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[littleworm]

Concerning the point that Valve is doing gambling with a loophole (from h3h3's video), as far as I understand csgo crates are as much gambling as blind figurines collectible boxes, the little toys in capsules, magic the gathering cards packs, etc. Are those considered gambling too? I can sell my capsule toy on ebay, my magic card or my figurine like a gun skin too.

The issue on valves part isn't the blind crates itself, the issue on valve parts is that they willingly and knowingly facilitate the gambling of items on other sites. All the items bet on these sites CSGO Lounge/Jackpot are only possible because Valve allows it to happen, through the use of steam accounts and the steam marketplace, the items that are being bet never leave valves "possession" they will always exist on Steams servers. It wouldn't be to difficult for valve to flag the high traffic bots that move the items from the users possession to the sites possession and put restrictions on those if they were serious in limiting/stopping these gambling sites. Again there might not be any legal wrongdoing here on valves part but I do hope this particular case brings attention to what is happening and convinces valve to address the issue.

 

[Dennis]

To those unfamiliar, the item markets (CSGO in particular) are freaking crazy, man.

Is this what Valve is these days?

Anyone else feel sad?

 

[jim2point0]

"I found a new site that I think you guys are gonna like"

You dun goofed.

He simply mispoke. He meant to say "I founded a new site." It totally makes sense now!

Seriously though.... how is this not fraud?

 

[MUnited83]

And they're mostly that valuable purely because of their virtual currency factor. If you literally could not gamble them somehow, the numbers would be FAR lower.



Keys, the currency used to move money around that valve also sells. and No, valve doesn't RUN the lottery sites, WINK AND NOD, they just run the site that gives the pachinko balls out knowingly so that these sites can operate. There are lots of things they could do to stop it, their APIs basically made it an inevitability, they are fully aware of it, or do you think valve is run by actual blind idiots who have no idea what goes on in their site? They do literally nothing to curb it, because they make a ton of money.

The same fucking way Magic the Gathering cards are sold, yes, so what?
Their APIs are there to facilitate trading, not facilitating gambling. You can't kill gambling without killing trading, and that would be the stupidest possible solution.

 

[CrimsonGun]

Both of these guys are fairly successful former COD commentators. I guess as COD interest died out they needed to make money through other means. Shame they chose such nefarious means.

Tmartn makes a lot of Cod videos still. He is basically the golden child for activision. Gets early access, exclusive videos, gets to meet developers and basically on the payroll of the company. In a way that in and of itself is shady.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Um, are you intentionally being dense?

Of course valve created the marketplace. The skin is gambled, no money changes hands, good deal. The skin is then SOLD on the marketplace, for "Steam bucks" (which as far as valve are concerned are real money, since they exhange them for real money themselves), and valve takes a cut of these steam bucks (again, real money to valve, because they are used in exchange for goods and services on a market that they control), and then the person who gets the money uses them to buy keys on the marketplace, or directly from valve (Again, they get a cut of this, because it's once again real money to valve), and THEN finally that person sells those keys on third party sites at a slight loss (This is the only step of the process valve doesn't directly profit, IN REAL MONEY, from).

You're really, really trying your hardest to find a way to make this sound illegal. This is what actually matters, from a legal standpoint:

- Valve did not create the venues in which skins are gambled and is not complacent in them. All arguments should really stop here, because these are the sites that are actually facilitating the (potentially) illegal part.

- Steam currency has no real-world value. Unlike Bitcoin or casino chips, I cannot turn in my Steam currency for real money.

That's all that matters. As far as the law is concerned, CS:GO skins are just the digital equivelant of baseball cards. Sorry.

 

[El_Chino]

Is this what Valve is these days?

Anyone else feel sad?

 

[ScientificPizza]

And if you're a US citizen and want to list more than 200 things on the market in a year, Valve requires you to provide tax information, and they'll report your earnings to the IRS if you make more than $20k in market sales a year. If steambux aren't 'money' then why does the IRS care how many gabens you make?

^

No one is claiming that valve is running the gambling sites themselves, but they're not exactly making any actions to stop them either. The gambling sites are driving up the demand for weapons skins, both new and bought on the steam marketplace, all where valve will make a profit. They're profiting from them in a very real, if not entirely direct, way.

Not only are they not discouraging it with their actions, they also haven't taken any kind of verbal stand against it.

There's a reason why this is an issue largely unique with valve games, and it's not because of their popularity.

