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Large Youtubers Hide Ownership of CSGO Lottery Site

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I'm not quite sure I feel comfortable giving any money to Valve knowing they let this shit happen, and encourage underage gambling. I might consider boycotting them.

You know I actually really wanted to try this game at one point, then when I was reading up about it I found out about the gambling crap surrounding it and have dodged it and any Valve games like the plague since. There's no way I'm interested in playing these kinds of crappy games. The fact it's not even F2P blows my mind.
 
Online gambling in the US is illegal, no?

Gambling in general is illegal in almost every state.

They get a cut of every transaction, and help facilitate the transactions. That's a lot more involved in the process than a company selling you a booster pack, or you buying a card from a reseller.

What transactions? Valve does not officially support converting hats into real-world money. Your Steam Wallet cash is not real-world money.
 

Arkeband

Banned
This is the video that broke the story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IuXz-cux1M

It is funny seeing the difference between the comments from 5 days ago and the comments coming in now.

lol, some of the YouTube comments are actually worth reading.

"I just came from H3H3, like I said there this is tough to hear. TmarTn was my hero...."
"dafuq? You should be looking up to things like batman and goku, not scrawny douchers on the internet."
 
Gambling in general is illegal in almost every state.



What transactions? Valve does not officially support converting hats into real-world money. Your Steam Wallet cash is not real-world money.

Valve indirectly facilitates off-site transactions by not locking down their marketplace.
 
This is why I dont monetize any of my youtube videos or streams. That shit is a slippery slope, and the things I've seen friends who I formerly respected do in pursuit of the almighty dollar disgust me sometimes. Gaming will always be a labor of love for me, and any content I create is done out of enjoyment and to help other gamers, not to try to make a buck. Not going down THAT fucking rabbit hole.
 

SOR5

Member
So basically the owners of a slot machine

Advertised his slot machine to his young audience
Very possibly could have fabricated the positive outcome of the slot machine
Pretended not to know anything about the slot machine and that they just stumbled across it
Then when caught, tried to retroactively plant evidence that they were honest about the slot machine

Fuck me what a mess
 
Valve facilitates off-site transactions by not locking down their marketplace.

This is the equivelant of saying the NFL is facilitating illegal gambling because people are gambling with their valuable sports memorabilia as collateral.

Third parties are manipulating systems that are clearly not intended for gambling. While Valve may benefit second hand, they hold no liability to regulate what the third party is doing, beyond ensuring that the experience is not interfering with the system working for the majority of players operating the game as it was meant to be played. Otherwise, again, you'd also be outlawing Magic cards and every other blind box product whose manufacturers may "indirectly" benefit from gambling.
 
You know I actually really wanted to try this game at one point, then when I was reading up about it I found out about the gambling crap surrounding it and have dodged it and any Valve games like the plague since. There's no way I'm interested in playing these kinds of crappy games. The fact it's not even F2P blows my mind.

As a heads up, if you are trying to avoid giving money to Valve, avoid buying games on Steam. Valve gets a significant cut of money from purchases.
Don't go to any grey market sites though.
 

Bluth54

Member
They just use real world denotations, and trade at a 1:1 ratio with real world currency...that'll totally fly.

Much like how Disney made Disney Dollars that traded at a 1:1 ratio with real world currency.

What these youtubers were doing was pretty clearly illegal, but everything Valve has been doing is legal. Having your own currency that people can buy with real money is legal. Selling blind boxes to people, including children, is legal. Providing a marketplace to sell items is legal.
 

TheYanger

Member
Gambling in general is illegal in almost every state.



What transactions? Valve does not officially support converting hats into real-world money. Your Steam Wallet cash is not real-world money.

You only use it as a real money replacement at an exact 1:1 ratio. What you're saying isn't going to help if this gets to where Valve is under the radar of the law here. There is a MASSIVE difference between selling a randomized commodity that has no intrinsic value and letting a secondary market emerge all on its own (Ala trading cards), and CREATING the marketplace and taking a cut from every sale, and whether the spacebucks are spacebucks or not the cut that valve gets directly from it is VERY real. in fact, if you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend steam wallet dollars have no real world value, then valve is actually earning every dollar that people use in this gambling, not just the cut they take for the transaction. Like, either it's all relatively liquid (which it is, due to how easy it is to convert it into real world cash, b ut you're right that Valve doesn't actually run that part themselves), or it's not liquid at all, in which case valve is taking every dime related to this from the beginning (Which is sort of true, but in theory the money is used to buy games eventually, so in that sense valve is only earning the interest on the invested wallet money as well as the percentage they charge for the transactions).

