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[Fimbulvetr]

The genus should be Homo :lol

:lol

I find that all or nearly all of the SMT games I've played are that way. There's no arguing with Amirox on this issue, though. He's so fanatical about it that it sort of makes me not want to ever play Mother 3.

Play it, you owe it to yourself.

 

[HK-47]

Persona 3 is full of compelling JRPG characters.

I found 4 to have more developed characters. P3 is just more uneven. The highs of 3 are better than pretty much all of 4 (the final encounter, the Sun, Aeon, Hanged Man, Tower Social Links, Junpei's character development) but it was awkwardly paced, had some really poorly written SLs, and didnt tie things together as well.

 

[Cep]

You don't admire Matsuno villains? Unlike most "shades of gray" antagonists, these guys have the actual advantage of being right and their actions aren't nearly as dark gray(and I'm talking about villains in all genres here).

I do very much admire Matsuno's villains.

Cid was tainted.

 

[HK-47]

You don't admire Matsuno villains? Unlike most "shades of gray" antagonists, these guys have the actual advantage of being right and their actions aren't nearly as dark gray(and I'm talking about villains in all genres here).

Delita is the king.

 

[bernardobri]

What other JRPGs involve rape and a teenager trying to figure out if he's gay or not?

As much as I tried to remember, I will give you that rape hasn't being featured on JRPGs (to my knowledge). Although sexual ambiguity has been on some games (both jrpgs and non-jrpgs), whenever they are clear or not is another extended point.

 

[The Technomancer]

Bethesda, Obsidian.

Yup, that brings us up to three.

 

[Red Scarlet]

Haven't you made this topic about 8 times now, Chairman Yang?

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Delita is the king.

Oh yeah, can't believe I forgot that.

Awesome foil to the protagonist as well.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

You know the funny part? They EPICALLY failed with this.

The council is one of the most level-headed governing bodies I have seen. They actually explain stuff to you and allow leeway in their directives.

All they ask for is proof.

Yeah, I've found it odd that most players react negatively to the council, especially in ME1. Maybe it's just my politics inasmuch as the Council are clearly examples of multilateral international cooperation a la a United Nations or EU, which I support, but the Council always seemed even-handed and reasonable. It SHOULD take a hell of a lot more to convince our governing leaders that

Spoiler

a race of sentient machine gods are coming to destroy the galaxy

than a single recording from the big bad.

It's especially laughable when people take Anderson's word for anything. Dude just starts ranting about how Saren hates all humans and wants to see all humans die, without any reasonable explanation, and people believe him at face value. Then you learn about his backstory with Saren and people STILL think he's not a biased observer. Frankly, I still can't believe he was right, and I think the council was perfectly reasonable in doubting what had happened.

As for the main argument, the main problem seems to be that jRPGs are more popular, and thus see more titles in the genre published than wRPGs. If you stack up the Mother 3's and TWEWYs vs. the Mass Effect 2s and Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayers, there's probably an equal amount. But there are only a few Two Worlds or Divine Divinity mediocre wRPGs, while there are a TON of Star Ocean 4 mediocre jRPGs. If you stick to the cream of the crop, it's not so bad.

It's also probably not too great that the genre hasn't had many notable releases lately. This gen's been particularly bad for jRPGs, while wRPGs are in their prime. The last really great one was TWEWY back in 2008, and before that, we had FFXII in 2006. Not a great resume compared to what wRPGs have managed in that time.

 

[HK-47]

Bethesda, Obsidian.

CD Projekt Red, and Piranha Bytes are two other big ones.

 

[Cep]

Oh yeah, can't believe I forgot that.

Awesome foil to the protagonist as well.

Tactics had a protagonist?

I was too busy admiring Delita to notice.

Now the story finally makes SENSE!

 

[Yasae]

Read my post right above yours. Certainly, WRPGs have its own similar evolutionary "rut." But, they start from a far superior foundation, and typically the focus is on a much higher level of writing. They usually handle their "generic western tropes" fairly well on the top tier WRPGs, where the top tier jRPGs uniformly are terrible in all ways from a storytelling point-of-view.

I try to imagine the cultural barriers getting in my way of these things, but I don't think there is one - I love films from asian cinema, love various asian books and even certain select anime. It is the quality of the writing coming out of the Japanese game industry that is at fault. It is fucking atrocious.

