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[MMaRsu]

Ughhhhh

This guy is making mah brains hurt. Better not to argue with him anymore ><

 

[tnsply100]

Not to mention that Simon has explicitly stated what they were trying to tackle with each season. Even better is the commentary he's done on the DVD's, where he flat out says things like (paraphrasing) "so this season we're tackling this, and this scene is important towards that because ... etc."

And ? Parroting David Simon's intentions of themes to be covered in various seasons gets you nowhere.

Let me remind you of where this conversation was - you were going to try and convince me Season 1 of the show is something "beyond a police procedural".

I have yet to see a single concrete plot element or abstract theme from Season 1 that somehow takes the show beyond police procedural classification. Sympathetic gangsters, horrible bosses, egotistical detectives..... all of this is firmly within police procedural territory.

 

[CygnusXS]

No one has said themes don't exist. I am saying they can be quite subjectively attached. You can certain parrot David Simon's "season 2 addresses the middle class, season 3 addresses reform" routine - but quite frankly, there isn't a single theme that you will be able to come up with that I won't be able to find in Law and order or just about any other procedural.

Look deep enough, and you'll find criticism of the media in the Flintstones. It all depends on how far you want to stretch things - how you choose to interpret certain literal plot elements as metaphors...etc.

I'll tell you what, you're stretching you're argument pretty fucking far. I'm out. Arguing against intellectual dishonesty is pointless.

 

[tnsply100]

I'll tell you what, you're stretching you're argument pretty fucking far. I'm out. Arguing against intellectual dishonesty is pointless.

This is precisely why I asked you to focus on concrete plot elements - not subjective themes that can be stretched out as far as anyone can take it.

 

[Acid08]

This is precisely why I asked you to focus on concrete plot elements - not subjective themes that can be stretched out as far as anyone can take it.

Everything fits into the plot though, that's what you're not getting. The themes DIRECTLY apply to what happens in the story.

 

[computers putin']

what an epic stretch of trolling

 

[Acid08]

what an epic stretch of trolling

Nah, there's trolling then there's just being fucking dumb and unreasonable.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I'm done. The goal post moving has gone from possible trolling to a simple case of intellectual dishonesty, or simply not understanding art beyond a surface level.

You can find episodes with various themes sure, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about seasons defined by their themes, not episodes. We're not talking about a show with each episode being different, or having a different case or theme. In Law & Order's example, nearly every early episode was based on a real life case. It's not a show of "themes." It's a serial where complicated cases are solved in less than an hour. It baffles my mind that you cannot comprehend the difference there, or the basic difference between a serial show where each episode has nothing to do with the next, and a show where each episode is a link in a chain. I'm sure there are episodes of Law & Order that talk about schools, but they are in no way comparable to an extended focus on schools for an entire season.

The theme of S1 has already been mentioned, and each time you ignore it. I'm going to go back to discussing the show, not your ridiculous misinterpretation of it.

 

[tnsply100]

I'm done. The goal post moving has gone from possible trolling to a simple case of intellectual dishonesty, or simply not understanding art beyond a surface level.

You can find episodes with various themes sure, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about seasons defined by their themes, not episodes. We're not talking about a show with each episode being different, or having a different case or theme. In Law & Order's example, nearly every early episode was based on a real life case. It's not a show of "themes." It's a serial where complicated cases are solved in less than an hour. It baffles my mind that you cannot comprehend the difference there, or the basic difference between a serial show where each episode has nothing to do with the next, and a show where each episode is a link in a chain. I'm sure there are episodes of Law & Order that talk about schools, but they are in no way comparable to an extended focus on schools for an entire season.

The theme of S1 has already been mentioned, and each time you ignore it. I'm going to go back to discussing the show, not your ridiculous misinterpretation of it.

Listen to yourself - you're simply saying that having a serial season vs a episodic season somehow moves the show beyond the label of "police procedural". Serial or Episodic has absolutely nothing to do with "police procedural" - several procedural shows have had in the past multiple episode extended cases. (Prime suspect for instance aired a case over four episodes sometimes)
(Never mind the absurdity of talking about schools when we are talking about whether Season 1 was a police procedural - s1 had nothing to do with schools in terms of plot)

I've repeatedly asked for concrete plot elements from Season 1 that are outside the scope of a police procedural - and I'm not seeing any. And I'm being unreasonable?