 

[213372bu]

My boy Ethan back at it again.

The same fucking way Magic the Gathering cards are sold, yes, so what?
Their APIs are there to facilitate trading, not facilitating gambling. You can't kill gambling without killing trading, and that would be the stupidest possible solution.

Well it'd actually be pretty easy.

Valve could both crack down on their trading bots and/or not allow them to use the Steam plug-in at their sites.

 

[TheYanger]

The same fucking way Magic the Gathering cards are sold, yes, so what?
Their APIs are there to facilitate trading, not facilitating gambling. You can't kill gambling without killing trading, and that would be the stupidest possible solution.

A) Not the same way magic cards can be sold, again, Wizards of the Coast has no control over the secondary market. They don't enable it in ANY way. Valve cannot say the same.

B) The apis literally let the sites take control of bots that trade shit around automatically to dissemenate rewards and such. There is no LEGITIMATE use for this kind of stuff being allowed. I mean, shit, I could trade items in Diablo 2, but Blizzard didn't run a marketplace for it that let me tie into the gambling module on D2JSP and automatically do the work for everyone. They could absolutely stop this, they do not give a fuck because it make sthem BANK.

 

[MUnited83]

My boy Ethan back at it again.



Well it'd actually be pretty easy.

Valve could both crack down on their trading bots and/or not allow them to use the Steam plug-in at their sites.

The SteamAPI is open, as it damn well should be. And even if they cracked down on trading bots, trading would still exist, and people would continue to find a way.

A) Not the same way magic cards can be sold, again, Wizards of the Coast has no control over the secondary market. They don't enable it in ANY way. Valve cannot say the same.

B) The apis literally let the sites take control of bots that trade shit around automatically to dissemenate rewards and such. There is no LEGITIMATE use for this kind of stuff being allowed. I mean, shit, I could trade items in Diablo 2, but Blizzard didn't run a marketplace for it that let me tie into the gambling module on D2JSP and automatically do the work for everyone. They could absolutely stop this, they do not give a fuck because it make sthem BANK.

That's not how the API works, no. The bots don't work through the API. The only thing that the API does is letting you sign in on websites your steam account and subsequently see your inventory and send trade offers. This has a FUCKLOAD of a legitimate uses. What the bots do is go through that API like legitimate users would. You can't block this without blocking legitimate uses. This is a fact. Try to do like, at least a minimal ammount of research, will ya?


Also, why are you talking about Diablo 2 instead of Diablo 3?

 

[UnforgivenTwin]

Tmartn makes a lot of Cod videos still. He is basically the golden child for activision. Gets early access, exclusive videos, gets to meet developers and basically on the payroll of the company. In a way that in and of itself is shady.

He also just did mo-cap for infinite warfare.

 

[collige]

It's not the same thing unless Chuck E Cheese's starts running a token-based craps game between patrons in their back alley, and takes a cut of everyone trying to cash out from that. I have no doubt that there are some shady ass Chuck. E Cheese's around, but I somehow doubt that's a standard corporately sponsored policy in any case.

The part that you're describing is analagous to the part where they sell you a key to open the box. The part that that doesn't cover is the part where then the item you get from the box has a cash value that they then facilitate the gambling with and sale of, and continue to rake profit in every time money changes hands.

- The items only have a cash value if you're able to get cash for them, which as has been pointed out repeatedly is something that is actively disallowed by Valve.

- Your comparison to a shady backroom craps game fails for two reasons:
1. Valve isn't running the games in any way, shape, or form, and providing API access to Steam inventories is in no way comparable
2. Valve doesn't make money off of the actual gambling taking place, since the bets involve a winner take all scenario based around donating items to bots and ignoring the very, very obvious warnings in place telling you not to give items away to strange accounts. Valve's cut only comes into play when/if someone decides to take the items they won and try to pawn them off on the marketplace instead of using them to bet more or (god forbid) actually equipping the skins

 

[Zemm]

Is this what Valve is these days?

Anyone else feel sad?

It's a damn shame how far Valve have fallen for me. I'm way past the sad stage and in the indifference stage, I don't care what they do nowadays.

 

[Phoenix944]

It's a smart move, disgusting, but smart.

 

[ScientificPizza]

It's a smart move, disgusting, but smart.

If this is smart then I wanna be dumb

 

[UnforgivenTwin]

It's a smart move, disgusting, but smart.

