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[Acid08]

And? Who says that Wire has to stay on the streets of Baltimore?

That's the whole fucking point of the show. I can honestly say that you just don't get it, which is weird considering it's really not that hard to get.

You must be trolling lmao I'm going to bed

Seems likely, this is just too crazy.

 

[BorkBork]

This is a weird set of complaints, and a lot of effort has been put into wishing the Wire was something else.

I must say, I'm baffled that you continued to watch four seasons of show if by all indications, it was blatantly obvious that it wasn't not going in the direction you wanted it to.

Guess the show is not for you. Since you're not lacking in the types of shows that you do like, maybe it's time to move on?

 

[tnsply100]

He didn't change his mind and your interview link says nothing of the sort.

Yes it does.

note the implication that the political and reform season was already around conceived.

I see no implication that the reform season was already conceived. They initially kept to the idea, but felt there was "more to say about the world". This "addition" dovetailed into "the political season" of the show. Nothing here implies that the political season was conceived before the decision of not having a different target every season.

Per your link.

the only thing that changed was that he decided to not abandon the barksdale crew altogether.. From day 1 the intent was to describe the American City (and specifically the failures, etc) and they decided their starting point would be a Wiretap case on a drug gang. After they set up that world, they decided to figure out which specific aspects of the City they wanted to address and then fleshed those out.

You read the interview about as well as you watched the show.

Nonsense. Read the whole quote again - you're jumping to conclusions about the preconception of a season focused on politics. They realized they had more to say about the world they had created, and this "more" formed the contents of a season focused on politics and reform. This "more" also ruined the plans of the 'one target per season' POST Barksdales - because obviously we didn't get '1 target per season' in S4 and S5. So, they didn't "keep" to anything.

Nothing here states anything about their intent from day 1 - aside from the fact that their plan was to have the detectives go after different criminals. They obviously didn't keep to this plan because the Barksdale crew stuck around for more than 1 season - and so did the Marlo crew.

 

[Chemo]

Man, I do not care what anyone says, season 4 of this show is fucking terrible. Season 5 is pretty much almost as bad.

The way the third season ended it more or less felt like Idris Elba got a better paying job and had to leave, so they killed Stringer Bell in the lamest way they possibly could to set up two seasons of antagonists with no character development whatsoever, and a bunch of school storylines that most people didn't give a fuck about.

The Wire was amazing, but the moment Stringer Bell died the show was over. Seasons 4 and 5 were completely extraneous (and terrible, at that). Like bad fanfics or some shit.

For people who enjoy this, do yourself a favor and watch the entirety of The Shield, which I hold in the same esteem that I hold the first three seasons of The Wire. You will thank me later.

 

[tnsply100]

That's the whole fucking point of the show. I can honestly say that you just don't get it, which is weird considering it's really not that hard to get.

What's so hard to get? Do cities other than Baltimore not have crime happening in them? Do they not have detectives? They do... ergo, if a show intended to show cops going after criminals, they could reasonably show cops going after criminals in a non-Baltimore city.

"Baltimore" isn't the point of the show. You asked me what could the seasons of a show that focused on cops vs robbers portray without seeming repetitive - I gave you several examples. And your counter to this is "that's not in Baltimore!!" ?

 

[tnsply100]

Man, I do not care what anyone says, season 4 of this show is fucking terrible. Season 5 is pretty much almost as bad.

The way the third season ended it more or less felt like Idris Elba got a better paying job and had to leave, so they killed Stringer Bell in the lamest way they possibly could to set up two seasons of antagonists with no character development whatsoever, and a bunch of school storylines that most people didn't give a fuck about.

The Wire was amazing, but the moment Stringer Bell died the show was over. Seasons 4 and 5 were completely extraneous (and terrible, at that). Like bad fanfics or some shit.

For people who enjoy this, do yourself a favor and watch the entirety of The Shield, which I hold in the same esteem that I hold the first three seasons of The Wire. You will thank me later.

I don't fully agree but -

Marlo and his crew were given far less character development because we had so many different plotlines (which is the crux of complaints above ).

 

[heliosRAzi]

You clearly were watching the Wire for the wrong reasons

 

[Natural]

Just started watching this, onto season two at the moment (which my friend has told me is the shittest of the five seasons).. Season 1 was good, Season 2 so far is a bit meh.

 

[Black Mamba]

I see no implication that the reform season was already conceived. They initially kept to the idea, but felt there was "more to say about the world". This "addition" dovetailed into "the political season" of the show. Nothing here implies that the political season was conceived before the decision of not having a different target every season.

