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Analysis Kraken Vs ZLIB: 29% Smaller Game Sizes Losslessly, 297% Faster Decompression on PS5

SlimySnake

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Say what you will about Cerny but everything he said about the SSD and I/O has already come true. He touted instantaneous loading, smaller game sizes and smaller patches.

 

Bo_Hazem

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Zlib is inferior in everything compare to Kraken, kraken has faster decoding time, better compression ratio. PS5 decompressor is fine tuned for kraken and it's bandwidth can be considered as future proof (massive 22GB/s).
Because Cerny guessed that Kraken combined with Oodle textures can saturate those bandwidth in the future, currently is only around 17gb/s, if I'm not wrong.
Microsoft just use an traditional outdated compression format which is Zlib, and only build a custom decompressor unit, which is fine tuned only for Zlib and their own BCpack. Zlib is also slower in decoding time than kraken, so they don't need a very high speed bandwidth decompressor.
To summarize, Cerny and his team paid more attention to how data is packed and deliver to consumers, and also how to deliver those data at very high bandwidth with lowest latency to the GPU for rendering.
Microsoft priority is to build a server chip for its cloud gaming and uses that chip for building a traditional console without too much investment in RnD department.

Also the MS decompressor is not 100% independent and CPU must be engaged. The 17GB/s is average, even before that it could hit 20-22GB/s occasionally but with 9GB/s average. Now the average is much higher and the peak is more often reached.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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I still get a lengthy updating period after downloading PS5 patches. Will this be eliminated at some point?

Takes few seconds to around 1 minute. Your usual hyperbole? They're replacing/deleting older files instead of bloating the installed file like last gen methods. Maybe that what you prefer getting your installed game even bigger than it should be?



It's not like you can't play while downloading it like on other platforms.
 
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DarkMage619

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Takes few seconds to around 1 minute. You're usual hyperbole? They're replacing/deleting older files instead of bloating the installed file like last gen methods. Maybe that what you prefer getting your installed game even bigger than it should be?



It's not like you can't play while downloading it like on other platforms.
When I update Destiny 2 it is unplayable until the update is completed. This is after the download. I was curious if the technology you were talking about would eliminate this process or if it would continue. I noticed the same process with the PS4. It was the native PS5 60 fps version of the game.
 

Bo_Hazem

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When I update Destiny 2 it is unplayable until the update is completed. This is after the download. I was curious if the technology you were talking about would eliminate this process or if it would continue. I noticed the same process with the PS4. It was the native PS5 60 fps version of the game.

This has nothing to do with Kraken, it's just file optimization and replacing unwanted files to keep the installed games without unnecessary bloated sizes.
 
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jroc74

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I still get a lengthy updating period after downloading PS5 patches. Will this be eliminated at some point?

When I update Destiny 2 it is unplayable until the update is completed. This is after the download. I was curious if the technology you were talking about would eliminate this process or if it would continue. I noticed the same process with the PS4. It was the native PS5 60 fps version of the game.

I just updated No Man's Sky and there was no copying, installing process, at all. It was a 7GB download. It may be hit or miss, it may by native PS5 games dont have this issue., not really sure.

Maybe it depends on the individual devs? I started the game to initiate the update, then closed the game. Maybe it needs to be closed to not have a copying process?
 
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Any dev reacted towards this? could very well be that xbox includes all audio files from every language as they only allow one package. while sony forces developers to separate it. who knows tho. The difference being 2x sounds like its just missing data that the other versions do have.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Any dev reacted towards this? could very well be that xbox includes all audio files from every language as they only allow one package. while sony forces developers to separate it. who knows tho. The difference being 2x sounds like its just missing data that the other versions do have.

I think the Xbox here is mostly being treated as a mini PC due to the united GDK with the PC. Also seems like it's usually combining both version of XSS and XSS.
 
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Riky

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Any dev reacted towards this? could very well be that xbox includes all audio files from every language as they only allow one package. while sony forces developers to separate it. who knows tho. The difference being 2x sounds like its just missing data that the other versions do have.

