BumblebeeCody
Member
Isn't that whole point of Zero Suit Samus? You either play as Samus in her armour or Samus out of her armour.
It's like playing as Spiderman or Peter Parker in a Spiderman game.
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Let's talk about fanservice in video games.
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Isn't that whole point of Zero Suit Samus? You either play as Samus in her armour or Samus out of her armour.
It's like playing as Spiderman or Peter Parker in a Spiderman game.
I do wish the social justice outcry (for lack of a better term)would use their pulpit to spotlight games that get female characters right instead of only screaming about the ones that get it wrong. Anita, for example, was quick call Ubisoflt on their Assassins Creed Unity bullshit, but I havent heard nary a peep out of her about the existence of Child of Light. I mean there was the swell of support for Gone Home last year, but thats the only occasion I can think of.
I was going to say this. Zero Suit Samus is a descriptive name like Metal Mario or Toon Link.
Fair call to Ubisoft, she must have forgotten about Beyond Good and Evil as well.
Getting rid of attractive women in games isn't realistic, nor is it what we should do.
Look at characters like Tess from TLoU, or Elena from Uncharted. Both of them are very attractive, but they aren't treated as sex objects.
To me, telling devs not to put attractive women in games because of the over abundance of over sexualization is like telling devs not to create black characters because other developers have created racist caricatures.
I still need to play that game. I got the HD version linked to my PSN account; i should download it and play it before it gets delisted for some stupid reason.
Delusibeta
Banned
Ultimately, money talks and moaners walks. If this sort of thing isn't selling, it wouldn't be made, and that's essentially the end of it.
I'm going to argue that writing is a far more stronger element to a character than appearance. Counter-example to your arguement (that I made up): if the said "believable and realistic" character spent the entire game lusting after character X, while the less "realistic" characters being less of a one track mind. In that case, the "believable and realistic" character would probably also be the worst in the cast.
I'm going to argue that writing is a far more stronger element to a character than appearance. Counter-example to your arguement (that I made up): if the said "believable and realistic" character spent the entire game lusting after character X, while the less "realistic" characters being less of a one track mind. In that case, the "believable and realistic" character would probably also be the worst in the cast.
She likes Splatoon and No Man's Sky on her twitter. She names a ton of indies that she likes in her videos.
Maybe she didn't like Child of Light because she doesn't like princesses? I dunno.
For me, it's hard to name a girl in gaming that is never sexualized and never falls into the typical trope: damsel, fighting f-toy, Mrs. Man.
Maybe the girl from Ittle Dew?
See, I'm not so sure I agree with that. I chose Gothic art for my comparison because early Gothic art was like, all 100% religious, but secular art came into its own in the later Gothic period as society became more classist and devoted a greater portion of its focus onto non-religious pursuits.
And while I'm sure there are people who were converted to Christianity during the Gothic period after seeing a particularly beautiful piece of art, I think it's likely that those people were predisposed to conversion due to other social factors in their life, and the Gothic art was simply the "straw that broke the camel's back" -- the impetus that made them act upon that which was inevitable in the first place.
It's like all those activist groups claiming that Grand Theft Auto led to school shootings. I'm sure Grand Theft Auto was the final impetus for at least one shooter, but even if Grand Theft Auto didn't exist, something else would've filled that spot.
In other words, media does not cause social action. It can throw a person over the edge, but if it does, it simply means that person was teetering on the edge to begin with, and sooner or later, he/she was bound to fall off.
-Tom
BobbyRobby
Member
Great posts by the Xseed guy.
I think it's also worth considering that having fan service is a healthy outlet for horny otakus or nerds.
Having said media may satiate them and prevent real life creeping.
And like many have said, lots of girls enjoy seeing an idealized female form. I know I enjoy seeing Bruce Lee or Hemsworth without sexual attraction.
I think it's also worth considering that having fan service is a healthy outlet for horny otakus or nerds.
Having said media may satiate them and prevent real life creeping.
And like many have said, lots of girls enjoy seeing an idealized female form. I know I enjoy seeing Bruce Lee or Hemsworth without sexual attraction.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
I don't see anything to get turned on by when I see some ornately adorned anime chick. It just looks like a costume to me.
