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[Anton Sugar]

Ok, so he told him he was going to destroy the island because he doesn't care????? But he SHOULD care! Remember, he NEEDS Ben. NEEDS being the operative word in case you didn't pick up on that. If you need something from someone you don't tell them something they don't want to hear. It was dumb. Jesus, people are daft here!

Read:

Let's say Ben was dumb enough to be fooled again and to buy MIB's promise of leaving him the island (which is bullshit and we all know it, but let's just pretend). Let's say Smokey was even dumber and slipped his whole plan by mistake.

Then we have two possible scenarios:

1. Ben realizes he's been played by MIB again and is dumb enough to say "sorry man, I won't help you anymore" and tries to leave. What would MIB do? He would just kill him and go find Desmond on his own.

2. Ben realizes he's been played by MIB again and turns against him. But MIB is the motherfucking smoke monster. What would Ben do? Shoot him?

Bingo!!! Why is this so hard to understand? Ben is pretty much in the same position we are in--we don't know what's going to happen to him.

 

[Jocchan]

God, you are slow.

Ben wanted to kill Locke since day one, for a variety of reasons:
- crippled man lands on island and gets healed, while healthy Ben gets a tumor
- the Others look to John as a savior and want to follow him, while Ben rules by fear because thats all he has, and the Others are forced to follow him
- Ben never communicated with Jacob, yet when Locke goes into the cabin, he gets a response
Among many other things.

The only reason Ben didnt kill Locke on first sight off island is because he knew he had to put his vendetta aside until he knew how to get back to the island. The SECOND he knows how, he kills Locke, which he had wanted to do forever.

Yes, I understand this show a lot better than you.

Is it a coincidence that I imagined this post being read with Terry O' Quinn's voice?
Never agreed more with you.

 

[StrikerObi]

Misc. thoughts and questions

Jack's sudden acceptance of the position didn't really ring true to me. It seemed anti-climactic and too easy, since he doesn't know anything about what the job entails. Then again, I'm still annoyed at how many times he's changed his fucking mind about everything this season. First he decided to get on the boat to get away from Smokie and get on the plane, then 2 minutes after they set sail he decides he's supposed to be with Locke so he jumps off, then as soon as the others come and get him he decides Locke's dangerous so he betrays Locke and gets on the sub.

Jack just escaped an exploding submarine, a trap set up by Smokey. So Jack clearly HATES Smokey now. The Protector's job is to stop Smokey. Jack is a character that has made many rash decisions. He makes a rash decision to accept the job of The Protector because it aligns him against Smokey, whom he currently has a seething contempt for. It makes perfect sense for Jack's character.

In true Lost fashion, Jacob says "sit down and I'll tell you everything" and then tells them nothing. He says they have to kill Smokie to protect the Island, but no one asks "He's a fucking pillar of black smoke who bullets pass through and can possess dead bodies, how exactly do we kill something like that?" Sure, we know a little about that story from Across the Sea, but they sure as hell don't. Argh.

Jacob doesn't know how to kill Smokey. He even tells them that he hopes it can be done. If he doesn't know, how is he supposed to tell them how to do it?

After the sub failed to kill everyone, Locke said he had to "finish what he started," which we all took to mean kill the rest of the group. So...he went back to Dharmaville to talk to Ben?

He needs somebody else to kill the candidates. He put the bomb on the sub hoping somebody would trigger it, and true to his "I disagree with everything Jack thinks" mentality, Sawyer triggered the bomb. In the end, Sawyer killed those people, not Smokey.

I'm not sure why Widmore is really the bad guy in all this. I get Ben blames him for killing Alex, but we do we know that was ordered by him? I just thought Keamy was the sort of bastard to do it regardless. His and Ben's interests were actually aligned this episode (stop Smokie from leaving) so while I understand Ben killing Widmore, it was sort of short-sighted.

The order to kill Alex was most likely part of the "secondary protocol" that Keamy knew about but the freighter's captain did not. If killing Alex was against the rules, surely Widmore would have informed Keamy of this, and Keamy wouldn't have. Instead, the secondary protocol ordered Keamy to break the rules.

 

[LM4sure]

God, you are slow.

Ben wanted to kill Locke since day one, for a variety of reasons:
- crippled man lands on island and gets healed, while healthy Ben gets a tumor
- the Others look to John as a savior and want to follow him, while Ben rules by fear because thats all he has, and the Others are forced to follow him
- Ben never communicated with Jacob, yet when Locke goes into the cabin, he gets a response
Among many other things.

The only reason Ben didnt kill Locke on first sight off island is because he knew he had to put his vendetta aside until he knew how to get back to the island. The SECOND he knows how, he kills Locke, which he had wanted to do forever.

Yes, I understand this show a lot better than you.