It seems pretty stupid to me.

 

[Ghost Slayer]

lol what a mess. I really want to know if this kind of gambling is in other games like LoL since my cousins love watching these videos -_-

 

[Bear Force One]

Federal Prison and seizure of assets ahoy. This
Guy is scum of the lowest order.

 

[boredandlazy]

Why is that guy TMartin walking through his house whilst doing a video? It's hilarious.

 

[Coreda]

Just watched this, that's fucking insane. I can't believe there are people who pay that much money for a digital weapon skin.

It's ridiculous. I still don't understand the transition from the modding scene of earlier versions of CS where all kinds of interesting community-created weapon models and of course re-textures were about to today where the community is buying mere re-textures with actual cash and thinking it's the bees knees.

Why is that guy TMartin walking through his house whilst doing a video? It's hilarious.

Look at what gambling buys you, kiddos.

 

[shanafan]

Very good video by H3H3.

Question on this site.. I am not sure how people win money. It sounds like you just bet money to win skins for CS:GO, so how does someone actually win money? Do the ones who "donate" the skin receive the money?

Not planning on using the website, I barely play CS:GO, and I don't gamble so not sure on how the system works.

 

[SOR5]

Why is that guy TMartin walking through his house whilst doing a video? It's hilarious.

His really nice, funded-by-completely-legitimate-means-I-promise house?

 

[ScientificPizza]

Very good video by H3H3.

Question on this site.. I am not sure how people win money. It sounds like you just bet money to win skins for CS:GO, so how does someone actually win money? Do the ones who "donate" the skin receive the money?

Not planning on using the website, I barely play CS:GO, and I don't gamble so not sure on how the system works.

It's not that you're directly winning money, it's that you gamble an item of lesser value and potentially win one of greater value that you can then sell for a profit.

 

[MThanded]

It's a smart move, disgusting, but smart.

A smart move would have been to not incorporate the business in your name.

If there was no direct tie to him or the other guy there would be no story here.

What's smart about this?

 

[littleworm]

Very good video by H3H3.

Question on this site.. I am not sure how people win money. It sounds like you just bet money to win skins for CS:GO, so how does someone actually win money? Do the ones who "donate" the skin receive the money?

Not planning on using the website, I barely play CS:GO, and I don't gamble so not sure on how the system works.

I can't speak for this specific site, but there are other sites where you can sell your guns and knives for money.

 

[Dennis]

Why is that guy TMartin walking through his house whilst doing a video? It's hilarious.

If you had bought a mansion with the money you made from facilitating underage gambling you would want to show it off too.

 

[TheYanger]

- The items only have a cash value if you're able to get cash for them, which as has been pointed out repeatedly is something that is actively disallowed by Valve.

- Your comparison to a shady backroom craps game fails for two reasons:
1. Valve isn't running the games in any way, shape, or form, and providing API access to Steam inventories is in no way comparable
2. Valve doesn't make money off of the actual gambling taking place, since the bets involve a winner take all scenario based around donating items to bots and ignoring the very, very obvious warnings in place telling you not to give items away to strange accounts. Valve's cut only comes into play when/if someone decides to take the items they won and try to pawn them off on the marketplace instead of using them to bet more or (god forbid) actually equipping the skins

If they don't have a cash value, why can I buy things that cost money at the exact price that they cost in steambucks? They have value to valve. Why does valve want to report these earnings to the IRS as pointed on the last page? That's funny, I thought they were only spacebucks.

1. Valve is ENABLING the games with a wink and a nod. They don't even try to prevent it in the least, even though it happens in their fucking house with their fucking table. If you run a gambling racket out of my backyard I'm complicit in it even if I just sit inside making the drinks for everyone.
2. Wrong. Spacebucks might be 'spacebucks' to you, but to valve they are real ass money, every cent of spacebucks in existence is actual cash sitting in valve's bank, any time they're getting you to spend in in order to buy an item or key just to gamble with, that money is theirs. They would PREFER that you sit there buying items and keys to trade around rather than using your bucks for actual products like games, why? because if you buy a game they have to pay out to a publisher. If you sit on a glowing knife valve is just taking your money and using it without any payout from them at all.

