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Late Night Wars - Conan's last Tonight Show was TONIGHT a long time ago

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numble said:
The clause was that he couldn't do any interviews or host any shows, one might argue that this ad doesn't qualify. Even if it does, Leno probably has a clause in his contract against appearing on an ad for Letterman, but he got an approval from NBC, and NBC would probably be willing to grant an exemption.
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Leno apparently never even told NBC he was doing the commercial--they found out during the Super Bowl as it aired. The story he told on his show was actually kind of funny. NBC executives actually thought Letterman brought in Barack Obama to do a "secret show."
 
Just spotted this on the wiki entry for Conan:
On February 8, 2010, it was reported that O'Brien was attempting to sell his Central Park West penthouse in New York, with an asking price of $35 million.
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While there's no evidence of what network he'll go to, it definitely sounds like he's staying in L.A.
 
omg rite said:
So Letterman invited Jay to New York and everything Leno said was a lie. They didn't shake hands and have a polite conversation even though the one who has been holding the grudge sent out the invite.

You're incredible. :lol

You really need to hate Leno no matter what. You can't even admit this was a pretty cool thing that happened -- seeing two old friends who haven't talked in 18 years basically patch things up.

I'll never understand this insane amount of hatred you have for the man. Shouldn't you be upset with Dave for bashing Leno for a month then inviting him to New York for a tea party?
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YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!
 
Kunan said:
I just wish that if they do bring him back, that Joel would come back and they could ditch the very annoying Andy :/
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What the hell is wrong with you? I know you like Conan because of the Joel reference, but you hate Andy? His one-liners are rarely bad.
 
Kunan said:
I just wish that if they do bring him back, that Joel would come back and they could ditch the very annoying Andy :/
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wut.

DeathbyVolcano said:
Oh yeah, you aren't being sarcastic at all
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I do enjoy how you pop in again to say that to him but refuse to reply to what I last said to you. Just more quick one line replies without any substance.

I'm asking, please. Reply to that post. Answer my questions, specifically (what fantasy? how is my viewpoint warped?). We could actually have a civil debate but by purposely ignoring me it looks like you don't have an answer.
 
Kunan said:
I just wish that if they do bring him back, that Joel would come back and they could ditch the very annoying Andy :/
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Dude, the last thing the new Conan show will be without is Andy, cancellation curse be damned.:lol :lol
 
omg rite, you envision that all of these guys, Letterman and Leno mostly, will easily chum around after hatefucking each other for nearly 20 years and forget everything and get along again. It's never fucking happening, and Letterman did it purely for ratings and comedy. He still hates Leno. These guys are NOT so easily swayed by that. It isn't rainbows and kitten shit all the time.

And you've continually defended the man like he was your fucking father. It's cool if you liked his show, no one will hold that against you, but to say that he isn't partially to blame for all of this...well I mean, come the fuck on, read the thread. Listen to other comedians experiences with him. He's a insular man who works for no one else but himself, thinking of others only when he himself is in the clear. He sticks to a bleeding company for no other reason to further promote his name, even after they continually fuck him over. I'd have much more respect for the man if he would've walked and stuck it to NBC, but the truth of the matter is, he has this grandiose vision that he and only he can have the Tonight Show, and if he doesn't, his name means nothing. He WANTED this to happen. He's fucking Wormtongue, NBC is Saruman.

And think of some better insults then my terrible username. You're only using that because you can't think of anything better. But, since your nomg wrong, I have plenty of ammunition, because you've continually proven to be annoying to the point of where you have to fight like it's Pickett's Fucking Charge. Someone insults your opinion, boohoo. It's the internet.
 
Shaneus said:
Just spotted this on the wiki entry for Conan:

On February 8, 2010, it was reported that O'Brien was attempting to sell his Central Park West penthouse in New York, with an asking price of $35 million.
Click to expand...

While there's no evidence of what network he'll go to, it definitely sounds like he's staying in L.A.
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Wow, add that to his 45 million pay out & he is sitting on 80 million in just over a month's span.
Maybe he is saving up the money in case he doesn't return back to work?
 
omg rite said:
Okay well then, I guess you can believe Leno blatantly lied about what happen. I'll choose to believe him I guess.
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It's not necessarily that he "blatantly lied", but that he probably exaggerated and used the opportunity to make himself look better and to pretend that other, important people are forgiving him. You have to imagine that Leno is desperately concerned with his reputation and about the Tonight Show restarting in a few weeks, and he of all people is absolutely not above twisting realities to favour himself. I mean, that's what he's been doing for weeks now, no? That's what he's done during his entire career, no? So why should anyone take him at his word that they reconciled so amicably? Even if Leno perceived it that way, how likely is it that what he said is really what was going on? etc.

