CelticVegas
Banned
I'm not talking about games only!
To me, for example, the names Thor and Loki are annoying because of Marvel. I really like norse mithology too, but there are more gods than those.
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Lets talk God of War 4
- Thread starter JoduanER2
- Start date
I'm not talking about games only!
To me, for example, the names Thor and Loki are annoying because of Marvel. I really like norse mithology too, but there are more gods than those.
GhostOfSparta305
Banned
I'd much sooner recommend a GoW game than any Platinum game to a novice or non-gamer. GoW does a much better job at empowering players while asking very little of them. Almost every move has a unique purpose, therefore making them easier to remember & execute. It's the type of game you could easily pick up again after not playing it for a month.
Games like Bayonetta are great, but only when you put in the extra effort to memorize everything they throw at you. Sure, having tons of combos is flashy, but when so many of them produce the same result, that's all it really is: flash, not depth. I often see players just stick to the 3 or 4 combos they can remember and go through the whole game with them. Memorizing any more would've been a chore, so many combos just go ignored.
inpHilltr8r
Member
God of Walking
Kratos examines the consequences of his actions by exploring the world he has shattered.
Spoiler alert! Everyone is already dead.
Kratos examines the consequences of his actions by exploring the world he has shattered.
Spoiler alert! Everyone is already dead.
FunkyDealer
Banned
Jaffe and Barlog planned for 3 to end with gods from other Mythologies attempt to take control after the fall of Olympus... Now that Barlog is directing again there's a solid chance it could happen.
Personally, I'd like to see Egyptian mythology or an oriental one. Primarily because of the architecture and landscapes.
Personally, I'd like to see Egyptian mythology or an oriental one. Primarily because of the architecture and landscapes.
TeddyShardik
Banned
You say Bayo is only good when you memorize tons of Combos and then immediately turn around to say they are just flash and you only need a few to get through the game. Isn't that accessible? You can make due with a limited moveset but mastering the system still offers you more if you invest the effort. God of War is just the first part. Really easy to pick up, not much to master. In fact once you get the ability to parry (with a ridiculously huge window to do so)you hardly need most of the combat system at all.
RPGCrazied
Member
No more Kratos.
Do something else. Egyptian lore would be really cool.
Do something else. Egyptian lore would be really cool.
Some sort of a cross-over between two or more mythologies would be super cool. I dig it! And Kratos should stay, he is too iconic to be replaced with someone else (no matter how good the new character might turn out to be).
CelticVegas
Banned
Ugh. No crossovers. Terrible idea.
Oh, yes, it's Bayonetta that has superflous combo's, unlike god of war which you totally need to learn more than square, square, triangle to beat the game, right?
BrainZEROX
Member
Well there's the obvious one. The void left by the Greek gods and the chaos that ensued broke the status quo between rival pantheons and they'll come to Greece in order to claim dominion. Their first act will be to track down the responsible for all this mess and the greatest threat to their plans: Kratos.
And here we go. Kratos vs Odin vs Kartikeya vs Innana vs Horus vs...
I'd much prefer God of War 4 focuses on a single mythology though. Most preferably an unusual one so... No Norse please.
GhostOfSparta305
Banned
Well no, because if the player realizes those 3 or 4 combos are all he needs to get through the game, what's his incentive to memorize another set of buttons? An extra 5, maybe 10% more damage? Maybe good enough for the hardcore crowd, but casuals will just stick with what they already know. Extra Credits has a great episode about this.
When you learn a new ability in GoW, there's a good chance no other move in the game is like it, so you can't afford to forget about or ignore it. And when you complete the game, you feel more satisfied because you could easily absorb nearly everything it taught you. I imagine if you learned every single combo in Bayonetta, but then saw some 8 year old on YouTube get through the whole game with only 3 or 4 combos, you'd at least feel a little cheated for your time, no?
mocolostrocolos
Member
Mesopotamic or Summerian gods pls.
I want a Baal vs Kratos.
I want a Baal vs Kratos.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
A lame way to compromise would be a reboot with Roman mythology starring Cratus :lol
MasterMongoose
Member
I hope we get something majorly different, either setting or character or time period. I'm fine with the "God of War" name continuing without the Greek Mythology.
I don't see why people need to justify not wanting Platinum to make it. I like the way God of War games play and don't want them to be like Bayo/MGR/Vanquish. Those games are mechanically dense and stylish and everything but I feel like there's room for different types of games in the genre, and GoW doesn't need that kind of precision in my opinion. It's a AAA system seller for mainstream audiences. Platinum games aren't.