I wasn't jerking off to Oh My Goddess when I was a teenager or trying to live vicariously through it. I genuinely liked reading it, I liked the art, the story, and the characters. It's a blanket statement to throw an entire art style and visual eye for impossible fashions that can exist in an artificial world (whether drawn or rendered) into the perv category, even if there is some perverted and empty stuff out there, majority or otherwise.
I wasn't jerking off to Oh My Goddess when I was a teenager or trying to live vicariously through it. I genuinely liked reading it, I liked the art, the story, and the characters. It's a blanket statement to throw an entire art style and visual eye for impossible fashions that can exist in an artificial world (whether drawn or rendered) into the perv category, even if there is some perverted and empty stuff out there, majority or otherwise.
Notice that this hasn't been a problem in the past, 'cause in the past, video games were either considered to be for children or believed to be frivolous time wasters. Nowadays, video games are a huge industry, raking in billions every year. There are people who play video games as a job, get paid to write reviews for video games, or get paid to compete in video game tournaments. These are people who take video games seriously, and yet, it is still believed that the general public doesn't take video games seriously, meaning the general public doesn't take those who are highly invested in video games seriously.
These people want to be taken seriously whilst also continue playing video games, so they're trying to change the public's perception of video games. They try to distance themselves from other game players. "It's people like you who make me ashamed to play video games," or, "The reaction to [female character] makes me ashamed to play video games," whatever, all because they know that the general public will look at that pervert and think that all gamers are like that.
I really wish people weren't this way. I hate this division of people who enjoy the same hobby.
Did you see my list from a page ago?
Also: ah Twitter. That thing i use for the FF5 Four Job Fiesta and nothing else.
maybe i should get with the times.
I dunno, I enjoy seeing ornately-adorned anime dudes. I've even cosplayed a few of them because I found their costumes (or in the case of the Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne protagonist, their body paint) to be really awesome-looking.
Different strokes for different folks.
-Tom
Feminist art from the 70s was quite literally mocking society. Dadaism mocked the elitist view of what art was at the time. Those avante garde movements forced society to think harder about art and about society. And when they were forced to think, they ended up expanding what art and society could be.
That was probably the worst thing about the game, worse even then the second half of the game, story-wise as a whole.
And because it is mentioned in the OP, you have the Summer Harvest DLC from FEA and there's also some 'fanservice' in there but it's DLC (so not in the main game) and it's humorous in the whole context.
But this whole thing in BD was just outright tasteless. I love the game but that part I hated.
That's precisely it, though: it's the movements themselves that shaped society, not the art those movements produced. The art simply facilitated those movements, and was representative of the changes that were already underway within society.
We need to look at culture and counter-culture as a whole, not at specific half-naked characters. When one singles out a specific character and says, "this character is unacceptable," I feel his/her focus is in the wrong place. It's much better to ask, "this character represents X; why does X exist, and what can we do to get rid of it? And SHOULD we get rid of it?"
-Tom
Okay, I understand.
1. A movement needs some art, music, and story-telling to cause a snowball effect.
2. During an emergency you should never yell "someone call 911!" Because no one will do it. You have to single someone out and tell them it is that person who will call 911. If you give everyone the responsibility no one will do it. You literally have to single people out. @__@
That's just how people work. "Well I'm sure someone else will do it." is human nature.
I dunno, man. If someone yelled "SOMEBODY CALL 911!!" in my vicinity... I'd probably whip out my phone and call 911 right away.
I mean, if someone is yelling that, you know somethin' big is going down.
-Tom
cosmicblizzard
Banned
And that's why you guys at Xseed are awesome. The worst thing a work of fiction can be isn't unbelievable or in-universally contradictory, it's boring.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
I dunno, I enjoy seeing ornately-adorned anime dudes. I've even cosplayed a few of them because I found their costumes (or in the case of the Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne protagonist, their body paint) to be really awesome-looking.
Different strokes for different folks.