They didn't change the idea of having a different target. Did you miss the bold?

Originally, when the show was first conceived, we thought [the cops] would pick a different target each season and run a different case. And we kept to that idea, but having created the whole Barksdale universe, we felt that there was more to say about that world, and it dovetailed nicely into the political and reform season.

Every season has a different target. the world dovetailed means to fit together into the whole. Whole implying that there's a lot more story out there.

And again: "but our intention was to try to depict an American city and all of its internal problems and to address why it is that we can't solve those problems, and to reflect on that. "

Nonsense. Read the whole quote again - you're jumping to conclusions about the preconception of a season focused on politics. They realized they had more to say about the world they had created, and this "more" formed the contents of a season focused on politics and reform.

No, the political and reform season was already conceived by the time they decided to expand barsdale universe.

IGN TV: You've said that you envisioned The Wire as a five season story. Was that the plan from the start?

Simon: From very close to the start I would say.After we finished the first season and establishing the world, Ed Burns and I sat around and thought about things we wanted to pull through the keyhole in parts of the city that we wanted to depict. And we came up with the schools; with the idea of the working class for season 2, and the "Death of Work" as a theme. We came up with the idea of adding City Hall and the notion of reform. And then I wanted to do something with the media in this world that we've established and depicted. We didn't seal it off at five [seasons] right there; those were the ideas that we had. Everything else that we came up with -- we talked about other things -- either felt not substantial enough to motivate an entire season or it was in some way redundant with one of those five other themes. And then, as other writers came on, we would actually throw it out to them and say, "Listen, we only have five themes. If you've got anything else in your head that you think can be done with this universe, speak now." We kicked a few things around, but nobody felt as if we had anything else that wouldn't feel redundant and like it was dragging the show too far. So yeah, I think Ed and I had those five things in our head somewhere before we started season 2.

They had the entire thematic plan from early on. All that changed was that Barksdale universe was expanded in the subsequent seasons.

Nothing here states anything about their intent from day 1 - aside from the fact that their plan was to have the detectives go after different criminals. They obviously didn't keep to this plan because the Barksdale crew stuck around for more than 1 season - and so did the Marlo crew.

season 1 was barksdale
season 2 was greeks/whoever behind the women's deaths
season 3 was stringer bell
season 4 was chris/snoop or the vacant house killers and
season 5 was marlo.

I guess you could argue barksdale and bell are the same, but bell also had prop joe involved too and was somewhat in control and did things differently.


Clay Davis was a criminal target and a mix of season 4 & 5 IIRC.


Again: "So we planned to go back to it, but we felt that to go back to it right away in the second season, the show would have seemed smaller than our intention. We didn't actually say it to HBO right away, because they would have thought we were crazy and thrown us out of the office, but our intention was to try to depict an American city and all of its internal problems and to address why it is that we can't solve those problems, and to reflect on that."

That was Simon's and Burns intention for the show. He repeated this over and over in numerous interviews. Simon being a Baltimore Sun reporter to begin with was all about the media portrayal at some point.

 

[Black Mamba]

I don't fully agree but -

Marlo and his crew were given far less character development because we had so many different plotlines (which is the crux of complaints above ).

Marlo was given less character development because he was supposed to be the antithesis of Stringer for a very specific reason. Furthermore, he represented the evolution (or devolution) of the streets. Bunk's speech to Omar on the bench is the giant clue to Marlo's role in the show.

They kept Marlo's development low key until the very end when he had his "MY NAME IS MY NAME" line, which i think took a lot of guts to take that long to get emotion out of Marlo, but I think played it perfectly in retrospect.

It had nothing to do with the various plotlines. It was done with a purpose in mind.

 

[Mumei]

"Baltimore" isn't the point of the show. You asked me what could the seasons of a show that focused on cops vs robbers portray without seeming repetitive - I gave you several examples. And your counter to this is "that's not in Baltimore!!" ?

NICK HORNBY: Can I start by asking you something about the writing? How did you kick it off? All the seasons have had very unconventional shapes and paces to them, I think. Did you have something different in mind before you started, or did that happen during the creation of the series?

DAVID SIMON:

[...]