God of War to me has always been about the adventure, spectacle, and a more laid back game.
I don't see why people need to justify not wanting Platinum to make it. I like the way God of War games play and don't want them to be like Bayo/MGR/Vanquish. Those games are mechanically dense and stylish and everything but I feel like there's room for different types of games in the genre, and GoW doesn't need that kind of precision in my opinion. It's a AAA system seller for mainstream audiences. Platinum games aren't.
God of War to me has always been about the adventure, spectacle, and a more laid back game.
They don't have to get rid of Kratos (I'd prefer he gets some optional bossfight, sort of like fighting Red in Pokemon). I don't think it's a good idea to kill him off permanently but he can't be the protagonist again
New pantheon is definitely a must. Norse would be the most obvious but they could do anything really (well, besides Greek/Roman)
New pantheon is definitely a must. Norse would be the most obvious but they could do anything really (well, besides Greek/Roman)
GhostOfSparta305
Banned
Eh, I guess you could. But when combos 2-3x as long & powerful are only a few more simple button presses away...I have to wonder why you would?
TeddyShardik
Banned
No I wouldn't feel cheated at all because the ultimate goal shifts from just beating the game. Beating the game is like a longer tutorial for some people in games like bayonetta. Doing big stylish Combos and looking cool WHILE beating the game becomes its own reward.
As for not forgetting new moves in gow because they're so important I just repeat myself: As soon as you get the parry you don't need much else because it's easy to do and deals more damage than the latest combo you bought.
You're just downplaying the combat variety of one game and grossly overselling that of the other in my eyes.
I admit calling the combat in gow shitty in my original post can be seen as hyperbole, all I really want to make clear is that SOMETHING in this series has to change for me to keep my interest in it. Be it gameplay changes or changes in the setting.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Bayonetta doesn't require memorization because there's a rhyme and reason to how combos work. The player can simply experiment with sequences of punches and kicks and something will happen. If they find a combo they particularly like, they can use it more often. You learn by doing repeatedly, you don't have to study anything and formally memorize it.
God of War arguably has several superfluous moves and combos because many of them are far too risky to use in most scenarios. Any move that locks you into an animation is rarely useful except on the weakest enemies, and the longest combos are generally hard to complete before being interrupted by an attack.
For what it's worth I like both games.
anothertech
Member
I got it. Ultra futuristic distopian GOW, the gods no longer in power due to human disbelief and rise in power. Kratos comes back after singularity happens to battle the giant robots and artificial intelligences ruling the heavens and Earth.
Kratos vs the giant mech human hybrids. I could totally eat that sh*t up.
Would still be more interested in a female protagonist though.
Kratos vs the giant mech human hybrids. I could totally eat that sh*t up.
Would still be more interested in a female protagonist though.
GhostOfSparta305
Banned
Well replayability's a different story entirely (pardon the pun). You might wanna pop your head in the recent thread about it, where many people say they very much prefer beating a game once & never touching it again (I'm not one of them).
As for parry, I'll just repeat the same thing I said to the user who tried to use the tired Sq Sq Triangle argument: you very well could, but when learning much more powerful attacks is so easy, why would you stick with that crutch? That's more the point I'm getting at: you can probably get through any game using only minimal abilities. The difference btwn Bayo & GoW, even though I like both, is that GoW is better at convincing you not to.
killatopak
Member
God of War 4 will be featured in the modern setting with presidents being the gods.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Best villains in the series confirmed.
http://m.ign.com/articles/2015/10/2...sold-playstation-president-on-virtual-reality
Makes me think VR is going to be a big part of the game. If it sold the shu I could see them really getting behind GOW being a must play in VR experience but not a HAVE TO
Makes me think VR is going to be a big part of the game. If it sold the shu I could see them really getting behind GOW being a must play in VR experience but not a HAVE TO
BadAss2961
Member
I'm with you on everything but this. As much as people complain about Kratos, he's actually one of the most unusual protagonists out there, and I like that. Kratos or not, I don't want some 2013 Lara version of the character. They could easily fall into the trap of a generic lead going that route.
It's been said before, but they could really make some noise with a female version of Kratos. Same appetite for brutality, rage, sexcapades and all. But whatever it is, I want to continue being a bad guy fighting other bad guys.
Turbowaffles
Member
How do you redeem Kratos? Just make him a more sympathetic character. You can still have bat shit crazy angry Kratos during battle, and have him murder his enemies in the most brutal ways possible, but do not have him go out of his way to murder innocents or be a dick in general, and have him show even the slightest bit of guilt for some of his past actions.