Himuro's saying that my comments are hyperbole, but I do not think so. I seriously believe there has been virtually zero compelling jRPGs characters in nearly a decade. The writing is simply that bad. Nearly always, the situations these characters are put in make no sense in comparison to the growth these characters should be having. It's just that awful.

They're hyperbole because they ultimately don't matter.

It's like saying Planescape has bad combat.

 

[ivysaur12]

Mother 3.

Honorable mention for Baten Kaitos Origins and Vagrant Story. Maybe one of the SMT games.

 

[Dresden]

Advice about not mocking others coming from a person who resorts to personal insults. I love it. :lol :lol

Let me ask you a question, do you think Berserk or Monster is better in terms of writing? I'm extremely curious to hear your answer.

hur hur bursurk has the best writing of all time, of all time!

Spoiler

That's what you wanted to hear, isn't it?

Condescension and idiocy in equal measure. What a fool. :lol

 

[Amir0x]

They're hyperbole because they ultimately don't matter.

It's like saying Planescape has bad combat.

The characters don't matter?

If you're saying the stories don't matter, that's a different argument entirely.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I do very much admire Matsuno's villains.

Cid was tainted.

Yeah but let's face it, enough of his influence must have stayed with the character.

It's the only explanation for Cid being pretty likable, compared to the characters of whoever took over in Matsuno's stead.

 

[Cep]

CD Projekt Red, and Piranha Bytes are two other big ones.

One (very good) game is not enough. I need to play Witcher before I allow them to stand with such elite (lol) company.

 

[Dresden]

That's true, but the Gothic games are fairly obscure and CD Projekt has only done The Witcher so far IIRC. Still, that's five studios, not so dire as has been implied in this thread.

And if you think about it, that's pretty much all of the WRPG studios left right now. :lol There just isn't a huge market for it anywhere. You have some low-grade stuff like Sacred 2, then you get straight into Bioware/Bethesda territory.

 

[Cep]

Jrpgs are still great and being extremely experimental lately. TWEWY you've already mentioned, but also Etrian Odyssey, Valkyria Chronicles, The Last Remnant and Demon's Souls.

When you stack it up: wrpg vs jrpg, there are probably just as many jrpgs in recent years that are probably as good or better than the heavily touted wrpgs like Fallout 3 or Mass Effect. It's just they don't seem to get nearly as much exposure or love, except in rare cases (like Demon's Souls).

Are you on crack?

Of course they do. Unless we are talking about the VG journalists(lol).

I tried the Witcher and turned it off within 10 minutes. The combat was that bad. Maybe I'll give it another shake some other time.

I did this too. If it was not for HK-47, I would not have pushed through the first 2 hours.

 

[Yasae]

The characters don't matter?

If you're saying the stories don't matter, that's a different argument entirely.

I'm talking about writing. It only has to be passable in certain games.

Balance.

 

[The Technomancer]

Jrpgs are still great and being extremely experimental lately. TWEWY you've already mentioned, but also Etrian Odyssey, Valkyria Chronicles, The Last Remnant and Demon's Souls.

When you stack it up: wrpg vs jrpg, there are probably just as many jrpgs in recent years that are probably as good or better than the heavily touted wrpgs like Fallout 3 or Mass Effect. It's just they don't seem to get nearly as much exposure or love, except in rare cases (like Demon's Souls).

I love the irony of Etrian Odyssey being classified under "innovative". I mean, yeah, there's a level of innovation to really really embracing old school design the way that they did, but there isn't really anything in that game we hadn't seen before, outside of the "draw your own map" thing.

(Didn't stop me from loving it though; sometimes old school is just how I want to roll)

 

[Yasae]

I tried the Witcher and turned it off within 10 minutes. The combat was that bad. Maybe I'll give it another shake some other time.

Almost exactly the same reaction I had.

See? Some people are predisposed to like particular works more than others. Maybe when GAF grows up a bit and gains some wisdom, it could see this.

 

[viewtifulsub]

I also thought Killer 7 was mostly pretentious bullshit cobbled together with some atrocious gameplay elements, but asides from that, fantastic list.

A rushed production meant a lot of the story elements were cut out, and Suda had to make the best of what he could scrap together.
As a final product, i still think it still holds up great. The messages and themes throughout all the chapters are clear. Unless you were expecting a linear a-to-b narrative, it really isn't that hard to figure out a basic explanation as to what happened and why (some stuff are probably best left as questions though).
For that same reason, you're basically writing off 90% of non-linear narratives in art cinema.

