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[cormack12]

Lazar's Artstation portfolio - for context

So, the whole thing that sparked this weeks controversy was the lady character from DMC5. Layna's point was that the feminine features of the character had been made more 'androgynous' I guess is the word. She illustrated this here:



Then, she used a quick and dirty 'liquify filter' in photoshop to mimic the old proportions of the character's face, which was the retweeted by XaiverCK from Insomniac



Who then proceeded with a string of stuff like this



XavierCK's followers then launched the usual blistering twitter attack against Layna, which prompted this response:



It appears she has already had run-ins with Xavier in the past






In which he alludes, he was also a victim of twitter followers attempting to get him fired - Lazar contests this as misrepresentation (the 'porn' classification as opposed to pro-sexual art)



Which led to this statement from Layna






#teamCK or #teamLazar?

 

[Clear]

Twitter is a game for losers. The only way to win, is not to play.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Xavier is just another in a long line of infants who denigrate themselves and bend over backwards to be "progressive". Anyone who agrees with comments like this:

...is just disgusting.

 

[TeamGhobad]

#TeamLayna

relevant:

 

[Jon Neu]

Wait, she isn't white?

 

[Akira1983]

Yeah I’m really not seeing her side here

There’s enough games with unrealistically attractive women and anime proportions I’m not sure why you see one character in a game that’s maybe more realistic and say “why? Who asked for this?!”

If that woman is “frumpy” your perception of reality is completely shattered

Such a strange reaction

 

[Akira1983]

Also just clicked the link to her art portfolio

Woof

But that’s the beauty of it, some people like that stuff so go for it

Wouldn’t the same be said for the artists who made the character she was critiquing?

 

[dirthead]

You don't want girls to have Akira's jawline from Virtua Fighter 1? You monster.

 

[hariseldon]

Hint of misogyny in A Akira1983 's post there. The old models aren't unrealistic fap-bait, they're perfectly reasonable depictions of confident women. I notice that attractive real women attract a lot of this kind of commentary too from the alt left and it's really weird to see the kind of attitude from that side of the fence.

The issue here is direction of travel. The masculination of a confident female character, the puritanical removal of anything that might be considered sexy, you and I both know this won't be enough, it's the thin end of the wedge, and before long we'll have either a butch lesbian or an obese person in place of what was previously a healthy representation of a confident woman.

Why do you hate confident women Akira?

 

[SirTerry-T]

Yeah, that Xavier fella acted like a twat..twatter?!
Art is very much in the eye of the beholder but he didn't do himself any favours there. Quite unprofessional really.

 

[Domisto]

You don't want girls to have Akira's jawline from Virtua Fighter 1? You monster.

HAWT! 10/10 Would paint eyebrows again.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Yeah I’m really not seeing her side here

There’s enough games with unrealistically attractive women and anime proportions I’m not sure why you see one character in a game that’s maybe more realistic and say “why? Who asked for this?!”

If that woman is “frumpy” your perception of reality is completely shattered

Such a strange reaction

Yea, I am not really seeing your side here.

There are enough games with redesigned characters to push socio-political agendas. I'm not sure why you see one character in a game that's maybe more realistic and say "Why? Who asked for this?!"

If her original design was "unrealistically attractive with anime proportions", then your perception of reality is completely shattered.

Such a strange reaction.

 

[Three]

Hint of misogyny in A Akira1983 's post there. The old models aren't unrealistic fap-bait, they're perfectly reasonable depictions of confident women. I notice that attractive real women attract a lot of this kind of commentary too from the alt left and it's really weird to see the kind of attitude from that side of the fence.

The issue here is direction of travel. The masculination of a confident female character, the puritanical removal of anything that might be considered sexy, you and I both know this won't be enough, it's the thin end of the wedge, and before long we'll have either a butch lesbian or an obese person in place of what was previously a healthy representation of a confident woman.

Why do you hate confident women Akira?

Because when the only 'confident women' actual women see are size 9 with huge tits and a pointy jawline they aspire to be that. I mean there is nothing wrong with any of the models. Nothing suggests one is more confident than the other. The old ones are fine even the new ones are fine (though I find them all to be somewhat odd on the clothing department). It's when people complain about either side. Make what you want to make. If somebody makes a model that is a size 9 barbie doll with huge tits it doesn't make them a henitia watching pedophile. If somebody makes a somewhat butch looking/normal woman it doesn't make them a SJW out to stop your fun. I wish the extremists on both sides would just shut up, quit complaining and enjoy whatever they enjoy.