I think that 95% of Xbox downloads are one file across the formats, nearly all contain the Xbox Series X and Series S versions and some even contain files for all Series and One consoles in one package.
 
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DarkMage619

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I just updated No Man's Sky and there was no copying, installing process, at all. It was a 7GB download. It may be hit or miss, it may by native PS5 games dont have this issue., not really sure.

Maybe it depends on the individual devs? I started the game to initiate the update, then closed the game. Maybe it needs to be closed to not have a copying process?
I was not aware that the installing process was on a game by game basis. That is interesting.
 

jroc74

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Massive size reduction again on PS5! 76% difference!
Ok, was looking for this to add to it.

I just got this game today, the PS4 version is 29GB. Damn...lol.

Odd because on the store its listed as 30GB as a minimum for PS5. I started a download of both versions to make sure I wasnt tripping when it said 15GB for the PS5 version.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Ok, was looking for this to add to it.

I just got this game today, the PS4 version is 29GB. Damn...lol.

Odd because on the store its listed as 30GB as a minimum for PS5. I started a download of both versions to make sure I wasnt tripping when it said 15GB for the PS5 version.

Not clear to me what you just said there. Is the PS5 version 15GB or larger?
 
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jroc74

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Not clear to me what you just said there. Is the PS5 version 15GB or larger?
Its 15GB, the store just doesnt have the correct file size. The store seems to list the PS4 file size for both versions.

PS5 is 15GB
PS4 is 29GB.

That tweet and the other one we see posted has the actual file sizes for PS5 games. The store might not be accurate in some cases. Could also be the case for Series consoles too. Not sure.
 
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dxdt

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Also the MS decompressor is not 100% independent and CPU must be engaged. The 17GB/s is average, even before that it could hit 20-22GB/s occasionally but with 9GB/s average. Now the average is much higher and the peak is more often reached.
How much of the CPU must be engaged on the XBX to decompress?
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Its 15GB, the store just doesnt have the correct file size. The store seems to list the PS4 file size for both versions.

PS5 is 15GB
PS4 is 29GB.

That tweet and the other one we see posted has the actual file sizes for PS5 games. The store might not be accurate in some cases. Could also be the case for Series consoles too. Not sure.

Great! Thanks for reporting that ;)

How much of the CPU must be engaged on the XBX to decompress?

Part of one core out of the 8 cores.
 
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mckmas8808

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Its 15GB, the store just doesnt have the correct file size. The store seems to list the PS4 file size for both versions.

PS5 is 15GB
PS4 is 29GB.

That tweet and the other one we see posted has the actual file sizes for PS5 games. The store might not be accurate in some cases. Could also be the case for Series consoles too. Not sure.

This is interesting.
 
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Panajev2001a

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I think that 95% of Xbox downloads are one file across the formats, nearly all contain the Xbox Series X and Series S versions and some even contain files for all Series and One consoles in one package.
Possible but what is the benefit for devices with a relatively small storage space like the XSX and especially the XSS… aside from tempting them with their proprietary memory card.

Sure, Sony is potentially putting pressure on all devs to reduce sizes as they only have. A solution for backups for now.
 

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Possible but what is the benefit for devices with a relatively small storage space like the XSX and especially the XSS… aside from tempting them with their proprietary memory card.

Sure, Sony is potentially putting pressure on all devs to reduce sizes as they only have. A solution for backups for now.

It isn't "possible" it's fact, I've tested numerous games on the storage card and external SSD, only a handful of the "shrinkable" games like Dirt 5 and Gears 5 are any different. Almost every game contains both the Series S and X versions, games like Halo MCC work on all four machines with one file.
Advantage is you can just move your storage card to different machines and play.
 

truth411

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Hmmm since Sony bought the license for Oodle Kraken for both PS4 and PS5. I have to think Sony is using it for Horizon 2 other Cross Gen Games.

I wonder what is the speed up of Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture Kraken on the PS4 vs Zlib. Kraken does work on Jaguar cores, not as good as dedicated hardware but much better than open source Zlib.
 
