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[Men_in_Boxes]

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Greed is always a problem and always has been a problem, but you can't ignore what is basically 20% inflation either.

 

[John Wick]

I really detest guys like vincke who are really just gaming equivalent of populist after one hit game. Lets see how vincke fairs when its next big game goes into dev hell.

Yeah your absolutely right. Larian are shite.........
Vincke has no idea what he's talking about as he's not a developer but you are aren't you???

 

[Ozriel]

Why start developing a game when you have zero ideas how to distribute your product in the end?

So when you start a new studio, you do nothing? Or when you’ve completed your last project, you pause all work and continue to pay salaries while waiting for a new publisher ?

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Good on him for calling this out.

A reminder that you don't HAVE to take the "tough shit, this is business" attitude to be successful.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

I really detest guys like vincke who are really just gaming equivalent of populist after one hit game. Lets see how vincke fairs when its next big game goes into dev hell.

If his next game does go into dev hell, he'll presumably be glad he hasn't fired his team and has people already familiar with the company, the way they work and the other people on the team.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Well, what do you expect when most CEO’s are business people that have probably never played a game in their life? We are long past studios being run by former developers.

 

[Bernardougf]

they make 1 super successful game and feel like they're above it. relax.

Let that money for hoes, blow and the Yacht fuel start to get low and watch the magic happen.

 

[crackajack]

It's in essence hard to argue against that. Hiring some people that aren't as good as you need, or just don't fit in the rest of the work force for no obvious reason, let them go, but hive mind "overhiring" and hive mind course correction are straight up BS. Making your development more efficient should always be a goal, getting the right people and then keeping them, but arbitrarily cut 10-15% and expecting results seems weird and just mad. That's carpet bombing instead of precision strikes and all it does is inflict damage, creating panic and fear, sour the climate and in the end you are 10-15 maybe even 20+% slower than before, since the people remaining might overwork for some time, but on average burn out quickly and have to be replaced, with another fresh naive, unexperienced one.

 

[Banjo64]

The initial over-hiring is because they are greedy and can’t manage correctly. The sacking people is also an act of greed.

 

[Pakoe]

People only aware of BG3 thinking this is their only game lmao

 

[DenchDeckard]

This guy sounds like an absolute legend!

You deserve it all King!

 

[Majukun]

sadly once you open to investors, you are locked in a loop of mandatory perpetual growth or be replaced by someone that will

 

[GHG]

Yeah, I'm sure the economy has nothing to do with all this

This has been going on long before Covid and the economy subsequently going to shit due to inflation.

 

[Esppiral]

And what IS the reason for not dubbing your fucking heavy story driven Game to other languages?

Oh the hypocrisy

 

[Hudo]

On twitter some devs were talking about how the industry nowadays is full of inexperienced developers who are simply not good at their craft. its because of this ridiculous layoff cycle. it takes people years to get good at something. The first two years are training. Took me 4 years to get good, and over 8 years to get experienced enough where i could say im an expert and that too in a very specific product.

Exactly this. The industry crying about how inexperienced devs are is max hypocrisy. Can't feel sympathy here that at all. They've done that to themselves.

 

[Kadve]

Something tells me Larian should be careful for a different reason though. BG3;s success really seems to have gone to their heads and far greater companies has collapsed due to inflated egos among the staff.

Plenty of layoffs among indie developers also going on. Also not exactly a good idea badmouthing an industry your part off.

 

[WitchHunter]

So when you start a new studio, you do nothing? Or when you’ve completed your last project, you pause all work and continue to pay salaries while waiting for a new publisher ?

That happens.

 

[StueyDuck]

It's true... but also not true.

But mostly true.

 

[Hot5pur]

We got plenty of AA games like Last Epoch, Helldivers 2, Outcast 2 making bank big time and seemingly treating their people well.
If AAA games go away at this point you won't see any tears from me. Seems AAA has become synonymous with shitty microtransactions and terrible work environments.

 

[A.Romero]

That's the problem. How much is considered a good return? I've seen people that said a 25% ROI is bad. And that it needs to be at least 50%, if you are spending over $100 million. That's just pure greed.

I would say a good return is required when you are taking such a risk. If you are looking for a 10% there are less risky options.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

That's the problem. How much is considered a good return? I've seen people that said a 25% ROI is bad. And that it needs to be at least 50%, if you are spending over $100 million. That's just pure greed.