Another reason the show may feel different than a lot of television: our model is not quite so Shakespearean as other high-end HBO fare. The Sopranos and Deadwood—two shows that I do admire—offer a good deal of Macbeth or Richard III or Hamlet in their focus on the angst and machinations of the central characters (Tony Soprano, Al Swearengen). Much of our modern theater seems rooted in the Shakespearean discovery of the modern mind. We’re stealing instead from an earlier, less-traveled construct—the Greeks—lifting our thematic stance wholesale from Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides to create doomed and fated protagonists who confront a rigged game and their own mortality. The modern mind—particularly those of us in the West—finds such fatalism ancient and discomfiting, I think. We are a pretty self-actualized, self-worshipping crowd of postmoderns and the idea that for all of our wherewithal and discretionary income and leisure, we’re still fated by indifferent gods, feels to us antiquated and superstitious. We don’t accept our gods on such terms anymore; by and large, with the exception of the fundamentalists among us, we don’t even grant Yahweh himself that kind of unbridled, interventionist authority.

But instead of the old gods, The Wire is a Greek tragedy in which the postmodern institutions are the Olympian forces. It’s the police department, or the drug economy, or the political structures, or the school administration, or the macroeconomic forces that are throwing the lightning bolts and hitting people in the ass for no decent reason. In much of television, and in a good deal of our stage drama, individuals are often portrayed as rising above institutions to achieve catharsis. In this drama, the institutions always prove larger, and those characters with hubris enough to challenge the postmodern construct of American empire are invariably mocked, marginalized, or crushed. Greek tragedy for the new millennium, so to speak. Because so much of television is about providing catharsis and redemption and the triumph of character, a drama in which postmodern institutions trump individuality and morality and justice seems different in some ways, I think.

[...]

NH: How did you pitch it?

DS: I pitched The Wire to HBO as the anti–cop show, a rebellion of sorts against all the horseshit police procedurals afflicting American television. I am unalterably opposed to drug prohibition; what began as a war against illicit drugs generations ago has now mutated into a war on the American underclass, and what drugs have not destroyed in our inner cities, the war against them has. I suggested to HBO—which up to that point had produced groundbreaking drama by going where the broadcast networks couldn’t (The Sopranos, Sex and the City, et al…)—that they could further enhance their standing by embracing the ultimate network standard (cop show) and inverting the form. Instead of the usual good guys chasing bad guys framework, questions would be raised about the very labels of good and bad, and, indeed, whether such distinctly moral notions were really the point.

The show would instead be about untethered capitalism run amok, about how power and money actually route themselves in a postmodern American city, and, ultimately, about why we as an urban people are no longer able to solve our problems or heal our wounds. Early in the conception of the drama, Ed Burns and I—as well as the late Bob Colesberry, a consummate filmmaker who served as the directorial producer and created the visual template for The Wire—conceived of a show that would, with each season, slice off another piece of the American city, so that by the end of the run, a simulated Baltimore would stand in for urban America, and the fundamental problems of urbanity would be fully addressed.

First season: the dysfunction of the drug war and the general continuing theme of self-sustaining postmodern institutions devouring the individuals they are supposed to serve or who serve them. Second season: the death of work and the destruction of the American working class in the postindustrial era, for which we added the port of Baltimore. Third season: the political process and the possibility of reform, for which we added the City Hall component. Fourth season: equal opportunity, for which we added the public-education system. The fifth and final season will be about the media and our capacity to recognize and address our own realities, for which we will add the city’s daily newspaper and television components.

Did we mention these grandiose plans to HBO at the beginning? No, they would have laughed us out of the pitch meeting. Instead, we spoke only to the inversion of the cop show and a close examination of the drug war’s dysfunction. But before shifting gears to the port in season two, I sat down with the HBO execs and laid out the argument to begin constructing an American city and examining the above themes through that construction. So here we are.

If it isn't clear from the quote, The Wire was not about "cops vs robbers." It was about the city and about institutions, and in particular how those institutions were affected by the war on drugs. I am not sure what you read in the interview you posted, or what you saw in the first season, that gave you the impression that it was supposed to be Law & Order-esque, but that was never the point.

The interview is also the source of one of my favorite David Simon quotes:

NH: Every time I think, Man, I’d love to write for The Wire, I quickly realize that I wouldn’t know my True dats from my narcos. Did you know all that before you started? Do you get input from those who might be more familiar with the idiom?

DS: My standard for verisimilitude is simple and I came to it when I started to write prose narrative: fuck the average reader. I was always told to write for the average reader in my newspaper life. The average reader, as they meant it, was some suburban white subscriber with two-point-whatever kids and three-point-whatever cars and a dog and a cat and lawn furniture. He knows nothing and he needs everything explained to him right away, so that exposition becomes this incredible, story-killing burden. Fuck him. Fuck him to hell.

http://www.believermag.com/issues/200708/?read=interview_simon

 

[Papa]

Maybe you should go watch Law & Order then, tnsply100.