If you buy a key to use as tradebait, whether on the marketplace or from valve directly, you've just given them ACTUAL money. If you trade something for 200 keys, they just got their cut for every single one, even if you don't notice the difference. If you cash out keys for cash, yeah they don't get a cut of the final cash you earned, but they got a cut of every single key you bought to facilitate the transfer of spacebucks to real bucks.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

And if you're a US citizen and want to list more than 200 things on the market in a year, Valve requires you to provide tax information, and they'll report your earnings to the IRS if you make more than $20k in market sales a year. If steambux aren't 'money' then why does the IRS care how many gabens you make?

You technically have to report Chuck E. Cheese tickets to the IRS. It doesn't mean they have actual real-world value (beyond the paper they're printed on), and that Chuck E. Cheese is a gambling racket.

 

[MUnited83]

If they don't have a cash value, why can I buy things that cost money at the exact price that they cost in steambucks? They have value to valve. Why does valve want to report these earnings to the IRS as pointed on the last page? That's funny, I thought they were only spacebucks.

This is true for all spacebucks in existence. This is not something exclusive to steam wallet.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

2. Wrong. Spacebucks might be 'spacebucks' to you, but to valve they are real ass money, every cent of spacebucks in existence is actual cash sitting in valve's bank, any time they're getting you to spend in in order to buy an item or key just to gamble with, that money is theirs.

So the $20 I have sitting in my Steam account is backed by "actual cash" somewhere?

 

[Bluth54]

The SteamAPI is open, as it damn well should be. And even if they cracked down on trading bots, trading would still exist, and people would continue to find a way.


That's not how the API works, no. The bots don't work through the API. The only thing that the API does is letting you sign in on websites your steam account and subsequently see your inventory and send trade offers. This has a FUCKLOAD of a legitimate uses. What the bots do is go through that API like legitimate users would. You can't block this without blocking legitimate uses. This is a fact. Try to do like, at least a minimal ammount of research, will ya?


Also, why are you talking about Diablo 2 instead of Diablo 3?

Not only that but an API doesn't need to exist to trade a physical product because a physical product is different from a digital product.

 

[BlackBuzzard]

He also just did mo-cap for infinite warfare.

Lol i bet he gets removed now.

 

[ScientificPizza]

So the $20 I have sitting in my Steam account is backed by "actual cash" somewhere?

Yeah. How do you think that money got into the steam ecosystem to begin with? It's not like valve gave everyone an allowance to start with.

 

[gunslikewhoa]

This isn't going away. People might forget but will the law? IANAL but it's pretty clear cut that this shit is illegal.

I wouldn't be so certain that it is. I'm not talking about the nondisclosure of ownership. They're clearly fucked in that regard. So dumb. The gambling aspect, though...I don't know, but probably not.

There is no money exchanging hands, not even between players. The currency being wagered is earned/purchased from a party with which they have no affiliation. They are collecting 8% rake in skins. I'm not sure how that works. It looks like the betting pools that are made on the site each involve a lot of skins that vary widely in value. I imagine they keep whatever skins add up to ~8% and resell them, of course.

This is how laws get made sometimes, though. The market gets big enough, gets this negative attention, class-action lawsuit, 'think of the children,' etc. and soon enough all of these sites are ordered to shut down.

 

[boredandlazy]

Look at what gambling buys you, kiddos.

His really nice, funded-by-completely-legitimate-means-I-promise house?

If you had bought a mansion with the money you made from facilitating underage gambling you would want to show it off too.

I understand that he's a slimy prick, but really is this like a new trend for youtube videos or something? The h3h video was parodying it too.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Yeah. How do you think that money got into the steam ecosystem to begin with? It's not like valve have everyone an allowance to start with.

You give Valve money and in exchange they give you a virtual item (Steam funds), which has no inherent value and cannot be traded for actual cash. You could just as easily argue that Overwatch skins are "real ass money" because money changes hands to get them. Valve doesn't have a vault full of Steam currency that they use to buy actual goods with.

 

[M.W.]

So this is why CSGO is popular? Fucking skins for a knife? No wonder Overwatch followed suit.

Never liked Tmarty, always seemed off.

 

[ahdurian]

I never really liked Tom, but enjoyed watching Tmart play games....though this seems really fucking shady......

 

[Disxo]

So this is why CSGO is popular? Fucking skins for a knife? No wonder Overwatch followed suit.

Not exactly, the game part is awesome, but skins really boosted its popularity.

 

[Kastrioti]

Is this a problem with CS 1.6?