 

[hariseldon]

Another misogynist making negative judgements about a female based on looks. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

5 minutes ago I didn't know who anyone involved in this were, and I should be able to sue Twitter for changing that.

 

[Three]

Another misogynist making negative judgements about a female based on looks. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

Is this referring to me? How was anything I said misogynist?

 

[Mochilador]

That Lady face really looks weird, like she gained weight or something.

 

[Akira1983]

Another misogynist making negative judgements about a female based on looks. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

Lol, okay

 

[cormack12]

Wait, she isn't white?

I think she is referring to the DM's she has been getting specifically calling her out as being white. Like when people suddenly start calling Louis CK an old out of touch white man, when he was always white.

There’s enough games with unrealistically attractive women and anime proportions I’m not sure why you see one character in a game that’s maybe more realistic and say “why? Who asked for this?!”

I don't think you've actually read the entire exchange. This is about changing an already established character that has 'fans' when no one has raised an eyebrow or query about it. It would be like in Horizon 2, changing Aloy to be less muscular and 'fit' into a petite-like waifu.

Woof

Lol, okay

Oh right, you're one of those. Never mind.

 

[wvnative]

Uhh...

What? I don't even quite underst-

Nah nvm. Just some twitter outrage

 

[Northeastmonk]

Lady probably won't be so stocky. I honestly think that artwork of her is more about her maturity than her body. Look at Dante in DMC3, straps, sharp chin, and his attitude. Like Resident Evil, DMC characters also age.

She may not have the edgy, "I could be your enemy or your friend" personality, or she might just take a stocky photo when she's facing the camera.

Honestly, Dante might not be the old, toothless, maniac driving a motorcycle, but the public's perception or "Twitter" doesn't see that.

Lady looks like she's got a few extra pounds, but that's all perception. I honestly think Lady looks great and we haven't seen her in action to determine anything.

This Lady in DMC5 probably has more of a personality. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that better than just being a sex symbol?

 

[Catphish]

Friends don't let friends twit.

 

[Deleted member 740922]

I'm glad I have no idea who anyone is involved in any of all this - plus I don't really know what they're arguing about.

 

[Three]

I don't think you've actually read the entire exchange. This is about changing an already established character that has 'fans' when no one has raised an eyebrow or query about it. It would be like in Horizon 2, changing Aloy to be less muscular and 'fit' into a petite-like waifu.

How many times has Dante and Neros looks changed in DMC? This wouldn't be like changing alloy because characters in that game were not following a specific type of facial characteristic which they have replaced (most likely to help in facial animations for actual faces of actors now)

 

[decisions]

Lazar has a point. I'm stoked for DMC5, but Lady's design is pretty awful. Her outfit is just horrible to look at it, I mean really if that's the best they had to come up with they should've just taken her DMC3 design, which is totally awesome. She doesn't look like herself. I feel the same way about the face of every character to some degree tbh, except Nero he looks great.


Couldn't care less about the "drama", as I gazed over the Tweets and don't really see how they follow from one another and am going to just think about something that seems more worthwhile. lol

 

[TGO]

Yeah I’m really not seeing her side here

There’s enough games with unrealistically attractive women and anime proportions I’m not sure why you see one character in a game that’s maybe more realistic and say “why? Who asked for this?!”

If that woman is “frumpy” your perception of reality is completely shattered

Such a strange reaction

Models for DMC3 and DMC5 are both realistic.
And yes DMC5's Lady is either a Pro Wrestler or a woman with no shape.
Which is not your average woman.
Same with tall and lanky is not your average person.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

Maybe they changed Lady's look to show her aging? IDK...

 

[Paracelsus]

How many times has Dante and Neros looks changed in DMC? This wouldn't be like changing alloy because characters in that game were not following a specific type of facial characteristic which they have replaced (most likely to help in facial animations for actual faces of actors now)

You are the current heavyweight strawman champion of 2019, try to keep the reign going for a while, we don't want hotshotting. They changed him like they changed Chris, to cater to people into burly macho men because americans only clearly like those type of men.
In the case of Lady, as well as other Capcom women (not one, like all of them) it's definitely a deliberate attempt to cater to the sensibilities of feminists.

Maybe they changed Lady's look to show her aging? IDK...