-Tom
I'm just saying, people will feel uncomfortable based on the feelings they get from what they see and how they process it. I grew up reading super hero comics, then reading manga and watching anime, and was a hairstylist for a decade. I enjoy interesting hair, fashion, looks etc on a lot of different levels. Life imitating art to become counter culture is a very cool thing to me, much of the time, and throwing it all under fetishism is trying to turn the age old exploration of a new generation's individuality into something shameful.
Hours Left
Member
I definitely agree that there is a lot of room for improvement in how female characters are portrayed in video games, but as I've said before, I don't think the solution is to avoid sexualization altogether.
I think the real solution is to provide a more varied type of representation for all types of characters, male, female and otherwise. I totally understand the sentiment of people that are against fanservice of female characters, because that seems to dominate how they are marketed to a very large degree, yet I do think there's room for these types of games. But female characters that are more nuanced are definitely needed to provide a more balanced representation. The same goes with any under or misrepresented group in media.
Alternatively, I don't think change is needed in just how females are portrayed, but male characters as well. I think it would also be good to have more fanservice of the male characters. There are plenty of gamers, such as myself, that just want to see a more even distribution of fanservice across the medium. If only women are treated as sexualized beings, then of course it feels uneven, but if both genders were to have their sexuality embraced more, then I think that would go a long way to making gaming far more inclusive. Humans are sexual beings after all, and I don't think clamping down on it will make any positive difference in the long term.
I think the real solution is to provide a more varied type of representation for all types of characters, male, female and otherwise. I totally understand the sentiment of people that are against fanservice of female characters, because that seems to dominate how they are marketed to a very large degree, yet I do think there's room for these types of games. But female characters that are more nuanced are definitely needed to provide a more balanced representation. The same goes with any under or misrepresented group in media.
Alternatively, I don't think change is needed in just how females are portrayed, but male characters as well. I think it would also be good to have more fanservice of the male characters. There are plenty of gamers, such as myself, that just want to see a more even distribution of fanservice across the medium. If only women are treated as sexualized beings, then of course it feels uneven, but if both genders were to have their sexuality embraced more, then I think that would go a long way to making gaming far more inclusive. Humans are sexual beings after all, and I don't think clamping down on it will make any positive difference in the long term.
But...
Not many people see objectification of women as an emergency. Hence the singling out thing. You need to make sure everyone feels the responsibility as oppose to a huge group.
When voting time rolls in, people do their best to make it seem as though it falls on you and not everyone else to make a vote. You know?
I find the outrage over Palutena's 2 focal camera views to be funny, because... it's really not sexual at all. It's the same stuff they do for basically EVERYONE in henshin / new challenge segments. It's Japanese animation and tokusatsu tradition that is identifiable in works of ANY age group. It focuses on 2 charm points (in this case being A necklace and a jeweled belt) that are intricate / detailed, and then shows a further out show that encompasses everything into one solid design.
Sure, you could argue it's to concentrate on beasts and the slit of her dress, but even those are unique details to her that show that she's more mature than the average Nintendo female. They also didn't overdo any of it; We didn't see the curve of her butt, or overly-bouncy breast. I think it's the playful, more mature nature of Palutena that makes her a refreshing character beyond the Disney Princess Storybook style nature of Rosalina or Peach.
This same exact segment could happen with a man, showing off the sword on his hip, and the royal crest on his chest; would that be taken as sexual then? It still would be in the vicinity of body parts that are attractive to those of the opposite sex.
I'm a person who doesn't like overblown sexual fanservice in works, and I ESPECIALLY don't like how much of a primary goal it is for many designs and characters now-a-days. It IS really cheap and more insulting to their own works than I think many of them realize.
But there's little issue with having some fun with the charming characteristics of a character. It IS a part of them, and to constantly circle around the issue, and pretend it's not noticeable, is actually kind of insulting. "This guy has muscular arms... OOO! Focus on his generic haircut!". "She's an attractive woman! LETS LOOK AT HER FORHEAD INSTEAD!"
The key is rarely to abolish something 100%. It's to place proper amounts of it into appropriate time and place, and handle it with maturity and fineness. In a world where EVERYTHING is being pressed to the next extreme, it's nice to see a company like Nintendo seek the reasonable middle ground. A person or group has more impact when they become an active participant in an issue, rather than when they sit on the sidelines, and pretend it never existed.
