For me...
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Lightning - "Why the hate?"
- Thread starter TheFLYINGManga_Ka
- Start date
Well, it's not so much the towns but the "people" in them. One of XIII's biggest problems for me was the fact that the story never addresses the way people are reacting to all the chaos.
Joke ruined.
It was really interesting to read through the thread and get an insight to everyone's opinions.
It's been awhile since i completed FF13 so my memory may be idealized, but here are my thoughts on the subject matter at hand:
1.) I think LuuKyK was trying to illustrate the basis of Lightning as a "hopeless character", as he puts it, through the lost of her parents. She may not have lost them recently, but it explains her cynicism at the beginning of the plot.
4.) Her character development wasn't present until her arc with Hope, where they help each other understand themselves better and further refine their ultimate motives.
While I do agree this epiphany was rather sudden, she was able to come to the conclusion of favoring hope over vengeance between the chaos of watching her sister crystallize, being cursed with the mark of the L'cie, exiled from cocoon after the events of the Purge and still continued to be hunted while in unfamiliar territory. This was also before she met fang and gained the knowledge that the process of crystallization was reversible, mind you. I don't know, but that seems like character growth to me. This is especially prevelant while comparing her behavior from point 1.
3.) The fact that she thinks Snow is dumb and the rejection of his and Serah's relationship points toward her being overprotective, no? She thinks Snow isn't good enough for Serah is what I infer from the situation.
I do see where you are coming from though, as some of her actions are not justified. The fit she threw when Serah revealed her L'cie mark is contradictory to the point I'm trying to make. As an elder brother, I can relate to her wanting to protect a younger sibling, but I do not understand her rationalization in this scenario.
While reading through wiki to recall some details, I can see how some character motivations are nonsensical and melodramatic. Coupled with some of the responses within this thread, I start to question what exactly is it I like about Lightning. I may have to replay the game someday to find out.
But for now...
I think this explains it really well. The soundtrack was really the highlight of FF13.
It's been awhile since i completed FF13 so my memory may be idealized, but here are my thoughts on the subject matter at hand:
1.) I think LuuKyK was trying to illustrate the basis of Lightning as a "hopeless character", as he puts it, through the lost of her parents. She may not have lost them recently, but it explains her cynicism at the beginning of the plot.
4.) Her character development wasn't present until her arc with Hope, where they help each other understand themselves better and further refine their ultimate motives.
While I do agree this epiphany was rather sudden, she was able to come to the conclusion of favoring hope over vengeance between the chaos of watching her sister crystallize, being cursed with the mark of the L'cie, exiled from cocoon after the events of the Purge and still continued to be hunted while in unfamiliar territory. This was also before she met fang and gained the knowledge that the process of crystallization was reversible, mind you. I don't know, but that seems like character growth to me. This is especially prevelant while comparing her behavior from point 1.
3.) The fact that she thinks Snow is dumb and the rejection of his and Serah's relationship points toward her being overprotective, no? She thinks Snow isn't good enough for Serah is what I infer from the situation.
I do see where you are coming from though, as some of her actions are not justified. The fit she threw when Serah revealed her L'cie mark is contradictory to the point I'm trying to make. As an elder brother, I can relate to her wanting to protect a younger sibling, but I do not understand her rationalization in this scenario.
While reading through wiki to recall some details, I can see how some character motivations are nonsensical and melodramatic. Coupled with some of the responses within this thread, I start to question what exactly is it I like about Lightning. I may have to replay the game someday to find out.
But for now...
I think this explains it really well. The soundtrack was really the highlight of FF13.
Joke ruined.
AHHHH CRAP. It's getting harder to discern sarcastic posts from genuine ones....
But how is my point valid if I keep repeating myself and dont have full understanding of the series AND mentioned some wrong things in my post? Im clearly insane.
No but seriously, thank you so much for being reasonable and actually try and understand my point, I really was starting to think I was crazy.
Ohhh...
You guys are waiting yet again.
I get it but it seems weird to me considering we haven't had any new information for a few years now. Wouldn't be too weird and borderline Half-Life 3 fans level of crazy if it wasn't for someone mentioning Versus in every Square announcement.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
If the first thing you have to say about her is "she's hot" then no, she's not one of the better FF characters.
I for one don't mind FFXIV since I dislike MMORPGs in general. I'm fine with LR and KH 1.5 as appetizers. Can't wait to play those at the E3.