When you age your cheeks sag, but you don't get a man's jaw. Much less, a man's shoulders.

 

[SirTerry-T]

Lazar has a point. I'm stoked for DMC5, but Lady's design is pretty awful. Her outfit is just horrible to look at it, I mean really if that's the best they had to come up with they should've just taken her DMC3 design, which is totally awesome. She doesn't look like herself. I feel the same way about the face of every character to some degree tbh, except Nero he looks great.


Couldn't care less about the "drama", as I gazed over the Tweets and don't really see how they follow from one another and am going to just think about something that seems more worthwhile. lol

Yeah, my own problems with the changes made to Lady's character are not so much the changes to the facial features (though with photogrammetry being used more and more in game development, we are in danger of losing some of the "character" from our favourite characters) than that outfit.
The outfit it's just over designed, and bottom heavy, making the characters silhouette look chunkier. She just doesn't look as refined a design as her earlier versions.

She's been "Leifeld-ed"

 

[Danjin44]

I personally don’t like the realistic faces in DMC5. DMC series very stlylistic and over the top action game and having hyper realistic faces looks weird and out of place for me. I said this before, but the characters in DMC5 looks less like the DMC characters and more like people just cosplaying as DMC characters.

Just imagine Bayonetta had hyper realistic face and body. To me it would suck the charm and fun out of Bayonetta.

 

[Three]

You are the current heavyweight strawman champion of 2019, try to keep the reign going for a while, we don't want hotshotting. They changed him like they changed Chris, to cater to people into burly macho men because americans only clearly like those type of men.
In the case of Lady, as well as other Capcom women (not one, like all of them) it's definitely a deliberate attempt to cater to the sensibilities of feminists.

And you know this how? How is it a strawman and yours isn't?
Voice actor of Nero

The strawman is suggesting that other games characters would change (and they have based on actors for facial capture on several games) to become fantasy waifu material and that is somehow the same as this change.

 

[Closer]

You don't want girls to have Akira's jawline from Virtua Fighter 1? You monster.

Wait, Akira is a Girl?!

 

[Ka-Kui]

I care very little about the argument between the two, but I will agree that Lady's design sucks in DMC5 when it comes to her outfit. She looks like a line dancer in a bar singing country music.

As for the face, almost everyone's face sucks.

Lady in DMC5 probably has more of a personality. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that better than just being a sex symbol?

The probability is quite the opposite. Lady 'had' a personality in DMC3. Lady in DMC4 is the same character in name only, for some reason they decided to turn her into a money grubbing trope that rips Dante off of money. Contrast this in DMC3 where she was driven by her hate of demons and thirst for revenge due to personal tragedy, she appeared much more mature and serious.

If anything it's more likely they'll just carry on with her botched personality from DMC4.

 

[Paracelsus]

And you know this how? How is it a strawman and yours isn't?
Voice actor of Nero

The strawman is suggesting that other games characters would change (and they have based on actors for facial capture on several games) to become fantasy waifu material and that is somehow the same as this change.

It's a bloody strawman because they casted an average joe and the result looks way better, meanwhile they casted pretty gorgeous women and the result was, Ada aside, a complete failure. I don't believe in coincidences.

 

[joe_zazen]

To answer Lazar’s initial question ‘who asked for this?’, all major media firms now employ sensitivity vetters to ensure none of their major global media properties become targets. It isn’t a new class of job as there have been specialists scrubbing products for particular markets for years, for example: movie studios ensuring no content will offend Chinese sensibilities. What is new is that overt female sexualisation will now damage American sales.

So, the answer is ultimately the shareholders’ content curators.

And btw, corporate commercial characters have always been designed for maximum profit. These artists are mercenaries in the employ of the global elite, not Jackson Pollocks or James Joyces or MLKs. If big tits and maximum skin drove sales, that is what they would be ‘arting’.

 

[lock2k]

I said it before and I'll say it again. Feminism (in its current form) is about leveling the ground in uglyness so low self esteem women can feel better about themselves. They can't stand beauty and want to make it like socialism. This is why we get these butch characters all the time.

 

[Xaero Gravity]

What the fuck have they done to Lady!? She's ugly now D:

 

[A.Romero]

These arguments seem so stupid to me. The people viciously harassing other people for stating an opinion makes me want to act like a true racist and homophobe just to spite them.

Years ago, during gamergate friends warned me about these people. I told them it wasn't a big deal and that the influence that they may have was very limited. It seems I was very wrong.

