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[Patryn]

What other JRPGs involve rape and a teenager trying to figure out if he's gay or not?

The problem is that they never pull the trigger.

It feels disingenuous that the game is like "NOPE. DESPITE ALL THE EVIDENCE HE IS TOTALLY STRAIGHT. NOTHING TO SEE HERE, MOVE ALONG."

 

[Dresden]

:lol

I still have not forgiven Bioware for putting such a good cast and one of their best dungeons (The Fade) in such a meh game.

Really, Allister deserved better.

They really do need to get away from the usual 'save the world' plot. At least start off the game as a personal quest to save yourself, like Baldur's Gate 2. Every game they've done since KOTOR has involved a world in peril, two or three love interests, an obligatory kiss/sex scene near the end and a final climatic confrontation with a sympathetic antagonist.

 

[Crash Station]

The problem is that they never pull the trigger.

It feels disingenuous that the game is like "NOPE. DESPITE ALL THE EVIDENCE HE IS TOTALLY STRAIGHT. NOTHING TO SEE HERE, MOVE ALONG."

It's not the conclusion that matters though. A lot of straight young men go through the same thing Kanji did. Just because it turns out he wasn't gay doesn't mean the game didn't tackle the issue of sexual identity.

Besides, I think he's bi.

 

[Dan Yo]

How many games aren't about saving the world, really? Or at least the little corner of the world that you inhabit in the game? Isn't that going to come up constantly in a medium where the protagonist is positioned as hero almost 100% of the time?

My favorite are those folks who complain about how little JRPGs have changed over the years (which is, honestly, a valid complaint, and this from someone who loves them) before blowing their load over something like Dragon Age: Origins. Come on now, really?

I think you're misunderstanding that complaint. The complaint is that Japanese RPGs haven't evolved. While the WRPG is the apparent evolution of the RPG genre, JRPGs have largely stuck to the roots (aside from a few exceptions like Demon's Souls).

 

[Fimbulvetr]

That's not the case. It's more like, he THINKS he's gay because he likes effeminate things, but he's actually straight. It's more like a commentary on sexual orientation and gender roles more than anything else.

Actually it's canon that he's sexually ambiguous and the player should decide his sexuality.

Still kind of a cop-out though.

 

[Patryn]

They really do need to get away from the usual 'save the world' plot. At least start off the game as a personal quest to save yourself, like Baldur's Gate 2. Every game they've done since KOTOR has involved a world in peril, two or three love interests, an obligatory kiss/sex scene near the end and a final climatic confrontation with a sympathetic antagonist.

Oh, good point. BG2 is also not about saving the world. For that matter, neither is BG1.

 

[Cep]

:lol :lol :lol :lol

Going back and reading some of the older posts in the thread, It is hilarious the people taking potshots or making any comments about either east or west when their experiences with the genres do not extend beyond FF7 or Fallout 3.

 

[Dresden]

I think you're misunderstanding that complaint. The complaint is that Japanese RPGs haven't evolved. While the WRPG is the apparent evolution of the RPG genre, JRPGs have largely stuck to the roots (aside from a few exceptions like Demon's Souls).

WRPG hasn't evolved since the old Black Isle days, bro. Bioware hasn't innovated since Baldur's Gate 2, and the pinnacle of RPG storytelling these days is Mass Effect. Which, while I love the game, is laughable considering the scope and style of the narratives that came before it.

 

[Patryn]

I think you're misunderstanding that complaint. The complaint is that Japanese RPGs haven't evolved. While the WRPG is the apparent evolution of the RPG genre, JRPGs have largely stuck to the roots (aside from a few exceptions like Demon's Souls).

Play Dragon's Quest, and then play any of the Tales series or any Tri-Ace game.

Just because there are throwbacks, doesn't mean the genre hasn't evolved.

