-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
League of Legends World Championship 2016 |SEP 29-OCT 29|
- Thread starter zkylon
- Start date
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Flash is my Moby Dick, I must kill it. But yeah, flash has affected alot of design decisions over the years.
Give it a bigger damage window. Going in combat gives it a 10 sec cooldown. 3 seconds is too low of a window~
Boy don't get me started on summoner spells. As long as flash exists, it will always be the one I aim for in criticism lol.
Alternative to flash is... what?
BreezyLimbo
Banned
No flash.
Or baking flash into the game and not having it be a summoner spell.(Sorry, this talk about nerfing Ghost tickles my funny bone on talking about OP/strong summoner spells.)
Stone Ocean
Member
zky rejoice, seems like Faker wants an Ahri skin this year
not my #1 choice but at least there'd finally be a faker skin for me
i was still hoping for a tf skin for ambition tho lol
BreezyLimbo
Banned
yes
an ability that is optional, is ingrained into the games balance and general design
I mean, that's op, no two shaves and a haircut about it.
...I wonder if in the tutorial for the game, theres a prompt that says 'You always want to get flash as one of your skills. Just...just trust us.'
the thing about flash is that flash is cool while almost all other summoner spells are not
i'm with you that they should probably just make flash mandatory on everyone
also maybe we should continue these conversations about general game balance and whatnot in the proper league thread instead of here?
it's such a bummer that skt winning got drowned by doto talk
i'm with you that they should probably just make flash mandatory on everyone
also maybe we should continue these conversations about general game balance and whatnot in the proper league thread instead of here?
it's such a bummer that skt winning got drowned by doto talk
so what were your favorite moments this worlds? one of my favorites was in game 3 of SKT vs RNG when Duke kites MLXG and a girl in the audience orgasms.
seeing Huhi roflstomp ROX with Aurelion Sol in the group stage was pretty fun too.
seeing Huhi roflstomp ROX with Aurelion Sol in the group stage was pretty fun too.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
zky
zky pls
you're the one who brought up doto. in the past 36 hours I have not mentioned doto in any context to the discussion of champion variety.
i bet she was a bronzie
Flash consuming a summoner spell slot on almost every champion is just too thoroughly ingrained into the game's balance to change without a pre-season level rework at this point, and I don't think there will ever be a point in time where that's a cost effective problem to solve.
But that's also the same reason why it's not "overpowered." But it used to be utterly OP - over twice the range (1k) on a shorter CD too! Then there was the 450 range but popped projectiles with a 180 second CD flash, then finally we're at the doesn't break projectiles, 425 range 300 second CD flash, which the game has since been balanced around existing and isn't nearly as BS as its prior incarnations. Imagine this game with the 180 second flash, or the 1k range flash - those were awful times (well, season 1 in general was a clusterlove I do not miss, nostalgia be damned. You guys think THIS is a passive meta, god the heal-siege meta was so much worse).
Re: putting it on everyone's kit as a default button: the biggest problem with turning it into a core button on everyone's kit is that it means everyone now also gets to take either teleport, exhaust, or cleanse in addition to anything else they had, and that would just flat out murder the early game and make it even staler than it already is, in addition to making the mid-late game even more conservative if the threat of multiple TPs being free to defend or punish objectives forces teams to play way more passively.
re: fav moments in worlds: Definitely game 3 getting turned around for SSG. Even though it didn't ultimately go into a win, the absolute change in momentum SSG managed from game 3 on was wonderful and it was nice to see them force SKT to work for their worlds win.
Also the straight flash into ashe arrow for reasons of pure schadenfreude.
But that's also the same reason why it's not "overpowered." But it used to be utterly OP - over twice the range (1k) on a shorter CD too! Then there was the 450 range but popped projectiles with a 180 second CD flash, then finally we're at the doesn't break projectiles, 425 range 300 second CD flash, which the game has since been balanced around existing and isn't nearly as BS as its prior incarnations. Imagine this game with the 180 second flash, or the 1k range flash - those were awful times (well, season 1 in general was a clusterlove I do not miss, nostalgia be damned. You guys think THIS is a passive meta, god the heal-siege meta was so much worse).
