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LeBron James' NBA Finals record: 2-4

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PastorOfMuppets said:
When all is said and done, I think LeBron James will be considered the greatest to ever play the game. Even better than Jordan. People will forget James failures and begin to appreciate what he did just like how they forgot that Jordan was eliminated by the Pistons two years in a row and never beat Bird's Celtics in the playoffs or that he lost to the Magic in 1995.
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The Bulls lost to the Magic the same season that Jordan unretired late in the season and played only 17 games. Not a normal year.

And no one forgets that the Bad Boys were a thing. No one forgets Isiah Thomas or even Bill Laimbeer unless they're too young to have seen them.
 
Sequence Six said:
The Bulls lost to the Magic the same season that Jordan unretired late in the season and played only 17 games. Not a normal year.

And no one forgets that the Bad Boys were a thing. No one forgets Isiah Thomas or even Bill Laimbeer unless they're too young to have seen them.
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I think you took "forgotten" too literally.

Nobody cares that Jordan lost to Bird's Celtics as a young player or that he was eliminated by the Pistons and Magic. It's just not a part of his career narrative anymore. He's simply thought of as the GOAT. 63 points vs Bird's Celtics (in a game which the Bulls lost by the way), The Shot, game winner vs the Jazz. Two threepeats. Etc.

One day, when LeBron retires, he'll be thought of in the same vein. People will gloss over this loss to the Warriors and remember that he averaged video game numbers and was a legit case for finals MVP despite being on the losing team. Until that day comes, LeBron will have his haters who bring up 2007, 2011 and the 2014 God Mode Spurs. Just like how Kobe for a long time had people bring up Shaq until he led a team to the championship.

Nobody cares that in the deciding game of the 2008 finals, he went 7-22. Or that in game seven of the 2010 finals where he went 6-24 with 2 assists.
 
the story of lebron is far more compelling than that of MJ in his day.

no denying that MJ was/is the GOAT.

but i swear to gad there were a few plays in the last minutes of that game where LBJ got to take a dribble from behind the arc, take a look at the basket, shoot, and BONK. BONK AGAIN.

that shit aint clutch. people saying "he's TIRED!". give me a fucking break. MJ was playing deep minutes and getting elevation 3' + over people for game winners.
 
Jack Remington said:
Dude, LeBron loses his handle and stumbles in the first video and falls on his face in the second. His moves are slower and more basic than Kobe's moves in the video I posted.

There's a good argument to be made that he's a better overall player than Kobe, but his handles are nowhere near Kobe's. I doubt you'd find many NBA players who would agree that LeBron's current dribbling ability is on par with Kobe's dribbling in his prime, or that it's even all that close.

LeBron's handles are pretty good, but not even close to Kobe's handles at his best.
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I mean I could retort this, but I don't think there's much point in continuing. Believe what you want.
 
Yeah but we only think of it as "overcoming" now. After his second straight elimination to the Pistons in 1990, everyone was calling Jordan a choke back then as well. As heavily as LeBron is called a choke now (well as much as can be without the internet). There's a cool Reddit post with old USEnet postings of the NBA going back to the 80's and everything people criticize Kobe for was said about Jordan when he was playing as well.

Choke, ball hog, just a flashy dunker, can't play with teammates, ballhog etc. And less you think this was just exclusive to the 80's and early 90's, a lot of delusional Knick fans were saying this about him shortly after his first retirement.

When LeBron loses to the Warriors, a good portion of the internet thinks "Choke". When he won with Miami, a lot of people discounted it because he had a superteam around him. Then when he lost to the God Mode Spurs last year, he was a choke again even though Wade and Bosh stunk the joint up.
 
PastorOfMuppets said:
Yeah but we only think of it as "overcoming" now. After his second straight elimination to the Pistons in 1990, everyone was calling Jordan a choke back then as well. As heavily as LeBron is called a choke now (well as much as can be without the internet). There's a cool Reddit post with old USEnet postings of the NBA going back to the 80's and everything people criticize Kobe for was said about Jordan when he was playing as well.

Choke, ball hog, just a flashy dunker, can't play with teammates, ballhog etc.

When LeBron loses to the Warriors, a good portion of the internet thinks "Choke". When he won with Miami, a lot of people discounted it because he had a superteam around him. Then when he lost to the God Mode Spurs last year, he was a choke again even though Wade and Bosh stunk the joint up.
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That's just basketball. Nobody is good enough for NBA fans. It's the weirdest sports phenomenon where everyone sucks.
 