 

[MMaRsu]

What's going on with the out of order thing?

Nothing.. I was watching the episode with Stringer at the end of s3 and just started into S4 from there haha. And season 4 is one of my favorites.. wasn't planning on rewatching the entire show but damn it's got me hooked again!

 

[Battersea Power Station]

tnsply2000, you must have a mental problem. How do you keep watching a show for 4 seasons thinking that red will suddenly turn into blue?

I tried watching Mad Men, and after a season it did not catch my interest at all. I'm not going to sit around watching it, wishing it was about spousal abuse the whole time.

Also, I'm not enough of an ass to call it crap and nonsense and other bullshit that makes me sound like I'm the center of the world. Get over yourself.

 

[MMaRsu]

Why the hell is Bubbles still on the show?? He was the snitch that kicked of S1's case. I don't give a flying fuck about his drug problem and his family.

Why the hell are we following Cutty? He is "out of the game" and therefore no longer relevant to the show.

What the hell is up with these kids? They aren't criminals or snitches. Get back to the case..

Mayoral Race? WTF??

That's all I read aside from you above posts and honestly that's all I need to know to ignore your opinion from now on.

It's not a cop vs robbers show and it was never meant to be. Don't get ridiculous.

 

[tnsply100]

They didn't change the idea of having a different target. Did you miss the bold?

No I didn't miss the bold. They kept to the idea initially, until they realized "there was more to be said". There have been only 3 targets for 5 seasons - so its apparent that they didn't keep to the idea.

the world dovetailed means to fit together into the whole. Whole implying that there's a lot more story out there.

X (the planned change) "dovetailing" into Y (the political season) makes no implications about when Y was conceived in relation to X.

They had the entire thematic plan from early on. All that changed was that Barksdale universe was expanded in the subsequent seasons.

Which does nothing to explain why Marlo was the target for seasons 3-5.

season 1 was barksdale
season 2 was greeks/whoever behind the women's deaths
season 3 was stringer bell
season 4 was chris/snoop or the vacant house killers and
season 5 was marlo.

You're trying to stretch the facts to cover your hypothesis here.
S1 had a target of Avon/Stringer, S2 had a target of the Greek/Vondas/Sbotka, S3 had a joint target of Marlo/Avon/Stringer and S4 and S5 had Marlo as a target.
There have only been 3 "different targets" for the duration of the 5 season show.

IGN TV: You've said that you envisioned The Wire as a five season story. Was that the plan from the start?

Simon: From very close to the start I would say.After we finished the first season and establishing the world, Ed Burns and I sat around and thought about things we wanted to pull through the keyhole in parts of the city that we wanted to depict. And we came up with the schools; with the idea of the working class for season 2, and the "Death of Work" as a theme. We came up with the idea of adding City Hall and the notion of reform. And then I wanted to do something with the media in this world that we've established and depicted. We didn't seal it off at five [seasons] right there; those were the ideas that we had. Everything else that we came up with -- we talked about other things -- either felt not substantial enough to motivate an entire season or it was in some way redundant with one of those five other themes. And then, as other writers came on, we would actually throw it out to them and say, "Listen, we only have five themes. If you've got anything else in your head that you think can be done with this universe, speak now." We kicked a few things around, but nobody felt as if we had anything else that wouldn't feel redundant and like it was dragging the show too far. So yeah, I think Ed and I had those five things in our head somewhere before we started season 2.

Note the all important phrase "from very close to the start'.

No one is arguing that sometime after very close to its conception the writers decided to make the show about the ills of the American city. What is being argued that it was originally conceived as a show where major crimes would go after a different target each season - this clearly did not happen.

 

[MMaRsu]

The point we are trying to make is that the show ISNT about the targets.

 

[Summary Man]

In summary, I'd say the show was a disappointment in terms of how good it could have been.

In summary a serialized, detailed version of Law and Order was precisely what I wanted (and still do want).

Just a heads up. Some mods don't appreciate this.

 

[Acid08]

Man, I do not care what anyone says, season 4 of this show is fucking terrible. Season 5 is pretty much almost as bad.

The way the third season ended it more or less felt like Idris Elba got a better paying job and had to leave, so they killed Stringer Bell in the lamest way they possibly could to set up two seasons of antagonists with no character development whatsoever, and a bunch of school storylines that most people didn't give a fuck about.

The Wire was amazing, but the moment Stringer Bell died the show was over. Seasons 4 and 5 were completely extraneous (and terrible, at that). Like bad fanfics or some shit.