You don't have to agree. But for you to reply so aggressively and protect Leno's sacred word (worth what these days?) is kind of ridiculous.
 
This is long, as it's basically what, two months worth of pent up arguments? I'll try to be as civil as possible.

Well, in a minute. First, let me get this out of the way:

DeathbyVolcano said:
And think of some better insults then my terrible username. You're only using that because you can't think of anything better. But, since your nomg wrong, I have plenty of ammunition, because you've continually proven to be annoying to the point of where you have to fight like it's Picket's Fucking Charge. Someone insults your opinion, boohoo. It's the internet.
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Yes, you insulted my opinion. I didn't pick the fight with you. I then have the right to go at you back. You're the one who was being a condescending dick here and in another thread, giving me shit randomly. I love the "it's the internet" excuse people use.

It's the internet, so you know, it's okay to be a complete dickhead for no reason and then when the person comes back at me, they're picking a fight.

Please, compare 2010 omg rite to 2008 omg rite. I've very much tried to stop picking fights. It's a character flaw of mine and I know that. Sometimes it still comes out but I don't believe it to be too blatant. Back then no one gave a shit if I were banned. This time, when I was (rightfully) banned for a month, I saw people posting that they didn't think I should have been and they they enjoyed what I had to say. Sure, that's not going to be everyone. It's probably a very small minority. But it was zero 2 years ago, so hey, I'm getting somewhere.

Honestly? The old me would have come in here day one after being banned and went after you, probably calling you a "fucking moron".

Okay, now here we go:

omg rite, you envision that all of these guys, Letterman and Leno mostly, will easily chum around after hatefucking each other for nearly 20 years and forget everything and get along again. It's never fucking happening, and Letterman did it purely for ratings and comedy. He still hates Leno. These guys are NOT so easily swayed by that. It isn't rainbows and kitten shit all the time.
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The part I bolded? That's reality sometimes. People can hold grudges for a VERY long time and then they talk and it becomes "wow, that was fucking stupid". I do believe he did it for ratings and comedic effect but I also believe when they saw each other and talked that yeah, things felt better after all those years.

You say he hates Leno still, as if that's some sort of fact. That's your OPINION. I choose to believe what Leno said. You don't. I'm not calling you an idiot for believing what you believe. So don't act like my opinion is "fantasy" as if you're renting a two-bedroom in David Letterman's asshole.

And you've continually defended the man like he was your fucking father. It's cool if you liked his show, no one will hold that against you,
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I guess you missed the part on like, the last page, where I said I used to defend his show but then grew bored of it. Because it sucked.

Listen to other comedians experiences with him. He's a insular man who works for no one else but himself, thinking of others only when he himself is in the clear.
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Like who, exactly? Rosie O'Donnell? :lol I can't honestly take anyone seriously who thinks ANYTHING stupid Rosie said on her radio show was right. I assume you might mean someone else though? Patton Oswalt, a known friend of Conan's? Did he ever cancel his appearance on Leno and if he didn't, did he go after Leno? I don't remember, to be honest. I would hope one of those happened, considering he said that he hated him.

And I've also listened to other comedians experiences with him. I've heard Bill Burr's take on it, which was that he didn't think Leno was the bad guy. Jim Norton saying that he wasn't the bad guy. (He's been on Leno's show regularly at 10 pm, so I'll make note of that. But if Oswalt counts, so does Norton.)

What about one of the most respected comedians around today, Lewis C.K.?

"And Jay, Jay is a driven American guy. He's a working class [guy]. He's from Andover, Massachusetts which is close to where I grew up. He's a Boston comic which is what I am. And he's like, 'It's my show! I'm fucking holding onto that show!' He's not kidding around. So I don't blame him either, he's just holding on. And he won. It's pretty impressive what he pulled off. "

And since I'm on that subject of Rosie, we both can agree that she's a delusional fucking idiot, right? The fact that she called Leno selfish for not wanting to give her his show once a week then tried to bring his personal life into it as if he didn't have "anything else to do"? It's HIS show. He's not selfish for not wanting to give his talk show to someone else every Friday.

Would you? No, you wouldn't. Not to mention, Leno was right in not doing that. Rosie then proved herself to be a ticking time bomb ruining anything that she touched. Her and Stern talking about Leno's "fake image" was hilarious when Rosie's image is one of the most notoriously fake celebrity images ever.