Sure, you could argue it's to concentrate on beasts and the slit of her dress, but even those are unique details to her that show that she's more mature than the average Nintendo female. They also didn't overdo any of it; We didn't see the curve of her butt, or overly-bouncy breast. I think it's the playful, more mature nature of Palutena that makes her a refreshing character beyond the Disney Princess Storybook style nature of Rosalina or Peach.
This same exact segment could happen with a man, showing off the sword on his hip, and the royal crest on his chest; would that be taken as sexual then? It still would be in the vicinity of body parts that are attractive to those of the opposite sex.
I'm a person who doesn't like overblown sexual fanservice in works, and I ESPECIALLY don't like how much of a primary goal it is for many designs and characters now-a-days. It IS really cheap and more insulting to their own works than I think many of them realize.
But there's little issue with having some fun with the charming characteristics of a character. It IS a part of them, and to constantly circle around the issue, and pretend it's not noticeable, is actually kind of insulting. "This guy has muscular arms... OOO! Focus on his generic haircut!". "She's an attractive woman! LETS LOOK AT HER FORHEAD INSTEAD!"
The key is rarely to abolish something 100%. It's to place proper amounts of it into appropriate time and place, and handle it with maturity and fineness. In a world where EVERYTHING is being pressed to the next extreme, it's nice to see a company like Nintendo seek the reasonable middle ground. A person or group has more impact when they become an active participant in an issue, rather than when they sit on the sidelines, and pretend it never existed.
The way I see it, if I'm playing a game, I generally don't think "man, it would be really nice if there were some more scantily clad, buxom babes incorporated here". But if a game already comes pre-made with scantily clad, buxom babes (like SCIV or Dragon's Crown), well, I don't really complain either.
I haven't really formed an opinion either way on any of this material, but I would like to ask you about this, simply as a point of interest:
My girlfriend works in a high school and occasionally tells me stories about some of the clothing choices of the women in her classes and I'm not sure what to think. We both agree that no one should tell them how they should dress in a global sense and that they are not to blame for any sort of treatment they get, negative or positive, for what they wear. But the fact is: they dress in a way that would be classically deemed "provocative" (scare quotes implied).
And that's just it, a lot of them do. Straight A women, women from rich backgrounds, women from poor backgrounds, personality doesn't even seem to play into it. If it's hot out (or even warm out), they are not wearing much in terms of clothing coverage.
It's a look (the American Apparel look, basically). There is no "personality" to dressing this way, they just do. It's fashionable. Traditionally, it would be deemed sexy. The bottom of butt cheeks are visible with the shorts they wear, side boob from the shirts, deep plunging neck lines, you name it.
I want to reiterate that I think it is totally fine that they wear whatever they want, without shaming.
But I would also argue that a realistic depiction of character traits that model into "provocative dress" is as wide and varied as there are personalities. Reality often dictates that people will dress "provocatively" just because.
I think that has the potential to do more harm than good, though. If you single people out and try to "preach" to them that sexism is bad before they're ready to hear it, you're simply going to exacerbate the problem. Misogynists aren't suddenly going to see women as more well-rounded beings simply because that viewpoint is being thrust upon them -- instead, they'll be resentful that it's being thrust upon them, and will most likely hold a bigger grudge and become even more misogynistic as a result ("Damned women are tryin' to tell me what to think now!").
The key is to introduce more games into the market with more well-rounded female characters, normalizing that as opposed to the sexualization of women. And that doesn't mean making fewer games with objectified women, but rather making more games with NON-objectified women, and supporting/promoting those that already exist.
It is possible to "have your cake and eat it too," and I think that's really the only way things can possibly get better -- if you try to take the cake away from people, they're just going to hate you for taking their cake.
Ultimately, I believe games that objectify women can easily coexist with games that objectify men, games that objectify both women AND men, and games that objectify neither gender and are simply well-characterized experiences throughout. The key question to ask is, what's going to end up selling to the public?