Kratos: I killed all those dickhead Gods and that's great, but what would my family, who I've done all this stuff in the name of, think of some of the other things I've done? *sad face*
And just expand on that in more scenes. They were sort of on the right path in Ascension.
Boom, Kratos redeemed.
Also I want Norse mythology. And I obviously want Kratos back.
Kratos: I killed all those dickhead Gods and that's great, but what would my family, who I've done all this stuff in the name of, think of some of the other things I've done? *sad face*
And just expand on that in more scenes. They were sort of on the right path in Ascension.
Boom, Kratos redeemed.
Also I want Norse mythology. And I obviously want Kratos back.
CelticVegas
Banned
"Nanomachines, son!"
BadAss2961
Member
You play as the radical right-wing's Antichrist depiction of Obama. The first game ends with Obama stomping out Washington and taking the POTUS throne.
Robdraggoo
Member
Kratos should become the villain. Ala legacy of kain series. It will be called
End the god of war
Use an ancient roman setting to tie in but advance time and get a new setting.
Although Egypt would be pretty awesome
End the god of war
Use an ancient roman setting to tie in but advance time and get a new setting.
Although Egypt would be pretty awesome
The Silver
Member
Yeah GoW 3 already tried that shit and it came off terribly. Kratos has his chance at redemption and instead he became worse than Ares and started the apocalypse. Stop trying to redeem him, he doesn't want it, need it, or deserve it; he released hope into the world as his last act, let Kratos go.
I don't really consider square, square, square, square, square, triangle to be a fundamentally different attack than square, square, triangle. They, and everything inbetween, are all listed under the same name Plume of Prometheus, and it is literally the most effective and versatile attack Kratos has, appropriate for pretty much any situation, dealing substantial damage and having strong cancelability. Following your argument, the only reason to use a different attack is because it'd be boring as hell doing the same thing for 8 hours. God of War combat can be reduced to 4 mechanics: move, block, roll, and PoP. Maybe jump, if there are some attacks that can only be dodged with jump, but I don't think there are. Anything else is superflous. But, as you adequately said, why in all the hells would you do that to yourself?
That applies to both Bayonetta and GoW, but you seem to be suggesting that there is literally no reason to use more than 3-4 combo's, which is reductionist to a ridiculous degree. You can do something unique with almost every weapon that you aren't able to do with the others, all of them are worth using in certain situations. Every ability Bayo gains is a gamechanger if you will it to be, from Panther within (which leads to bat within), to the assessorties, to the weapons, etc. You don't have to be anything approaching a master level player to understand the basic utility of Bayonetta's different weapons, attacks, and abilities, and it is pretty reductionist to assert otherwise, and no one would argue that memorizing the whole list of attacks is what gives Bayonetta depth. True, you could reduce Bayo to a few mechanics as well. Move, dodge, and attack. But that is an ineffective and unfun way to play, so....don't play like that.
I also think you are misconstruing depth as having a number of (meaningful) attack inputs. Not precisely. It's obviously good to have attacks do many different things, but depth comes chaining different attacks together to create a unique situation that can't be accomplished otherwise. For example, creating a bomb with durga is simple and straightforward. As is using the whip to bring an enemy to you. Any novice can do that and those would be effective in a number of situations. However, using both consecutively to lay a trap and then using the whip to force the enemy into it, THAT is what depth is, and it's not something that can be replicated without a competency in the mechanics. However, It's also not listed anywhere in the game as an option, it's just something that the player can discover on their own by playing around with the mechanics. Making something complex out of simple bricks. That is something you can't do to anywhere the same degree in GoW's much more rigid system and inflexible system and why Bayonetta is considered to have greater depth.
MakeMeFeelAlive
Member
I just want it. I know whatever they do it'll be fun, great looking and entertaining. That's what I want from most games, and God of War gives it to me.
OrbitalBeard
Member
Completely disagree with this. You can go through a game like Bayonetta learning almost nothing and still have a great time. Or you can take some time to learn how the game plays (which isn't even remotely difficult to do) and the game becomes even better.
I agree that GoW is probably better for certain players but that doesn't mean SSM can't enhance the combat for those who want more, while still keeping it accessible for those who don't.
I don't think they will though, so God of War 4 needs to move the series forward in other areas. And I'm not talking about simply having a new mythology setting.
Just call it Heavenly Sword 2 and we've got ourselves a deal.