The thing is that Lightning isn't portrayed as a hopeless character at all. She just doesn't understand how to adapt to social norms and is an awkward character. If we're extending beyond the games then even in the novella she comes across as a socially inept person. She doesn't see the reason to interact with people and even when she does it's military personnel. At best these interactions are also super formal. It's only the loose nature of her CO that she acts the way she does in response. This doesn't portray hopelessness at all. She's far from it. She just happens to have a trouble at hand and doesn't know how to deal with Serah by socially normal means.
Except LuukyK's point was that she developed because of her presence with Snow which is completely false. She does have development throughout the entirety of the time with Hope, however, it's completely overshadowed by Hope's development and when she does have the epiphany when they're around Carbuncle it's short, unexplained, and comes off a bit nonchalant. There's no proper build up at all. They just give you flashbacks to what happened and BAM comes the conclusion to her character development. Then it's polished up to look nice and pretty when she's with Snow and Hope's place. It's just mishandled.
Also I don't think her development has anything to do with Hope. Rather her development primarily comes from accepting what her fate is. Simple as that. However, the execution is flawed. She wants to believe that there is more to being cursed but it comes at the cost of a 180 of her personality. I don't think that's a development at all because there's no proper build up. Rather it's just a desecration and a betrayal of the character's archetype to fit the narrative the from that point onwards. This is pretty much repeating what I just typed above.
It's clear that Lightning doesn't approve of Serah and Snow's relationship, however, I think this stems from her dislike of Snow. I think I can understand your point of view that it can be a bit of both. In fact I mentioned in previous posts that it's not that she doesn't care about Serah. However, I feel the primary reason is her strong dislike for Snow's character as a whole. She feels that he's brash, impulsive, immature, and stupid. It's not a matter of him being not good enough. She feels that he's just not a responsible person period.
Your patronizing is appreciated.
I thought Lighting was just tedious. The whole, grumpy 'I hate everyone and am a badass loner' thing might be cool if you are fourteen, but the character is a grown woman with a military rank- it just makes her come across as a sulky child rather than a capable individual. I just don't see how she could ever have functioned in a career or anyone could have looked up to or followed her when she is just so detestable.
Too often people think a female character can be forgiven anything if she is hot, which also happens to be the initial point of character design for virtually all female characters in games. They have a much smaller variety of body shapes in character design than male characters (big or small breasts seems to be the greatest choice, all the female characters have otherwise the same build of slim and toned, whereas even when Hope grows up he has zero chance of being the same size as Snow), but being attractive isn't a character trait that can make up for a whole wardrobe full of negative ones.
As for looks, I don't really like the FFXIII designs where the girls have legs twice as long as their bodies, their limbs are as thin as coat hangers and yet they are still able to swing huge melee weapons. It's the uncanny valley thing- They look cool at first but then I notice that they all look like freaks.
Too often people think a female character can be forgiven anything if she is hot, which also happens to be the initial point of character design for virtually all female characters in games. They have a much smaller variety of body shapes in character design than male characters (big or small breasts seems to be the greatest choice, all the female characters have otherwise the same build of slim and toned, whereas even when Hope grows up he has zero chance of being the same size as Snow), but being attractive isn't a character trait that can make up for a whole wardrobe full of negative ones.
As for looks, I don't really like the FFXIII designs where the girls have legs twice as long as their bodies, their limbs are as thin as coat hangers and yet they are still able to swing huge melee weapons. It's the uncanny valley thing- They look cool at first but then I notice that they all look like freaks.
Shin Kojima
Banned
Because she looks more like this than she looks like an actual person:
NSFW? http://i.imgur.com/fqybYkF.jpg
She also has an intolerable voice (I hate Liara as well because of this).
NSFW? http://i.imgur.com/fqybYkF.jpg
She also has an intolerable voice (I hate Liara as well because of this).
Dude. NSFW label please?
Sapphire Dreams
Member
Because she is a booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring protagonist with no personality what so ever.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Well we can't really separate her from FF XIII. If I found FF XIII and parts of its story objectionable, and Lightning is the biggest embodiment of them, tada. If it was somebody I liked from a game I liked, cameo appearances wouldn't be a big deal. But if it's the embodiment of something I didn't like being given sequels and getting her name in game titles, then it's a sign of a bigger split between me and SE.TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
Didn't follow Half-Life 3, Duke Nukem Forever and other games deemed to be vapor-wares in the same vein as Versus, but what makes the latter stands out is how inspirational the base-material, as in all pieces of media released so far, is. Never felt that with gaming before.