I don't think you want to spend 6 years making a game to then only profit 10% on that investment.

You probably want to make enough $ to fund your next similarly budgeted title. (At least)

 

[mckmas8808]

I would say a good return is required when you are taking such a risk. If you are looking for a 10% there are less risky options.

I don't think you want to spend 6 years making a game to then only profit 10% on that investment.

You probably want to make enough $ to fund your next similarly budgeted title. (At least)

I agree with both of you that 10% isn't the target profit margin that you'd like to hit. But if that's what the ROI was on the first game in a new IP and it reviewed well.........that doesn't mean you should give up on it. You should lean more into it. The floor can't be a 50% ROI profit or bust. NO WAY!

 

[A.Romero]

I agree with both of you that 10% isn't the target profit margin that you'd like to hit. But if that's what the ROI was on the first game in a new IP and it reviewed well.........that doesn't mean you should give up on it. You should lean more into it. The floor can't be a 50% ROI profit or bust. NO WAY!

That money comes from investors that have many options to invest their money (to make a favorable return, of course).

The average return from the SP500 Index is 10% yearly (minus inflation). That if you had the budget for a game and invest it in the SP500 you would be making 10% yearly on average with a very reduced risk compared to making video games. It could be even more if whoever is handling the portfolio is capable.

Now multiply that for 3 or 4 years it takes to make a game. That means 30% or 40% return total. Who in their right mind would take on the risk in making games for less money that they could make through other options? We are only comparing it to the SP500 but there are many other options that could yield a better return if they were willing to take on more risk.

Devs might do it out of love but money has to come from somewhere and it has to have at least as good return as other options to be viable.

Even if they are looking to make more, if they didn't have any incentives to take on the risk then the industry would go nowhere.

 

[cartman414]

This. It's pretty much how business works.

If you make a lot of money, you have to invest it at some point.
Once you do, you want your investment to grow, otherwise you've flushed money down the drain.
Business isn't charity.

The issue is with how the focus on profits is farcically short-term.

 

[UltimaKilo]

The issue is with how the focus on profits is farcically short-term.

It's all about quarterly, yes you are right.

If this is true, what they are not realizing is that the constant laying off and hiring of new staff en masse, eventually catches up to your profits as development times increase, quality decreases and is followed by a decrease in sales.

Seems like the solution is to run leaner and allow slightly longer development times and hire subcontractors when needed to fill in the void. That would be big business for whomever actually does it...

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The issue is with how the focus on profits is farcically short-term.

The biggest companies in the industry didn't get there by focusing on short term profits over long term health. The one's that did don't survive.

 

[Sushi_Combo]

Article next week:

"Ea Acquires Larian Studios"

 

[mckmas8808]

That money comes from investors that have many options to invest their money (to make a favorable return, of course).

The average return from the SP500 Index is 10% yearly (minus inflation). That if you had the budget for a game and invest it in the SP500 you would be making 10% yearly on average with a very reduced risk compared to making video games. It could be even more if whoever is handling the portfolio is capable.

Now multiply that for 3 or 4 years it takes to make a game. That means 30% or 40% return total. Who in their right mind would take on the risk in making games for less money that they could make through other options? We are only comparing it to the SP500 but there are many other options that could yield a better return if they were willing to take on more risk.

Devs might do it out of love but money has to come from somewhere and it has to have at least as good return as other options to be viable.

Even if they are looking to make more, if they didn't have any incentives to take on the risk then the industry would go nowhere.

On a foundational level, I agree with this. But what does a company have to do to garner trust and respect from these greedy shareholders? Is 25 years of positive Playstation business not good enough? Some of these investors would rather push Sony into making 75% of their games to be GAAS games, because it's all the rage.

But is that really the best way to go medium and long term? Is it? Do you want companies like Sony to move Playstation in the direction that only investors want? Do we really want that? Because Tesla would be a TOTALLY different company if all Elon Musk did was listen to shareholders first. The Cybertruck wouldn't even exist right now if it was up to the shareholders.

 

[DaGwaphics]

I would have never drawn the line between record revenue and mass layoffs.

I don't believe this is true in all cases though, the numbers for some studios have gone down at least comparative to the cost increases. There have been a lot of high profile misses too. But maybe those you could partially blame on greed again.

 

[StereoVsn]

This has been going on long before Covid and the economy subsequently going to shit due to inflation.