Finally beating Detroit in '91 followed immediately by Jordan winning his first title did a pretty decent job of redefining Jordan's narrative even at the time.
 
malfcn said:
gZydMTQ.gif
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damnnnn.... I need a new NBA JAM with that feature!
 
PastorOfMuppets said:
Yeah but we only think of it as "overcoming" now. After his second straight elimination to the Pistons in 1990, everyone was calling Jordan a choke back then as well. As heavily as LeBron is called a choke now (well as much as can be without the internet). There's a cool Reddit post with old USEnet postings of the NBA going back to the 80's and everything people criticize Kobe for was said about Jordan when he was playing as well.

Choke, ball hog, just a flashy dunker, can't play with teammates, ballhog etc. And less you think this was just exclusive to the 80's and early 90's, a lot of delusional Knick fans were saying this about him shortly after his first retirement.

When LeBron loses to the Warriors, a good portion of the internet thinks "Choke". When he won with Miami, a lot of people discounted it because he had a superteam around him. Then when he lost to the God Mode Spurs last year, he was a choke again even though Wade and Bosh stunk the joint up.
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The difference between MJ and LBJ is that once MJ got to the top he never relinquished the title. Everyone knew they had no shot. As a lifelong Knicks fan I have nothing but respect for that man. Although he tormented my childhood. Short of Kobe no one in today's NBA comes close to Jordan's will to win.
 
Kill3r7 said:
The difference between MJ and LBJ is that once MJ got to the top he never relinquished the title. Everyone knew they had no shot. As a lifelong Knicks fan I have nothing but respect for that man. Although he tormented my childhood. <b>Short of Kobe no one in today's NBA comes close to Jordan's will to win.</b>
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What's this narrative about? I can't be the only one to watch one legged old man Duncan remake his body and game to stay a top 5 big in the league. Just because Duncan doesn't get a Showtime documentary doesn't mean he isn't putting in the work.

Anyway, I think part of the reason fans count rings is that the elite players, especially as they get towards the end of their careers, will always say the goal of the season is to win a championship . I'm sure part of that is just saying the right thing, but I'm sure they believe it too
 
obijkenobi said:
What's this narrative about? I can't be the only one to watch one legged old man Duncan remake his body and game to stay a top 5 big in the league. Just because Duncan doesn't get a Showtime documentary doesn't mean he isn't putting in the work.

Anyway, I think part of the reason fans count rings is that the elite players, especially as they get towards the end of their careers, will always say the goal of the season is to win a championship . I'm sure part of that is just saying the right thing, but I'm sure they believe it too
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Duncan gets his respect. He just not flashy or an offensive juggernaut anymore. He's easily top 10 all time and arguably the best or second best player of his era depending on where you would rank Kobe.
 
I don't get the finals record obsession.

I mean Wilt Chamberlins finals record is 1-5. Yet would someone seriously claim Kobe Bryant was better than Wilt?
 
Cheebo said:
I don't get the finals record obsession.

I mean Wilt Chamberlins finals record is 1-5. Yet would someone seriously claim Kobe Bryant was better than Wilt?
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Wilt is my all time favorite player, but yeah Kobe is better. The era he played in proved it. That being said, 100>96, so no insult.
 
rambis said:
I mean I could retort this, but I don't think there's much point in continuing. Believe what you want.
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You can try to retort it, but I can pretty much guarantee that you are not going to find highlights of LeBron's dribbling that match Kobe's best dribbling.

LeBron does some things better than Kobe. Dribbling is not one of those things.
 
LEBRON KING JAMES said:
Lebron is the best overall player in the game today but the key is his moveset. His offense is limited compared to Jordan and Kobe game. Lebron don't have the handles, footwork, and overall shot creating ability that Jordan and Kobe had. Probably due to his bulk but he is a lot more stiff on the court then Kobe and Jordan. Lebron is dominate due to his knowledge of the game and his physical tools. Jordan could dominate the game with his fadeaway/midrange game which open up everything else for him. Lebron has yet to add that to his skillset.
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Jordan didn't add that fadeaway until the second half of his career when he could not just simply overpower defenders anymore. Lebron isn't there yet but its not far off.
 
