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London Mayor Sadiq Khan: nationalism can be as divisive as bigotry and racism

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Audioboxer

Member
To be fair this is a more or less a part of Scottish culture. :) There's a rather humorous quote that I can't quite think of off the top of my head about the blame placed on the English for the clearances. On the other hand, though I think this declined over the course of the 20th century. The English tended to blame the Scots as a whole if anything went wrong with anything besides military matters involving even a single Scot.

I mean if you're just after a "lol", there is always the often linked Trainspotting quote :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1CB-D1TtXc
 

Macleoid

Member
I would say for most of the recent past British nationalism has been relatively benign. Things are taking a bad turn with nationalism throughout the west, that's not distinctly British. The only reason we had the Brexit is because Britain has always been the least invested in it.

British imperialism is the product of British nationalism and it was anything but benign. You only think that because it wasn't because you weren't affected. Politicians posing in front of British flags and riding tanks with British ensignia are Britnats, they don't seem benign too me they are part of an ugly continuum. I bet deep down a lot of Britnats wish Ireland and India were still subject to British rule.
 

Cocaloch

Member
I mean if you're just after a "lol", there is always the often linked Trainspotting quote :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1CB-D1TtXc

This isn't quite the quote I was thinking about but it is close in sentiment.

Scots understand that Scots bear a large share of the blame for the Highland clearances, but, being Scots, they know in their bones that the English must have been behind it somehow.

The other one is far more pithy, but unfortunately I only know what book its in and its not worth the effort to dig it up. I love the Scottish people and Scottish culture, but this has been a problem that hasn't been sufficiently acknowledged since at least the failure of the Solemn League and Covenant. Which is fine, every culture has its issues, but I think we need to be aware of them.

British imperialism is the product of British nationalism and it was anything but benign.

Err what? the two major takes on this I know are Linda Colley's which places it after the emergence of Imperialism, and the one that puts it the other way around, i.e. the empire created British nationalism. I'm partial to the later with several of the arguments from Colley supplementing it. Either way it was outside the scope of what I meant when I said recent past, so I will clarify that I meant the last 60 years or so.

You only think that because it wasn't because you weren't affected.

This is a bizarre assumption. Besides the fact that you shouldn't be making it in the first place, it's statistically ridiculous to assume that. The British Empire was one of the most influential structures in human history. I'd wager almost every human in the world has been profoundly affected by its existence.

Politicians posing in front of British flags and riding tanks with British ensignia are Britnats, they don't seem benign too me they are part of an ugly continuum. I bet deep down a lot of Britnats wish Ireland and India were still subject to British rule.

I'm sure there are a number of them. I'm fairly sure it's not a majority, and if it was a majority it's probably more from a place of ignorance than actual convictions. Obviously anyone that says Ireland, I've only run into one person like this in my life, or India, admittedly this is more common, should still be under British control. That's a terrible thing, but it comes from a problem in education usually over people just genuinely being terrible.

I don't think nationalism tends to be a good thing at all. At best it's often just kind of neutral at worst its one of the most dangerous social forces. In relative terms British nationalism has been fairly benign since at least Suez.

Additionally in this very thread I've voiced serious problems with how British identity is created and what it has historically meant for Scottish, Welsh, and Irish people so I'm not sure what you're trying to call me out on exactly.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Yeah I know, I was more posting it for a joke. It's a pretty terrible quote, but it's trainspotting, so it's funny lol.

Corbyn seems destined to double down today. This is clearly going to end well for Scottish Labour!

The SNP must "respect democracy" and accept Scotland is leaving the European Union with the rest of the UK, the Labour leader will say later on Sunday.

Jeremy Corbyn will use a speech at the Scottish Labour conference to criticise the SNP's record in government at Holyrood.

His speech comes just a day after a controversial address by London mayor Sadiq Khan at the conference.

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1381718-corbyn-snp-must-respect-democracy-and-accept-brexit/

Again, I've said it multiple times in this topic, you can stand against independence, but just be wise about how you deliver that message. Corbyn should be reminded he's talking to a nation who voted against Brexit, irrespective of the SNP. A little empathy wouldn't go amiss without charging in like a bull dog wanting to lay a smack down. As I also said Labour are so skittish about being associated with the SNP in any way due to the Union. There's times you gotta bite that bullet guys and you might be surprised to learn if you show some empathy to the greater political scene in Scotland you might actually give some in favour of independence some "UK hope". Not cause them to double down themselves and think every party opposing the Tories is a selfish crock of shit (mostly aimed at Labour).