Kageshinzo
Member
How is it inspirational though? From the trailers I've seen so far, it looks very much like any Nomura project to me. Typical sullen, stoic hero and somewhat flirty female lead (when they met and talked in that one scene) that reminds me of Squall and Rinoa when they first met, in generic Nomura-style art. Generic cutscene action. It's really just typical generic Nomura "AWESOME COOL EYE-CANDY!" stuff. Which was why the love gushing about it here in this forum is perplexing to me.
She perfectly represents the Advent Children effect inside Square. They try to make the characters "cool" by keeping them in stupid postures, keeping their faces without any expression and the whole realdolls art direction is just bad.
I hate Advent Children and everything it represents. You can put Cloud from AC, Lightning and Noctis in the same room and the world would end because of reality warping. They are the same exact characters now.
Also she was badly written, acted and designed.
I hate Advent Children and everything it represents. You can put Cloud from AC, Lightning and Noctis in the same room and the world would end because of reality warping. They are the same exact characters now.
Also she was badly written, acted and designed.
hit the nail on the head.
daninthemix
Member
She is the bland, sullen hero from a million forgotten movies.
Tera, Tifa, Aeris - those are memorable female leads.
EDIT - and Celes. A thousand times the woman Lightning is.
Tera, Tifa, Aeris - those are memorable female leads.
EDIT - and Celes. A thousand times the woman Lightning is.
Design by sub-traction.
I take Versus' cameos the same way as people do when they've beat Ueda's games.
Now I won't lie. While I've been fond of Versus for years through, it's only recently I've started to get obsessed with it because of Internet drama that happened to me a month ago. Every single bit of said drama, whether it has to be in terms of plot or characters, can relate to what we know about Versus so far. The analogy is unsettling; Versus can really well be a fantasy based on a (virtual) reality, as they put it.
Kagari has unwarrantedly played an important role in said drama since I've mentioned her name over there more than once, even though I had never talked to her before. That's where the whole Stella/Kagari and Noctis/Me comes from; albeit she had probably no idea of what she was getting into when she switched her avatar back to Stella after I've told her I intended to pimp out Noctis from when she did me a great favor by salvaging the e-entertainment of a community of 50+ people. Process had been very tricky at times, because I had to come up with the fan-fiction in order to reach out to FFGAF without giving the impression we were flirting together. She wasn't my accomplice.
Story literally is an online fairytale. I can always provide you with more details in private if you want to know more about that.
What the eff!?
Also.....Kagari is a lady!?
If my close reading is correct, it's not as creepy as it sounds.
But basically, the general idea is that because we know so little about Versus, the small details we do know take greater significance. The world of the game is a giant mystery box. Though we know a little about the sort of setting it is and basic elements about the characters, anything could be inside! So Narolf can dive into the outlines of that world and build a gigantic, perfect fantasy inside his head. He can even occupy it vicariously, because the game doesn't exist. He has a lot of leeway to imagine the Noctis character he'd like the most. I think all the stuff with Kagari works within that context (the imagined Versus world, not the virtual land of GAF or real life). At least, that's what I want to be the case. I'm not actually interested in the details, any more than I actually want to know the deep fundamental truths behind the world of Fabula Nova Crystalis.
Of course, when Versus comes out, that waveform will have to collapse, and the perfection that can only exist in our imaginations could be destroyed easily, just as it has been countless times in the past in Star Wars, Mass Effect, Final Fantasy VII, or elsewhere. Nobody wants answers. They want a premise, a promise, a world they can occupy filled with new places to discover and new possibilities to be realized.
At this point, Versus's unique fusion of modern society and JRPG magical power fantasy has a lot of promise. We'll see if that's still true when it finally comes out.
CrankyKong
Member
Her character did nothing for me, and she keeps showing up in games.
But I mean if there is this massive audience out there that loves her by all means keep making them.
But I mean if there is this massive audience out there that loves her by all means keep making them.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I too am perplexed by the hype Versus gets. We will see if it ever surfaces, I guess.
Couldn't have summed up my own vision more subtly myself. Very good job.
While Versus is the loam, the story also encapsulates analogies to FF (II, V, VII, VIII, IX and X), KH, Persona, DmC and Tekken; albeit I've never made the last two ones apparent, even though they were on the draft. Chances are, there may also be some Titanic buried in there, but that one better stays buried for how immoral it is; also, Bonnie & Clyde, with the romance replaced by brotherhood. You get the point.
I could go on and go on by making a giant post summing up all references, but as it stands, I have the impression to be basking in the attention here. I wouldn't mind doing it in the FFC thread in the event enough people ask for it, at least three.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
1. I would think a hopeless character just plain wouldn't give a shit anymore or would be morally depressed with their surroundings.