PastorOfMuppets said:
One day, when LeBron retires, he'll be thought of in the same vein. People will gloss over this loss to the Warriors and remember that he averaged video game numbers and was a legit case for finals MVP despite being on the losing team.
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Not so sure about that as more advanced statistics that value efficiency are still gaining traction and by the time he retires they might be the first thing people look at. If that is the case, his stats won't look all the great from a historical perspective.

Yes, Jordan had some inefficient shooting performances in the playoffs as well but the difference is that he was collapsing defenses so his teammate's numbers were still quite efficient. The Warriors didn't change their defense at all to account for LeBron so his inefficient numbers were mirrored by his teammate's inefficient numbers.
 
Iadien said:
All of which had an injured starting PG. That helps, quite a bit.

Throwing up shit like that doesn't mean much without context.
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Lots of the others on that list faced playoff teams that dealt with injuries also. The injury discussion is stupid, and anyone wanting to put an asterisk on the GS title this year because of it would have to go back and add it to a hell of a lot of other titles won in the past as well.
 
XiaNaphryz said:
Lots of the others on that list faced playoff teams that dealt with injuries also. The injury discussion is stupid, and anyone wanting to put an asterisk on the GS title this year because of it would have to go back and add it to a hell of a lot of other titles won in the past as well.
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How is it stupid? Not having your starting PG, who typically runs the offense, is a huge deal. Being a Healthy team facing injured teams, don't try to act like that doesn't matter.

Just saying, if you want to discredit Lebron's runs, then it applies to everyone else as well.
 
Iadien said:
How is it stupid? Not having your starting PG, who typically runs the offense, is a huge deal. Being a Healthy team facing injured teams, don't try to act like that doesn't matter.
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So you're saying any team that wins a championship but faced injured teams didn't truly earn the title? So teams like that all should get asterisks now? Are the 89 Pistons not deserving of their win because Magic and Scott were hurt? Or the 87 Lakers against an injured Celtics squad?

I'm not talking anything about Lebron, just commenting on the Curry comment.
 
otapnam said:
http://www.sbnation.com/2015/4/22/8467163/lebron-james-nba-finals-eastern-conference-chart
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Of course, Duncan and Kobe have traditionally had better supporting casts and coaches, and the basic numbers used here don't account for injuries to opponents that may overrate the difficulty of the Finals paths. There's a lot of context missing from this basic study.
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Likewise, you could take the 50 win stat, change the number to 60, and suddenly Kobe is the worst on the list. And that stat includes finals wins, so if you really want comparable numbers you'd need to go "first 12 seasons, not including finals". Which probably turns out pretty similar to Bird. A lot of wiggle room there, as debunked in this piece.
 
Found the comparison Chris Chase made interesting looking at the first 12 years of LeBron's career compared to other greats.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/06/lebron-james-legacy-loser-nba-finals-two-titles-mvp

LeBron 2 titles in 1st 12 years
Jordon 5 titles in 1st 12 years
Magic 5 titles in 1st 8 years
Bird 3 titles in 1st 7 years
Kareem 2 titles in 1st 12 years

I'll add
Duncan 4 titles in 1st 12 years
Kobe 5 titles in 1st 12 years
Shaq 3 titles in 1st 3 years


I'll also add, that I don't think LeBron is going to win another the title as an alpha dog again because he won't let his coach coach, whoever that is. At least in Miami, Spo had some authority over him thanks to Wade and Riley. So, they would run plays to get Allen open for 3, or open up the lane for Wade. I mean, there was an actual offensive system of sorts when everyone was buying in, although this lead to LeBron carrying too much of the team when Spo was trying to rest Wade a couple years ago. Now though, LeBron does only what he wants, which is basically alternating with Kyrie to do isoball and then running Lue's defense. Compare this to the GSW, SAS, LAC, or MEM, where the alpha players do what their coaches ask of them to the best of their ability or pay consequences for not doing so. Also, watch out for Gentry running the Davis lead Pelicans, as Kerr had to lean on him a lot this year as a rookie head coach. The arms race in the west has only become more intense, meaning whatever team emerges will be very, very tested and experienced playing good competition.
 
What happens to LeBron when his athleticism declines?

LeBron James had a monster playoffs, but his jump shot was broken: Shot 70% at the rim, but 23% on threes, 31% on long twos, 36% on mid-range shots, 31% on short-range jumpers.