Yes, it's their conference and of course they're going to do the usual better together spiel. However, this time in the face of Brexit aimed at a nation who definitely had to have some Labour remainers, it's best to curate your words carefully. Khan laid down some hefty words yesterday, and if Corbyn follows today as I said, what little is left of Scottish Labour is only going to be marginalised further by their refusal to adapt even an inch when addressing Scotland. Considering Corbyn probably voted leave or at least had leave sympathy, I won't be surprised to hear him chant Brexit unity time! To which a portion of the people, and even some of the Scottish media, will be rolling their eyes. Especially considering how dire Labours attempts were to even attempt to oppose a hard Brexit.

Scotlands not the place you want to be blowing your steam off at Corbyn. Need anyone remind you as well trying to oppose Brexit in every way you legally can is... democratic? Having a legal referendum is... democratic. Maybe some of the passion to actually try and oppose the Tories/Brexit should have worn off on yourself long before now and your party wouldn't be in such a backstabbing shambles. Some of these snippets remind me of everyone who screams at Americans to respect that Trump is the president. Yeah, he is, and he won democratically, but the people and the opposing party can also use all the powers democracy gives to oppose/fight back. Deal with it, and have a bit more compassion/sense than to just whine about following Brexit in line like good like girls/boys pandering to the Tories. That's ironically not how democracy works. Democracy is a constant battle and fight, and if there are ways to legally oppose and challenge something, why on earth aren't they going to be tested to see if they are avenues which can be used? Yes there are times parties trying to work together can be the right way to approach a situation, rather than always scorching the earth, but Brexit ain't some debate over tax rates, it's one of the largest things to hit this country, probably ever. Therefore, probably a good idea to choose your words carefully when it comes to lecturing a country to fall in line which voted majority remain, and you're suppose to be a party leader/party who supported remain...

Shits going down on Twitter... as always. Still find it weird to see politicians use Twitter. I guess it is the quickest way to communicate with the people, as it bypasses all the media, but it's still funny. At least anyone with a bit of decency doesn't go to Trump levels of Twitter shitposting. Tasmina is boss, great MP. Typical Torry response to her.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38801422

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Joni

Member
Belgium is a rare pseudo-exception, but Wallonia and Flanders are much closer in population. A better comparison to the equivalent in the UK would be if, for example, Northern Ireland (3% of UK pop.) had that veto power you mention, it'd be more like if the German-speaking Community in Belgium (1% of Belgian pop.) had that same veto Wallonia and Flanders have. In the UK, if such a thing were to happen where each country got an absolute veto, that would mean the 84% of the population in England could always be overridden, and given the uncodified constitution, that'd make things even more difficult. Throw in Wales and you're looking at 89% of the population being vetoed, and a theoretical Northern Irish veto of a constitutional question at referendum could veto 97% of the UK's total population at some point.

It is a bad example which I have already told you in a previous topic, because Belgium has a part that only represents 10% of the population that has the same veto powers: Brussels. That is only slightly higher than Scotlands percentage population. Just like Scotland and Northern Ireland, these all have their own political parties with weak associations between them. You are confusing the cultural communities based around the languages with the political communities.
 

Jezbollah

Member
Is this Labour's strategy? Offset the seats lost in their heartlands with those gained by such a campaign in Scotland?
 

Audioboxer

Member
Is this Labour's strategy? Offset the seats lost in their heartlands with those gained by such a campaign in Scotland?

Pretty certain they aren't going to gain many seats up here with this scorched earth policy.... Did they forget they had their own red wedding in Scotland in 2015?

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Yeah non-UK GAF, that is minus 40 seats... in one election. Not to relive 2015, but Corbyn should be aware of "warning signs" when addressing the Scottish people if they (Labour) don't want to continue to repeat 2015. Austerity is a fucker, but Brexit takes the cake in current times for not being particularly "liked" in Scotland.

Against these warning signs, Labour appeared impotent or at best ignored that the writing was on the political wall. The party had been attacked from the left, from the SNP and from many of its own voters, for siding with the Tories in the defence of the Union in 2014. The sight of Labour MPs and MSPs sharing platforms with the Tories did not go down well in its heartland areas. That Labour, the Tories and the Liberals all entered the 2015 General Election campaign with a commitment to some degree of ‘austerity' meant that voters who were opposed to austerity, cuts in public services and welfare reforms, attacks on welfare benefits and who were against the rising inequality that characterises both Scotland and the UK, looked to the SNP as the main party who were campaigning on an anti-austerity message.

http://www.open.edu/openlearn/peopl...15-general-election-scotland-the-rise-the-snp

Depending on what Corbyn says today, coming off the back of Khan yesterday, he really could be putting yet another nail in the coffin of Labour up here. All while he seems to be doing a damn fine good job of putting nails in Labours coffin south of the border as well... I don't envy the position the guy is in, but damn he is not a leader irrespective of some of the morals he has I do agree with. War criminal Blair can get to fuck as well, Labour just need a do-over with someone younger and better at leading.