2. She DID NOT just lose her parents. Her nameless father was called out for a mission and he never returned and is otherwise considered dead or MIA. At the age of 15 her mother died from sickness and she was left alone to fend with her twin sister, her only remaining family.
3. There is no debate. The fal'cie leaders have manipulated the people to believe that life on Gran Pulse is "evil" and must be eradicated and as XIII shows the populace is gullible and easily persuaded thus Gran Pulse is thrust into repeated wars all in a grand scheme to sacrifice mass amounts of life to open Etro's Gate which may be in direct relation to the Interdimensional Rift, or specifically the Ethereal Plane of Existence.
4. She was not being overprotective, she was being selfish. Serah was her only connection to human interaction, and Snow threatened to take away what gave her life meaning hence she lashed out and pushed her away instead of grasping the situation to her full understanding. This one reckless act causes Snow to do something if Lightning, Serah's own sister, refuses to take action.
5. Lightning never inquired about the relationship about Snow and Serah, therefore did not choose to understand the "why" they like each other.
6. Lightning's imprisonment into Valhalla goes directly against her statement of not serving a higher power and fighting her fate, instead the opposite happens. And her choice to have Noel bring Serah to her finalizes Serah's death at Lightning's diction. With this Lightning's only reason for living and her sole motivation is drawn to extinction and by none other then Lightning herself, in effect concluding the last page of Serah's biography.
7. Her personality didn't progress. It had a 180 degree turn.
--------------------------
Whereas we have GILGAMESH.
In Type 0 it is revealed
that he is born in Orience as the son of the King of Genbu. Because of his position he is scorned and distrusted by the populace of Genbu as a King of Genbu must be strong and demonstrate his power to be accepted by the warrior nation. In his childhood there was only one friend he ever had. Enkidu. It is implied they were close and did many things together, when the king died GILGAMESH was tested and succeeded in battle and was to become King. In the year 832 a coup d'tat occured, an assassination on the king's life, which Enkidu prevented but the cost was great...Enkidu's very life. GILGAMESH was overcome with rage and he wanted to kill his friend's murderers but was quelled by his dying friend's last words for him to spare them. In accordance he exiled these betrayer's from the nation. But Enkidu's death was a mighty blow to GILGAMESH'S mind and not even the Crystal could eliminate the memory of his friend, the only one he could trust, in this sense GILGAMESH was alone, stricken with grief he went on to rule Genbu not feeling anger towards the people of Genbu, guided solely by his friend's last words.
10 years later in 842, the Pax Codex Peace Treaty is broken by the Milites Empire and attacked Suzaku and was repelled, the next move was to attack Genbu directly and in a single stroke by dropping an Atomic Bomb on the nation known as the Ultima Bomb, except this one was bolstered by an L'cie making it far more powerful. In this instance Genbu is completely wiped from the face of Orience and GILGAMESH in the manga appears to be enveloped by the Bomb at point blank range. However, he miraculously survived, though it was not by mere chance it was due to the Armor of the King he wore, an armor forged by the Genbu Crystal's power that it is able to negate destructive power even that of Eidolons and the Ultima Bomb, of which Ultima means "The Strongest". When he awoke he would realize that he alone survived, he the King of Genbu, all his subjects annihilated with him as the survivor. A king of a dead nation. In his frustration and the later knowledge that the Genbu Crystal is drained of it's strength can be implied that GILGAMESH took his despair and frustration on the Crystal absorbing it's strength, combined with possible radiation from the Ultima Bomb slowly affecting his body. He goes mad, insane and loses his mind.
At the battle of the Big Bridge, he seemingly appears out of nowhere and annihilates Milites and Rubrum forces singlehandedly in a primitive rampage with the remnants of the crystal and GILGAMESH himself fighting for his very own body, a battle of the mind. Nothing could stand in his path, no magitek armor or eidolon, nor Class Zero could stop him. He spares Class Zero as he barely wins out in his mentality and regains his senses but not who he is and is disappointed with his foe's strength and leaves the battle. Alexander is summoned which completely decimates the Milites Empire's bulk of forces,
GILGAMESH is able to survive this onslaught of destruction again only through the armor but by time he reaches the capital he is severely weakened, he fights Machina only to regain his memories of who he was and fights Machina seeking to die, he is defeated but does not die. Instead it is implied he falls into the Rift by being consumed by his own power.
