milkyjay20
Member
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Let's talk about JRPGs that have good writing quality
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LordPhoque said:
Have you even read the thread in question? Just curious.
Because let me tell you, despite the name of the thread, there isn't a lot of in-depth story discussion going on. There was, then most people figured out how stupid it all was, and it's all been downhill since then.
And, yes, I preferred Saren a lot more. A ridiculous sum more. It's generally not a good sign when I bust out laughing at the sight of the final boss, and people seem hellbent on comparing it with a boss in
Contra 3
Which it totally is, btw.
To get kind of back on topic, ME2 reminds me of Tales of Vesperia: Good characters with a horrible plot. Which is still bad writing in both cases.
Ganondorfo
Junior Member
dejan said:
Thats actually not fair to say that, because you should judge a jrpg storyline on its origin language (japanese) and not on the translated one.
magicalsoundshower
Member
I'm not sure if I'd agree about Mother 3. I mean, I admit that the plot may start out pretty strong but once I got to the Seven Needles thing and the game started placing emphasis on the origins of Nowhere Island, the plot really lost me and all of a sudden seemed somewhat close to standard JRPG fare which I found pretty disappointing. Still, Itoi deserves props for how the first half of the game plays out, I suppose.
Fimbulvetr
Member
No dialogue change can make up for shitty/non-existant story telling.HK-47 said:
Though bad dialogue can certainly hinder a good story.
the nightman cometh
Member
I play JRPG's because of their stories, the dialogue is usually hit and miss but I just find it fascinating how different the stories are from western stories. Like in Infinite Undiscovery how your quest is to destroy literal chains that are wrapped around the moon stopping its power from being used by the people. I mean its totally insane (to me) but the insanity of the stories is what keeps me coming back for more.
Fimbulvetr
Member
jett said:
Not even the industry knows the difference.
Cornbread78
Member
LOL, classic GAF thread..... I believe he specifically mentioned JRPGs,(Let's talk about JRPGs that have good writing quality ) but now we have a WRPG debate.... hmmm.. Should someone create a WRPG discussion thread, so the ME2 comparisons can leave?
Anyhow, I already mentioned Suikoden V, but if you put together the whole Xenosaga series, it's an excellant story and writing, just treat lightly on 2, 3 fixed everything nicely.
Anyhow, I already mentioned Suikoden V, but if you put together the whole Xenosaga series, it's an excellant story and writing, just treat lightly on 2, 3 fixed everything nicely.
Vagrant Story was awesome (just replaying it now on the PSP and man it's better than I remember, of course I haven't gotten to the silly weapons system yet)
FFXII had Balthier which was a wonderfully written character, too bad he didn't have a story to go with.
Persona 4 was great for what it was trying to be, a campy little romp. If you wanted something deathly serious I could see where you'd be disappointed.
Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door Really doesn't get enough love.
Dragon Quest VIII It felt like playing fairy tale.
FFXII had Balthier which was a wonderfully written character, too bad he didn't have a story to go with.
Persona 4 was great for what it was trying to be, a campy little romp. If you wanted something deathly serious I could see where you'd be disappointed.
Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door Really doesn't get enough love.
Dragon Quest VIII It felt like playing fairy tale.
In all seriousness:
As an English speaker it's hard to say if any JRPGs have been well written, since localizations have such a tremendous effect on how this will be perceived. For example, when I played the Yakuza OPM demo, which had English subtitles and Japanese voice acting, I thought it captured the style of yakuza cinema perfectly and was very excited to play the full game. And then I buy it and the English voice acting (the only option) is so terrible that it all comes off as a bad joke.
FFXII has a brilliant localization, and so the bare-chested 17 year-old androgyne barely even bothers me, there's no wincing at every other line of dialogue. Very few voiced Japanese games from any genre have managed to pull that off.
But just judging the finished localized products, it's tough to have entry #1 for this thread, because my perception of good writing in an absolute sense doesn't allow for being scaled down to impossibly low standards so that the best written JRPGs can qualify. Whether it's the localizations or the tropes of the genre or a combination of factors, there really aren't any JRPGs I would say are particularly well written (again, from my experiences with the English versions).
Have I still been immersed in many of these adventures over the years? Yeah, certainly. Writing is only one aspect of game design.
As an English speaker it's hard to say if any JRPGs have been well written, since localizations have such a tremendous effect on how this will be perceived. For example, when I played the Yakuza OPM demo, which had English subtitles and Japanese voice acting, I thought it captured the style of yakuza cinema perfectly and was very excited to play the full game. And then I buy it and the English voice acting (the only option) is so terrible that it all comes off as a bad joke.
FFXII has a brilliant localization, and so the bare-chested 17 year-old androgyne barely even bothers me, there's no wincing at every other line of dialogue. Very few voiced Japanese games from any genre have managed to pull that off.