My personal favorite JRPG in terms of plot is probably Persona 2: Tsumi (Innocent Sin). Just to give an example of the strength of the writing, it contains the scenario of

Spoiler

having your party members turning out to be childhood friends, pretty much an identical plot point as the one in Final Fantasy VIII. Yet when it occurs in Tsumi, not only is it a satisfying and emotional moment, but how you were able to forget your past acquaintances is also explained in a much more satisfactory manner (none of that Guardian Force induced amnesia crap, thinking you ganged up and murdered your much beloved older sister figure certainly has them all traumatized enough to want to forget and overlook the obvious).

It's really a shame that only Eternal Punishment got localized, and poorly at that. It's sort of the weaker entry of the two in terms of plot, and capitalizes a lot on the mood, setting and relationships introduced in the first game. The ending for one of the main characters was also a bit odd.

Spoiler

Where the hell is "Other Side" Tatsuya going?!

Respect. Outside of Matsuno titles, Persona 2 Innocent Sin had an incredible script and some of the best character development in a video game.
Though i think the highlight of Innocent Sin is how and how also relevant it is in today's society, and also how incredibly researched the title was. Mayan mythology, social & popular cultures (Steven Seagal in my Persona?), world history, jungian psychology, HP Lovecraft, and various religions and beliefs.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

Jrpgs are still great and being extremely experimental lately. TWEWY you've already mentioned, but also Etrian Odyssey, Valkyria Chronicles, The Last Remnant and Demon's Souls.

When you stack it up: wrpg vs jrpg, there are probably just as many jrpgs in recent years that are probably as good or better than the heavily touted wrpgs like Fallout 3 or Mass Effect. It's just they don't seem to get nearly as much exposure or love, except in rare cases (like Demon's Souls).

I know people don't like list wars, but can you list some of the ones that you think have been cool? My knowledge isn't as up to snuff as it should be, but it does seem that you're right that jRPGs have had some notable releases that have just been more niche than they have been. I think the console and heavily hyped bias particularly makes jRPGs come out worse than they should.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm talking about writing. It only has to be passable in certain games.

Balance.

The thing is, RPGs are one of those genres where you sort of should have good writing. In JRPGs, often a great amount of time is spent talking to townsfolk and watching horrible cutscenes. And in Western RPGs, there's an inordinate amount of time spent talking to people and navigating dialogue trees.

If the writing fails in these games, a great big piece of the games have failed, and it is an impediment to my personal enjoyment.

The BEST of them will still be fun to play, and I'll look past it, but it's getting rarer and rarer for those gems to come out. It's gotta be something truly special.

SMT is one of my favorite jRPG franchises, with diverse games like Persona, Devil Summoner, Raidou, Nocturne and Digital Devil Saga. They usually have some pretty great gameplay. It's not the story I go into them for, however. I admire their (typically) adult undertones, and the way they weave their religious and philosophical symbology into characters and the world, but the execution tends to err on the typical anime contrivances with the same sorry, inexplicable character development as most jRPGs. I simply tend to ignore them and forget them, because the gameplay is something I like a lot.

 

[ColdSoup]

hur hur bursurk has the best writing of all time, of all time!

Spoiler

That's what you wanted to hear, isn't it?

Condescension and idiocy in equal measure. What a fool. :lol

:lol What I really wanted was to hear your reasoning. More insults? cool. But not as cool as giving advice while you attempt to insult me. :lol :lol

 

[Cep]

Well, then how can you explain the sentiment that jrpgs have received a quality decrease in recent years while wrpgs have supposedly suddenly gotten better? Games like Valkyria and Etrian are far from the mainstream limelight.

Yes, there has been less jrpg output on consoles, but there have been many experimental and completely flat out BALLSY games released in the past few years from Japanese developers that some people seem to ignore completely, whether they're journalists crying about jrgps supposed influence on western gaming losing its grasp (which was never the case, a few popular series like Pokemon or Final Fantasy do not an influence make) or the wrpg fans who fail to mention such games when discussing recent jrpgs?

I know wrpgs will be more appealing to most westerners because they're more close to home, and less foreign, but I still stand by my point.

Easy answer.

Console JRPG output has decreased, while console WRPG output has not changed.

In our sensationalist setting, this means that OMG JRPGs suxxorz.

Not to mention people do NOT want ballsy. They want familiar.

While those JRPGs went off to try new and exciting things, WRPGS stuck closer to home and melded together with shooters.