GhostOfSparta305
Banned
Agree to disagree then. I find Bayonetta to be one of the least button-mashing friendly games in recent memory, which is something its fans take a lot of pride in! I also don't recall saying there's nothing SSM could do to enhance the combat: it has plenty of room to grow. But its base is pretty damn solid.
Also, to Veelk above, I'm not ignoring you. In some cases I agree with you. But my argument wasn't really about which game's combat system had the most/least style vs substance (they both have plenty of each). My point was more that GoW's ratio between the the two lends itself much better to new players than Bayo's.
And I'm speaking from my own experience here. Most of my non-gamer friends picked up GoW's controls & had a good feel for its mechanics within the first 30 minutes. But the ones who gave Bayonetta a chance felt overwhelmed even after the first hour, and kept falling back on the same old crutch combos. Did it frustrate me that the game didn't click for them as quickly as it did for me? You bet! But could I really fault the player for that? Nah.
Kratos stays. I'd like an addition of free roam, the ability to ride a horse and sail. I'd also love for Kratos to be able to build followers and an army.
All this needs to be added to the staple set pieces and boss fights.
Also i say go outside the box and table Egyptian mythology next. Could you imagine Kratos fighting a sphinx monument or a fucking pyramid monster?
Additionally i say build on the awesome melee abilities from GOW ascension. Though it's the weakest in the series, the combat was great.
All this needs to be added to the staple set pieces and boss fights.
Also i say go outside the box and table Egyptian mythology next. Could you imagine Kratos fighting a sphinx monument or a fucking pyramid monster?
Additionally i say build on the awesome melee abilities from GOW ascension. Though it's the weakest in the series, the combat was great.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
It can be anything as long as it isn't gross and disturbing like God of War Ascension was. That stuff with the parasites and the statues mutating, and some of those decapitations. Christ it's hard to even just think about that stuff.
Well, I agree that GoW is more accessible in general, but I disagree that it's because, or atleast solely because, of the combat system.
I think Bayonetta's general aesthetic doesn't lend itself to easy introduction of 'new' players. I showed the opening cutscene to friends, and they're reaction was more 'wtf am I playing'. It has to be considered that new players aren't going to be feeling the combat alone, but the game as a whole, and I've yet to meet someone who didn't go into Bayonetta not knowing anything about it with some degree of hesitation about it's insanity and campiness. In contrast, God of War introduces you to a world of loud epic fights of giant cool looking things being cinematically killed by a some kind of spartan. They even mentioned a disinterest in the game because they didn't like the soundtrack of Bayonetta. With Bayonetta, you have to 'get it' to appreciate it. With GoW, it's more generic in a sense (I don't mean that as an insult, especially since it can be argued that it's generic because it inspired a bunch of Me Too's!)
But as far as players who were interested in both, I found they fell on that exact crutch of PoP, which is sensible as it is by far the most effective move in the game. It should also be noted that the first hour is a horrible way of judging a game. You don't even get your third weapon after the first hour. You don't have panther within or sense of timing. Of course they're going to fall in familiar crutches, the game is still in it's infancy to them. A better metric would be looking at how they handle themselves after they beat the game, especially since returning to the beginning and comparing how they do then to how they did before is a far better indicator of their competency against constant new challenges as they go along.
But honestly, when it comes down to it...yeah, I kinda do blame the players, not the game. They're not obligated to look deeper into the system than they like, but a game's obligation is to make a gameplay learning accessible, which is different from making the learning curve effortless. GoW doesn't have a bad gameplay system, but it is undoubtedly less deep, and as a result has fewer things to learn before competence is achieved. Similar levels of accessibility with differing levels of system depth will result in gamers 'getting' the shallower game more easily, even if they're equally accessible. And I do believe that Bayonetta is accessible, having information on how to perform everything you need to. From there on, it's up to the player to learn the ropes. The gamer in turn has to commit the time and effort to learn these things, and if they choose not to do, that's perfectly fine and within their rights, but it is then not the games fault for blocking them out.
Or to put it another way, a door has to be open for a person to go through it. But if it's open and people still choose not to go through, that's not the door being an ineffective door. At that point, that's people simply not participating, and that's their choice.
GhostOfSparta305
Banned
@Veelk
Yeah, the sexualized J-Pop aesthetic probably turned many away, but you have to imagine Kamiya was aware of that risk when he designed it, especially after his success with old Dante (whom everyone thinks is cool). Maybe it was a conscious decision to only appeal to a specialized audience. It's a damn shame that so many wrote off something so good just for how it looked, but hey we're all guilty of it to some degree.