And considering god damn MS, a $3Trillion company with tens of billions $ profit per year has been firing people, I don’t want to hear jack shit from them about “tough economic condition”.

It’s all short sighted crap to please “shareholders” for a quarter. Note that vast majority of stock holders don’t even keep it for a year so this is just general exercise in corporate greed and shortsightedness.

 

[Windom Earle]

That about does it for me, I need to buy BG3 to support this attitude.

 

[Shut0wen]

Though i agree with what hes saying i think the best thing for every developer is literally to start off on smaller projects and make there way up, i just hate the way the industrys mentality is to make triple A games or go bust

 

[Shut0wen]

And considering god damn MS, a $3Trillion company with tens of billions $ profit per year has been firing people, I don’t want to hear jack shit from them about “tough economic condition”.

It’s all short sighted crap to please “shareholders” for a quarter. Note that vast majority of stock holders don’t even keep it for a year so this is just general exercise in corporate greed and shortsightedness.

Activision has its own money to support itself without MS dipping money into it, cant really blame MS when legendary ceo bobby made the publisher live off COD for over 10 years and mw3 and vanguard have sold pretty poorly

 

[cartman414]

The biggest companies in the industry didn't get there by focusing on short term profits over long term health. The one's that did don't survive.

True. That's how they GOT there. The real problem is that they follow up by becoming too fixated on short-term growth to appease the shareholders they now answer to.

 

[A.Romero]

On a foundational level, I agree with this. But what does a company have to do to garner trust and respect from these greedy shareholders? Is 25 years of positive Playstation business not good enough? Some of these investors would rather push Sony into making 75% of their games to be GAAS games, because it's all the rage.

But is that really the best way to go medium and long term? Is it? Do you want companies like Sony to move Playstation in the direction that only investors want? Do we really want that? Because Tesla would be a TOTALLY different company if all Elon Musk did was listen to shareholders first. The Cybertruck wouldn't even exist right now if it was up to the shareholders.

I get what you are saying. Of course investors want the earnings as fast as possible, it's the same with any industry. Longer time usually implies more risk as the markets shift and all the same: why wait 10 years for a 40% return when I can have it in half the time, take my money afterwards and jump onto the next venture.

It's not the best way to go for the medium but investors don't care about the medium and smaller self publishing studios can't survive. Even we as consumers are mostly not ready to support the medium.

I don't think companies like Tesla are a good reference. IMO that stock is a bubble waiting to burst. Just as there are companies like Tesla (or even Amazon that survived despite bleeding money for a long time), there are many other companies that bet on the long run but couldn't make it.

BTW I didn't think Sony had 25 years of positive business. I thought they were bleeding money around 2008 (at least on the gaming side) until they turned it around and I think just know their stock took a hit. In any case, they are an exception because it's a huge corporation with many legs. The gaming business is not easy, just as it shows with the Microsoft case.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

they make 1 super successful game and feel like they're above it. relax.

This 100%. This dude's attitude will make their eventual fall oh so hilarious.

 

[64bitmodels]

This 100%. This dude's attitude will make their eventual fall oh so hilarious.

they make 1 super successful game and feel like they're above it. relax.

Has CDPR or EA ever made statements like this?
A dev with this amount of self awareness probably knows the best route for their company as a whole. Just look at valve and gaben

 

[DrFigs]

Has CDPR or EA ever made statements like this?
A dev with this amount of self awareness probably knows the best route for their company as a whole. Just look at valve and gaben

The closest one I recall w/ CDPR was something like "we leave the greed to other companies". which granted, yeah they're really generous w/ expansions w/ witcher 3. But they rushed the launch of cyberpunk to get the game out during the lucrative holiday season.

 

[Bkdk]

Don't really agree, such is the lifespan for nearly all gaming studios, there is no guarantee that people would like the content that would be released, thus layoffs or studio shutdown happen rather frequently, it's something that every game developer that chooses to enter this field should have known. It's the downside of choosing working on this field, you have to be prepared for it right at the beginning. If you aren't prepared for the reality, then that dev is just delusional. No publisher or developer can keep hiring workers if there are no demand for your content, I'm sure larian's ceo won't be able to guarantee that their content would be loved by such wide audience in the future.

 

[Randall365]

Larian will sell out or go bust at some point.

We’re all in the gutter.