The 23% on threes is his lowest postseason percentage ever.
 The 31% on long twos is his lowest since 2008.
The 36% on midrange jumpers is about par for the course for him, LeBron's midrange game has always been the weakest part of his arsenal. (Something MJ and Kobe relied on)
The 30% on short shots is also near a career low, only 2007 was worst.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#playoffs_shooting::none
 
The injured point guard thing is like some awful meme.

As if Patrick Beverly or Jrue Holiday would have changed either series
full


I'll accept Kyrie, but that's about it.
 
Khalifa Jayy said:
What happens to LeBron when his athleticism declines?

LeBron James had a monster playoffs, but his jump shot was broken: Shot 70% at the rim, but 23% on threes, 31% on long twos, 36% on mid-range shots, 31% on short-range jumpers.

The 23% on threes is his lowest postseason percentage ever.
 The 31% on long twos is his lowest since 2008.
The 36% on midrange jumpers is about par for the course for him, LeBron's midrange game has always been the weakest part of his arsenal. (Something MJ and Kobe relied on)
The 30% on short shots is also near a career low, only 2007 was worst.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#playoffs_shooting::none
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It's probably several factors: He's getting older and thus he's starting to settle for more midrange shots instead of driving, he had to drive the entirety of the offense with KL down and Kyrie injured throughout the playoffs, and he's probably tired as all hell. He's gone to the finals 5 straight seasons and in one of those offseasons he went to the olympics.

His efficiency numbers were much better with the Heat but he had all star teammates who altered their game to better suit his. In the case of this season, Kyrie pretty much stayed a scoring first PG, Love had an even worse time adjusting to Lebron than Bosh did, and they had no legit outside shooter to keep defenses honest like when Lebron had former all star and future hall of famer Ray Allen and Bosh (who developed a 3 point game during the last half of their run together) so defenses had no reason to not make Lebron take inefficient as hell shots and double him.
 
Khalifa Jayy said:
What happens to LeBron when his athleticism declines?

LeBron James had a monster playoffs, but his jump shot was broken: Shot 70% at the rim, but 23% on threes, 31% on long twos, 36% on mid-range shots, 31% on short-range jumpers.

The 23% on threes is his lowest postseason percentage ever.
 The 31% on long twos is his lowest since 2008.
The 36% on midrange jumpers is about par for the course for him, LeBron's midrange game has always been the weakest part of his arsenal. (Something MJ and Kobe relied on)
The 30% on short shots is also near a career low, only 2007 was worst.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#playoffs_shooting::none
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He should transition to the 4 (but sort of a swing 4) like Green. He wouldn't be as good defensively but better offensively. Let Kyrie run point the vast majority of the time. So a sign-and-trade with TThompson for a great 3 and D type.
 
Lebron won't give up handling the ball so much. i personally don't think he knows how to play effectively without it. He never had to during his formative years and most of his offensive game is built upon the threat of a scoring drive from outside the key.
 
Kill3r7 said:
The difference between MJ and LBJ is that once MJ got to the top he never relinquished the title. Everyone knew they had no shot. As a lifelong Knicks fan I have nothing but respect for that man. Although he tormented my childhood. Short of Kobe no one in today's NBA comes close to Jordan's will to win.
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I am sick of the dog piling on LeBron (who is one of the all-time greats) but you bring up a point that is often ignored. Yes, Jordan didn't accomplish anything for his first five seasons. But does anyone care what a player does at the beginning or end of his career, unless it's extraordinary? What matters is how good you were during your prime.

Jordan was seen as invincible because he never lost during his peak. Even when he had busted teammates (like in the '98) season, he still willed his team to victory. I look at the ECF against the Pacers -- a significantly more talented team -- and remember Jordan doing everything possible to gut out that series. It's moments like that that make Jordan so revered. That's his true legacy.
 
Soren_lost said:
Sorry, but even with those two guys cavs couldn't beat GS in Oakland twice. It would have to have been in 6 if were going to down what-if scenarios.
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They won in Oakland once without Kyrie or Love. And nearly won a second game without Love (and a semi-hobbled Kyrie) in Oakland in game 1.

They came close to winning twice in Oakland without their healthy lineup, it is not out of the question they could with them.
 
offtopic said:
Curry up to 4 (3 this year alone)...
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Yeah but Curry has only been to the playoffs for about four years? Lebron has been to the playoffs every single season besides his first year in the league I believe. It just shows you how bad the East really is and Lebron honestly does get a cake walk to the Finals.
 
luknotluck said:
Yeah but Curry has only been to the playoffs for about four years? Lebron has been to the playoffs every single season besides his first year in the league I believe. It just shows you how bad the East really is and Lebron honestly does get a cake walk to the Finals.
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Yeah that was my point. He could easily pass LeBron in the next 2-3 years.
 