It's just like WRPGs have both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

:lol :lol :lol :lol

Going back and reading some of the older posts in the thread, It is hilarious the people taking potshots or making any comments about either east or west when their experiences with the genres do not extend beyond FF7 or Fallout 3.

But both games start with "F" and have a number behind them, so it's okay for me to make baseless assumptions right?

 

[Amir0x]

I still fail to see how this is in any way different from Suikoden 2 or Dragon Quest V.

Your argument is well documented and rock solid, I am not sure however one could refute it.

If you fail to see why it's "different", it is because you've put yourself in a position where you can't. That's the only barrier to your understanding, and I'm certainly not going to hold your hand to the appropriate conclusions. The answers are all there.

 

[Crash Station]

I think you're misunderstanding that complaint. The complaint is that Japanese RPGs haven't evolved. While the WRPG is the apparent evolution of the RPG genre, JRPGs have largely stuck to the roots (aside from a few exceptions like Demon's Souls).

You're on a very slippery slope that was discussed to death when the Bioware guy said the same thing. Saying JRPGs haven't evolved is ignorant.

 

[NewLib]

Oh, good point. BG2 is also not about saving the world. For that matter, neither is BG1.

Eh BG1 sort of finishes with a save the world plot.

 

[Amir0x]

jRPGs stories haven't evolved. That is the fact here. Their gameplay has certainly taken many interesting twists. Only a select few franchises have stayed relatively stagnant.

 

[Scribble]

I think the Kenji thing is definitely a cop out. Especially as 'high-school love' is somewhat of a deal in Persona. It would have been a lot more interesting if they went the whole way.

 

[Patryn]

jRPGs stories haven't evolved. That is the fact here. Their gameplay has certainly taken many interesting twists. Only a select few franchises have stayed relatively stagnant.

I'd argue that there has to be an element of evolution from Dragon Quest 1 to either the Suikoden series or Mother 3. It may not be a large amount of evolution, but it's something.

Surely you can't argue that they're the same thing?

 

[HK-47]

They really do need to get away from the usual 'save the world' plot. At least start off the game as a personal quest to save yourself, like Baldur's Gate 2. Every game they've done since KOTOR has involved a world in peril, two or three love interests, an obligatory kiss/sex scene near the end and a final climatic confrontation with a sympathetic antagonist.

While you are probably talking about

Spoiler

Lohgain rather than the Archdemon

I didnt really find him or Malak or Saren (especially if you read the backstory explained in the book) very sympathetic. I think in some cases they wanted them to be sympathetic, but they needed to establish a clear antagonistic force and in doing so they always go overboard, especially since the player is almost always right and rarely gets called out on doing anything shitty. And when he does get called out, its by the Citadel Council or the Jedi and their reasonings make the player look like the victim of an idiotic organization rather then making decent points about his actions.

 

[Dresden]

Dude, that's amazing. :lol I love how the blond elf sounds like Puss in Boots from the Shrek movies.

Hell yes. :lol Despite the fact that no other Dalish elf sounds like him, Zevran was still quite badass. The comment he makes when you reach Haven is hilarious as well.

 

[Rebochan]

Are there any sane people who just like the genre ROLE PLAYING GAME and likes all types - jrpg, wrpg, hack and slash, Diablo clone, action rpg, rogue like - whatever the fuck and doesn't care about the labels?

I would like the labels to go away myself - they're just as meaningless and leading as "casual" and "hardcore" and only came about to frame a debate that's utterly meaningless. I just get really annoyed with the current narrative that WRPGs are perfect, flawless creations and JRPGs are miserable piles of fail with no redeeming qualities.

It's really hard to talk balance when the entire narrative is framed by extremes, both of which are demonstratively false.

 

[Cep]

WRPG hasn't evolved since the old Black Isle days, bro. Bioware hasn't innovated since Baldur's Gate 2, and the pinnacle of RPG storytelling these days is Mass Effect. Which, while I love the game, is laughable considering the scope and style of the narratives that came before it.