Much like how Disney made Disney Dollars that traded at a 1:1 ratio with real world currency.

What these youtubers were doing was pretty clearly illegal, but everything Valve has been doing is legal. Having your own currency that people can buy with real money is legal. Selling blind boxes to people, including children, is legal. Providing a marketplace to sell items is legal.

Last I checked Disney didn't create a Disney Dollar Casino in Disneyland or Disney stores that let children gamble their disney dollars and encourage them to spend more disney dollars with the sole purpose of gambling them.

There is a MASSIVE difference here.

This is the equivelant of saying the NFL is facilitating illegal gambling because people are gambling with their valuable sports memorabilia as collateral.

Third parties are manipulating systems that are clearly not intended for gambling. While Valve may benefit second hand, they hold no liability to regulate what the third party is doing, beyond ensuring that the experience is not interfering with the system working for the majority of players operating the game as it was meant to be played. Otherwise, again, you'd also be outlawing Magic cards and every other blind box product whose manufacturers may "indirectly" benefit from gambling.

The NFL doesn't take a cut from every transaction in Vegas. Bad example on your part.

Similarly, Valve runs all of the systems, supplies all of the APIs, does literally everything they can TO support this practice. It's not hard to prevent it, but they don't even try, because it makes them shitloads of money. It's not any different from G2A and the like knowingly selling stolen product keys, but going "OH WE DIDNT KNOW"
 

RawNuts

Member
This is the video that broke the story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IuXz-cux1M

It is funny seeing the difference between the comments from 5 days ago and the comments coming in now.
The comments made from days ago are so painful to read, holy shit.

The amount of "bro, why you hatin? you must just be jelly; you just a little youtube shit" theme in the comments is incredible. Though it must feel incredible to have an army of loyal morons at your disposal; like a cult leader.
 
This is the equivelant of saying the NFL is facilitating illegal gambling because people are gambling with their valuable sports memorabilia as collateral.

Third parties are manipulating systems that are clearly not intended for gambling. While Valve may benefit second hand, they hold no liability to regulate what the third party is doing, beyond ensuring that the experience is not interfering with the system working for the majority of players operating the game as it was meant to be played. Otherwise, again, you'd also be outlawing Magic cards and every other blind box product whose manufacturers may "indirectly" benefit from gambling.

Well for starters it's not like that at all. Not even remotely. Lol

If they bear no responsibility, if companies are taking advantage of how Valve operates, wouldn't it be in their best interest to lock down their marketplace? Why have technology in place that let's 3rd parties scrub account data, why do they allow users to co-opt their steam accounts? Valve could stop this but they choose not to.
 
As a heads up, if you are trying to avoid giving money to Valve, avoid buying games on Steam. Valve gets a significant cut of money from purchases.
Don't go to any grey market sites though.

I've been moving away from Steam for a while anyway. I have a library of games there I won't drop obviously and still buy a few here and there if the price seems good, but in general I shop around now. Most of my old Steam friends list have migrated to other services like DIscord and TS as their main communications anyway and a lot of them have been that way for long time. It's not much of an issue for me to dodge Steam and not rely on it 100%.

My main stance is on avoiding Valve's own games though since they're the ones pushing this crap. I'll still jump on a great deal if it's there though since I don't always have the option of paying more.
 

Paz

Member
I seriously hope that there is some law out there that puts the guy in prison who founded this gambling site and then pretending he 'found' it in a video.
 
Don't worry, unless he insults his audience or supports being a decent human being this will will blow over in a week. Welcome to the games industry.
 

epmode

Member
Much like how Disney made Disney Dollars that traded at a 1:1 ratio with real world currency.

What these youtubers were doing was pretty clearly illegal, but everything Valve has been doing is legal. Having your own currency that people can buy with real money is legal. Selling blind boxes to people, including children, is legal. Providing a marketplace to sell items is legal.

