Is this LeBron's fault? why is this a knock against him?
He can only beat what's in front of him
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LeBron James' NBA Finals record: 2-4
- Thread starter MagicWithEarvin
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Is this LeBron's fault? why is this a knock against him?
He can only beat what's in front of him
Liquidsnake
Banned
Its not his fault, but Kobe had the much rougher road to get to the finals.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
For the same reason people blame him for two Cleveland losses in the finals. It's easy and takes no thought.
Yeah, it's really hard with apex Shaq.
You can add that we also had a victory parade today in South Beach for Golden State.
WAIT.... You didn't make the playoffs and had a victory parade for another team that won the title? If this is true then the Heat fanbase forever lost the right to shit on any fanbase in the league. This is the epitome of loser mentality.
MY TEAM won two NBA finals games with what amounted to a depleted tired squad of backups. Respect to the Warriors and their fans not sad sack losers clinging on to their victory hiding the hurt at Lebron leaving.
*EDIT*
Is that Papi? I retract my previous statement and this is more of a response to Lebatard. Lebatard is the Daylyt of fandom. Heat fans, WE COOL for the most part so ignore this reply.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
that's the lebatard show trolling you again brah. you gonna be a mark every time they decide to mess with you?
Liquidsnake
Banned
No. I guess it doesn't
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
And he had a huge hand in building this team.
Some of these infographics are painful. wtf CBS Sports? They are the anti-ESPN Lebron hype train.
So bad it's good. Anyway LeBron's a great player and nearly won a Finals MVP Jerry West-style, but his legacy isn't as great as his talent (so far).
brianjones
Member
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
You mean the Spurs team they had to get through multiple times to get to the finals?
Why wouldn't it?
In my heart. ;_;
Some of these infographics are painful. wtf CBS Sports? They are the anti-ESPN Lebron hype train.
I know their point is active players, but you have to show Jordan's Finals record in this case, since Lebron wants to cement himself as the greatest of all time.
He's trying to say that Pau was the best player during the finals that year. People forget that Kobe had like 23 points in one quarter in one game that series the rest the team was completely flat that game. Kobe is a shooting guard he's not going to have the rebounds that small forwards have and his assists I believe were also tops for usually every year for the shooting guard position.
Liquidsnake
Banned
Kobe.
In my book, GOAT.
I have never seen an ice cold blooded assassin like him. Maybe not since Jordan. They just have a different DNA.
maybe not since Jordan? It's impossible to think of Kobe being GOAT when he's a worse version of Jordan
Jordan is in that Babe Ruth tier of athletes pervading societal consciousness. No one will be forgetting his name.
Jack Remington
Banned
Kobe's performance in 2012 hurt him in my estimation. They were in a position where they could have realistically won the series against OKC, and Kobe choked away the critical game in the final minutes.
2003 - Spurs series really came down to the role players. They were uniformly awful. I think Horry was something like 2 for 38 from 3. They win if he shoots his average, in which case they would have chipped easily after beating the Spurs.
2004 - His worst series. He couldn't figure out Tayshaun, which is really sad because he was able to repeatedly torch the guy in later seasons. Lakers win that series with 2006 Kobe, IMO. But the entire team shit the bed. Every role player was awful, and Shaq got beat to most critical rebounds by the much shorter Ben Wallace. Plus Malone was on one leg.
2006 - they were playing a team about as good as this year's championship Warriors team as their first round draw and were a rebound away from winning it.
2007 - Abysmal team up against another Suns juggernaut that was basically as good as this year's champion. Worst role players of all time. Kobe would have LOVED to trade Kwame for this year's Mozgov. Delly would have been an upgrade over Smush.
2008 - Celtics were just too goddamn dominant, but Game 4 was a true humiliation. I don't think the outcome of that series is the slightest bit different if you switch Kobe for this year's LeBron though.
2011 - It came out later that Kobe was playing on one knee for the whole Dallas series.
Still got five titles though.
2003 - Spurs series really came down to the role players. They were uniformly awful. I think Horry was something like 2 for 38 from 3. They win if he shoots his average, in which case they would have chipped easily after beating the Spurs.
2004 - His worst series. He couldn't figure out Tayshaun, which is really sad because he was able to repeatedly torch the guy in later seasons. Lakers win that series with 2006 Kobe, IMO. But the entire team shit the bed. Every role player was awful, and Shaq got beat to most critical rebounds by the much shorter Ben Wallace. Plus Malone was on one leg.
2006 - they were playing a team about as good as this year's championship Warriors team as their first round draw and were a rebound away from winning it.
2007 - Abysmal team up against another Suns juggernaut that was basically as good as this year's champion. Worst role players of all time. Kobe would have LOVED to trade Kwame for this year's Mozgov. Delly would have been an upgrade over Smush.
2008 - Celtics were just too goddamn dominant, but Game 4 was a true humiliation. I don't think the outcome of that series is the slightest bit different if you switch Kobe for this year's LeBron though.