Re: putting it on everyone's kit as a default button: the biggest problem with turning it into a core button on everyone's kit is that it means everyone now also gets to take either teleport, exhaust, or cleanse in addition to anything else they had, and that would just flat out murder the early game and make it even staler than it already is, in addition to making the mid-late game even more conservative if the threat of multiple TPs being free to defend or punish objectives forces teams to play way more passively.
re: fav moments in worlds: Definitely game 3 getting turned around for SSG. Even though it didn't ultimately go into a win, the absolute change in momentum SSG managed from game 3 on was wonderful and it was nice to see them force SKT to work for their worlds win.
Also the straight flash into ashe arrow for reasons of pure schadenfreude.
i think albus nox beating rox was incredible, that ending with likkrit going immortal on taric and hitting the nexus was super epic
intz' revolta going off on lee sin beating edg to start the whole tournament
then both kr vs kr series were amazing
faker going like "don't cheer too hard, we'll be back!"
can't remember right now, it's all a blur
intz' revolta going off on lee sin beating edg to start the whole tournament
then both kr vs kr series were amazing
faker going like "don't cheer too hard, we'll be back!"
can't remember right now, it's all a blur
Sr Kitsune
Member
Didn't he want an Ahri skin too the last time but Riot was like "eh, we are working in a ahri skin already, sorry. Choose another one".
How many worlds do Faker-senpai needs to win to get his skt ahri? How many riot.
Prototype Viktor
Member
You can flex Viktor, top, support or mid with top being higher risk
and jungle in s7 changes
MrCookiepants
Member
Viktor lacks chase? He can Q minions for infinite speed and tag ppl with a Rylais slow from long range laser. Once that happens you're never escaping him with all the slows and speed boosts.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Faker would be the best Faker player
Until Faker sees Faker inevitably banned in energy game Faker plays
PhillipCostigan
Member
flash is one of those that people complain about the principal of (false choice etc.) but anyone who takes more than a moment to think about it can see why it exists the way it does.
firstly, flash makes the game better. People make more decisions with flash, it's useful in a wide variety of scenarios, it has offensive and defensive use cases but the cooldown is just long enough where it feels significant when blown. Flash is super cool.
So why not make it mandatory? Ok, so what's the best way to do it?
Flash + 1 summoner spell of choice: blows for champs who primarily use ghost and makes it so that there's no room for a champion like that in the future.
Flash + 2 summoner spells: would completely warp the game. everyone probably now has flash, ghost and either teleport or heal or something. too much mobility. way too much.
Then when you really think about it, yes false choices in most cases are bad, but in terms of League's design Flash it's one that's totally ok and doesn't need changing.
imo... in case breezy starts taking my words as gospel again
firstly, flash makes the game better. People make more decisions with flash, it's useful in a wide variety of scenarios, it has offensive and defensive use cases but the cooldown is just long enough where it feels significant when blown. Flash is super cool.
So why not make it mandatory? Ok, so what's the best way to do it?
Flash + 1 summoner spell of choice: blows for champs who primarily use ghost and makes it so that there's no room for a champion like that in the future.
Flash + 2 summoner spells: would completely warp the game. everyone probably now has flash, ghost and either teleport or heal or something. too much mobility. way too much.
Then when you really think about it, yes false choices in most cases are bad, but in terms of League's design Flash it's one that's totally ok and doesn't need changing.
imo... in case breezy starts taking my words as gospel again
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I mean
Of course Flash makes the game better since for the past 5 years or so, design decisions have been made around the flash.
See I'm not against the concept of flash itself. Flash dagger it or something. But I mean...flash was a shit spell(remember when you had to reach level 12 to use it? loool). But like zky and others have said, the game design has become warped around flash.
Also let's not pretend those champions that prefer taking Ghost, are viable in any way. Who cares if they're hurt or not when they're not even competitively playable? We got what, Master Yi? He can operate with Flash. Nasus? He can operate with Flash. Cassiopieia? She takes Flash AND Ghost.
If anything, it's sad that an optional spell like flash has influenced Leagues design so much ;^) rito dug itself into a hole with it, doubled down, and here we are. Because they couldn't bite the bullet and just make a Flash dagger in the early years.
(Now that I think about it, it's funny that dota things like blink dagger, teleport scroll, and the teamwide fortify became summoner spells in league in the form of flash, teleport, and fortify, loool)
Of course Flash makes the game better since for the past 5 years or so, design decisions have been made around the flash.
See I'm not against the concept of flash itself. Flash dagger it or something. But I mean...flash was a shit spell(remember when you had to reach level 12 to use it? loool). But like zky and others have said, the game design has become warped around flash.