Valve's marketplace is comparable to Japanese pachinko parlors. Gambling for cash is technically illegal in Japan so the pachinko machines only dispense points that are ostensibly intended to be exchanged for prizes. ..but many pachinko parlors are right next to booths that converts these points for cash. It's gambling in all but name.
 

Bluth54

Member
Last I checked Disney didn't create a Disney Dollar Casino in Disneyland or Disney stores that let children gamble their disney dollars and encourage them to spend more disney dollars with the sole purpose of gambling them.

There is a MASSIVE difference here.

Valve doesn't create gambling site and you can't use Steam currency to gamble on third party sites. Valve also doesn't encourage people to gamble skins in any way.
 

TheYanger

Member
Valve's marketplace is comparable to Japanese pachinko parlors. Gambling for cash is technically illegal in Japan so the pachinko machines only dispense points that are ostensibly intended to be exchanged for prizes. ..but many pachinko parlors are right next to booths that converts these points for cash. It's gambling in all but name.

It's exactly like pachinko. But that shit doesn't fly here in the US of A.

Valve doesn't create gambling site and you can't use Steam currency to gamble on third party sites. Valve also doesn't encourage people to gamble skins in any way.

lol. Valve doesn't encourage it? They run the fucking marketplace that you sell them on. They created the inventory system and api that lets this shit happen, they KNOW it goes on, because they make shitloads of money off of it. It's not hard at all for them to stop it, but they don't anyway.
 

Maximo

Member
The comments made from days ago are so painful to read, holy shit.

The amount of "bro, why you hatin? you must just be jelly; you just a little youtube shit" theme in the comments is incredible. Though it must feel incredible to have an army of loyal morons at your disposal; like a cult leader.

Man Tim HIMSELF posted a comment 6 days ago..

Yes, I founded CSGOLotto.com.

That isn't a secret, I don't know why this is being treated as breaking news lol. I enjoyed playing on other sites and saw ways to make improvements to them, so I put a team together and built my own site.

Making accusations that my winnings on the site and reactions are fake simply because I own a portion of the site is unjustified. Every single game that I played was real, every single skin that I won or lost was real. So please don't throw around false accusations and slander.

Any questions you have, feel free to ask! :)


What a piece of shit.
 
This really makes me sick. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what the best approach is to dealing with these type of people. It's such a grey area and a legal mess on all fronts concerning YouTube, Valve and the CSGO Lotto site. I guess you can leave YouTube out of it since it's just a messenger of sorts but it's still difficult to deal with. The problem is, it's not recognized as gambling in any Jurisdiction so it's hard to combat behavior such as this, even though a large percentage of gamers now know what's going on.
 

MUnited83

For you.
The NFL doesn't take a cut from every transaction in Vegas. Bad example on your part.

Neither does Valve. Most people prefer to trade off their skins off Steam for actual real money. Valve doesn't see a cent of that. The fucking steam wallet limit can even cover 1/4 of the most sought out skins, roflmao

It's exactly like pachinko. But that shit doesn't fly here in the US of A.



lol. Valve doesn't encourage it? They run the fucking marketplace that you sell them on. They created the inventory system and api that lets this shit happen, they KNOW it goes on, because they make shitloads of money off of it. It's not hard at all for them to stop it, but they don't anyway.

Both of those features have great legitimate uses. What you're trying to advocate for? Close down steam market place and steam trading completely? That's the dumbest suggestion i've heard yet.
 

Bluth54

Member
lol. Valve doesn't encourage it? They run the fucking marketplace that you sell them on. They created the inventory system and api that lets this shit happen, they KNOW it goes on, because they make shitloads of money off of it. It's not hard at all for them to stop it, but they don't anyway.

If the marketplace exists purely to encourage gambling they're doing a pretty poor job of it, the Steam community market doesn't let you cash out for real world money and the maximum amount you can sell items for doesn't even come close to letting you sell an item for what the top tier skins sell for.

If anything the marketplace exists to let you make steam credit off of items without having to go to any third party sites.
 

Zemm

Member
Valve definitely have something to answer for in all this, there's no way they didn't know underage gambling was going on with their game and tools they've created, they could have easily locked it down more but didn't because of $$$. Don't understand how people can defend them in this situation.
 