 

[BorkBork]

Fruit grower: Eat this.

*tnsply100 takes a bite, hates it, proceeds to eat the entire thing nonetheless.*

tnsply100: This is terrible and a bad orange.

Reasonable person: Wha? That looks like an apple, and it's a great apple.

tnsply100: No it's not. It's an orange, a terrible orange. I was misled. I wish it was like the other oranges I've had.

Reasonable person: WTF? It looks like an apple, it tastes like an apple. How can you think it's an orange?

tnsply100: The guy who gave me this even told me it's an orange!

Reasonable person: No... he said it's an apple. He's an apple grower.

Grower: Yup, that's an apple.

tnsply100: I hate this orange. It should have been a better orange. The description and explanation of why you think it's an apple are all subjective and therefore invalid.

Reasonable person: .....

A summary of the last page.

 

[m3k]

hey

i really liked season 2! i thought what was great about the wire apart from the totally subliminal sub plots was that the character development for the 'bad' guys was far beyond most other shows had completed

and season 4 wasnt terrible, it just couldnt be as good as the other seasons when there is a big focus on students and teaching... i really felt for the dukie guy who ended up being a junky

 

[m3k]

Listen to yourself - you're simply saying that having a serial season vs a episodic season somehow moves the show beyond the label of "police procedural". Serial or Episodic has absolutely nothing to do with "police procedural" - several procedural shows have had in the past multiple episode extended cases. (Prime suspect for instance aired a case over four episodes sometimes)
(Never mind the absurdity of talking about schools when we are talking about whether Season 1 was a police procedural - s1 had nothing to do with schools in terms of plot)

I've repeatedly asked for concrete plot elements from Season 1 that are outside the scope of a police procedural - and I'm not seeing any. And I'm being unreasonable?

bodie, poot and wallace? i mean how many shows are actually balanced when looking at things from the 'bad' guys perspective, that alone makes it far beyond 'procederal' cop shows

i mean wasnt the premise of the first season to talk about the police? whats the beef

 

[heliosRAzi]

A summary of the last page.

A great summary. tnsply100 is looking at a dog and calling it a cat

 

[theignoramus]

If I was, I sure as hell wouldn't have allowed him to create some crap show about New Orleans... not even going to bother checking that show out.

Good. Treme most definitely doesnt need viewers like you. Generation Kill would be more up your alley. There are explosions and gunfire and the like in that. I mean, you would think the whole Deangelo angle would drive the point home(which isnt subtle) that season one was more than cop shop talk and perp walks, but hey....

 

[BorkBork]

It's blatantly obvious that the show was not another police procedural even in Season 1. I don't have to be a genius to figure out why this scene was shot, although it's a shame to reflect on each of their fate after viewing the later seasons.

S1:The King stay the King

 

[m3k]

It's blatantly obvious that the show was not another police procedural even in Season 1. I don't have to be a genius to figure out why this scene was shot, although it's a shame to reflect on each of their fate after viewing the later seasons.

S1:The King stay the King

memorable scene

be alittle slow, be a little late
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2Fv-nJCfrk&feature=related

one of the few bits with avon not doing business

 

[BobDylan]

wow tnsply100 you really had to come in here just to shit on everything

 

[chase]

A summary of the last page.

This is amazing.

This kind of argument is exactly the way I'd expect someone who says "leftist propaganda" to debate anything. It's the extreme cognitive dissonance that they need in order to continue to believe as they do.

 

[Sanjay]

Season 1 is indeed a police procedural - just like the pitch claims. Explain to me what plot elements are in Season 1 that "clearly show that the show is not a procedural cop show"?

Speaking of, how many procedural shows have HBO ever aired?

 

[RepairmanJack]

Wow, this thread....

It's so obvious this guy just didn't "get it". Whoever could possibly think the show suffered because it wasn't a basic procedural is absolutely just devoid of sanity.

 

[tnsply100]

bodie, poot and wallace? i mean how many shows are actually balanced when looking at things from the 'bad' guys perspective, that alone makes it far beyond 'procederal' cop shows

i mean wasnt the premise of the first season to talk about the police? whats the beef

"Balanced"? What do you mean by that? Bodie, Poot, and Wallace were drug dealers who turned into criminals due to some combination of circumstance, moral depravity, and pure lazyness (as opposed to mostly 'victims of circumstance' as Simon would have us believe). The Wire isn't the first police procedural to address 'why criminals turn to crime' - look at the plethora of cops vs robbers shows we have had over the past fifty years and you'll find these shows identifying everything from child abuse to poverty as causes.