For people who enjoy this, do yourself a favor and watch the entirety of The Shield, which I hold in the same esteem that I hold the first three seasons of The Wire. You will thank me later.

What in the fuck?

 

[tnsply100]

If it isn't clear from the quote, The Wire was not about "cops vs robbers." It was about the city and about institutions, and in particular how those institutions were affected by the war on drugs. I am not sure what you read in the interview you posted, or what you saw in the first season, that gave you the impression that it was supposed to be Law & Order-esque, but that was never the point.

No doubt that looking back at the show now, it is clear that the show has been about the American city as opposed to a cops vs robbers show.

The only thing being argued in this thread is what the intent was initially - I'm arguing that the initial intent was to have a cops and robbers type show where they went after a different target each season (which by the way is a reasonable assumption given Season 1 and the show's title). The other poster is arguing that the show turned out as was originally intended - that the only change was that the Barksdale universe was kept around longer.

Its a quite pedantic argument that really has no effect either way- but its fun to debate.

 

[brianjones]

wow this thread..

 

[tnsply100]

tnsply2000, you must have a mental problem. How do you keep watching a show for 4 seasons thinking that red will suddenly turn into blue?

I tried watching Mad Men, and after a season it did not catch my interest at all. I'm not going to sit around watching it, wishing it was about spousal abuse the whole time.

Also, I'm not enough of an ass to call it crap and nonsense and other bullshit that makes me sound like I'm the center of the world. Get over yourself.

I gave it the benefit of the doubt given that S1 was the greatest season ever (s2 was quite excellent as well).

And keep in mind that I wasn't the only one who thinks S4 and S5 were filled with extraneous fluff that "nobody cares about". See Chemo's post just above yours - (obviously we don't agree on everything, but the sentiment is similar). There are several other posters I've come across at other forums who feel similarly).

But go ahead and diagnose us as having "mental problems" if that makes you feel better.

Just a heads up. Some mods don't appreciate this.

Hm..

I'll be happy to discuss with any mods - Haven't received any PM's yet.

Granted the argument between me and the other poster about "original intentions" is quite pedantic.. but nothing violates the TOS as far as I can see.

The point we are trying to make is that the show ISNT about the targets.

No one is disagreeing with this now that we've seen all five seasons. The argument is strictly about what the "original intention" of the creators was - based on the interview link I posted.

The other ongoing argument is whether the show would've been "better" if it was a serialized Law and Order - but that's up to each of our individual tastes.

 

[tnsply100]

delete please.

 

[tnsply100]

delete please.

 

[PhoenixDark]

He continues to use a couple lines from one interview to prove his point, when that very same interview proves him wrong. The "one-target" initial concept in no ways suggests Simon wasn't going to examine the city as a whole; in fact once he created the Barksdale characters he decided one season couldn't tell the entire story. So the "one-target per season" idea went out the window before a single camera started shooting; that's why S2-S3 still feature the Barksdale empire.

The Wire is all about Baltimore; it is essentially the main character of the series. Simon has called The Wire a love letter to his home city. Multiple actors from the show are from there, multiple writers as well. Many characters are based on real life Baltimore criminals, cops, lawyers, and journalists. So yes, Baltimore is the fucking point of the show and to suggest otherwise is silly. This is not 24 where a terrorism case could happen in LA or New York. Even Law and Order often focuses on one city.

Given the way the show is structured, how the hell would it even move to another city? Freemon and company get fired, all move to New Jersey and start wiretapping the mob?

 

[Mumei]

No doubt that looking back at the show now, it is clear that the show has been about the American city as opposed to a cops vs robbers show.

The only thing being argued in this thread is what the intent was initially - I'm arguing that the initial intent was to have a cops and robbers type show where they went after a different target each season (which by the way is a reasonable assumption given Season 1 and the show's title). The other poster is arguing that the show turned out as was originally intended - that the only change was that the Barksdale universe was kept around longer.

Its a quite pedantic argument that really has no effect either way- but its fun to debate.

In the interview excerpts I posted, David Simon said that he had the intention of making the show about an American city (Baltimore) from the get-go. Can you post the quote (again, if you already have) that makes you think it wasn't the case?

 

[angelkimne]

I'm quite surprised that people thought S1 was the best of them all. The increase in characters and perspectives was what made The Wire so unique, and gave the show so much more variety, allowing it to feel fresh at the beginning of every season.

 

[MMaRsu]

What in the fuck?

Haha oh man I hadn't even read that post yet. Season 4 terrible? Laughable...