Also sure, in GoW, my noob friends used PoP more than anything else. But they also felt comfortable enough experimenting with other moves within a very short timeframe, something I unfortunately didn't see during their Bayo playthroughs. And while you might be onto something with that last point, I think most players, especially newer ones, decide well within the first hour of playtime whether or not they want to continue playing. If Platinum wanted to appeal to a bigger crowd (which I honestly doubt), they probably would have paced Bayo to meet this timeframe better.
Hmm idk, I think it's perfectly fair for a player to decide whether a game's learning curve, no matter how steep or shallow, is worth the effort for the amount of fun they expect. I was just pleasantly reminded of FF13, the game that apparently became the best, deepest game in the series after the first 20 hours *eyeroll*.
And though its extremely silly to argue over an analogy, I'll admit yours lost me a bit. In the case of GoW & Bayo, what if one door is easier to open than the other (has less locks, made of thin wood vs heavy metal)? If both doors lead to the same place, do you blame the people who take the easier door?
Yeah, the sexualized J-Pop aesthetic probably turned many away, but you have to imagine Kamiya was aware of that risk when he designed it, especially after his success with old Dante (whom everyone thinks is cool). Maybe it was a conscious decision to only appeal to a specialized audience. It's a damn shame that so many wrote off something so good just for how it looked, but hey we're all guilty of it to some degree.
Also sure, in GoW, my noob friends used PoP more than anything else. But they also felt comfortable enough experimenting with other moves within a very short timeframe, something I unfortunately didn't see during their Bayo playthroughs. And while you might be onto something with that last point, I think most players, especially newer ones, decide well within the first hour of playtime whether or not they want to continue playing. If Platinum wanted to appeal to a bigger crowd (which I honestly doubt), they probably would have paced Bayo to meet this timeframe better.
Hmm idk, I think it's perfectly fair for a player to decide whether a game's learning curve, no matter how steep or shallow, is worth the effort for the amount of fun they expect. I was just pleasantly reminded of FF13, the game that apparently became the best, deepest game in the series after the first 20 hours *eyeroll*.
And though its extremely silly to argue over an analogy, I'll admit yours lost me a bit. In the case of GoW & Bayo, what if one door is easier to open than the other (has less locks, made of thin wood vs heavy metal)? If both doors lead to the same place, do you blame the people who take the easier door?
I feel we're talking about this in two different frameworks. You seem to be looking at it from a marketting perspective, of trying to appeal to many as possible for the sake of appealing to as many as possible, for sales, etc. That's not what I see as accessibility.
If there is anything to be learned about Kamiya's persona from interviews and his twitter persona that I've seen is that he clearly doesn't give a shit about sales in relation to his games. He's interested in making a great game, regardless of what mainstream crowds think. Of course, he works with people who won't okay a project unless they believe it has the potential to sell, of course, and it would be inaccurate to say that he is indifferent to his fans, as he is openly receptive to their opinions (though not their trolling). However, he is utterly indifferent to the fact that, say, Wonderful 101 bombed as if it were atomic, or that other games he made didn't sell over a million, or that he won't get to work on Dante again. Kamiya is happy with how W101 turned out simply because he accomplished with it what he wanted to do. He's an artist through and through, and that means he's enjoys the work of creating a game itself. That means he's happy if he makes a great game, not a popular one. As such, he didn't see Bayonetta's aesthetics as a risk, he saw them as "Okay, I want to do this now and make it as great as possible." and if other players were intrigued or repelled by his vision, that was their business and made no difference to him. Of course, I don't know the guy, but I've never seen an interview or tweet that indicated anything otherwise.
Now, if he wanted to make Bayonetta more appealing in the sense you're describing, in terms of purely trying to get the largest crowd possible, he probably would have made different design decisions, I agree with that much, but as far as I can tell, that's never been the game he wanted to make. However, appeal is different from accessibility. To appeal to specifically set out to entice, compel them with promises desires fulfilled. Platinum games don't do quite that. They fulfill their own desires, and then share it with everyone. I feel it's the difference between a marketting campaign, and a party invitation. Marketing campaigns depend on you coming to be succcessful. Parties can be large or small, but they are fun regardless. You can go to one or not, but they'll enjoy themselves whatever you do. Marketting campaigns want you to have fun, parties have their own fun.
So while I do agree that gamers are fickle and GoW is more appealing to general audiences, I disagree with the notion that means it's accessible. Again, the fact that players aren't willing to work with the mechanics does not indicate that there are unreasonable barriers to working with those mechanics.