He sticks to a bleeding company for no other reason to further promote his name, even after they continually fuck him over. I'd have much more respect for the man if he would've walked and stuck it to NBC, but the truth of the matter is, he has this grandiose vision that he and only he can have the Tonight Show, and if he doesn't, his name means nothing.
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This is what I find to be almost delusional. He should have... walked? Leno and Conan both towed the company line, where Leno acted as if it were his idea to leave and Conan acted as if the torch was just being graciously handed down to him. He left The Tonight Show and could have gone to another network. Do you realize that if he went to another network he would have been directly competing against Conan and crushing him on a nightly basis? He was forced out of The Tonight Show and you expect him to what? Quit late night television to be a nice guy to Conan? Would you just walk away? Would you just go host some car show that you didn't want to host?

Go look back at the thread for Conan's Tonight Show (you know, the one I made). You'll see some people complaining that Conan's show felt different with the time slot change and they weren't feeling it very much. I was one of the people defending it and saying the show was still great. Conan was not given enough time by NBC. They offered him a timeslot change. He could have continued hosting The Tonight Show but turned it down. So Leno got the Tonight Show back.

I'd be perfectly fine with you saying that Leno take maybe 10% of the blame simply because he stayed on NBC instead of competing directly against Conan on another network. But to say it's Leno's fault that this happened... sorry, I think that is wrong and has no basis. This is NBC's fault.

And again: I am COMPLETELY on Conan's side. He got screwed. But that doesn't mean I have to think Leno is scum. I believe Conan should have been given more time for a lot of reasons. I believe he should still be hosting the show. But you know what? I also believe Leno got screwed back when they forced him out. I believe everyone got fucked here. But I don't want Leno hosting The Tonight Show. I want Conan hosting it. That doesn't mean I have to blame Leno for what happened.
 
omg rite said:
<snip>
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k3rk8k.jpg
 
TheGreatDave said:
omg rite has kinda doomed himself with that username, even when he says things that may, through other Internet handles, seem logical.
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:lol

Even if I asked to have it changed, it would still say "aka omg rite" under it anyway.

Honestly, it's usually funny and lighthearted. I mean, I don't care if people disagree with that giant wall of text I posted. I just get annoyed when people act like I'm insane to disagree with their Leno = evil outlook.

To each their own, etc. etc. etc.

Socreges said:
k3rk8k.jpg
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I know, I ranted a bit much. But look at it this way!

Who Posted?
DeathbyVolcano 515
SpeedingUptoStop 211
numble 197
Tobor 192
Blader5489 181
....
omg rite 27
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I was just catching up to him in one giant post. :lol
 
Jesus

Listen the the Howard Stern clip posted a few pages back. Sums up my views of Leno perfectly. And I meant Leno walking to another network, not walking away from television outright.

People think I care too much about all of this, good lord.
 
No one really knows for sure, but Triumph is first and foremost a Robert Smigel creation...pretty sure he's been allowed to go on any channel/do whatever the fuck he (it?) wants.
 
Okay, someone says they got a copy of Conan's contract.

The 2002 timeslot language was part of an amendment to O’Brien’s first contract with NBC, which dated back to his 1993 hiring as host of "Late Night." The provision stipulated that if Jay Leno ever left, O’Brien would be installed as host of “Tonight,” which is described as the “series that airs at 11:35.”

The phrase itself is not only a pretty damning indication of the legal leverage the O’Brien camp held over NBC to extract his hefty $37.5 million-plus settlement, but reveals another new wrinkle in the GLNF2010: The 2002 timing means O’Brien had been waiting seven years for “Tonight,” not the five-year span that is generally reported (for those of you scoring at home).

Moreover, in his original deal to host "Late Night," that show is described as the "second network series after the end of primetime."

Case closed, right? Not exactly. As is common, O'Brien's deal was modified several times. In a 2004 amendment to the deal -- the one that officially promised O'Brien he'd get "Tonight" after a five-year waiting period -- there's no mention of the timeslot.

Insiders familiar with settlement negotiations say NBC jumped on that fact to argue that the "operative" deal was silent on the timeslot issue and even contained some NBC profit-participation boilerplate allowing NBC discretion to move shows as it chooses.