It's very hard to predict what would have happened in the series if Love and Kyrie were both healthy and played. Yes, the Cavaliers are a much better team with them, but that doesn't mean that they match up better against Golden State. Cleveland won two games by controlling the pace, playing excellent defense, and completely disrupting Golden State's offensive rhythm. Can that happen with both KLove and Kyrie on the floor? Does their offense make up for their lack of defense? I don't know. The only certainty is that Lebron isn't forced to pay 46 minutes a game.

There are rumors circling that David Blatt resigns today at the 4 PM media availability. If true, I can't blame him. He's a really good coach that got shit on all year by his best player and the media.
 
cubicle47b said:
It's very hard to predict what would have happened in the series if Love and Kyrie were both healthy and played. Yes, the Cavaliers are a much better team with them, but that doesn't mean that they match up better against Golden State. Cleveland won two games by controlling the pace, playing excellent defense, and completely disrupting Golden State's offensive rhythm. Can that happen with both KLove and Kyrie on the floor? Does their offense make up for their lack of defense? I don't know. The only certainty is that Lebron isn't forced to pay 46 minutes a game.
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Of course none of us know what could have happened. But, as you mentioned, we do know that the Cavs wouldn't have ran out of gas like they did in every damn game. We do know that Love is a beast in the post, can rebound, and can help spread the floor for Lebron with his shooting. We do know that GS cannot cheat off of Love or Kyrie on defense. We know that Kyrie can create for himself and others, just like Lebron. We know that players coming off of the bench could have played harder, not worrying about picking up fouls or conserving energy. Lebron wouldn't have had to carry the team the way that he did. etc.

Fjordson said:
The injured point guard thing is like some awful meme.

As if Patrick Beverly or Jrue Holiday would have changed either series

I'll accept Kyrie, but that's about it.
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Do you honestly feel that way? If you do, I shouldn't even respond to this post.

Patrick Beverly is a pest on defense, it's another defender to throw at Curry to try to disrupt him.

In the Memphis series, their starting PG missed game 1. GS won. Conley came back in game 2 and starts playing while injured, Memphis won 2 games in a row. In game 4, Tony Allen went out with an injury, who is their best perimeter defender, and barely played any minutes after that. GS won 3 straight.

If you try to say that Allen's injury didn't matter... Imagine what could have happened if GS didn't put Iguodala in the starting lineup in game 4 of the Finals. That's what really changed the series around. After that change, the Warriors looked clearly like the better team for the first time in that series.
 
Allen sucked ass once Kerr put Bogut on him on defense. Dude's jumper is nonfunctional and it played right into the Warrior's hands. He's only a factor on one end of the floor and his health wasn't going to change that. Playing 5 on 4 on defense is 2 ez.

But yeah, you probably shouldn't respond to my posts because I think you sound batshit insane. Warriors were a dominant team from day one of the season and the playoffs were just an extension of that.

edit: the whole injured point guards meme is bad from almost every angle (except the Kyrie one) but the Beverly thing is downright hilarious. The Warriors completely demolished Houston throughout the season, especially when Beverly played. The closest game between the two was actually the one where he was out lmao.
 
Marc Stein ripped LeBron for his treatment of David Blatt in his column today

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming

This part in particular stood out

Marc Stein said:
I saw it from close range in my role as sideline reporter through the Finals for ESPN Radio. LeBron essentially calling timeouts and making substitutions. LeBron openly barking at Blatt after decisions he didn't like. LeBron huddling frequently with Lue and so often looking at anyone other than Blatt.

There was LeBron, in one instance I witnessed from right behind the bench, shaking his head vociferously in protest after one play Blatt drew up in the third quarter of Game 5, amounting to the loudest nonverbal scolding you could imagine.

Which forced Blatt, in front of his whole team, to wipe the board clean and draw up something else.
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Ouch
 
I wonder how often Blatt second guessed his decision to coach the Cavs instead of assistant coaching Golden State after Lebron threw out his motion offense at the beginning of the season.
 
Why Lebron will never be GOAT and Jordan is:

Michael Jordan never lost three games in a row from November 1990 until he retired from the Bulls (for the second time) in 1998.
 
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