Just because "CSI doesn't show me the 'bad-guy' perspective" doesn't mean the content matter is beyond the scope of a police procedural.

 

[tnsply100]

Speaking of, how many procedural shows have HBO ever aired?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_television_dramas

The above is a list of all "police tv dramas" per Wikipedia - (Wire is included in there ironically). Where you draw the line between "police show" vs "police procedural" vs "Examination of the American city" is up to you.

EDIT - list of HBO shows - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programs_broadcast_by_HBO

Not sure any of them would qualify - I've only seen a few.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

I have yet to see a single concrete plot element or abstract theme from Season 1 that somehow takes the show beyond police procedural classification. Sympathetic gangsters, horrible bosses, egotistical detectives..... all of this is firmly within police procedural territory.

How many shows would continue to show the life of an informer once he was no longer useful in an investigation? How many shows would have the central team of the show not only full of useless cops, but deliberately set up that way by the higher brass?




Quote from David Simon( Taken from The Wire: Truth Be Told)

"Think about the 1st few chapters of any novel you ever liked, say, Moby-Dick, In the 1st couple chapters, you don't meet the whale, you don't meet Ahab, you don't even go aboard the Pequod. All that happens is you go with Ismael to the inn & find out he has to share a room with some tattooed character. Same thing here. It's a visual novel."

 

[jay]

This deserves a new thread: A conservative watches the Wire

 

[RepairmanJack]

This deserves a new thread: A conservative watches the Wire

Or: A Law & Order fan watches The Wire, mad it's not more like L&O

 

[tnsply100]

How many shows would continue to show the life of an informer once he was no longer useful in an investigation? How many shows would have the central team of the show not only full of useless cops, but deliberately set up that way by the higher brass?

This is equivalent to me asking police shows have the breadth to show how "how papparazzi managers place few to no limits on their reporters - and yet celebrities ultimately manipulate these media reporters when they feel like it" ? (this by the way was one of the plot elements of an early Law and Order episode) Or.... How many shows have the courage to show "morally bankrupt minority politicians inventing rapes perpetrated by white defendants to try and affect political reform and address social injustice" ? (This was also the focus of another Law and Order episode)

This is precisely why trying to classify a show based on perceived themes is folly - I can start making grandiose statements based on the above episodes like "Law and order addresses the themes of misguided efforts to correct historical social injustice"... It can certainly address any theme under the sun - However, Law and Order is a police procedural - pure and simple.

If you're looking for detailed plot points of how bosses staff teams of incompetent police detectives, I'd need to do some real digging (and yet, I have no doubt someone has done this before). However, if you're asking for a general 'corrupt bosses try and sabotage an investigation by disallowing certain lines of inquiry and threatening dismissal' - I've already provided an example in this thread - Wire in the Blood. (A fantastic show everyone should watch IMO - even if you disagree with everything I say).

This deserves a new thread: A conservative watches the Wire

What the hell? I'm suddenly a conservative now - just because I find that Simon's show tries to lean too far to the left? Wow.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

This is equivalent to me asking police shows have the breadth to show how "how papparazzi managers place few to no limits on their reporters - and yet celebrities ultimately manipulate these media reporters when they feel like it" ? (this by the way was one of the plot elements of an early Law and Order episode)

How does showing an informants life when he is not involved with the investigation equal a plot element from a single episode of L&O? It is clear that The Wire is far more than a police procedural from the 1st series (as it was intended), just because you fail to see this is more a statement on you, rather than the show changing focus.

This is precisely why trying to classify a show based on perceived themes is folly - I can start making grandiose statements based on the above episodes like "Law and order addresses the themes of misguided efforts to correct historical social injustice"... It can certainly address any theme under the sun - However, Law and Order is a police procedural - pure and simple.

And the Wire isn't & wasn't intended as so - pure & simple.

If you're looking for detailed plot points of how bosses staff teams of incompetent police detectives, I'd need to do some real digging (and yet, I have no doubt someone has done this before). However, if you're asking for a general 'corrupt bosses try and sabotage an investigation by disallowing certain lines of inquiry and threatening dismissal' - I've already provided an example in this thread - Wire in the Blood. (A fantastic show everyone should watch IMO - even if you disagree with everything I say).