If people make legitimately good games with well-rounded characters, I'm pretty confident that they WILL sell on their own merits, even to misogynistic (and misandristic) individuals. Hell, there are plenty that already do. But that's the answer here -- not to restrict developers from creating sexist games, but simply to counterbalance those developers by creating an equal or greater number of non-sexist games (or equal opportunity fanservice games) that are good enough to sell and normalize the equal depiction of men and women.
When that happens (and I'm confident it will, in time), we will see fewer games with objectified female characters by simple virtue of the fact that they'll no longer be hot sellers.
-Tom
It wasn't really Palutena....it was the reaction to Palutena that set off a few posters.
Comments about what they'd do to so and so. *shudders*
It'd be fine if that didn't seem to be the reaction to all female actresses, singers, models, writers, politicians, students, children that show up in the presence of a dude.
It'd be fine if that wasn't always the case...
Spiffy_1st
Member
My sister is one of 'those' girls that posts on tumblr about feminism, but when I asked her about 'fan service' in games she said that there's fan service in everything, including real life, so there's nothing wrong with it. Both men and women use their sex appeal as a strength.
Bayonetta was designed by a women , if anyone didn't know. The games are produced by a women too, in the E3 treehouse the director mentioned that nintendo suggested removing her undershirt for the Link costume, which I think is cool of them to do.
Bayonetta was designed by a women , if anyone didn't know. The games are produced by a women too, in the E3 treehouse the director mentioned that nintendo suggested removing her undershirt for the Link costume, which I think is cool of them to do.
sechsterangriff
Member
I like to have all sort of experiences when playing games so I'm all for more complex and varied characters like in The Last of Us.
And that's why I actually like this sort of debates. Simply because, this is an industry, a demand driven business, and it's up to developers and publishers to read their fan base or potential fan base. And sometimes, whether it's because they're swimming in profits or blinded by good reviews or some other reason (see Assassin's Creed ) they just assume that everything their doing is right and that's the way to go.
So debate is definitely good, because it raises awareness to developers about what fans really want.
The difficult thing to understand for some people it seems, is that different people want different things. The thing is, I'm also all for Senran Kagura, and certainly there are lot of people who love their VNs, otome games, a bunch who love their hentai, etc, etc. And * gasp * there's nothing wrong with that!
I mean, If we're really going to treat games just as any other creative medium, we better start accepting all sorts of types of games. You don't have to like them or play them. There's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion about what kind of games you want (actually you should if you care enough), but try to consider that some games just may not be for you.
Like I said, voice about what kind of games you want, create a demand. Above all, convince developers that there are people who want their games in other ways. Censorship or games designed by committee are never a good alternative.
Personally, it's about context. I have nothing against fanservice, let's say in games like Neptunia or Demon gaze. But if a game like The Last of Us had it, it just would ruin the whole experience for me. Completely different games come with a completely different set of expectations.
Also on a personal note, for me sexualization is not in any way the same as sexism, and it's not inherently a bad thing. For me is just emphasizing sexual attributes. There's nothing wrong with sexualized people, whether in real life or fantasy. It's how you stand as person toward it that matters. It's your attitude towards it that can be sexist.
I wish I could express myself half as well as you do.
And that's why I actually like this sort of debates. Simply because, this is an industry, a demand driven business, and it's up to developers and publishers to read their fan base or potential fan base. And sometimes, whether it's because they're swimming in profits or blinded by good reviews or some other reason (see Assassin's Creed ) they just assume that everything their doing is right and that's the way to go.
So debate is definitely good, because it raises awareness to developers about what fans really want.
The difficult thing to understand for some people it seems, is that different people want different things. The thing is, I'm also all for Senran Kagura, and certainly there are lot of people who love their VNs, otome games, a bunch who love their hentai, etc, etc. And * gasp * there's nothing wrong with that!
I mean, If we're really going to treat games just as any other creative medium, we better start accepting all sorts of types of games. You don't have to like them or play them. There's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion about what kind of games you want (actually you should if you care enough), but try to consider that some games just may not be for you.