All while the Tories go from inept and pompous, Cameron, to comically evil May, and their popularity is still soaring in the polls. It's just getting depressing.
 
Who are the SNP being racist against? What part of their message, policies or manifesto is discriminating against a race of people? Can you post a video of Nicola Sturgeon standing up and discriminating against a group of people/race? If their message as you say has a clear problem with racism it shouldn't be hard to show.

A political ideological difference isn't instantly racist unless it is backed or fueled by anti-immigration rhetoric (or anti-minority group(s)) like Brexit was.



Same question applies, who is Alex Salmond being racist against?

billy connley said it best years ago. the racism that has allowed to fester towards the english due to the SNP isn't opinion, it's fact. I'm not saying all nationalists or snp supports are racist towards the english. But to deny that their message and blame game for the last 20+ years hasn't caused racism, is absurd. Salmond blame game is a key example. He even switched using the term westminster politicians towards the end of his political career because he even realised what an idiot he was.

No idea why you're bringing up brexit and anti immigrant rhetoric. Scots and English can be racist to each other you know.
 
There is a certain level of anglophobic sentiment to certain supporters of Scottish independence, I don't think anyone should pretend there isn't. I've HEARD it around me, living in a city that was very "yes".

But that doesn't come from the current SNP, or their campaign.
 

Audioboxer

Member
billy connley said it best years ago. the racism that has allowed to fester towards the english due to the SNP isn't opinion, it's fact. I'm not saying all nationalists or snp supports are racist towards the english. But to deny that their message and blame game for the last 20+ years hasn't caused racism, is absurd. Salmond blame game is a key example. He even switched using the term westminster politicians towards the end of his political career because he even realised what an idiot he was.

No idea why you're bringing up brexit and anti immigrant rhetoric. Scots and English can be racist to each other you know.

The point is by large the SNP don't campaign on bigotry or racism. Saying they want to stand up for Scotland, or put Scotland first, isn't racism. This gets bees in the bonnets as unionists would understandably wish they rattled off about standing up for the UK (ironically that was their message in 2015, trying to be progressive for all of the UK). Unfortunately though due to political divisions, what the SNP want for Scotland doesn't seem to be what the majority of the rUK want. As in the majority voted for Brexit and seem to fully back the Tories and austerity. Even when the SNP has tried to form allegiances with Labour, as I said above Labour get skittish and don't want to be seen colluding with a pro-independence party. Dare I remind you of the BetterTogether smearing that tried to say Labour were in the SNPs pockets? The SNP are largely toxic by default for nearly any British political party as the hysteria around anyone daring to stand with a party who wants to breakup the union trumps even being able to work together on individual issues. Which is sad, but hey, it's precisely what leads to political divides, and the Labour 'red wedding' in 2015. The rule Britania saber rattling that cannot even be put down for 10 minutes to work together on important issues is precisely what is dividing Scotland from the rUK. Yes, there are a healthy dose of pro-independence rattlers up here, but things like austerity and Brexit piss off even non-independence voters. That explains precisely why Labour was wiped out right after a country voted no to independence (2014 vs 2015). Labour were still going on about austerity and being Tory-lite, so their Scottish seats got nuked.

Bringing up Brexit and anti-immigration sentiment was to show you how a party, largely UKIP, actually campaign on bigotry. The Tories and Labour veered somewhat into this as well, with unclear immigration messages, and somewhat pandering to Daily Mail readers. Conservatives because they don't care and/or truly supported Brexit, Labour because they are shooting in the dark trying to pickup seats and votes and selling their morals/principles out in the process.

By in large the actual politics and shifts/divisions have fuck all to do with idiots up here/football hooligans and any other potty mouths. As earlier in this topic putting up a student calling Cameron an 'English Twat' as some important piece to reflect on 5.25m people is short-sighted at best. It's why Khan trying to be a little loose with his words to negatively paint a whole nation, if not a large part of the nation got blown back in his face. You're trying to smear the nation that voted the majority against Brexit, and has been voting pretty damn progressive for a while now. That's not going to help if your political end game is actually wanting to keep the union together. Imagine that, somewhat smearing people who are largely progressive, and in favour of multiculturism does not get received well. Are there pretty noisy, almost insufferable SNP voters on social media? Yeah, sure. You know what though? When you actually have some evidence and backing to show you stand on the side of tolerance and progressive thinking, maybe just maybe you have a little breathing room to be rather noisy and veering on insufferable at times. Especially when the alternative can often be around being a smug elite, talking about your private education, private health insurance and distaste around poor people, disabled, immigrants and wanting to be a mini-America (as in some of the negative aspects of America ~ Notably private health care and war/army spending). Politics will always provide some heated, verging on insufferable debates at times. The more important question for everyone is what side of tolerance, acceptance and progressive thinking are you standing on? Simply pointing a finger at a group of people and stating what a bunch of noisy insufferable twats, doesn't always correlate with what your party of choice, or you yourself, actually vote for/back.