Homie, you could make the argument that they have regressed.

While you are probably talking about

Spoiler

Lohgain rather than the Archdemon

I didnt really find him or Malak or Saren (especially if you read the backstory explained in the book) very sympathetic. I think in some cases they wanted them to be sympathetic, but they needed to establish a clear antagonistic force and in doing so they always go overboard, especially since the player is almost always right and rarely gets called out on doing anything shitty. And when he does get called out, its by the Citadel Council or the Jedi and their reasonings make the player look like the victim of an idiotic organization rather then making decent points about his actions.

You know the funny part? They EPICALLY failed with this.

The council is one of the most level-headed governing bodies I have seen. They actually explain stuff to you and allow leeway in their directives.

All they ask for is proof.

 

[Danne-Danger]

Dude, that's amazing. :lol I love how the blond elf sounds like Puss in Boots from the Shrek movies.

He's also a big fan of leather boots, so yeah.

 

[Patryn]

Homie, you could make the argument that they have regressed.

The fact that ME2's story is getting praised makes me weep inside.

 

[Amir0x]

I'd argue that there has to be an element of evolution from Dragon Quest 1 to either the Suikoden series or Mother 3. Surely you can't argue that they're the same thing?

Mother 3 is the exception, so it has very little place in defining the broad swath of jRPGs.

However, certainly jRPG stories have evolved from, say, NES generation to SNES generation. From there, though, the archetypes and sweeping themes seemingly locked into place, writing never growing beyond fanfic, characters never growing beyond puerile do-gooders.

 

[HK-47]

Hell yes. :lol Despite the fact that no other Dalish elf sounds like him, Zevran was still quite badass. The comment he makes when you reach Haven is hilarious as well.

Thats because he isnt Dalish...he is Antivan.

 

[NewLib]

I think there is an argument that the WRPG is dying or better explained, becoming less unique.

Is Mass Effect 2 an RPG? Is Bioshock 2? What about Borderlands?

It seems that almost every major WRPG (outside of Dragon Age) have been hybrid RPG where the RPG elements are becoming less and less important.

 

[HK-47]

Homie, you could make the argument that they have regressed.

I believe the Council of Snobbish Old School WRPG Players has concluded that this is indeed the case.

 

[Rebochan]

I apologize in advance for this post.

I WANT to play a hero. I want to play the baddest dude out there.

Do you WANT to save the president?!

 

[Amir0x]

I would certainly agree that WRPGs haven't grown much in the writing and archetypes, but the problem is they are already starting from a place that is better written than jRPGs. That's just the simple fact of the matter. They are often generic, but they are more than not BETTER written than any jRPG equivalent. That's just the way it is at the moment.

Mass Effect 2's story is incredibly derivative and has many issues, but the characters are some of the best written in the genre. There has been hardly any decent jRPG characters written for the last fucking decade. That's how bad it is.

And it's also a statement for how bad the industry is as a whole at writing stories that I have to take small victories in a well written character, versus an entire story actually being cohesive and consistent.

 

[Patryn]

Mother 3 is the exception, so it has very little place in defining the broad swath of jRPGs.

However, certainly jRPG stories have evolved from, say, NES generation to SNES generation. From there, though, the archetypes and sweeping themes seemingly locked into place, writing never growing beyond fanfic, characters never growing beyond puerile do-gooders.

If you remove Mother 3 as an outlier, doesn't that also mean you have to remove things like Planescape: Torment? If that's the case, then WRPGs are stuck in just as much of a rut.

Sure, the writing may be better, but they don't have the hurdle of translation to overcome. They also have the advantage of coming from computer roots, allowing them to include a lot more flavor text.

 

[HK-47]

I think there is an argument that the WRPG is dying or better explained, becoming less unique.

Is Mass Effect 2 an RPG? Is Bioshock 2? What about Borderlands?

It seems that almost every major WRPG (outside of Dragon Age) have been hybrid RPG where the RPG elements are becoming less and less important.