Like I said, voice about what kind of games you want, create a demand. Above all, convince developers that there are people who want their games in other ways. Censorship or games designed by committee are never a good alternative.
Personally, it's about context. I have nothing against fanservice, let's say in games like Neptunia or Demon gaze. But if a game like The Last of Us had it, it just would ruin the whole experience for me. Completely different games come with a completely different set of expectations.
Also on a personal note, for me sexualization is not in any way the same as sexism, and it's not inherently a bad thing. For me is just emphasizing sexual attributes. There's nothing wrong with sexualized people, whether in real life or fantasy. It's how you stand as person toward it that matters. It's your attitude towards it that can be sexist.
wyrdwad said:
I wish I could express myself half as well as you do.
I don't think it's just because. Everyone dresses a certain way for a reason. It's probably tied to how they feel the need to compete for social acceptance. You have to wear certain clothes to get the coolest friends and guys. It makes them feel better about themselves. Which is good. It's no different from when a male peacock gets prettied up to find a girl in the wilderness.
But I don't think it's the right place for learning. In fact I think it's the exact opposite. :/
It didn't include ToonamiGAF's trademark UnclePhilFace, so it couldn't have been THAT bad! *ahem* No, really, I saw the beginning of that, and... I think that's just how frequented-by-all-ages forums end up being. Net anonymity leads to people saying things that really shouldn't be shared.
There are times where I greedily wish GAF was all adults of a certain type, or that only people who "-GET- what is being shared, would comment on it. But this is a public area... and lips have gotten VERY lose in these modern ages of Facebook and Twitter. A SMALL amount of "common" sense would go a long way to preventing many issues, from the peanut gallery, and from the artist who create works.
It's a deep issue, but I'll leave thoughts on that until a more relevant point. This modern world has made sexual situations and concepts such a loosely-commentated topic. It's something one just has to deal with in public. As annoying as it may be.
eyeball_kid
Member
That's an interesting example to use. If it was Naomi who was naked and trying to cover herself with her hands, it would not be seen as a "joke" -- Konami would've been raked over the coals for sexist objectification and demeaning treatment of women. Fanservice taken too far. But because it's a guy, it's perceived by you (and probably most people) as a joke that was done "sensibly". IMO this is because society as a whole sees male sexuality as something not taken seriously. Even discouraged.
In general I agree with you though. There is fanservice in every medium, and if it's equal opportunity for both genders, then what's the harm? But there are lines that seem to get crossed more often in games than in movies or other mediums. Perhaps because the characters are fictional, developers don't see the harm as easily.
JonathanEx
Member
Fuck it. I'll bite on this Palutena thing. Sure I'll regret this later. And yeah, I'm focussing on those two seconds in the trailer rather than the whole character - but that's as when I watched it, that stood out. So not to question the character's use in general or other games (which people are positive about)...
The whole "Oh it's her showing she's badass" or just being awesome etc doesn't really stack up in my mind. Yeah, a bit of showing off, why wouldn't she? Well excluding that she's a character and thus does whatever is written by someone, it's not so much that the character would give a little ass-shake but that people thought that the two shots should literally be tits and then arse. People came up with that, storyboarded it, animated it. Make a character show off themselves, fine, if you think that's what they'd do. But the actual choice to put the "camera" (animation not camera blah blah) there for those two shots felt like the unnecessary part. And if it's no just showing off jewellery or whatever well then there's a level of naivety of how it comes across.
Others'll disagree and it's not perfectly argued but it's why the moment stood out to me.
The whole "Oh it's her showing she's badass" or just being awesome etc doesn't really stack up in my mind. Yeah, a bit of showing off, why wouldn't she? Well excluding that she's a character and thus does whatever is written by someone, it's not so much that the character would give a little ass-shake but that people thought that the two shots should literally be tits and then arse. People came up with that, storyboarded it, animated it. Make a character show off themselves, fine, if you think that's what they'd do. But the actual choice to put the "camera" (animation not camera blah blah) there for those two shots felt like the unnecessary part. And if it's no just showing off jewellery or whatever well then there's a level of naivety of how it comes across.
Others'll disagree and it's not perfectly argued but it's why the moment stood out to me.