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Panajev2001a

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It isn't "possible" it's fact
Get over yourself, either leaving 😂 or emoji and then snapping like this. What is wrong this time? Ignored the entire message and latched on a single word. I was not attacking you so I find you snapping like this a bit odd, but 🤷‍♂️.

I see that advantage if you buy the external memory card to carry it over between XSX and XSS… it does kind of pushes people to purchase one and the use case is more limited and to me less valuable as a user than the game only downloading only the resources for the device at hand.

Even the use case you mentioned can be solved differently, see how Apple handles App Thinning when you have a game backed up on iCloud and move it between iPad and iPhone devices.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Get over yourself, either leaving 😂 or emoji and then snapping like this. What is wrong this time? Ignored the entire message and latched on a single word. I was not attacking you so I find you snapping like this a bit odd, but 🤷‍♂️.

I see that advantage if you buy the external memory card to carry it over between XSX and XSS… it does kind of pushes people to purchase one and the use case is more limited and to me less valuable as a user than the game only downloading only the resources for the device at hand.

Even the use case you mentioned can be solved differently, see how Apple handles App Thinning when you have a game backed up on iCloud and move it between iPad and iPhone devices.

If your car can't take more stuff buy an extension that is nearly half of your car's price (XSX) or almost as expensive as your car (XSS). Easy.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Hmmm since Sony bought the license for Oodle Kraken for both PS4 and PS5. I have to think Sony is using it for Horizon 2 other Cross Gen Games.

I wonder what is the speed up of Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture Kraken on the PS4 vs Zlib. Kraken does work on Jaguar cores, not as good as dedicated hardware but much better than open source Zlib.

Difference is like the one shown on the OP, 3x faster no matter the decompressor if not more.
 

Thief1987

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Hmmm since Sony bought the license for Oodle Kraken for both PS4 and PS5. I have to think Sony is using it for Horizon 2 other Cross Gen Games.

I wonder what is the speed up of Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture Kraken on the PS4 vs Zlib. Kraken does work on Jaguar cores, not as good as dedicated hardware but much better than open source Zlib.
Horizon ZD already uses oodle compression, just i'm not sure if it's Kraken or other algo from the oodle family. So it's should be the same for FW.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Horizon ZD already uses oodle compression, just i'm not sure if it's Kraken or other algo from the oodle family. So it's should be the same for FW.

Yeah the only difference would be that PS4 will have duplicates and PS5 will have higher quality assets. Should end up with PS5 version being smaller.
 
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MonarchJT

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Your answer was already given in the Bluepoint video I shared with you earlier.

It's the PS5's SSD and I/O pipeline why Demon's Souls used such high-quality textures and looked so much better than other games. It's the same reason why Ratchet & Clank has so much detail and graphical fidelity. Because the entire RAM is free and is fully dedicated to the scene you're viewing. It does not have to worry about keeping other stuff in it because it knows the SSD is fast enough and will send whatever stuff it needs right in time.
Okay
this hilarious thing about the ssd is going out of hand ...the entire ram is free ..sure...I'm tired after the UE5 "only possible on PS5" ..debacle ..i give up trying to convince the usuals
 
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Bo_Hazem

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this hilarious thing about the ssd is going out of hand ...the entire ram is free ..sure...I'm tired после UE5 возможно только на PS5 ..debacle ..i give up trying to convince the usual

Meaning the RAM doesn't need to hold useless assets for too long. The faster the throughput, the less idle data is needed until it's totally vanished when SSD's are as fast as RAM (not happening any time soon).



 

MonarchJT

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Meaning the RAM doesn't need to hold useless assets for too long. The faster the throughput, the less idle data is needed until it's totally vanished when SSD's are as fast as RAM (not happening any time soon).



yes we get that the i/o of the PS5 is fast....is the GPU that is the less powerful between the top next gen console man....and we saw with ue5 demo running on HDD how it ended about that embarassing "only with super fast i/o this type of things can happen". Is tiring ..really
 
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MonarchJT

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I tried to take you seriously, sorry.