If you are talking about the Robson Green show that would explain a lot.

 

[tnsply100]

How does showing an informants life when he is not involved with the investigation equal a plot element from a single episode of L&O?

You're seriously asking me to present a scene from any police procedural where the informant is doing more than snitching to the cops? I automatically shifted focus to the rarer case of police superiors sabotaging the investigation that detectives are running.

Let me put this quite clearly - the ONLY thing Season 1 of the wire does that actually breaks new ground is that it goes deeper into the depths of a police investigation than any show I've seen before - something that drives the show even more into "cop show" territory. I cannot recall any other television show (as I've mentioned before) that dove into pen registers, beeper codes, etc.

As David Simon says "you will see a case from inception to close" - and that's precisely what we got. No interference from legalization of Drugs, mayoral races, kids in school, journalist plotlines, etc.

And the Wire isn't & wasn't intended as so - pure & simple.

... a fact that only makes itself blatantly clear once you approach Season 3's and its focus on Mayoral races, etc. But certainly not as early as S1.

 

[RepairmanJack]

Heh this thread made me realize

Is Light's brother in Lights Out. Somehow it didn't hit me at all 'til I was thinking about season two.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

You're seriously asking me to present a scene from any police procedural where the informant is doing more than snitching to the cops?

No, you can just show me a show that would feature an informant who no longer informed & had no use to the plot of the show anymore(if it was jist a procedural show)

Let me put this quite clearly - the ONLY thing Season 1 of the wire does that actually breaks new ground is that it goes deeper into the depths of a police investigation than any show I've seen before - something that drives the show even more into "cop show" territory. I cannot recall any other television show (as I've mentioned before) that dove into pen registers, beeper codes, etc.

How can doing something no cop show has done before take it further into "cop show " territory?

... a fact that only makes itself blatantly clear once you approach Season 3's and its focus on Mayoral races, etc. But certainly not as early as S1.

To you, to plenty of other people it was obvious that it wasn't a "typical" cop show by the end of S1 & plenty of material from the time(interviews etc.) states it was never intended as so. Also how did S2 not tip you off? Or is the death of industry a standard "theme" for procedural shows?

 

[tnsply100]

No, you can just show me a show that would feature an informant who no longer informed & had no use to the plot of the show anymore(if it was jist a procedural show)

Hm? What are you referring to? In Season 1, who stopped informing in and had an independent plotline that didn't have any relation to the case?

How can doing something no cop show has done before take it further into "cop show " territory?

By diving even deeper into police procedure?

To you, to plenty of other people it was obvious that it wasn't a "typical" cop show by the end of S1 & plenty of material from the time(interviews etc.) states it was never intended as so. Also how did S2 not tip you off? Or is the death of industry a standard "theme" for procedural shows?

If you're referring to the plight of the dock workers - I call that "motive". The dock workers (Sbotka and horsefase) were the criminals and the show explored the reasons for their turning criminals. Just like Season 1 explored the street dealer criminals and their lives, season 2 did exactly the same.

Is focusing on motive and environment of criminals not a part of cop shows? It certainly is.

Still, I'll grant that the focus on the dock workers was getting a bit excessive by S2 - but still nothing that 'screamed' "non-cop show".

Quite honestly its a little hard to think "non-cop show" when just about every single character in the show is either a criminal, snitch, or a cop. It was only around S3 and later where we started to see plotlines focusing on politicians, school teachers, non-criminal kids, etc.

 

[RepairmanJack]

If you're referring to the plight of the dock workers - I call that "motive". The dock workers (Sbotka and horsefase) were the criminals and the show explored the reasons for their turning criminals. Just like Season 1 explored the street dealer criminals and their lives, season 2 did exactly the same.

You seriously don't understand that all those were just parts of a bigger thing? It was all showing the plight of the city, the drug trade, and crime in general. It showed it from the aspect of the streets, the docks/trafficking, the politics, the schools, then the media. That makes it have a far broader scale then a simple police procedural that simply deals with cases.

You are really complaining because the show wasn't more procedural like?

The show was never a simple police procedural and was never planned to be. Plain and simple. I honestly don't even understand the argument anymore because that seems like it is very easy to grasp, and a very dumb thing to complain about when it comes to this show.