But just judging the finished localized products, it's tough to have entry #1 for this thread, because my perception of good writing in an absolute sense doesn't allow for being scaled down to impossibly low standards so that the best written JRPGs can qualify. Whether it's the localizations or the tropes of the genre or a combination of factors, there really aren't any JRPGs I would say are particularly well written (again, from my experiences with the English versions).
Have I still been immersed in many of these adventures over the years? Yeah, certainly. Writing is only one aspect of game design.
I always enjoyed FF Tactics for it's feel and story. Nice, grounded medieval intrigue. It felt like a return to Final Fantasy being more traditional fantasy.
It's been a while, but I remember getting pretty absorbed into Xenogears
My all time favorite though, has to be Final Fantasy IV. All the characters had their own histories that I found unique and interesting. I don't think I can distinctly remember an entire cast of characters from an RPG like I can with this game. There were some great moments in the game that stand out to me really strong.
It's been a while, but I remember getting pretty absorbed into Xenogears
My all time favorite though, has to be Final Fantasy IV. All the characters had their own histories that I found unique and interesting. I don't think I can distinctly remember an entire cast of characters from an RPG like I can with this game. There were some great moments in the game that stand out to me really strong.
Tellah sacrificing himself, Palom and Porom turning themselves into stone to keep the walls from crushing everyone else, rydia descending into the land of the monsters, and coming out much older.
EviLore said:
Very true, but consider two games: The Witcher and Final Fantasy 12.
The former has pretty good writing and but the localization(both translation and V.A.) is pretty bad.
The latter had a fantastic localization(both translation and V.A.), but the plot/dialogue/characters would have been leagues better had Nomura written them (and he is only an Artists).
My point is that while localization does make it difficult, It is very possible to cut though the gloss/scum to see what is underneath.
Fimbulvetr
Member
2San said:
For someone to be entertained by a story?
Well no, video games in general still have lack luster plots/dialogue/characters, but it's still nice to look and see how those things have evolved(if at all) with the industry.
In recent memory I see great steps forward in the dialogue, and even sometimes character, writing, but the plots themselves are still range from "I guess it's passable" to "what the fuck am I watching".
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Odin Sphere had a solid script from what I remember.
But define "good writing". If you mean the best of the best well I can't think of much. As Evilore said it's mostly due to their translations in which why it's so rare for quality writing in any Japanese game is to come by.
I'm sure the Japanese versions are well written but rarely are the English. In short try and imagine if Planescape: Torment had a Japanese localization and think of how that would have ended up.
The problem lies in trying to write a quality script while trying to stay true to the story. It may sound easy but it's a bitch when "lost in translation" happens.
But define "good writing". If you mean the best of the best well I can't think of much. As Evilore said it's mostly due to their translations in which why it's so rare for quality writing in any Japanese game is to come by.
I'm sure the Japanese versions are well written but rarely are the English. In short try and imagine if Planescape: Torment had a Japanese localization and think of how that would have ended up.
Cep said:
The problem lies in trying to write a quality script while trying to stay true to the story. It may sound easy but it's a bitch when "lost in translation" happens.
Man God said:
This. It's probably one of the only jRPGs ever with good writing. This list is extremely short.
I think Vagrant Story was pretty decent, and FFXII at least had a great translation + voice work, but in terms of the story being well written, the scenes blending well, etc, only Mother 3 really gets it right from start to finish. Some of the SMT games have moments that feel right, and deal with stuff that tends to be more adult than most jRPGs, but even they are only well written in sparse moments, not all the time and certainly not throughout the entire story arcs.
Again, I don't say that because I'm a Mother fan. I am, but the reason I am is precisely because Mother series understands things like restraint, nuance and subtlety.
Almost all jRPGs don't. They repeatedly beat you over the head with a scenes intended meaning, have huge sweeping themes that nearly always ring false.
I used this in the other thread, but to use Lost Odyssey from the OP. Here's a game where the two kids have their mother die, and for the next five hours we have to deal with scene after scene after scene of these annoying brats droning on and on and on and on. Any intelligent person knows these kids are sad, and all you need is short, brief moments to illustrate it. Instead we have to collect shit for a funeral, hear crying, do a dungeon, hear more crying, get to a city, yet still more crying and crying and crying and moaning. It never ends.
The reason for this is that the writers of Lost Odyssey, and almost every jRPG like Final Fantasy and Wild Arms and whatever, assume you're retarded. Straight up down syndrome or something. The writers actually consciously assume that you must have the IQ of something like a mustard seed, and as a result they must drill the same basic themes into your head over and over until they believe you "get it."
Mother 3 isn't like that. In Mother 3, your mom dies. It's obviously a huge event in the main characters lives, considering Flint is her husband, and the two little ones are her kids. Yet, scenes about the death last less than a minute or two. After that, you're meant to internalize what occurred and see the resulting impact on the characters.
So, instead of endless scenes where you hear Claus and Lucas crying, the writers know you're smart enough to understand the power of silence. In a moment infinitely more affecting than any other jRPG ever written, SPOILERS AHEAD for Chap 3+:
Lucas wakes up years after his mothers death, his hear mussed up from sleep. As you walk up to the mirror, we're treated to a scene which lasts only seconds. It has no dialogue. We simply see his Mother brushing his hair as a child, just as she would always do when he woke up. But she can't any more.