Stringer got killed off in an amazing way, and in one of the best episodes.

This guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Summary Man]

Hm..

I'll be happy to discuss with any mods - Haven't received any PM's yet.

Granted the argument between me and the other poster about "original intentions" is quite pedantic.. but nothing violates the TOS as far as I can see.

I'm just joking with you. Whenever I summarize my posts people and a certain mod get angry, but it's fine when other posters do the same thing.

 

[Messypandas]

Stringer Bell's story had run its course, its character had no mileage left and leaving him the show would only be pandering to the fans. He wasn't even the best character, Bodie's death resonated with me more.

 

[tnsply100]

In the interview excerpts I posted, David Simon said that he had the intention of making the show about an American city (Baltimore) from the get-go. Can you post the quote (again, if you already have) that makes you think it wasn't the case?

Here we go -

IGN TV: How much of the overreaching story arcs did you have in mind initially? For instance, when did you decide how the Stringer Bell/Avon Barksdale story was going to end?

Simon: We actually decided that before the end of the first season. Originally, when the show was first conceived, we thought [the cops] would pick a different target each season and run a different case. And we kept to that idea, but having created the whole Barksdale universe, we felt that there was more to say about that world, and it dovetailed nicely into the political and reform season. So we planned to go back to it, but we felt that to go back to it right away in the second season, the show would have seemed smaller than our intention. We didn't actually say it to HBO right away, because they would have thought we were crazy and thrown us out of the office, but our intention was to try to depict an American city and all of its internal problems and to address why it is that we can't solve those problems, and to reflect on that. And so we were looking at slicing up different pieces of the city every year. We felt we absolutely needed to go to another place in that city and address another theme in season 2 and leave the Barksdale story to progress at a slower pace and then revisit it in season 3. That was all decided in season 1.

The bolded portion - combined with the fact that the writers clearly did NOT stick to the "different target each season" plan makes me believe that the "we felt there was more to say about that world" refers to a shift in direction for the show's plan (not just in terms of revisiting the Barksdales but having a season focused on political reform).

How you interpret that is up to you I guess - the other poster is trying to argue that the creators stuck to their original plan of "different target each season" - which I think is blatantly false.

 

[brianjones]

I'm just joking with you. Whenever I summarize my posts people and a certain mod get angry, but it's fine when other posters do the same thing.

your gimmick was annoying, get over it

 

[PhoenixDark]

To be fair, many people didn't like S4 but I've never heard someone claim it's "horrible." I've met people who couldn't really identify with the kids in S4, or the school setting and missed the original characters. Yet even they will argue the show's quality remained high in terms of acting and writing. That's a valid criticism. Complaining because S3 and S4 aren't "cops v criminals" is laughable considering the show never was a simple "cops v criminals" affair. I can't think of any shows that are outside of stuff like CSI.

Maybe you'd like Homicide dunno. The Wire isn't a cop show.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Here we go -



The bolded portion - combined with the fact that the writers clearly did NOT stick to the "different target each season" plan makes me believe that the "we felt there was more to say about that world" refers to a shift in direction for the show's plan (not just in terms of revisiting the Barksdales but having a season focused on political reform).

How you interpret that is up to you I guess - the other poster is trying to argue that the creators stuck to their original plan of "different target each season" - which I think is blatantly false.

As pointed out multiple times, in no way does that suggest the show wasn't going to focus on various themes. In the first question he says the themes were conceived basically from the start of the show. There would have still been a season on reform even if they decided to focus on a different criminal origination each season. And you'd still complain. It would probably be even worse considering they'd have less time to set up the new characters, introduce them, etc.

 

[BeeDog]

I'm all for differing opinions, but some posts make me want to flail my arms uncontrollably in the hope of punching the fuck out of some posters.

Damn, I need to start rewatching this masterful show. I even loved season 5 <3

 

[Summary Man]

I'm diverging from the current discussion somewhat, but I just wanted to say I never really liked Brother Mouzone. I understand that he is a viewer favorite, but his character clashes with the otherwise "realistic" aesthetic of the show. Yeah, he's supposedly a member of the Nation of Islam, which explains certain aspects of his personality, but his inclusion in The Wire tiptoes the line between believability and silliness.

It's like he was written with the sole intention of surprising the audience by being a killer who doesn't look like a killer. And I guess that's supposed to play with our expectations and understanding of criminal activity? He just looks like an older Steve Urkel.