 

[tnsply100]

You seriously don't understand that all those were just parts of a bigger thing? It was all showing the plight of the city, the drug trade, and crime in general. It showed it from the aspect of the streets, the docks/trafficking, the politics, the schools, then the media. That makes it have a far broader scale then a simple police procedural that simply deals with cases.

You are really complaining because the show wasn't more procedural like?

The show was never a simple police procedural and was never planned to be. Plain and simple. I honestly don't even understand the argument anymore because that seems like it is very easy to grasp, and a very dumb thing to complain about when it comes to this show.

Let me turn this around -

If "cops vs robbers" was "just one of the many aspects of the city" that needed to be explored, somebody explain to me why it was made prominent in every single season.

Why did every single season feature cops going after criminals?

Why didn't Simon have the balls to simply focus on dock workers who weren't criminals?
Why didn't Simon have the balls to REMOVE the detectives after Season 1 - when "cops vs robbers" had been given its proper allotment ?
Why didn't we get a Season focus on the Baltimore sun reporters without the detectives playing a huge role?
Why didn't Simon we have a season on everything else that affects Baltimore? Interstate trade? Hospitals/insurance? Clothing industry? Food industry? Airports? Banks? WITHOUT those meddling cops and robbers.

Explain to me why these other aspects of the city are given comparatively minor screentime compared to the activities of characters who are detectives or criminals?

If you truly intend to paint the portrait of the American city - why the hell is 80+ percent of the cast a cop, snitch or a criminal?

Simon didn't have a problem dropping the dock workers and elementary school teachers when we moved to Seasons 3 and Season 5. Explain to me why the cops and criminals weren't dropped after Season 1 ?

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

Hm? What are you referring to? In Season 1, who stopped informing in and had an independent plotline that didn't have any relation to the case?

Bubbles( after Keema got shot) (also Bubbles friend stopped snitching & featured throughout the show, why?)

By diving even deeper into police procedure?

It is obvious from early on that it does things differently from cop shows(if that isn't a clue not to expect a "typical" cop show, what else do you want)

If you're referring to the plight of the dock workers - I call that "motive". The dock workers (Sbotka and horsefase) were the criminals and the show explored the reasons for their turning criminals. Just like Season 1 explored the street dealer criminals and their lives, season 2 did exactly the same.

The original investigation into Sobotka had nothing to do with criminal activity(another clue), no motive was necessary.

Still, I'll grant that the focus on the dock workers was getting a bit excessive by S2 - but still nothing that 'screamed' "non-cop show".

To you.

Quite honestly its a little hard to think "non-cop show" when just about every single character in the show is either a criminal, snitch, or a cop.

Or a politician, or a fiend, or a schookid, or a priest, or a lobbyist, or a duck.

 

[theignoramus]

Explain to me why the cops and criminals weren't dropped after Season 1 ?

Mcnulty is barely even in season 4. The police work that is there is a secondary element. The Kids and Bunny Colvin and Prez (incidentally EX police officers) and the mayor's office are the stars of the show. What does that do to your theory? The cop they focused the most on gets sidelined and two ex police officers are at the foreground in the story. Why would they do that in a straight up police procedural? Maybe because it wasnt a fucking straight up police procedural to begin with.

 

[tnsply100]

Bubbles( after Keema got shot) (also Bubbles friend stopped snitching & featured throughout the show, why?)

Keema got shot in the last scene of episode 10 - that leaves only 3 episodes. Precisely what plotline was Bubbles given after this in Season 1? He was dragged into the police station as a suspect while the cops were investigating who shot Keema - and goes back to snitching once McNulty tells him what happened.

Bubbles = snitch in Season 1 period. There are of course a couple of scenes here and there of him trying to get clean (of course affecting his abilities as a snitch)- but at no point is an inordinate amount of time spent on him.

Johnny was featured in Season 1 for obvious reasons - he was bubbles motives for turning snitch.
You're asking me why he was featured in later seasons? I though we are talking about Season 1 here?

The original investigation into Sobotka had nothing to do with criminal activity(another clue), no motive was necessary.

What? Obviously Simon was showing us the motive for the crime that would lead to Sbotka getting his throat cut.

 

[tnsply100]

Mcnulty is barely even in season 4. The police work that is there is a secondary element. The Kids and Bunny Colvin and Prez (incidentally EX police officers) and the mayor's office are the stars of the show. What does that do to your theory? The cop they focused the most on gets sidelined and two ex police officers are at the foreground in the story. Why would they do that in a straight up police procedural? Maybe because it wasnt a fucking straight up police procedural to begin with.