Also let's not pretend those champions that prefer taking Ghost, are viable in any way. Who cares if they're hurt or not when they're not even competitively playable? We got what, Master Yi? He can operate with Flash. Nasus? He can operate with Flash. Cassiopieia? She takes Flash AND Ghost.
If anything, it's sad that an optional spell like flash has influenced Leagues design so much ;^) rito dug itself into a hole with it, doubled down, and here we are. Because they couldn't bite the bullet and just make a Flash dagger in the early years.
(Now that I think about it, it's funny that dota things like blink dagger, teleport scroll, and the teamwide fortify became summoner spells in league in the form of flash, teleport, and fortify, loool)
I think you forgot about Olaf, he's viable in any meaning of the word. The only notable ghost instead of flash users are Hecarim, Olaf and Nasus. Unless I also forget someone. Hecarim is viable every now and then.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Breezy you think about this stuff on such a shallow level it's hard to have a meaningful discussion with you.
The very concept of a blink dagger is a bad solution to a nonexistent problem, especially when you consider how items function in League. You're trying to suggest the adoption of ideas from other games without actually fully considering the differences between the games, the implications of those ideas etc. etc.
you're talking about solutions to a problem you haven't even fully identified and thus completely ignore potential other solutions to the root problem (if there's even a problem there). Try to actually identify the issue with flash and then articulate why it is and consider all potential solutions before diving headfirst into pseudo-solutions.
Genuinely interested in what you have to say but these discussions are often frustrating because of this.
The very concept of a blink dagger is a bad solution to a nonexistent problem, especially when you consider how items function in League. You're trying to suggest the adoption of ideas from other games without actually fully considering the differences between the games, the implications of those ideas etc. etc.
you're talking about solutions to a problem you haven't even fully identified and thus completely ignore potential other solutions to the root problem (if there's even a problem there). Try to actually identify the issue with flash and then articulate why it is and consider all potential solutions before diving headfirst into pseudo-solutions.
Genuinely interested in what you have to say but these discussions are often frustrating because of this.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I like to boil it down shallowly, it's more fun that way. If I wanted to be critical about it with an in depth discussion, I would. But unless it's something like my current white whale, Champion Diversity, I tend to be facetious about the other things.
For example on boiling it down shallowly-The existence of the optional spell flash has warped the game design of league to take into consideration of Flash, therefore champions with dashes or blinks have to be adjusted correctly.
And that's it, really. Flash is the game balance version of Dragon master Swain for me. Wayback when in the old days, I would get in conversations with rito members over flash.
If I had my way, I would remove flash. But really, it's too late for that. Just like it's too late for alot of things with League. I was against the whole '1/1/1/2' meta shift nearly 6 years ago, I was against Riot 'enforcing it' later on(And was happy when in those early days they said they wouldn't), and I'm still against that stuff. But c'est la vie. League has shifted to a place where that 1/1/1/2 meta is the rule, League has changed where Flash is a necessary component of 99% of the roster, even Teleport for Top lane is necessary now.
Just like you shouldn't get baited into me being bitter about Dragon Master Swain(The morello part is true, tho. That was 4 years ago, and I'm still going to hold him to it), you shouldn't get baited by my hatred of flash(Although that doesn't come up as often in the main thread lol).
Kotetsu534
Member
I like Flash. One of its benefits that's sometimes overlooked is that it creates more "pits and troughs" in relative strength. Early game a champion like Rumble can be a huge lane bully, relying on his Flash to escape a gank while pushed up. But if he wastes it, he's a sitting duck for 5 minutes and has to accept more risk. Or a champion with more mobility can use it to play very aggressively and chase kills. But later in the game, having Flash up on immobile carries can completely change teamfights - so that even winning one 3 kills to 2 might not be worth it if Jinx and Orianna both use their summoners while Ahri and Ezreal keep theirs.
Sometimes you'll see a remark like "that was a successful gank" when Lee Sin blows Viktor's Flash at level 3. But actually, it's too soon to know if it was or wasn't - if Viktor's jungler helps defend mid lane, Viktor pulls the wave to his side, and Lee can never find a way back in, it was probably a waste of time. Or he might kill him twice in the next five minutes.
Getting the right balance between not wasting your summoners and getting value out of them has much more of a mastery curve than is immediately apparent.