 

[dejan]

I love the irony of Etrian Odyssey being classified under "innovative". I mean, yeah, there's a level of innovation to really really embracing old school design the way that they did, but there isn't really anything in that game we hadn't seen before, outside of the "draw your own map" thing.

(Didn't stop me from loving it though; sometimes old school is just how I want to roll)

Yeah, I had to laugh at that one, too. I like Etrain Odyssey 1/2 and Dark Spire for what they are, but there's nothing in these games, that hasn't been done better in Wizardry 7 some 16 years ago. Hell, Wizardry 6 would probably still compare favorably.

 

[Scribble]

I think there have easily been JRPGs as 'good' as Dragon Age, Mass Effect etc.

But JRPGs have most certainly not been BALLSY, unless I'm missing something.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I like this thread, but I just realized that I've gotten totally off-topic from the discussion posed in the title.

I liked the second discussion.

 

[Chrysalis]

I tried the Witcher and turned it off within 10 minutes. The combat was that bad. Maybe I'll give it another shake some other time.

Since when is 10 minutes enough to judge any decent rpg? The opening hour of the Witcher, btw, is easily the weakest bit. I'm not a huge fan of the game, but it does deserve to stand with the other big WRPG's of the gen- especially since it doesn't beat every plot point into the head of the player.

 

[HK-47]

I liked the second discussion.

I like the discussion where I get to rant about Bioware characters and post SO4 cutscenes.

 

[Speevy]

Maybe 4 or 5 developers are responsible for most WRPGs released on consoles.


JRPGs have been so infrequent and frankly just bad this generation that I'm actually rooting for a resurgence, Demon's Souls excepted.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I like the discussion where I get to rant about Bioware characters and post SO4 cutscenes.

 

[HK-47]

Maybe 4 or 5 developers are responsible for most WRPGs released on consoles.


JRPGs have been so infrequent and frankly just bad this generation that I'm actually rooting for a resurgence, Demon's Souls excepted.

Handhelds

 

[Basileus777]

The Witcher is a good game that makes excellent use of its source material, but it doesn't really deserve to be put on a pedestal like it often is. The gameplay itself is unexceptional, and the choices it has you make aren't all that different from what is standard in the genre. Giving you a couple of heavy handed cutscenes a few chapters after you make a choice really isn't that revolutionary.

 

[Crash Station]

As much as I tried to remember, I will give you that rape hasn't being featured on JRPGs (to my knowledge). Although sexual ambiguity has been on some games (both jrpgs and non-jrpgs), whenever they are clear or not is another extended point.

There's a HUGE difference between a character being androgynous and a character trying to figure out what gender he/she is attracted to.

 

[Speevy]

Demon's Souls is the first RPG I've ever seen that rewards your competence rather than your persistence.

 

[The Technomancer]

Pretty much. Valkyria Chronicles is arguably the most innovative srpg since Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together.

Then again, I haven't played those games like Knights of Nightmare or whatever the hell they are.



Yes.

Nights in the Knightmare is definitely a SRPG. Its just that the S stands for SHMUP

 

[HK-47]

The Witcher is a good game that makes excellent use of its source material, but it doesn't really deserve to be put on a pedestal like it often is. The gameplay itself is unexceptional, and the choices it has you make aren't all that different from what is standard in the genre. Giving you a couple of heavy handed cutscenes a few chapters after you make a choice really isn't that revolutionary.

Actually having your choices staggered instead of immediately having the effects revealed and giving said choices a very ambiguous bend rather than clearly defined moral backing...is sort of a big deal.

 

[TheChaos]

- Planescape: Torment
- Deus Ex
- Grand Theft Auto III
- System Shock 2
- Grim Fandango
- Psychonauts
- Vampire: Bloodlines
- Still Life
- The Longest Journey
- Day of the Tentacle
- Silent Hill 1-3
- Suikoden 2/3
- Final Fantasy VI
- Final Fantasy Tactics
- SMT3
- Persona 3/4
- Tactics Ogre
- Vagrant Story
- Killer 7

*shocked* How could you forget Gabriel Knight?

My list is this, minus Still Life (really bad ending ruins it) and added the first two Gabriel Knight games.

 

[Yasae]

The thing is, RPGs are one of those genres where you sort of should have good writing. In JRPGs, often a great amount of time is spent talking to townsfolk and watching horrible cutscenes. And in Western RPGs, there's an inordinate amount of time spent talking to people and navigating dialogue trees.