Bioshock 1 and 2 are shooters, ME2 and Borderlands are still (hybrid) role playing games (ME2 of the TPS RPG variety while Borderlands is a loot whore shooter RPG)

 

[NewLib]

Bioshock 1 and 2 are shooters, ME2 and Borderlands are still (hybrid) role playing games (ME2 of the TPS RPG variety while Borderlands is a loot whore shooter RPG)

Yeah but the line between them is becoming less and less clear. Would it surprise anyone if Mass Effect 3 is just a TPS with a Conversation wheel?

 

[HK-47]

If you remove Mother 3 as an outlier, doesn't that also mean you have to remove things like Planescape: Torment? If that's the case, then WRPGs are stuck in just as much of a rut.

Sure, the writing may be better, but they don't have the hurdle of translation to overcome. They also have the advantage of coming from computer roots, allowing them to include a lot more flavor text.

Not to mention many aspects of JRPGs stories are cultural elements.

 

[Patryn]

Yeah but the line between them is becoming less and less clear. Would it surprise anyone if Mass Effect 3 is just a TPS with a Conversation wheel?

No, but I'd be very sad. Very, very sad.

 

[Amir0x]

If you remove Mother 3 as an outlier, doesn't that also mean you have to remove things like Planescape: Torment? If that's the case, then WRPGs are stuck in just as much of a rut.

Sure, the writing may be better, but they don't have the hurdle of translation to overcome. They also have the advantage of coming from computer roots, allowing them to include a lot more flavor text.

Read my post right above yours. Certainly, WRPGs have its own similar evolutionary "rut." But, they start from a far superior foundation, and typically the focus is on a much higher level of writing. They usually handle their "generic western tropes" fairly well on the top tier WRPGs, where the top tier jRPGs uniformly are terrible in all ways from a storytelling point-of-view.

I try to imagine the cultural barriers getting in my way of these things, but I don't think there is one - I love films from asian cinema, love various asian books and even certain select anime. It is the quality of the writing coming out of the Japanese game industry that is at fault. It is fucking atrocious.

Himuro's saying that my comments are hyperbole, but I do not think so. I seriously believe there has been virtually zero compelling jRPGs characters in nearly a decade. The writing is simply that bad. Nearly always, the situations these characters are put in make no sense in comparison to the growth these characters should be having. It's just that awful.

 

[HK-47]

Yeah but the line between them is becoming less and less clear. Would it surprise anyone if Mass Effect 3 is just a TPS with a Conversation wheel?

No I wouldnt.

 

[Patryn]

Read my post right above yours. Certainly, WRPGs have its own similar evolutionary "rut." But, they start from a far superior foundation, and typically the focus is on a much higher level of writing. They usually handle their "generic western tropes" fairly well on the top tier WRPGs, where the top tier jRPGs uniformly are terrible in all ways from a storytelling point-of-view.

WRPGs have a major problem that JRPGs don't, IMO: Setting. It seems like very few WRPGs are willing to step outside their comfort zone of either pseudo-Tolkein or post-apocalyptic worlds. It's why I jump any time something fresh and new like a shiny futuristic RPG like Mass Effect comes along.

I mean, look at something like Arcanum, which had a fairly fresh setting that hasn't really been copied or exploited since.

Meanwhile, JRPGs are doing crazy things with a myriad of different worlds. Sure, the characters may be stale or cliche, but I give them points for at least putting them in semi-interesting settings.

 

[Jive Turkey]

So this is another thread where a vast majority of GAF proves they can't differentiate between story/plot and writing?

 

[The Technomancer]

+2

Dude, I would - in terms of story anyway. Bro. Too much focus on dialogue trees these days. The late 90s/early 00s was the peak of the WRPG genre for me, with a few brilliant games here and there released since and a lot of good, but stagnant or even lesser, titles. Actually, that pretty succinctly describes PC gaming in general for me.