2011 - It came out later that Kobe was playing on one knee for the whole Dallas series.
Still got five titles though.
The infographic is about Finals records for specific players, and I was trying to show why that's so arbitrary.
Kobe didn't even play the Spurs in 2009 or 2010, in any case.
I mean one. Gasol was the real MVP for the 2010 Finals.
None of this is meant to devalue Kobe, as he's a Top-Ten all time no debate. But what team you are on and what teams you played against determines Finals records.
gioGAF
Member
I have to agree. I don't get where the Jordan comparisons are coming from, is it because LeBron is also #23? It isn't even close.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
Kobe had Prime Shaq playing alongside him. The same Shaq that dragged an awful Orlando team to the finals while making penny look like he might actually be good. Kobe also pretty much owes one ring to Artest the same way folks always say that LBJ owes a ring to Ray Allen.
I'm just sayin, if you want to play that game then the only ring you can say Kobe legit earned was that one ring he got with Pau and co. oh wait it seems like Kobe always had All Star help in the finals wow how come i never put that together till just now.
I'm just sayin, if you want to play that game then the only ring you can say Kobe legit earned was that one ring he got with Pau and co. oh wait it seems like Kobe always had All Star help in the finals wow how come i never put that together till just now.
Longer isn't just height, otherwise I'd have used the word taller. But I also haven't looked at historical wingspans. Even then, guys are just more athletic these days. Effective length is more akin to catch radius in football. It's a product of reach and agility. I think there's a pretty good record of how athleticism has improved over the years. It's called the Olympics. So I stand by my claim.
Defenses are more complicated. Unless you think knowledge stagnated decades ago. The most recent revolution on defense was Thibs' use of overloading the strong side. Increased athleticism allows far more switching and trapping as well. I don't think it can be argued defenses aren't better.
I am glad he lost, but LeBron played this Finals with scrubs. Jordan ever even won a series with a roster that bad? I'm dead ass serious when I say I don't think he ever did.
LeBron is big enough to play PF. Size is more than height. He has a good wingspan and carries lots of muscle. Yet, he has the skill of the best PGs. Magic is the closest thing to him, but not nearly as good as LeBron. And Magic Johnson is my favorite player all-time.
If you think Jordan faced the same level of athlete in the 90s that LeBron has faced in his career, then we'll never agree. The Olympics show a steady progression in athletics since the time of Jordan. Basketball won't be immune to that same progression. PEACE.
Draymond Green wears 23 and he's undefeated in the Finals.
I take nothing away from Lebron, the dude is an athletic freak. In my eyes hes the GOAT tbh. And to all the people who say Jordan is, dont forget who Jordan had around him. Wherever Lebron goes they have gotten to the finals. Cant do much when your big man, and point guard go out though, so after Kyrie went out it was pretty much handed to GS to win the championship.
As someone from that era, I am sometimes confused if my memory is failing me, or if people have just changed their opinions of teams from back then.
Can you name the starting-5s from the two best non-Bulls Eastern teams during any one of Jordan's championship years? I ask because depending in the year you choose, I feel pretty damn confident I can find two better starting-5s out west. I feel 1991 might be the closest season to what you're saying, but my memory might must be bad.
My memory is the choker Knicks and Pacers were the main rivals in the East, and only the Pacers had a deep roster. The Knicks were comprised of celebrated choke-artist Ewing and then a bunch of bums you couldn't rely on. I should know, I was a Knicks fan while Riley was there. This powerhouse East people talk about is not the same East I remember. During the Bulls' run, I remember lots of hopelessness. I did a lot of hate watching, and if it wasn't the Knicks or Pacers, there was no point even pretending. I mean, the Chicago Bulls didn't win 72 games and two threepeats against a strong league. The logical leaps made to keep Jordan at the top are a bit much. PEACE.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Of course he didn't. He always had a 1st Ballot Hall of Fame player next to him in Pippen. And with the later 3 rings, he had 2 (Rodman). Not including excellent players like Harper, Kerr, Kukoch, Grant, Armstrong and others along the way. The only position the Bulls were always weak at was Center, but those C's did their job well enough to not be the reason for struggling.
But no, obviously MJ never carried a team as beat up as these Cavs to the Finals.
sooperkool
Member
WTH, were you even around to see Penny play? Dragged to the finals? The Penny that averaged 24/5/8 during that run? The same guy that when Shaq got hurt the next season he averaged 27/6/6 and 2 steals and a block?
Some of you guys.....
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
He was just a looter in a riot though.
Jack Remington
Banned
Yeah, but their third-best player was Derek Fisher.
Those teams were thinner than Kate Moss.
I had a pair of Penny Hardaway shoes in elementary school.
Dude was a baller until he got injured.
These numbers are sad, but this has been basically Lebron's history with the cavs and playoff.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Yessir. Penny was a fuckin problem.
it hurts. but blind haters will ignore perspective like this out of convenience.