It does "nothing" to my theory. I asked why the police vs criminals plotline wasn't eliminated - nobody is arguing that it was competing with other plotlines for screentime.

If dock workers can be eliminated post S2 (yes, I know you see Nick again for a Cameo in S5).... If the school teachers can be eliminated in S5.... Why wasn't the cops vs robbers storyline dropped entirely.

If The Wire is the portrait of an American city WHY is the cops vs robbers story given screentime in every single season. Why wasn't it just eliminated after Season 1? Why was the cast 80 percent cops and robbers?

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

Let me turn this around -

If "cops vs robbers" was "just one of the many aspects of the city" that needed to be explored, somebody explain to me why it was made prominent in every single season.

Why did every single season feature cops going after criminals?

Why didn't Simon have the balls to simply focus on dock workers who weren't criminals?
Why didn't Simon have the balls to REMOVE the detectives after Season 1 - when "cops vs robbers" had been given its proper allotment ?
Why didn't we get a Season focus on the Baltimore sun reporters without the detectives playing a huge role?
Why didn't Simon we have a season on everything else that affects Baltimore? Interstate trade? Hospitals/insurance? Clothing industry? Food industry? Airports? Banks? WITHOUT those meddling cops and robbers.

Explain to me why these other aspects of the city are given comparatively minor screentime compared to the activities of characters who are detectives or criminals?

If you truly intend to paint the portrait of the American city - why the hell is 80+ percent of the cast a cop, snitch or a criminal?

Simon didn't have a problem dropping the dock workers and elementary school teachers when we moved to Seasons 3 and Season 5. Explain to me why the cops and criminals weren't dropped after Season 1 ?

How would you show the cyclical nature of Baltimore if you got rid of characters after a single series( the last montage in S5 would have been meaningless unless we had fo9llowed some of those characters from the beginning).

Another quote from David Simon:

"Swear to God, it was never a cop show. And though there were cops & gangsters aplenty, it was never entirely appropriate to classify it as a crime story, though the spine of every season was certain to be a police investigation in Baltimore, Maryland.
But to say so a decade ago( written in 2009), back when The Wire 1st premiered on HBO, would have been to invite certain ridicule."

 

[RepairmanJack]

Johnny was featured in Season 1 for obvious reasonsYou're asking me why he was featured in later seasons? I though we are talking about Season 1 here?

I see what you're doing...

trollface.jpg

Spoiler

You just keep changing the argument.

 

[tnsply100]

I see what you're doing...

trollface.jpg

Spoiler

You just keep changing the argument.

The argument has ALWAYS been that Season 1 was a police procedural - and that the other "ambitions" of the show did not start to become apparent till Season 3, and to a lesser extent in Season 2.

Would you like me to paste my own quotes that say this?

 

[tnsply100]

How would you show the cyclical nature of Baltimore if you got rid of characters after a single series( the last montage in S5 would have been meaningless unless we had fo9llowed some of those characters from the beginning).

That's David Simon's problem - make the cycles shorter and have them appear at every Season's boundary for instance (that would be one possible solution).

In either case, NOTHING justifies for "the tale of an American city" to have 80+ percent of its characters be cops or criminals. It is obvious that "cops vs robbers" was more than "just one aspect" the show wanted to cover.

Another quote from David Simon:

"Swear to God, it was never a cop show. And though there were cops & gangsters aplenty, it was never entirely appropriate to classify it as a crime story, though the spine of every season was certain to be a police investigation in Baltimore, Maryland.
But to say so a decade ago( written in 2009), back when The Wire 1st premiered on HBO, would have been to invite certain ridicule."

That's right - read that you jokers -

Cops vs Robbers is the SPINE of the show. - David Simon himself.

I'm being attacked because I tuned into the show to watch on its SPINE, and desired that the Spine be stronger. I'm so unreasonable...

It was never "entirely appropriate to classify it as a crime story"... presumably it was "almost appropriate to classify it as a crime story".