One problem with that argument: Any lawyer worth his 5% commission knows you've got to read an amended contract in the context of all other prenegotiated elements. O'Brien's 2004 deal incorporated by reference and ratified all the terms of his prior deals -- including the "Tonight Show" definition -- and says any conflicts between NBC's standard terms and the negotiated terms are governed by what's been negotiated.

NBC countered that if the 11:35 timeslot was so important to Conan, his team should have thought to put it in the 2004 amendment -- the one that actually gave O'Brien the show. But Team Coco's response was that they didn't have to. The show was already defined in the deal and was an established institution that had aired directly after the local news for decades.

The differing contractual language may also explain the choice of words NBC Universal CEO Jeff Zucker used in his Jan 18 interview with PBS' Charlie Rose, Zucker's only public comments on the case. Asked by Rose whether O'Brien's deal defined when "Tonight” would air, Zucker paused and said: "In Conan's current [emphasis ours] contract, there is no guarantee of timeslot for 'The Tonight Show.'"
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DeathbyVolcano said:
Jesus

Listen the the Howard Stern clip posted a few pages back. Sums up my views of Leno perfectly. And I meant Leno walking to another network, not walking away from television outright.

People think I care too much about all of this, good lord.
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DeathbyVolcano said:
I care, but not "massive wallfuck of text" care
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500+ posts. You really are a huge hypocrite. I'm trying to have a fair debate and you start that nonsense.

I mentioned that if he went to another network when his time at the Tonight Show was up, he would be competing directly against Conan, killing him. Either way, Conan's ratings would have been what they were (and very likely worse if he had to compete against both Letterman and Leno) and NBC would be looking for a way to fix it.

Conan didn't lose the Tonight Show because Leno was on the network. There have been rumors flying around for a couple months that NBC was looking to ditch him. They were losing lots of money and as much as it sucks, they simply were never going to give him the time he deserved to grow an audience. Why? Because NBC is stupid.

But everything in my "wall of text" still stands.
 
omg rite said:
They were losing lots of money and as much as it sucks, they simply were never going to give him the time he deserved to grow an audience.
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They were not losing money unless you counted the one time cost to build a $50 million studio.
 
Like who, exactly? Rosie O'Donnell? :lol I can't honestly take anyone seriously who thinks ANYTHING stupid Rosie said on her radio show was right. I assume you might mean someone else though? Patton Oswalt, a known friend of Conan's? Did he ever cancel his appearance on Leno and if he didn't, did he go after Leno? I don't remember, to be honest. I would hope one of those happened, considering he said that he hated him.

And I've also listened to other comedians experiences with him. I've heard Bill Burr's take on it, which was that he didn't think Leno was the bad guy. Jim Norton saying that he wasn't the bad guy. (He's been on Leno's show regularly at 10 pm, so I'll make note of that. But if Oswalt counts, so does Norton.)

What about one of the most respected comedians around today, Lewis C.K.?

"And Jay, Jay is a driven American guy. He's a working class [guy]. He's from Andover, Massachusetts which is close to where I grew up. He's a Boston comic which is what I am. And he's like, 'It's my show! I'm fucking holding onto that show!' He's not kidding around. So I don't blame him either, he's just holding on. And he won. It's pretty impressive what he pulled off. "

And since I'm on that subject of Rosie, we both can agree that she's a delusional fucking idiot, right? The fact that she called Leno selfish for not wanting to give her his show once a week then tried to bring his personal life into it as if he didn't have "anything else to do"? It's HIS show. He's not selfish for not wanting to give his talk show to someone else every Friday.
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People who criticized Leno: David Letterman, Jimmy Kimmel, Rosie O'Donnell, Patton Oswalt, Howard Stern, Wall Street Journal, Bill Zehme, Joe Queenan. This is just from wikipedia alone, which has a huge section on "Criticism of Leno."

comics against jay leno

Why some comics aren't laughing at Jay Leno

And everyone saying Leno isn't the bad guy is blaming NBC instead. But just because NBC is to blame doesn't mean Jay Leno's innocent.

This is what I find to be almost delusional. He should have... walked? Leno and Conan both towed the company line, where Leno acted as if it were his idea to leave and Conan acted as if the torch was just being graciously handed down to him. He left The Tonight Show and could have gone to another network. Do you realize that if he went to another network he would have been directly competing against Conan and crushing him on a nightly basis? He was forced out of The Tonight Show and you expect him to what? Quit late night television to be a nice guy to Conan? Would you just walk away? Would you just go host some car show that you didn't want to host?
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Hell yeah he should have walked. The torch *was* graciously handed down to Conan lest you forget this video Leno graciously passing the torch in 2004 but then he admitted he was lying then, to Conan, NBC, and millions of American viewers. Why is he staying anyway? He could have done a car show, he could have done a daytime talk show, he could have gone to another network and did a late night show, he could do more stand-up gigs at oh, anywhere in the US. What, did you think Jay Leno would have hard time finding work? Seriously, why the hell is he staying? He doesn't even consider himself a talk-show host, he considers himself a stand-up comedian. It doesn't even seem like he cares about the Tonight Show, its legacy, or does anything new with the show.