You seem to be conflating a lot of people together here, the implication that if you like any fanservice you are no better than/akin to a creepy virtual stalker seems to be tarring with a very wide brush. Also, while I think its generally silly, the waifu stuff generally seems to be just that - sillyness in good fun, Im not sure I really see the negative impact of someone saying they like a particular female character via a popular meme. Also, its seems a little reductionist to simply label fanservice as bad, it tends to come in a variety of forms, from intertextual references to gratuitous titilation (which isnt solely, though admittedly predominantly, aimed at men) and more or less everywhere in between. I suppose if your post was a little more focused the context might make it more clear exactly what you mean by "fanservice", as your title doesnt seem to tie into the rest of your post. Which reads more as a semi-connected list of things that annoy you rather than a sound jumping off point for a discussion about the woes of bad or poorly done fan service.
RealDeadOne
Member
Creating things that offend nobody and appeal to everyone leads to watered down products.
Hey man I just want to say that I agree with every single one of the posts you've been making in this thread, as they've generally been my exact same thoughts. Considering how quick these threads on GAF move I'm much too incredibly slow at transcribing my thoughts on paper to participate, so it's great to have someone else lay them down in a clear and concise manner.
I've always kinda been confused about this bit of info that gets tossed around, but doesn't the designer follow a mandate provided by the director (which in this case, was a male) to begin with?? Or was it her that came up with the entire concept of the character/game???
Saying everyone dresses a certain way for a reason is both true and false based on the perspective. I think most of the women dress that way because they look at the outfit and think "This is so cute!" and think they look great when they wear it. I don't think most wear the outfit as a defining characteristic of their personality (aside from an extension of their tastes).
Writing a character with a personality driven approach to the way they dress I think is somewhat misguided. Bayonetta, to use the example given, is all about her singular trait; she is power-woman, defiantly sexy, controlling, coy, etc. It's all driven to one purpose. You may see "the softer side" of Bayonetta, but it's just to add color between the outline of her definition.
Real people who dress "scandalously" (again, scare quotes emphasized) in real life in modernity, are just fashionable to a given trend out of multiple available trends. The more conditioned we are to not look at women as sexual objects, the less likely any statement is made by dressing that way. Youth are less likely to push an agenda (or at least see all sides of it).
"Wanting to look good" is not much more of a character trait than "wanting to have clean teeth". "Looking good", these days, often falls into fashion lines that are pretty revealing. Often times it's not even about looking good. Linen skirts all the rage 5 years ago were basically transparent in direct sunlight, yet were generally considered "pretty" and/or comfortable. Yoga pants and, these days, just basic tights are worn often for pure comfort, yet are not far off of a thin layer of paint. Women aren't making statements with these clothes or even trying to peacock. They are picking up milk from the mall. It's just fashion. There is no character.
There's nothing wrong with fan service games like senran kagura, just like there is nothing wrong with porn. However fan service in games becomes a problem ewhen it affects the quality. For example if your trying to establish your character be a strong female character, but make her a sex doll like lightning, your doing it wrong. Another example would be heels and bikini armor on so many "warrior" female characters.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
A legitimately questionable design choice of the Witcher series.
This discussion, while I agree with some of the points made, is a completely silly one to be having. Yes, I agree women are overly sexualized etc, and there should be a moderation in fanservice and such, but there's something that's been selling longer than video games and even media as a whole.
And it's sex.
And it's sex.
And we can't try and change it because? Just because something is an effective marketing technique doesn't mean it's right. Just because something is the status quo, it doesn't mean that it can't be challenged.
As much as even me would like it to be changed, I feel like at this point it all just has such prominence in everything that unless there's (somehow) a complete and total overhaul to media as a whole, people pointing it out and wanting to change it isn't going to do anything.
Yes because clearly having a smaller market curated by moral guardians has worked so well and produced quality works in other mediums...oh wait. Theres nothing wrong with nice games (If theres a market it will be met), the issue is with the prevalence of "exploitative fanservice" not its existence. If the status quo/the majority of games had good gender balance and representation then it wouldnt be an issue.
- Status