Sometimes you'll see a remark like "that was a successful gank" when Lee Sin blows Viktor's Flash at level 3. But actually, it's too soon to know if it was or wasn't - if Viktor's jungler helps defend mid lane, Viktor pulls the wave to his side, and Lee can never find a way back in, it was probably a waste of time. Or he might kill him twice in the next five minutes.
Getting the right balance between not wasting your summoners and getting value out of them has much more of a mastery curve than is immediately apparent.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Lol, renamed to blink dag.... sorry blink step for pressing ceremonial reasons.
Terbinator
Member
https://twitter.com/FOXheavenTime/status/792944417887752192
EDG offer/offered $4m to Faker? Is there really that much money in Leeg?
EDG offer/offered $4m to Faker? Is there really that much money in Leeg?
killatopak
Member
That's a lot of money.
I wonder if Chinese teams get a lot of LoL sponsorship. Either that or they really want to win the championship.
I wonder if Chinese teams get a lot of LoL sponsorship. Either that or they really want to win the championship.
Stone Ocean
Member
4m is nothing for chinese orgs lol
Don't forget, this is what EDG's gaming house looks like
Except for the champions that can do just fine with Ghost+Smite. Please. You are grasping at every straw to find "HUUUUUGE FLAWS" in this game.
Do you work at blizzard? This is GENIUS! Next up: remove items because there tend to be best picks anyway. And thus, HOTS was born
(Ye, I know its sarcasm : )Stone Ocean
Member
Speaking of which, RIP EDG, Pawn and Deft left lmao
killatopak
Member
Why did Deft leave?
I understand Pawn leaving because of Scout but I don't know why Deft is leaving as well.
I understand Pawn leaving because of Scout but I don't know why Deft is leaving as well.
Terbinator
Member
It's a lot of money relative to the 2m SKT have won for Worlds.
Again I don't believe there are any hard facts out there about League revenues for organisations, but spunking 4m on Faker isn't the same as it for other sports where they can cash in on season tickets, shirt sales, merch, sponsorship etc.
Trickster
Member
Prize money for LoL relative to it's popularity is a joke. There's no doubt that the big LoL teams pull in many time that prize money a year through sponsorships and merchandising
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Just the hugest flaws. Have you seen Teemo?
Worlds 2017 should have a full-on compendium. Maybe not the gambling part, but one where you'd get a skin, ward, emote for your team of choice, and an IP boost for 1500 RP or something. 20% of proceeds to prizepool, and 5% to your team of choice. Also make a more in-depth pick'em online only for compendium owners with exclusive icons.
Riot, do it. And then call me.
Riot, do it. And then call me.
pls don't do any of this
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Eh
Theres nothing wrong with it
The only thing Id be against is putting in money to "level" it up. But having unique rewards would be a good thing tbh. Have IP used to infuse it/level it up.
Like Ive mentioned before, League already has numerous ways to take money from the player. Whether its mystery gifts or the chests. And this stuff would all be optional to players, so its not forcing you to spend money~
Why is this bad.
Why is a bundle with no gambling stuff bad. It's literally just a bundle, the exact thing they do now, just with a Worlds theme.
Sometimes I think you just hate things that are new. Does change scare you?
Hydrophobic
Member
I think that's most likely based on what happens to most of the korean expats who moved to other regions and didn't find success (in worlds).
Makes sense. If ROX stays together would they consider replacing Kuro with Pawn? I wonder.
Prototype Viktor
Member
2nd and third
LucidMomentum
Member
My voice is still shot from game three.
Fuck me.
I sound awful at work today.
But it was worth, fam.
Ignite was such a dope ass intro and the Staples Center killed it as a venue.
The crowd doing the wave during game three was so fun.
I don't even play this fuckin' game and I had a blast.
Might actually load it up once in a while.
Fuck me.
I sound awful at work today.
But it was worth, fam.
Ignite was such a dope ass intro and the Staples Center killed it as a venue.
The crowd doing the wave during game three was so fun.
I don't even play this fuckin' game and I had a blast.
Might actually load it up once in a while.
Sr Kitsune
Member
I'm just so happy we got a good series for the finals (game 2 didn't happen)
After hearing Silver Scrapes I was just happy with the whole experience, didn't really care who won anymore. Even if SSG winning would have been the icing on the cake.
After hearing Silver Scrapes I was just happy with the whole experience, didn't really care who won anymore. Even if SSG winning would have been the icing on the cake.
Stone Ocean
Member
CLG not going to IEM, say goodbye to half the roster.