Us vs them/tribalistic mentalities are often a net negative, but they happen in politics, and will continue to. As I just said though when they do the more important question to ask yourself is what is the 'team' I'm supporting actually standing for? What are their actual policies? How can humanity be benefited? Are we caring adequately about the worst off? What are the actual negatives and positives within policy to what the party I align myself is backing? Opposed to, I must just crush my enemies! Which is what the SNP are to many unionists. Simply an enemy who want to breakup the UK. The further Labour continue to spin that narrative the further they'll get to that last Labour seat in Scotland being nuked. Maybe Labour are content to just write off ever getting Scottish seats again, but you know what, they are actually pissing off some Labour voters in England as well. Even on GAF you see some English Labour voters almost begrudginly saying cut yourself away from the rUK Scotland. Even with the challenges Scotland would face on its own. That's probably more to do with huge discontent with Labour/Corbyn, than it is actually wanting the UK to be broken up. It is where we are though, people actually uttering such statements in 2017 and they aren't even Scottish.

Edit: I should probably add a final disclaimer after this long rant that no its not a hit piece against everyone who votes Conservative (or Labour). Nor am I even suggesting everything the Tory party stands for is rotten. It's more to try and show how people who fundamentally disagree with Scottish independence can still vote SNP in a general election because the net gain of the party can appear to be socially progressive. Or at least more so than what the opposition offers. Too many observers still seem to see a vote for the SNP as toxic by nature because the union might be under threat. The ideological and political issues around the union being under threat are far deeper than just a sole party wanting independence, or a student calling Cameron some unflattering name. It's a nation also feeling at a loss because something like Brexit comes along and only adds fuel to the fire that political divisions are at an all time high. They are, and simply calling for unity isn't cutting the mustard anymore, in the same way people telling Americans they must now unify with Trump gets met with blowback. Democracy is all about legally fighting back/protesting/making your voice heard. Independence from a union might be the shotgun approach, but if done correctly and above board it is both democratic and legal. If more and more people feel backed into a corner and disillusioned at the way the union is going, sympathy to independence is going to somewhat be stimulated. Brexit cannot just be voted 'out' in 4 years time at the next GE. It's a huge shift for where this union is heading.
 
You're a Tory. The party of Philip Davies and Rees Mogg don't go throwing stones.

And they absolutely deserved to be called out on it when they do. A quick glance at Twitter - yeah, ok, it's Twitter but still - shows that people pointing out the "error" are quickly hounded as being Un-Scottish (if they're Scottish) or told to keep their beak out (if they're not) - they don't seem overly concerned about, for example, the fact that "export duty" doesn't exist and that exports going through English ports are counted by GERS as Scottish exports (and the most ridic thing, of course, is that GERS is compiled by the Scottish government under the control of the SNP, so you would think any such mistakes would have been fixed in the ~decade since the SNP have been running the show).

Incidentally, I've only actually voted Tory once, and that was for Boris in 2012.
 

Audioboxer

Member

Yeah, I posted a link to that this morning.

Corbyn will tell the SNP to "listen to the people and respect democracy" following the UK-wide vote to leave the European Union last year.

In a further attack on Scottish nationalism, Corbyn plans to quote Scottish Labour MSP Neil Findlay and tell the conference, "You can't pay your bills with a Saltire and you can't eat a flag."

The issue isn't so much Labour having a stance on keeping the union together, as I elaborated further on within some of my rants above. It's about being somewhat careful how you go about wording your thoughts. Like it or not Scotland as a whole ain't too chuffed with Brexit, with the backing of the SNP or not. Somewhat cushioning the blow is wiser than the "respect the vote fuckers!". Within the Labour voters left up here a decent chunk of them will be remain voters. Corbyn best not alienate them with some moral high ground about unity with the Tories. Flying too close to the Tory sun is precisely what nuked Labour in the 2015 GE in Scotland. Where a young lady in Mhairi Black was able to knock down a longstanding Labour seat ~ https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/08/snp-mhairi-black-20-labour-student-mp

She was up against one of the best-known Labour MPs left in Scotland, Douglas Alexander, who was defending a majority of more than 16,000. He was not only shadow foreign secretary but had lots of election experience in abundance, enough to secure him the job of Labour's UK campaign coordinator.

As much as I thought and still do think Mhairi Black is a fairly principled and down to earth MP, it was still one hell of a black eye for Labour given her inexperience.
 
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