a lose/lose situation from a PR perspective.

It doesn't seem like that bothers them much. I mean this article is at worst; slightly critical of Roberts style but generally even handed and neutral in tone, and it's still getting somewhat vitriolic reactions from both sides. I don't see how getting the game in peoples hands sooner is going to knock the wind from their PR sails. A few hundred to maybe a thousand unhappy would-be Con-goers aren't going to be the end of the game.

Nobody rational would and people have prodded them on this issue many times. The people currently there, when asked, say that they strive not to be that way. So you have named developers (not in this article) talking about this and unnamed sources painting a different picture.

Fair enough point. I just don't like the idea that people defend crunch as a way of life full stop.

 

[apav]

It's been 4+ years. I guess that's not long if your points of reference are debacles like FFXV, The Last Guardian and Duke Nukem Forever.

They are producing impressive results, like their recent stage demo. But like the article stated, I don't see a game. I saw a tech demo. I've seen "modules." Even just narrowing it down to just Squadron 42, I've only seen cut-scenes from that.

And let's not forget that they're swelling up to near 400 employees, and with no release date in sight sooner or later the company still stop being sustainable. Exactly how long can they still go?

This game has been really in development for only 4 years (can't really count 2011 since that was a scrapped prototype Roberts made with very limited resources and some part time help). Most MMOs take over 5 years to make. The scale and level of detail this game is trying to achieve goes beyond what any MMO has ever attempted, not to mention they're developing a single player as well. So it's obvious to expect this project to take longer than most MMOs.

The thing about their "tech demos" is they do get released. I've seen pretty much every module besides the hangar and arena commander be called a tech demo. Biggest of all was Alpha 2.0, the Persistent Universe. People claimed it would never see the light of day. Months later, it was out and was exactly as CIG described it to be. Though a buggy mess, you can see the groundwork for the full game being laid down. What you saw in the Gamescom will be released to the public in a few months. And before anyone mentions Star Marine, that was seriously delayed because CIG contracted it out to another studio to do, and they did a terrible job where it just plain didn't work, so CIG had to redo most of it themselves. That should be coming this month actually. That recent video stabilization video looks like it's on that version of the game.

The good news is development is increasing exponentially, and according to them creating content is a breeze. As far as sustainability goes, they've constantly said they have plenty in reserves. They are still receiving a good amount of funding every day. Looks to be about $50-$100k on normal days and it spikes anytime there is a huge update or a convention. Pretty staggering to realize 4 years later they're still making this much every day. My guess for a release date is 2018 or 2019. There's still a lot to be done, but already have the foundation and a decent amount of systems in place. A huge amount of things are coming in 3.0, so much that it may actually be able to by considered a game by then. And besides, who knows what else they are working on or have finished but haven't told us about yet.

 

[Lothars]

Both of these projects are expected to be underwhelming and/or possibly catastrophes. The E3 previews I've read for the last Guardian certainly say it's not coming together at all.

Both look to be good. Neither are expected to be catastrophes other than a certain subset of people who want it to fail.

 

[LOLCats]

i got this "game" with a video card last year. I installed it and like walked around this slideshow space station deck. I then uninstalled and never looked back.

 

[Disxo]

i got this "game" with a video card last year. I installed it and like walked around this slideshow space station deck. I then uninstalled and never looked back.

Guess you didnt play enough.
Edit:
Whoops, forgot about the state of the game around that time.