One area where ME is better. Say what you will about the story quality, or hell, even the dialogue quality, but the fast-paced, natural way that they handle dialogue trees is far and away better than clicking an option, reading a wall of text, clicking another option, reading a wall of text...

So this is another thread where a vast majority of GAF proves they can't differentiate between story/plot and writing?

Either one can compensate for a mediocre counterpart, but if one of them flat out sucks, there's not much to be done. I've had weak plots buoyed up by engaging characters, and slogged through mindless writing because the ideas behind it were engaging.

 

[Cep]

I believe the Council of Snobbish Old School WRPG Players has concluded that this is indeed the case.

:lol

They are not completely wrong, but they mistake the cause.

How many true WRPG devs are out there? Like 3, maybe 4?

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I seriously believe there has been virtually zero compelling jRPGs characters in nearly a decade.

By virtually do you mean literally? Because then you'd have to ignore the greatest final fantasy villain ever:

And his foolhardy skypirate of a son.

 

[Cep]

By virtually do you mean literally? Because then you'd have to ignore the greatest final fantasy villain ever:

And his foolhardy skypirate of a son.

I like Cid as well, but 'compelling' is pushing it.

 

[HK-47]

:lol

They are not completely wrong, but they mistake the cause.

How many true WRPG devs are out there? Like 3, maybe 4?

Quite a few but a lot of them are Eastern European devs. So their games rarely get much press and a lot of their games are rough around the edges. Also many are victims of bad translation/no thought put into writing.

 

[RedRedSuit]

Persona 3 is full of compelling JRPG characters.

 

[readleeb]

The genus should be Homo :lol

 

[ColdSoup]

You shouldn't be mocking people either, retard.

Advice about not mocking others coming from a person who resorts to personal insults. I love it. :lol :lol

Let me ask you a question, do you think Berserk or Monster is better in terms of writing? I'm extremely curious to hear your answer.

 

[Cep]

Quite a few but a lot of them are Eastern European devs. So their games rarely get much press and a lot of their games are rough around the edges. Also many are victims of bad translation/no thought put into writing.

Instead of 'true,' I should have said mainstream.

The last game they(Hm, this sounds vaguely racist...) released that had any story depth(and did not fall apart if you sneezed) was "The Witcher."

Risen deserves mention too, but I am not much into exploring solo.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I like Cid as well, but 'compelling' is pushing it.

You don't admire Matsuno villains? Unlike most "shades of gray" antagonists, these guys have the actual advantage of being right and their actions aren't nearly as dark gray(and I'm talking about villains in all genres here).

 

[thetrin]

I seriously believe there has been virtually zero compelling jRPGs characters in nearly a decade. The writing is simply that bad. Nearly always, the situations these characters are put in make no sense in comparison to the growth these characters should be having. It's just that awful.

Really? Persona 3 and 4? Nothing?

 

[Scribble]

Meanwhile, JRPGs are doing crazy things with a myriad of different worlds. Sure, the characters may be stale or cliche, but I give them points for at least putting them in semi-interesting settings.

I think they're just as bad as each other. JRPGs settings appeal to me more because they tend to be brighter, but many seem to share that cartoony fantasy sci-fi mishmash. There are exceptions, of course...Shadow Hearts, a few of the SMT games IIRC

That's why I roll my eyes whenever someone says RPGs are amazing because they 'get to explore different, foreign worlds!!!!!!' I don't get that feeling whatsoever.

 

[The Technomancer]

Instead of 'true,' I should have said mainstream.

The last game they released that had any story depth(and did not fall apart if you sneezed) was "The Witcher."

Risen deserve mention too, but I am not much into exploring solo.

Yeah, there aren't many mainstream WRPG devs out there that spring to mind; off the top of my head, Bioware is all I can think of right now.
Or hell, for that matter, Spiderweb Software is really the only dev on the indie scene. There just don't seem to be a lot of them in general.