 

[Messypandas]

Why didn't Simon have the balls to simply focus on dock workers who weren't criminals?
Why didn't Simon have the balls to REMOVE the detectives after Season 1 - when "cops vs robbers" had been given its proper allotment ?
Why didn't we get a Season focus on the Baltimore sun reporters without the detectives playing a huge role?
Why didn't Simon we have a season on everything else that affects Baltimore? Interstate trade? Hospitals/insurance? Clothing industry? Food industry? Airports? Banks? WITHOUT those meddling cops and robbers.

Because the show is all about the Baltimore 'drug war' Not about Baltimore. The show focuses on the various communities that help either speed up or impede the distribution of drugs. The Docks are the main source of importing, the political system shows the pressures on the 'chain of command' and the failing education system shows why most of the kids are destined to work the corners.

 

[theignoramus]

I assume its because the writers wanted us to examine Baltimore through the institutions of the state versus institutions of the underclass..they wanted the criminal institutions to be a persistent element of that.

 

[tnsply100]

Because the show is all about the Baltimore 'drug war' Not about Baltimore.

You people always confuse me..... Just a few posts ago - I had people jumping down my throat saying The Wire was about Baltimore. Now I got people saying it is "Not about Baltimore"

Which is it? Baltimore? American City? Drug War? Baltimore Drug war? Cops vs Robbers?

 

[RepairmanJack]

That's right - read that you jokers -

Cops vs Robbers is the SPINE of the show. - David Simon himself.

I'm being attacked because I tuned into the show to watch on its SPINE.

Of course that's the part you take from the quote, even though he said an investigation in Baltimore was the spine, not "cops vs robbers". The point of the quote is where he says, it is NOT a cop show.

I don't think you are getting attacked about what you tuned in for, it's the fact that you are complaining that it wasn't just a simple police procedural that is probably causing you to catch flack.

 

[PhoenixDark]

That's right - read that you jokers -

Cops vs Robbers is the SPINE of the show. - David Simon himself.

I'm being attacked because I tuned into the show to watch on its SPINE.

The fact that you could read that quote and repeat the same nonsense you've been saying for three days is stunning. Simon says it's not a cop show, and you say it's a cop v robbers show. Brilliant.

Of course a criminal investigation is at the heart (or spine) of every season, with the themes surrounding it. In S2 the dying industrial sector getting sucked into crime - from simple petty theft to a more serious investigation. In S3 the effect of reform - the meaningless "dope on the table" games and promises that can't be kept. In S4, the education system - overlooking kids as they're trained to take over the streets. And in S5 the media and its "coverage" of inner city crime.

No one has denied The Wire focuses on a criminal investigation each season. The question has been raised whether The Wire is a "cop show" or something else. Simon and every other person says it's not. You continue to focus on S1 when there are five damn seasons of the show. Every season has a deep focus on crime, not just S1. And as has been discussed, even S1 features a grander theme.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

That's David Simon's problem - make the cycles shorter and have them appear at every Season's boundary for instance (that would be one possible solution).

You asked for a reason why, either give an actual example(that wouldn't neuter the point) of how he could do this or except it as a valid reason.

In either case, NOTHING justifies for "the tale of an American city" to have 80+ percent of its characters be cops or criminals. It is obvious that "cops vs robbers" was more than "just one aspect" the show wanted to cover.

Yeah a tale of a city with one of the highest rates of violent crime in America should have little to do with the police & criminals.

That's right - read that you jokers -

Cops vs Robbers is the SPINE of the show. - David Simon himself.

I'm being attacked because I tuned into the show to watch on its SPINE, and desired that the Spine be stronger. I'm so unreasonable...

Swear to God, it was never a cop show

 

[Snuggles]

This show is so great. I've been watching it a 2nd time with the girlfriend, we're up to Season 4, and it's just as good as the first time. There are a lot of small details that I missed.

 

[tnsply100]

You asked for a reason why, either give an actual example(that wouldn't neuter the point) of how he could do this or except it as a valid reason.

I just gave you a perfectly valid example - Have the seasons span longer periods of time - have the cycle concerning the police force begin and end in Season 1 itself.

Yeah a tale of a city with one of the highest rates of violent crime in America should have little to do with the police & criminals.

Don't put words into my mouth.

 

[RepairmanJack]

I just gave you a perfectly valid example - Have the seasons span longer periods of time - have the cycle concerning the police force begin and end in Season 1 itself.


Don't put words into my mouth.

Swear to God, it was never a cop show

Just going to quote this, since you seem to ignore this and all other logic in this thread.