 

[CygnusXS]

I'm diverging from the current discussion somewhat, but I just wanted to say I never really liked Brother Mouzone. I understand that he is a viewer favorite, but his character clashes with the otherwise "realistic" aesthetic of the show. Yeah, he's supposedly a member of the Nation of Islam, which explains certain aspects of his personality, but his inclusion in The Wire tiptoes the line between believability and silliness.

Eh, dramatic license. I mean, the show embellishes reality in a lot of ways; Mouzone is one of those embellishments. Love the character, myself.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

The point of The Wire whizzes so far above tnsply100's head that it is unreal. I don't know how you could not get The Wire. The Wire and Law & Order are so different as to be two entirely different beasts (same with The Shield). I think his problem is that everything is seen in black and white. The Wire shows that everyone has shades of gray: nobody is ever completely good and nobody is ever completely evil, much like real life.

I do think that S5 was the weakest season and did feel somewhat unnecessary but I think it is because it is the most disconnected of the series. Nothing felt as tightly wrapped or well drawn out as the previous seasons. It's still good.

Reading this thread has inspired me to watch the whole show over again. Thanks!

 

[Mumei]

Here we go -

The bolded portion - combined with the fact that the writers clearly did NOT stick to the "different target each season" plan makes me believe that the "we felt there was more to say about that world" refers to a shift in direction for the show's plan (not just in terms of revisiting the Barksdales but having a season focused on political reform).

How you interpret that is up to you I guess - the other poster is trying to argue that the creators stuck to their original plan of "different target each season" - which I think is blatantly false.

I agree with him. In every season, there was a wire and a target. He correctly identified the targets - Season 1 was Barksdale. Season 2 was the Greek / whoever was behind the women's deaths (also Sobotka was a separate case that dovetailed into the other case), Season 3 was Stringer Bell, Season 4 was the vacant house murders, and Season was Marlo.

There were other things going on in all of those seasons, but you can't deny that those people or organizations were targeted in their respective seasons.

You also need to read not just the bolded portion of your quote, but the rest of it:

So we planned to go back to it, but we felt that to go back to it right away in the second season, the show would have seemed smaller than our intention. We didn't actually say it to HBO right away, because they would have thought we were crazy and thrown us out of the office, but our intention was to try to depict an American city and all of its internal problems and to address why it is that we can't solve those problems, and to reflect on that. And so we were looking at slicing up different pieces of the city every year. We felt we absolutely needed to go to another place in that city and address another theme in season 2 and leave the Barksdale story to progress at a slower pace and then revisit it in season 3. That was all decided in season 1.

Right there, he says that the intention was to depict an American city and its internal problems, which is completely consistent with what he said in the interview I posted. You're arguing your case based on a handful of lines in an interview that don't contradict what he actually did (have a different target each season), and using those lines to argue that what he did with the show (make it about Baltimore, and depict its problems and why they are so intractable) is contrary to the original intention of the show, when a mere paragraph later he describes his original intention as exactly what you insist the show isn't about. In short, the quote you're using disproves the point you are trying to argue.

 

[José Mourinho]

The point of The Wire whizzes so far above tnsply100's head that it is unreal. I don't know how you could not get The Wire. The Wire and Law & Order are so different as to be two entirely different beasts (same with The Shield). I think his problem is that everything is seen in black and white. The Wire shows that everyone has shades of gray: nobody is ever completely good and nobody is ever completely evil, much like real life.

I do think that S5 was the weakest season and did feel somewhat unnecessary but I think it is because it is the most disconnected of the series. Nothing felt as tightly wrapped or well drawn out as the previous seasons. It's still good.

Reading this thread has inspired me to watch the whole show over again. Thanks!

I just finished rewatching it last night. Just as good 2nd time round.

To be fair, many people didn't like S4 but I've never heard someone claim it's "horrible." I've met people who couldn't really identify with the kids in S4, or the school setting and missed the original characters. Yet even they will argue the show's quality remained high in terms of acting and writing. That's a valid criticism. Complaining because S3 and S4 aren't "cops v criminals" is laughable considering the show never was a simple "cops v criminals" affair. I can't think of any shows that are outside of stuff like CSI.

Maybe you'd like Homicide dunno. The Wire isn't a cop show.

Season 4 was my favourite.

 

[tnsply100]

If anybody is STILL not convinced what the show was supposed to be and what is ended up being, read David Simon's pitch to HBO -

http://kottke.org.s3.amazonaws.com/the-wire/The_Wire_-_Bible.pdf

It will be, in the strictest sense, a police procedural set in .....

.. It is a police story set amid the dysfunction and indifference of an urban department...

Each season... exists as a standalone journey

Each story arc ultimately gravitates toward one common feature - a prolonged wiretap...