You only use it as a real money replacement at an exact 1:1 ratio. What you're saying isn't going to help if this gets to where Valve is under the radar of the law here. There is a MASSIVE difference between selling a randomized commodity that has no intrinsic value and letting a secondary market emerge all on its own (Ala trading cards), and CREATING the marketplace and taking a cut from every sale, and whether the spacebucks are spacebucks or not the cut that valve gets directly from it is VERY real. in fact, if you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend steam wallet dollars have no real world value, then valve is actually earning every dollar that people use in this gambling, not just the cut they take for the transaction. Like, either it's all relatively liquid (which it is, due to how easy it is to convert it into real world cash, b ut you're right that Valve doesn't actually run that part themselves), or it's not liquid at all, in which case valve is taking every dime related to this from the beginning (Which is sort of true, but in theory the money is used to buy games eventually, so in that sense valve is only earning the interest on the invested wallet money as well as the percentage they charge for the transactions).

Valve is not creating the marketplace in which skins are gambled. Steam currency is not real currency, because you cannot convert it back into real money (unlike Bitcoins or gold). It doesn't matter what the exchange rate is, sorry.

The NFL doesn't take a cut from every transaction in Vegas. Bad example on your part.

Valve does not take a cut of a skin I gamble on CS:GOLottery.

Similarly, Valve runs all of the systems, supplies all of the APIs, does literally everything they can TO support this practice. It's not hard to prevent it, but they don't even try, because it makes them shitloads of money. It's not any different from G2A and the like knowingly selling stolen product keys, but going "OH WE DIDNT KNOW"

Third parties are manipulating systems that are clearly not intended for gambling. While Valve may benefit second hand, they hold no liability to regulate what the third party is doing, beyond ensuring that the experience is not interfering with the system working for the majority of players operating the game as it was meant to be played. Otherwise, again, you'd also be outlawing Magic cards and every other blind box product whose manufacturers may "indirectly" benefit from gambling.
 
Concerning the point that Valve is doing gambling with a loophole (from h3h3's video), as far as I understand csgo crates are as much gambling as blind figurines collectible boxes, the little toys in capsules, magic the gathering cards packs, etc. Are those considered gambling too? I can sell my capsule toy on ebay, my magic card or my figurine like a gun skin too.
 
Well for starters it's not like that at all. Not even remotely. Lol

If they bear no responsibility, if companies are taking advantage of how Valve operates, wouldn't it be in their best interest to lock down their marketplace? Why have technology in place that let's 3rd parties scrub account data, why do they allow users to co-opt their steam accounts? Valve could stop this but they choose not to.

Why would it be within their interests to lock down their marketplace when they aren't legally required to do so?

Providing an API does not mean Valve is complacent with literally everything people do with it. The law doesn't work that way, sorry.
 

collige

Banned
Last I checked Disney didn't create a Disney Dollar Casino in Disneyland or Disney stores that let children gamble their disney dollars and encourage them to spend more disney dollars with the sole purpose of gambling them.
This is pretty much exactly what Chuck E Cheese's, Carnival games, D&B's, etc does though. You buy fake bucks with real bucks in a one way transaction and use the fake bucks to either plain old have fun (i.e. buy games on Steam) or try to get crappy trinkets with them by wagering them on crappy games of "skill".
 

TheYanger

Member
Valve is not creating the marketplace in which skins are gambled. Steam currency is not real currency, because you cannot convert it back into real money (unlike Bitcoins or gold). It doesn't matter what the exchange rate is, sorry.



Valve does not take a cut of a skin I gamble on CS:GOLottery.

Um, are you intentionally being dense?

Of course valve created the marketplace. The skin is gambled, no money changes hands, good deal. The skin is then SOLD on the marketplace, for "Steam bucks" (which as far as valve are concerned are real money, since they exhange them for real money themselves), and valve takes a cut of these steam bucks (again, real money to valve, because they are used in exchange for goods and services on a market that they control), and then the person who gets the money uses them to buy keys on the marketplace, or directly from valve (Again, they get a cut of this, because it's once again real money to valve), and THEN finally that person sells those keys on third party sites at a slight loss (This is the only step of the process valve doesn't directly profit, IN REAL MONEY, from).