That's all that is needed to illustrate what these characters are feeling. It's told through brilliant sprite animation and no dialogue, and it's done in seconds.
Until jRPGs understand that I don't give a flying fuck about your themes of FREEDOM AND SOARING SPIRITS as written by a two year old, then they'll always be terribly written. It's not just a cultural thing. They're just that poorly written.
ZephyrFate
Banned
It does when you primarily play RPGs to be immersed in a good story.2San said:
Fimbulvetr: At least we've had Planescape: Torment and Dreamfall: The Longest Journey to show that SOME game developers DO care about making a good story, one that is movie-like in its brilliance. Those two alone would make some fantastic films.
To an extent, all of the Suikoden games (minus Tierkreis and Tactics) have very well-grounded stories that seem like real conflicts as opposed to jRPG cheese.
III and IV have some elements of 'OMG we have to save the world', which is a pretty common accusation of jRPGs. III is for the most part, written well enough that it turns out enjoyable. IV isn't so lucky.
When it comes to the other three (I, II, and V), V is a great story, but awkwardly paced, which detracts from it a bit. If you stick with it, V becomes great, but I can see people quitting after a few hours before the story really starts going.
Between I and II, I think II is a longer and more interesting story and would recommend it to anyone. Suikoden I is great too, and I can see why some would prefer it slightly to II. Both have some awkward lines that are the result of poor translation, but its not enough to detract from the story. II deals with a variety of themes in an adult way, and shouldn't be overlooked.
III and IV have some elements of 'OMG we have to save the world', which is a pretty common accusation of jRPGs. III is for the most part, written well enough that it turns out enjoyable. IV isn't so lucky.
When it comes to the other three (I, II, and V), V is a great story, but awkwardly paced, which detracts from it a bit. If you stick with it, V becomes great, but I can see people quitting after a few hours before the story really starts going.
Between I and II, I think II is a longer and more interesting story and would recommend it to anyone. Suikoden I is great too, and I can see why some would prefer it slightly to II. Both have some awkward lines that are the result of poor translation, but its not enough to detract from the story. II deals with a variety of themes in an adult way, and shouldn't be overlooked.
Fimbulvetr
Member
ZephyrFate said:
I might like Planescape: Torment more as a novel than as a movie.
And yes I was excluding stuff like M3, VS, P:T, etc. when I said "games in general", though those are very rare exceptions.
Crash Station
Member
Vandal Hearts had pretty good writing. Eternal Sonata also had some good stuff but it mostly fell back on genre tropes as more characters were introduced.
Fimbulvetr
Member
HK-47 said:
Oh I know about that one. Ugh.
I think it's possible one of the problems games have is that they don't know how to naturally flow relevant plot scenes into gameplay events, and so it's very hard to have a character driven story where you're killing a billion monsters or you're shooting half the goddamned city.
Since the gameplay should always be longer than the story, story tends to be uneven, pacing off, and writing awkward and often unnatural.
Although jRPGs are the worst offenders, it's certainly true that almost ALL games have bad stories.
It's very hard to implement a story that works and is affecting into many genres today, let alone when there's a huge lack of writing talent in the industry. It's something that needs to be worked on.
Since the gameplay should always be longer than the story, story tends to be uneven, pacing off, and writing awkward and often unnatural.
Although jRPGs are the worst offenders, it's certainly true that almost ALL games have bad stories.
It's very hard to implement a story that works and is affecting into many genres today, let alone when there's a huge lack of writing talent in the industry. It's something that needs to be worked on.
Yeah, I like Uncharted, but not because of the story. I mean, outside of a few of their one liners here and there, it's fairly substandard B/C movie fare. The only thing that sets it apart is its literally insane production values, having some of the best graphics ever on a game.
So the appeal of forwarding the story for me was merely to see the next action set piece, which was always sure to impress.
So the appeal of forwarding the story for me was merely to see the next action set piece, which was always sure to impress.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Amir0x said:
This probably has to do with differences in writing between the east and the west.
I've noticed that when plot holes or just plain stupid writing pops up in western games the course of action is to either pretend it doesn't exist or quietly retcon it away in a sequel.
With Japanese games the course of action is to somehow find a way to explain it away no matter how absurd the explanation is or whether the explanation actually brings up more problems than the writer had initially started with.
LordPhoque
Banned
So are you guys hating pretty much every story in the JRPG (or WRPG) you play ? I mean do you think that stories in games like Grandia, FFVII, Skies of arcadia, Valkyria Chronicles, etc, are terrible ? Personnally I just cannot play RPG with terrible plot/writing/dialogues (ie. Morrowind/Oblivion, Star Ocean series, etc)
H_Prestige
Banned
FFXII is the only game I've played that has good writing and superb voice acting. In English to boot. Everything else is trash.
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