If the writing fails in these games, a great big piece of the games have failed, and it is an impediment to my personal enjoyment.

The BEST of them will still be fun to play, and I'll look past it, but it's getting rarer and rarer for those gems to come out. It's gotta be something truly special.

SMT is one of my favorite jRPG franchises, with diverse games like Persona, Devil Summoner, Raidou, Nocturne and Digital Devil Saga. They usually have some pretty great gameplay. It's not the story I go into them for, however. I admire their (typically) adult undertones, and the way they weave their religious and philosophical symbology into characters and the world, but the execution tends to err on the typical anime contrivances with the same sorry, inexplicable character development as most jRPGs. I simply tend to ignore them and forget them, because the gameplay is something I like a lot.

Rules, rules, rules. There are no rules. There are only your preferences.

I can enjoy the writing when it's there - like with Planescape: Torment, KOTOR 2, some of the Working Designs retranslations, even Morrowind (if it wasn't such a book.) WRPGs tend to rely on dialogue and choices. They don't have a leg to stand on without good writing because you do ten times the amount talking compared to a JRPG, though both have plenty of lip-flapping.

I feel JRPGs have generally been much better at presentation. They show rather than tell, and that's been one of their unique strengths. But with BioWare's heavyweights, the gap is closing, and clumsy writing is only coming to the surface with JRPGs. The spotlight is growing much brighter.

 

[Cep]

I like the discussion where I get to rant about Bioware characters and post SO4 cutscenes.

ITT, we shit on everything.

Actually having your choices staggered instead of immediately having the effects revealed and giving said choices a very ambiguous bend rather than clearly defined moral backing...is sort of a big deal.

Too true, and the combat was actually not as bad as I previously feared.

 

[The Technomancer]

Rules, rules, rules. There are no rules. There are only your preferences.

I can enjoy the writing when it's there - like with Planescape: Torment, KOTOR 2, some of the Working Designs retranslations, even Morrowind (if it wasn't such a book.) WRPGs tend to rely on dialogue and choices. They don't have a leg to stand on without good writing because you do ten times the amount talking compared to a JRPG, though both have plenty of lip-flapping.

I feel JRPGs have generally been much better at presentation. They show rather than tell, and that's been one of their unique strengths. But with BioWare's heavyweights, the gap is closing, and clumsy writing is only coming to the surface with JRPGs. The spotlight is growing much brighter.

Writing isn't just text on the screen or spoken dialogue. A well choreographed, well put together cutscene is still "writing"

 

[Basileus777]

Actually having your choices staggered instead of immediately having the effects revealed and giving said choices a very ambiguous bend rather than clearly defined moral backing...is sort of a big deal.

The idea is fine, but I don't think the way it way implemented was anything extraordinary. The effects of the choices boil down to a cutscene and ending up on the side of a different faction for the last few chapters.

 

[MechaX]

Demon's Souls is the first RPG I've ever seen that rewards your competence rather than your persistence.

While Demon's Souls is definitely in that case, I personally thought that SMT Nocturne was among the first that I can remember that rewarded competence. I mean, you can grind and grind all you want, but unless you grind for an abnormal amount of time, you're never going to able to beat most of the bosses unless you play the game by its rules (exploiting weaknesses, using buffs and debuffs, constantly shuffling your demon party, etc).

 

[RurouniZel]

The stories in WRPGs and JRPGs are generally equal, and in both sets there are standouts.

As much as fans of both would like to deny it sometimes, WRPGs are riddled with just as many bad cliches as JRPGs and visa versa. They're just DIFFERENT bad cliches.

WRPG fans laugh at JRPG "emo" heros, demure healing chicks, animu faces and in some cases, awkward sexual tension.

JRPG fans laugh at WRPG tree-bonding elves, axe wielding scottish dwarfs, brown environments and in some cases, awkward sexual tension.

A quote from one of my favorite movies, Hero: "Son, life is bullshit. Just layers upon layers of bullshit. When you grow up, you pick the layer of bullshit you prefer, and that's your bullshit."

 

[HK-47]

ITT, we shit on everything.

 

[Crash Station]

Writing isn't just text on the screen or spoken dialogue. A well choreographed, well put together cutscene is still "writing"

So do Ico and SOTC have good writing?

 

[The Technomancer]

Okay, seriously Cep, you've gotten your avatar quoted like, four times in the last two days.