It seems in gaming, "equality" defenders are their own worse enemy.

 

[Geki-D]

I think Xavier has a serious boner for Layna, honestly. He wants to be involved with her and the best way to do that is through negativity.

 

[joe_zazen]

I said it before and I'll say it again. Feminism (in its current form) is about leveling the ground in uglyness so low self esteem women can feel better about themselves. They can't stand beauty and want to make it like socialism. This is why we get these butch characters all the time.

I see professional cultural critics as human beings driven by the same shit that drives all the other human beings; namely gaining power, resources, money, security, etc in order to maximize the chances of reproductive success; and it is important that this be hidden because seeing that in your own individual actions makes you less effective in that reproductive struggle. Identity is a mere fiction that helps increase gene survival chance afterall. It is best not to probe too deeply.

So, I suppose it might be some kind of unconscious urge on behalf of the unattractive to increase their genes’ probability of success. I need to know if these people were actually ugly. You’ll never see a research proposal asking the question though, lol.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

This twitter battle be like

 

[baphomet]

They're both fucking imbeciles.

But yeah, no she absolutely shouldn't look like a fucking anime character in a game that's art style doesn't fit it.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I said it before and I'll say it again. Feminism (in its current form) is about leveling the ground in uglyness so low self esteem women can feel better about themselves. They can't stand beauty and want to make it like socialism. This is why we get these butch characters all the time.

For sure.

Notice how any representative of a feminist issue is never good looking and always seem like a downer?

I found this random pub pic online trying to find a good example in 10 seconds of searching.... why is that you never see chill feminist like this who just like to get a drink after work? At one of my old works, there was a older and younger employees, and no doubt the younger ones were more outgoing like this (and of course preferred to hang more with their age group).

Pretty sure none of them were feminists. And no, the younger people were not all good looking like the pic. Just outgoing, smart fun people to work with or chill after work for a drink before everyone heads home.

 

[Dr. Claus]

They're both fucking imbeciles.

But yeah, no she absolutely shouldn't look like a fucking anime character in a game that's art style doesn't fit it.

Good thing her original design wasn't an anime character, so your point is moot.

 

[JimmyRustler]

To answer Lazar’s initial question ‘who asked for this?’, all major media firms now employ sensitivity vetters to ensure none of their major global media properties become targets. It isn’t a new class of job as there have been specialists scrubbing products for particular markets for years, for example: movie studios ensuring no content will offend Chinese sensibilities. What is new is that overt female sexualisation will now damage American sales.

So, the answer is ultimately the shareholders’ content curators.

And btw, corporate commercial characters have always been designed for maximum profit. These artists are mercenaries in the employ of the global elite, not Jackson Pollocks or James Joyces or MLKs. If big tits and maximum skin drove sales, that is what they would be ‘arting’.

Has this ever been proven so far though? From what I can see the only thing female sexualization causes is social media outrage. Was there ever a failure that can be attributed to female sexualization? I only see failures with developers obviously trying to shoehorn progressiveness into games (see Mass Effect Andromeda or Battlefield 5).

 

[SlashBringingHasher]

useless arguments. am not sure why is insomniac getting a lot of shit for not showing big tiddies for black cat. I wouldn't have minded it obviously but hey there is nothing wrong with what they did.

 

[Spukc]

no offense all i see is clickbait

 

[Three]

It's a bloody strawman because they casted an average joe and the result looks way better, meanwhile they casted pretty gorgeous women and the result was, Ada aside, a complete failure. I don't believe in coincidences.

No. I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. They got the actors faces fairly spot on:

 

[Akira1983]

Has this ever been proven so far though? From what I can see the only thing female sexualization causes is social media outrage. Was there ever a failure that can be attributed to female sexualization? I only see failures with developers obviously trying to shoehorn progressiveness into games (see Mass Effect Andromeda or Battlefield 5).

Explain mass effect andromeda?

Unless you mean those nut job conspiracies that the female characters don’t look “attractive enough” because of sjws or some bullshit

Ignoring the far more obvious answer that the b tier BioWare crew assigned to the project can’t design or animate characters well in general

But sure. BioWare has an agenda. Lmao

 

[Danjin44]

No. I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. They got the actors faces fairly spot on:

God, the thumbnail just even more looks like picture of people cosplaying as DMC characters. I personally HATE realistic faces in DMC5.