Here a transformation occurs and he becomes more monstrous, and by his own direction he begins seeking weapons based on what he remembers of what his people expected from him. From here on out he traveled Orience for weapons and continues his eternal quest throughout the FF series seeking worthy opponents and will take their weapons upon their defeat, never seeking to kill as to live by Enkidu's last words.
10 years later in 842, the Pax Codex Peace Treaty is broken by the Milites Empire and attacked Suzaku and was repelled, the next move was to attack Genbu directly and in a single stroke by dropping an Atomic Bomb on the nation known as the Ultima Bomb, except this one was bolstered by an L'cie making it far more powerful. In this instance Genbu is completely wiped from the face of Orience and GILGAMESH in the manga appears to be enveloped by the Bomb at point blank range. However, he miraculously survived, though it was not by mere chance it was due to the Armor of the King he wore, an armor forged by the Genbu Crystal's power that it is able to negate destructive power even that of Eidolons and the Ultima Bomb, of which Ultima means "The Strongest". When he awoke he would realize that he alone survived, he the King of Genbu, all his subjects annihilated with him as the survivor. A king of a dead nation. In his frustration and the later knowledge that the Genbu Crystal is drained of it's strength can be implied that GILGAMESH took his despair and frustration on the Crystal absorbing it's strength, combined with possible radiation from the Ultima Bomb slowly affecting his body. He goes mad, insane and loses his mind.
At the battle of the Big Bridge, he seemingly appears out of nowhere and annihilates Milites and Rubrum forces singlehandedly in a primitive rampage with the remnants of the crystal and GILGAMESH himself fighting for his very own body, a battle of the mind. Nothing could stand in his path, no magitek armor or eidolon, nor Class Zero could stop him. He spares Class Zero as he barely wins out in his mentality and regains his senses but not who he is and is disappointed with his foe's strength and leaves the battle. Alexander is summoned which completely decimates the Milites Empire's bulk of forces,
GILGAMESH is able to survive this onslaught of destruction again only through the armor but by time he reaches the capital he is severely weakened, he fights Machina only to regain his memories of who he was and fights Machina seeking to die, he is defeated but does not die. Instead it is implied he falls into the Rift by being consumed by his own power.
Here a transformation occurs and he becomes more monstrous, and by his own direction he begins seeking weapons based on what he remembers of what his people expected from him. From here on out he traveled Orience for weapons and continues his eternal quest throughout the FF series seeking worthy opponents and will take their weapons upon their defeat, never seeking to kill as to live by Enkidu's last words.
Later he travels to the different worlds and is placed in various roles, where sometimes he fights the heroes on equal footing but loses out or he may even surpass them but uses the Excalipoor or is shafted out in a comedic manner. Other situations are more serious as such in FF8, where he didn't mess around. And since he accompanies some of the heroes in certain installments it can be implied he helps defeat villains like Kefka, Ultimecia, the final boss in Revenant Wings, and Caius himself.
But the point is GILGAMESH truly discarded his past even if he was dealt a crappy hand of cards. He tries to make the best of it and tries to retain his humanity or what's left of it by adhering to his original home's customs and mannerisms. As that's all he has left. He is their sole living memory.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
So Magius did do a Gilgamesh comparison.
Did you expect anything less?
It's amazing how people can give very good grounded reasons to why Lightning's a shit character, yet the ones who like her can only back up their opinion with "Because she looks cool" or "Because she's hot". And even then, there's people that still say they she's a good character.
Humanity is fucked.
Humanity is fucked.
Surprisingly, yes! Thought you'd only list points of rebuttal without comparison. But it didn't disappoint.
legacyzero
Banned
It's not lightning I hate. It's FFXIII in general. Also the fact that Square-Enix thinks that we want MORE of her.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Some of us honestly do.. whether it's financially sound for them..I don't really care. More of something I like is what's awesome. I totally get that some don't want it, of course.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Probably because Toriyama nets them short term profit.
Technically XIII-2's sales were doubled if you suggest each copy also bought all the DLC.
I really surprised XIII-2 sold that well after the massive disappointment people had with XIII.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Well there are Square loyalists who can be hurt by Square and still buy whatever they toss at them.
And I think XIII-2 had the hype going for it. And Lightning was their main selling point.
What is cool about her? She's just a female Squall.
I heard XIII-2 did a lot worse than XIII though.
I think Lightning's okay, but I just don't get why she's being pushed. Square had lots of great characters in all their other FF games, but they've all been one-and-dones. You can't tell me that Lightning was such an amazing character that she became bigger than the game and demanded further exploration.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Less than a third of FFXIII's sales.
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