At the end of thirteen episodes, the reward for the viewer -- who has been lured all this way by a well constructed police show --- ....

So, quite kindly spare me the hysteria over "you don't get it" or "it was never a cop show". I fucking get it - the writers changed their goddamn minds and turned their "police procedural" into a more about urban ills at some early point in time.

Where the fuck was the "prolonged wiretap" that we were supposed to "gravitate to" in S4 ? Why the hell do we have mayoral elections in the middle of a "police story" ?

They wanted to "lure me by a well constructed police show" which they certainly did.

 

[theignoramus]

I cant believe some idiot is claiming the core of the Wire is cops vs. robbers. That's like saying the core of the Sopranos is cops versus the Mafia or the core of Deadwood is "cowboys versus Indians"

 

[PhoenixDark]

If anybody is STILL not convinced what the show was supposed to be and what is ended up being, read David Simon's pitch to HBO -

http://kottke.org.s3.amazonaws.com/the-wire/The_Wire_-_Bible.pdf











So, quite kindly spare me the hysteria over "you don't get it" or "it was never a cop show". I fucking get it - the writers changed their goddamn minds and turned their "police procedure" into a more about urban ills at some early point in time.

Where the fuck was the "prolonged wiretap" that we were supposed to "gravitate to" in S4 ? Why the hell do we have mayoral elections in the middle of a "police story" ?

They wanted to "lure me by a well constructed police show" which they certainly did.

Simon has said many times he essentially had to tell HBO what they wanted to hear just to get the show greenlit; he suggests as much in the IGN link. That proves nothing. It is a police procedural, perhaps the most technical one of all time. But it's never been just that, nor has it EVER been a "cop show."

 

[theignoramus]

fictionalized leftist propoganda from Simon

ah, and here I thought the Wire was above this kind of stupidity.

 

[MMaRsu]

If anybody is STILL not convinced what the show was supposed to be and what is ended up being, read David Simon's pitch to HBO -

http://kottke.org.s3.amazonaws.com/the-wire/The_Wire_-_Bible.pdf











So, quite kindly spare me the hysteria over "you don't get it" or "it was never a cop show". I fucking get it - the writers changed their goddamn minds and turned their "police procedure" into a more about urban ills at some early point in time.

Where the fuck was the "prolonged wiretap" that we were supposed to "gravitate to" in S4 ? Why the hell do we have mayoral elections in the middle of a "police story" ?

They wanted to "lure me by a well constructed police show" which they certainly did.

le sigh

 

[Socreges]

tnsply100

 

[tnsply100]

Simon has said many times he essentially had to tell HBO what they wanted to hear just to get the show greenlit; he suggests as much in the IGN link. That proves nothing. It is a police procedural, perhaps the most technical one of all time. But it's never been just that, nor has it EVER been a "cop show."

Read carefully -

Simon: We actually decided that before the end of the first season. Originally, when the show was first conceived, we thought [the cops] would pick a different target each season and run a different case. And we kept to that idea, but having created the whole Barksdale universe, we felt that there was more to say about that world, and it dovetailed nicely into the political and reform season. So we planned to go back to it, but we felt that to go back to it right away in the second season, the show would have seemed smaller than our intention. We didn't actually say it to HBO right away, because they would have thought we were crazy and thrown us out of the office, but our intention was to try to depict an American city and all of its internal problems and to address why it is that we can't solve those problems, and to reflect on that. And so we were looking at slicing up different pieces of the city every year. We felt we absolutely needed to go to another place in that city and address another theme in season 2 and leave the Barksdale story to progress at a slower pace and then revisit it in season 3. That was all decided in season 1.

Before the End of the first season - far after the pitch was made.

Or are you referring to some other part?

Do you have any document showing that Simon had five seasons about American urban ills in his mind when he made the original pitch? If so, I'd like to see it.

 

[CygnusXS]

ah, and here I thought the Wire was above this kind of stupidity.

It makes me sick, how far we done fell.

 

[Acid08]

Read carefully -



Before the End of the first season - far after the pitch was made.

Or are you referring to some other part?

You think he's referring to the end of the first season airing or them planning it out? Because if it was in the planning phases then the story changes would have been very much older.

 

[tnsply100]

You think he's referring to the end of the first season airing or them planning it out? Because if it was in the planning phases then the story changes would have been very much older.

Airing obviously - he is talking about approaching HBO with these changes for S2 - something only possible quite late. - Certainly far, far later than the creation of the initial pitch - which was even before S1 was approved.