 

[TheYanger]

You give Valve money and in exchange they give you a virtual item (Steam funds), which has no inherent value and cannot be traded for actual cash. You could just as easily argue that Overwatch skins are "real ass money" because money changes hands to get them.

Except that Blizzard doesn't then encourage other people to give them real ass money to try and buy your skin off of you, or make them 1/1000+ drops to encourage them to give LOTS of real ass money for them in trade. Or provide the means for me to make a site to then gamble them on. or run the marketplace that we then sell them on and trade them on.

Wait, so it's actually not at all the same!

So the $20 I have sitting in my Steam account is backed by "actual cash" somewhere?

Of course it is. You can use it for goods that Valve doesn't produce, they have to keep enough of it liquid to then exchange it, as real money, with the publisher of whoever you buy items from.

So this is why CSGO is popular? Fucking skins for a knife? No wonder Overwatch followed suit.

Never liked Tmarty, always seemed off.

There's actually almost nothing the same between the two games models.

 

[bloodyroarxx]

Man JoshOG too bummer his stream was fun to watch but fuck that shady shit.

I hope they all have FANTASTIC lawyers

 

[M.W.]

Man JoshOG too bummer his stream was fun to watch but fuck that shady shit.

I hope they all have FANTASTIC lawyers

I BET they do.

 

[collige]

1. Valve is ENABLING the games with a wink and a nod. They don't even try to prevent it in the least, even though it happens in their fucking house with their fucking table. If you run a gambling racket out of my backyard I'm complicit in it even if I just sit inside making the drinks for everyone.

This is a grossly inaccurate way of describing how APIs work. What exactly, technologically speaking, do you think counts as the "wink" and "nod" here that applies exclusively to CS:GO gambling and not other uses of the API?

Except that Blizzard doesn't then encourage other people to give them real ass money to try and buy your skin off of you, or make them 1/1000+ drops to encourage them to give LOTS of real ass money for them in trade. Or provide the means for me to make a site to then gamble them on. or run the marketplace that we then sell them on and trade them on.

Wait, so it's actually not at all the same!

Isn't this exactly what the RMAH was?

 

[MUnited83]

Except that Blizzard doesn't then encourage other people to give them real ass money to try and buy your skin off of you, or make them 1/1000+ drops to encourage them to give LOTS of real ass money for them in trade. Or provide the means for me to make a site to then gamble them on. or run the marketplace that we then sell them on and trade them on.

Wait, so it's actually not at all the same!



Of course it is. You can use it for goods that Valve doesn't produce, they have to keep enough of it liquid to then exchange it, as real money, with the publisher of whoever you buy items from.

The "means" are trading tools, nothing more than that. Do you not realize this?


Also yes, Blizzard never ran a real money auction house ever, am i right?

 

[ScientificPizza]

You give Valve money and in exchange they give you a virtual item (Steam funds), which has no inherent value and cannot be traded for actual cash. You could just as easily argue that Overwatch skins are "real ass money" because money changes hands to get them. Valve doesn't have a vault full of Steam currency that they use to buy actual goods with.

What? You give valve money and then they give you that amount in your steam wallet.

If you purchase a game with money in your steam wallet the developer and publisher will receive a profit from that sale. Are you saying that the profit they receive is in steam funds?

 

[Tripolygon]

He has now made his Full disclosure video private.

Yes, I am a part owner of CSGOLotto.com (Full Story)

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Except that Blizzard doesn't then encourage other people to give them real ass money to try and buy your skin off of you, or make them 1/1000+ drops to encourage them to give LOTS of real ass money for them in trade. Or provide the means for me to make a site to then gamble them on. or run the marketplace that we then sell them on and trade them on.

Wait, so it's actually not at all the same!

Except this is totally irrelevant to the point I was making. Steam currency is no more "actual money" than OW skins.

What? You give valve money and then they give you that amount in your steam wallet.

If you purchase a game with money in your steam wallet the developer and publisher will receive a profit from that sale. Are you saying that the profit they receive is in steam funds?

You give money to Valve and they give you a good in exchange. Same as OW. In both cases, the good in question has no actual value and cannot be cashed in for actual money.

The profit they receive is in actual money payed out by Valve, not the purchaser.

 

[TatteredHat]

I hope they get sued into oblivion, but even beyond that those gambling videos themselves are disgusting.

And on that note, fuck Valve too for enabling this shit. A future fuck you to Blizzard too if cosmetics become trade-able in the future.