Why not go to another network? Even if he does "crush Conan" (which is just your opinion), so what? Conan wins because he gets to keep the tonight show, NBC wins because once Leno retires in a few years and Conan builds an audience, they're sitting pretty for 10+ years, the other network wins for having a profitable show with good ratings, what's the problem? Would he feel bad for beating Conan or something? He clearly does not care about Conan at all. Staying at NBC instead of going to another network is costing Conan his lifelong dream, it's costing NBC 40 million (plus more for Conan's studio which they can no longer use) and a valued long-time employee, it's costing ~200 people their jobs, it's costing millions of Conan fans their show, and all for what? So he can go back to hosting a show that he doesn't even seem to care very much about, while going back on his word and backstabbing Conan?

Go look back at the thread for Conan's Tonight Show (you know, the one I made). You'll see some people complaining that Conan's show felt different with the time slot change and they weren't feeling it very much. I was one of the people defending it and saying the show was still great. Conan was not given enough time by NBC. They offered him a timeslot change. He could have continued hosting The Tonight Show but turned it down. So Leno got the Tonight Show back.

I'd be perfectly fine with you saying that Leno take maybe 10% of the blame simply because he stayed on NBC instead of competing directly against Conan on another network. But to say it's Leno's fault that this happened... sorry, I think that is wrong and has no basis. This is NBC's fault.

And again: I am COMPLETELY on Conan's side. He got screwed. But that doesn't mean I have to think Leno is scum. I believe Conan should have been given more time for a lot of reasons. I believe he should still be hosting the show. But you know what? I also believe Leno got screwed back when they forced him out. I believe everyone got fucked here. But I don't want Leno hosting The Tonight Show. I want Conan hosting it. That doesn't mean I have to blame Leno for what happened.
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It's both Leno's fault and NBC's fault. If you look at it from NBC's perspective, they asked Leno if he would retire, Leno lied and said yes, NBC went ahead with Conan as the new Tonight Show host, and Leno went back on his word and started looking at hosting a show at a competing network, which puts NBC in a tough spot because they had already promised Conan the Tonight Show but didn't want to compete against Leno. Not that NBC didn't handle the situation terribly but Leno is definitely to blame for much of this controversy.

I mentioned that if he went to another network when his time at the Tonight Show was up, he would be competing directly against Conan, killing him. Either way, Conan's ratings would have been what they were (and very likely worse if he had to compete against both Letterman and Leno) and NBC would be looking for a way to fix it.

Conan didn't lose the Tonight Show because Leno was on the network. There have been rumors flying around for a couple months that NBC was looking to ditch him. They were losing lots of money and as much as it sucks, they simply were never going to give him the time he deserved to grow an audience. Why? Because NBC is stupid.

But everything in my "wall of text" still stands.
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First of all, I strongly question your notion that Conan would get beat by Letterman and Leno. I think there was a good chance Conan would have beaten Leno AND Letterman in the 18-49 demo (the only number that really matters), especially as time went on. If you were to look at ratings for the 18-49 demo, Conan was soundly beating Letterman until September, when the Jay Leno show premiered which gave him terrible lead-in numbers, and Letterman's scandal came up. Even then, he tied or beat Letterman in the 18-49 demo almost every week. If Jay Leno had left, with the boosted ratings from the Tonight Show controversy, plus much stronger lead-ins, who's to say he wouldn't beat Letterman and Leno in the 18-49 demo?

There were no rumors of NBC replacing Conan. There was some speculation, because Conan's ratings had gone down, but nothing from NBC that indicated they wanted to replace Conan. (one rumor about Seinfield, which NBC denied) This whole mess happened because the affiliates were mad over Jay Leno's show, and NBC had to cancel it but wanted to keep both Leno and Conan. NBC was not losing money on the Tonight Show, they know it's a marathon, they know Jay Leno floundered for the first 1.5 years when he hosted it, and they know Conan attracts a younger audience which is good for them.
 
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