No Way Abandon Thread GIF
i was serious for some of you obviously only after the presentation of the PS5 did the SSD and the I / O become the central pivot of the whole architecture of any machine when in reality they are the part that serves to power better the real "engines" ...CPU and especially GPUs. It doesn't matter how fast the SSD is if you have a bottleneck already visible (given the resolution and framerate in many games) in the GPU. At this point it was shouted to the sky that the PS5 has an excellent i / o but as I said before the only next gen example (ue5 engine) that was denied by running the engine VERY WELL from an ancient hdd and on the PC vfxveteran ran the demo at 4k 60fps (with a normal Sammy Evo 970 ssd) proving that once again that the GPU is the center of the machine and at the same time the limiting factor ..as always has been
 
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Stooky

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i was serious for some of you obviously only after the presentation of the PS5 did the SSD and the I / O become the central pivot of the whole architecture of any machine when in reality they are the part that serves to power better the real "engines" ...CPU and especially GPUs. It doesn't matter how fast the SSD is if you have a bottleneck already visible (given the resolution and framerate in many games) in the GPU. At this point it was shouted to the sky that the PS5 has an excellent i / o but as I said before the only next gen example (ue5 engine) that was denied by running the engine VERY WELL from an ancient hdd and on the PC vfxveteran ran the demo at 4k 60fps (with a normal Sammy Evo 970 ssd) proving that once again that the GPU is the center of the machine and at the same time the limiting factor ..as always has been
In regards to UE5 and PS5, you should take your argument to Tim Sweeny he said it.
 
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MonarchJT

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And we are yet to see the original demo running on those machines with so much unique, raw 8K assets instead of barren map with no destruction like the first demo, especially the flying sequence.
if the PS5 10tf GPU can process the 8k texture fast enough you think that more powerful GPUs will have problems? be serious with yourself for one time. Or you gonna tell me that the 64k pieces of the textures streaming are too much to load for a normal ssd ...lol...i repeat again the PS5 demo was 1440 30.fps ...vfxveteran ran the other demo a 4k.60 fps with a Samsung 970 evo. Stop with this fantasyland fud
 
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Bo_Hazem

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if the PS5 10tf GPU can process the 8k texture fast enough you think that more powerful GPUs will have problems? be serious with yourself for one time. Or you gonna tell me that the 64k pieces of the textures streaming are too much to load for a normal ssd ...lol...i repeat again the PS5 demo was 1440 30.fps ...vfxveteran ran the other demo a 4k.60 fps with a Samsung 970 evo. Stop with this fantasyland fud

You see, you are still struggling. Continue, don't be bothered with me cleaning my brain from what you've just typed.

Hot Shots Idiot GIF
 
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MonarchJT

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You see, you are still struggling. Continue, don't be bothered with me cleaning my brain from what you've just typed.

Hot Shots Idiot GIF
you was one of the usuals with that was supporting the complete idiocy that a GPU like the 3080 paired with a normal ssd would not have better result in ue5 than a PS5 .. because magic i / o .... this is blatantly biased fud and facts are out now. I repeat stop it because everyone who understands something about it takes you for ignorant, fanboy or something worse. Your although very fast i / o will never replace a GPU higher than the maximum will load first or will cache less


 
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Bo_Hazem

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you was one of the usuals with that was supporting the complete idiocy that a GPU like the 3080 paired with a normal ssd would not have better result in ue5 than a PS5 .. because magic i / o .... this is blatantly biased fud and facts are out now. I repeat stop it because everyone who understands something about it takes you for ignorant, fanboy or something worse. Your although very fast i / o will never replace a GPU higher than the maximum will load first or will cache less

Quote me, you knobhead. Stop fucking lying already and whining like a little baby. This has nothing to do with GPU prowess, this is about how fast can you feed the GPU and how fast you can offload and upload data from the SSD and keep feeding the GPU. That latest demo is pretty empty and dead, comeback when you run the exact demo.
 