Jack Remington
Banned
Really?
Magic who no one even disputes was a top 5 all-time player "not nearly" as good as LeBron?
Dreams-Visions
Member
it hurts. but blind haters will ignore perspective like this out of convenience. it doesn't help their argument so why even entertain the notion that LBJ really did need more help. Funny thing is this year he HAD help; it's just that the help he needed was wearing suits and ties on the sidelines instead of jerseys and shorts. We'll be pretty deep when Irving, Love and Verajao are healthy. And with so many good players at the 4 and 5 spots, both of them should be able to play a little less time if necessary and stay healthier.
That said, and as I've said all season: CLE will have to address their depth @ PG and SF. Need a quality backup PG that can actually shoot the ball. Delly is a 3rd stringer at best. And we need someone who can come in for LBJ at SF and not look awful. We'll be okay at that point. 2 solid reserve players and good health away from a much better shot at rings.
Go Cavs.
Take centers out of the mix, I'd say he is #2 behind Jordan.
I do think Bron is a tough person to play with since he is everywhere on the court, spacing is an issue, sometimes I wonder if he'd be a better team fit if he was 2 inches shorter or played as a strict small forward...whatever, dudes a beast, I think he's a tool too, but beast none the less.
Warriors won the championship. They can only beat what's in front of them. Not that it's stopping people from making excuses for the losing team.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Not ignoring anything. This was GSW's game plan. This is what they wanted to do. GSW has a really good defense - best in the league this year actually.
All those players contributed in playoff wins this year. GSW was fine with LeBron getting 81 points a game if he had to put in all that work and nobody else could get a shot off. The Warriors *wanted* him to do it all himself instead of letting JR or Shump or whomever get hot.
Jack Remington
Banned
No centers?
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Duncan
With centers?
Jordan
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Nah, but see you're giving credit. Sports talk on the internet ain't about giving credit breh.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Kobe, Bird,Russel and Wilt are not better players than LeBron. It's hilarious too because if some of you (and Twitter) were around in Wilt's heyday you'd probably be leveling the exact same criticisms at him as you do at LeBron. Can't win the big one. Puts up empty stats. Disappears in the big moments.
Yes, really. Wait to hear what people are saying about LeBron in 20 years. We forget Tragic Johnson was a thing. Magic was every bit the playmaker LeBron is, but nowhere near the scorer. Am I wrong? PEACE.
Some of these infographics are painful. wtf CBS Sports? They are the anti-ESPN Lebron hype train.
2011 was all Lebron's fault, none of the others were all his fault though. 2007, no chance. 2014, that Spurs team played some amazing fucking team basketball. 2015, yeah, obviously talent and lack of bodies.
Fun fact, Golden State is one of 8 teams all time to have at least a 10 point differential during the regular season. 7 of those 8 teams won championships. The only team not to win a championship was knocked out by the team with the highest point differential of all time.
The biggest difference between Jordan's NBA and today is the amount of physicality that's allowed. Nowadays you can't lay a hand on someone dribbling the ball whereas Jordan had to contend with defense that would be outright illegal today. It's the same reason you can't compare QB seasons against guys from the 90s because of all the rule changes benefiting the passing game. Ultimately though, the lines separating Kobe/Lebron/Jordan/Magic are paper thin.
Jack Remington
Banned
He was a MUCH better playmaker than LeBron. 11.2 assists/game career average, 7 seasons with more than 12 assists per game. And they weren't volume assists like what LeBron racks up.
Say I concede Kobe, Bird and Wilt (I don't, but let's say I do).
LeBron is better than 11 titles Bill Russell?
Hand checking is so overrated. It's one of the weakest arguments against LeBron because he is a physical specimen. Hand checking isn't working against someone that strong, unless he's being checked by Truckasaurus. What would be fun would be LeBron back when they still had illegal defense for zones. There isn't a man in the league who'd be able to guard him. But I don't think players on that level are affected by man defense, hand checking or not. PEACE.
LyleLanley
Banned
Looking past the amazing amount of titles he has I'd say it's hard to accurately judge just how good Russell would be compared to modern day competition. Same for most of the hall of fame players from that era.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Considering the eras they played in? Absolutely. Titles are not everything. Russell played on stacked teams. Bird did too. As did Magic. LeBron was on a stacked team and when he did, he went to the Finals 4 straight years and won twice. That's pretty much matching the standard of success they set. No reasonable metric exists by which you can say that Kobe is better than LeBron James, and I say that as a Kobe/Laker fan.
If you gave me the choice to take any player in history from the age of 18 on to build a team around, regardless of era, LeBron is up there with maybe only Kareem. He has size, passing, scoring, defense, can play multiple positions.
Magic didn't look for his shot as much. LeBron can average that many assists if he plays solely like Magic. But he's also a prolific scorer.
Titles doesn't make someone great. Russell was great, but he didn't win 11 by himself. PEACE.
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