This is pretty much exactly what Chuck E Cheese's, Carnival games, D&B's, etc does though. You buy fake bucks with real bucks in a one way transaction and use the fake bucks to either plain old have fun (i.e. buy games on Steam) or try to get crappy trinkets with them by wagering them on crappy games of "skill".

It's not the same thing unless Chuck E Cheese's starts running a token-based craps game between patrons in their back alley, and takes a cut of everyone trying to cash out from that. I have no doubt that there are some shady ass Chuck. E Cheese's around, but I somehow doubt that's a standard corporately sponsored policy in any case.

The part that you're describing is analagous to the part where they sell you a key to open the box. The part that that doesn't cover is the part where then the item you get from the box has a cash value that they then facilitate the gambling with and sale of, and continue to rake profit in every time money changes hands.
 

Zaventem

Member
I literally just finished watching this. Ethan the detective at it again. I wonder if that guy suing has a case now.
 

Syder

Member
Both of these guys are fairly successful former COD commentators. I guess as COD interest died out they needed to make money through other means. Shame they chose such nefarious means.
 

MUnited83

For you.
Um, are you intentionally being dense?

Of course valve created the marketplace. The skin is gambled, no money changes hands, good deal. The skin is then SOLD on the marketplace, for "Steam bucks" (which as far as valve are concerned are real money, since they exhange them for real money themselves), and valve takes a cut of these steam bucks (again, real money to valve, because they are used in exchange for goods and services on a market that they control), and then the person who gets the money uses them to buy keys on the marketplace, or directly from valve (Again, they get a cut of this, because it's once again real money to valve), and THEN finally that person sells those keys on third party sites at a slight loss (This is the only step of the process valve doesn't directly profit, IN REAL MONEY, from).



It's not the same thing unless Chuck E Cheese's starts running a token-based craps game between patrons in their back alley, and takes a cut of everyone trying to cash out from that. I have no doubt that there are some shady ass Chuck. E Cheese's around, but I somehow doubt that's a standard corporately sponsored policy in any case.
The part that you're describing is analagous to the part where they sell you a key to open the box. The part that that doesn't cover is the part where then the item you get from the box has a cash value that they then facilitate the gambling with and sale of, and continue to rake profit in every time money changes hands.
Once again you seem to claim Valve are the ones runnning the lottery sites.

They aren.t


Also let me know how people are magically selling their super high value skins on the steam market if the max you can sell a item is at 400$.
The cash value is the same it cash value that fucking Magic the Gathering cards also have inhenrently. And no, Valve doesn't get anything from off-steam trades so no, they don't "rake profit in everytime money changes hands"
 

TheYanger

Member
Just watched this, that's fucking insane. I can't believe there are people who pay that much money for a digital weapon skin.

And they're mostly that valuable purely because of their virtual currency factor. If you literally could not gamble them somehow, the numbers would be FAR lower.

Once again you seem to claim Valve are the ones runnning the lottery sites.

They aren.t


Also let me know how people are magically selling their super high value skins on the steam market if the max you can sell a item is at 400$.

Keys, the currency used to move money around that valve also sells. and No, valve doesn't RUN the lottery sites, WINK AND NOD, they just run the site that gives the pachinko balls out knowingly so that these sites can operate. There are lots of things they could do to stop it, their APIs basically made it an inevitability, they are fully aware of it, or do you think valve is run by actual blind idiots who have no idea what goes on in their site? They do literally nothing to curb it, because they make a ton of money.
 
They just use real world denotations, and trade at a 1:1 ratio with real world currency...that'll totally fly.
And if you're a US citizen and want to list more than 200 things on the market in a year, Valve requires you to provide tax information, and they'll report your earnings to the IRS if you make more than $20k in market sales a year. If steambux aren't 'money' then why does the IRS care how many gabens you make?
 

TheYanger

Member
And if you're a US citizen and want to list more than 200 things on the market in a year, Valve requires you to provide tax information, and they'll report your earnings to the IRS if you make more than $20k in market sales a year. If steambux aren't 'money' then why does the IRS care how many gabens you make?

Didn't even know that, but yeah that's far more damning even.
 
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