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MonarchJT

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Quote me, you knobhead. Stop fucking lying already and whining like a little baby. This has nothing to due with GPU prowess, this is about how fast can you feed the GPU and how fast you can offload and upload data from the SSD and keep feeding the GPU. That latest demo is pretty empty and dead, comeback when you run the exact demo.
you are completely brainwashed at this point ...are you seeing the other demo running from an hdd ? how much was the texture there 4k?...how many times is faster an normal SSD compared to an hdd? do your math and stop with this fud .a s i said the facts are out..
 
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Bo_Hazem

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you are completely brainwashed at this point ...are you seeing the other demo running from an hdd ? how much was the texture there 4k?...how many is faster an SSD from an hdd? do your math and stop with this fud

You've spammed the thread and derailed it already enough, so could you continue this on other UE5 threads? Thank you.

And yes, that demo on PS5 was as intense as fucking fortnite. I didn't say it, you can go fight Epic Games and their engineers on twitter.
 
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MonarchJT

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You've spammed the thread and derailed it already enough, so could you continue this on other UE5 threads? Thank you.

And yes, that demo on PS5 was as intense as fucking fortnite. I didn't say it, you can go fight Epic Games and their engineers on twitter.
because i read you evangelizing h24 with compete nonsense without anyone stopping you for a second. Calm down the PS5 is great ... but the i / o will not do the miracles you do by saying around at least not with ue5 since it is designed to preload and to cache

and yes sorry for the derailing i close here
 
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I think the Xbox here is mostly being treated as a mini PC due to the united GDK with the PC. Also seems like it's usually combining both version of XSS and XSS.
So here is something I noticed last night. I had Wreckfest installed and they dropped the XSS/XSX version for next gen, and it just tacked literally a 24 gig install file ON TOP of the base Xbox One game running in back compat.

I'm no dev but I''d really have hoped it would have just entirely replaced the base game, but who knows.
 

Bo_Hazem

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So here is something I noticed last night. I had Wreckfest installed and they dropped the XSS/XSX version for next gen, and it just tacked literally a 24 gig install file ON TOP of the base Xbox One game running in back compat.

I'm no dev but I''d really have hoped it would have just entirely replaced the base game, but who knows.

You mean they added instead of replacing? Then go ahead and delete the whole game and reinstall it again, that might just bring the XSX version? MS should force those devs to do so, unless they are happy with the extension card sales. What is the total file size to compare it to what's reported by others on XSX?

Thanks for sharing, mate.
 

jroc74

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That would be a pretty Dumb-Delivery system if true.
Thank you.

Some of us have been saying this for months, probably with the same user.

So here is something I noticed last night. I had Wreckfest installed and they dropped the XSS/XSX version for next gen, and it just tacked literally a 24 gig install file ON TOP of the base Xbox One game running in back compat.

I'm no dev but I''d really have hoped it would have just entirely replaced the base game, but who knows.
Thats interesting as hell. I've said it before, I can appreciate that Sony has separate sku's for PS4, PS5, makes things a lil clearer.
 
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You mean they added instead of replacing? Then go ahead and delete the whole game and reinstall it again, that might just bring the XSX version? MS should force those devs to do so, unless they are happy with the extension card sales. What is the total file size to compare it to what's reported by others on XSX?

Thanks for sharing, mate.
I'll be home in like an hour, will post screens then. IIRC, there are 2 files: base game and xss/xsx upgrade. Don't recall the total size but something like 50? I'll know for sure in an hour.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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I'll be home in like an hour, will post screens then. IIRC, there are 2 files: base game and xss/xsx upgrade. Don't recall the total size but something like 50? I'll know for sure in an hour.

I doubt it'll be that big because I think the XBO file is reported as 12.31GB?


Here is PS5:



I think that 24GB file just replaced the old one.
 
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I doubt it'll be that big because I think the XBO file is reported as 12.31GB?


Here is PS5:



I think that 24GB file just replaced the old one.
I hope that is the case. I'll know for sure soon though. I'll post the screens as soon as I can. Just seems odd to me. XSS updates aren't usually handled this way, but then again most of those patches were free. Once I bought this I had to download separately.
 
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