Ok, I was being sarcastic in case you didn't figure that out. Ok, I'll accept he didn't like Locke. And you'll accept that he wanted to get back to the island. But saying that he wanted to kill Locke MORE than he wanted to get back to the island...you're just pulling that out of your ass. I can say the island matters the most to him now that his daughter is dead and you cannot refute that. You just can't.

 

[Jacobi]

Do we know what concert this is that suddenly every character in the X time has to go to? Is it that Driveshaft one Charlie was on his way to?

the concert of jack's son

 

[Solo]

Is it a coincidence that I imagined this post being read with Terry O' Quinn's voice?

I think its destiny.

 

[Xrenity]

1. Flocke suddenly kills Zoe because 'She's of no use anymore'. What are the rules? You can kill anyone who is of no use?

2. 'I think you're mistaking coincidence for fate'

3. Desmonds a boss.

/edit
oh and 'kate it's just chalk lol'. What?

 

[Apoc29]

I'm kinda confused about Desmond now. Did MIB really imply that he was going to use Desmond to destroy the island? Because clearly Widmore brought Desmond to save the island, or at least stop MIB from leaving. Is destroying the island the thing that stops MIB, if so then why would MIB want that?

 

[LM4sure]

Read:



Bingo!!! Why is this so hard to understand? Ben is pretty much in the same position we are in--we don't know what's going to happen to him.

Well tell me why then when he needed Ben before, he tricked him? Why not just threaten him? All Ben apparently cares about is self-preservation.

 

[Solo]

Ok, I was being sarcastic in case you didn't figure that out. Ok, I'll accept he didn't like Locke. And you'll accept that he wanted to get back to the island. But saying that he wanted to kill Locke MORE than he wanted to get back to the island...you're just pulling that out of your ass. I can say the island matters the most to him now that his daughter is dead and you cannot refute that. You just can't.

Look, one last time:
Ben wants to get back to the island, and wants Locke dead. Ideally, he'd have both. By killing Locke first without getting any info, he cannot return to the island. By getting the info first, he can then kill Locke and still return, which is what he did. Its what anyone with a brain would have done that wanted both of these things.

 

[Jocchan]

Well there's also the possibility that Ben plays along and when he meets up with Jack to kill him actually teams up with Jack in order to bring the smoke monster down. It was too big a risk for smokey to tell Ben he was going to destroy the island. Better to try and fool him (even if Ben realized he was being played) then to outright say he lied to him 10 minutes ago? Why even lie 10 minutes ago?

Because he doesn't give a fuck, apparently. That's why I said it's a common trope in fiction: whenever the bad guy is too powerful to be defeated conventionally, he always underestimates something (in this case, possibly Ben) and this ends up leading to his demise.

Again, back to my other point, why even trick him into killing Jacob? Why not say kill Jacob or I kill you. Self-preservation would have kicked in and we could have avoided a lot of the "filler" that took place.

He sort of did this with Richard in Ab Aeterno, and it didn't work out. Who knows how many times he tried over the centuries, with more and more convoluted plans?

 

[LM4sure]

Look, one last time:
Ben wants to get back to the island, and wants Locke dead. Ideally, he'd have both. By killing Locke first without getting any info, he cannot return to the island. By getting the info first, he can then kill Locke and still return, which is what he did.

And I'll agree with that. He wanted both. But as you said, he wants to be on the island. That's all he cares about anymore. He's got nothing waiting for him off the island. So it's dumb of smokey to tell him he's going to destroy the one thing he has left in life. If he said that because it doesn't matter since Ben will help him to save himself, I go back to my point about when he tricked Ben into killing Jacob. Why trick him? Just threaten...

 

[duckroll]

Ok, I can go along with your first two paragraphs, but you lost me on the third. Smokey is obviously REALLY SMART so he should surely see that Ben might have a plan against him. So as I've said a couple of times now, Smokey should kill Ben in the first 10 seconds of the finale. No need to keep Ben around. He's useless to him now. Desmond is all Smokey needs.

Is Smokey really obviously REALLY SMART? Nothing in the show seems to suggest that. It took him almost 2000 years to find a loophole to kill Jacob. That's a fucking long time. Jacob's pretty dumb too, so that just makes it even less of an achievement.

Let's look at what just happened in the last few episode with Desmond: Smokey is so smart that he threw Desmond into a well not know what or who he was, and then asked Sayid to kill him. He then accepted Sayid's word that it was done, even though anyone looking at Sayid's face when he replied would tell you that he's lying. He then decided to move on without bothering to check the body. Later he finds out Desmond could be used for his plans, and he goes out to the well and goes "wow thank god Sayid didn't listen to me, and thank god some other people rescued him".

Yeah, that's brilliance right there.

 

[Solo]

And I'll agree with that. He wanted both. But as you said, he wants to be on the island. That's all he cares about anymore. He's got nothing waiting for him off the island. So it's dumb of smokey to tell him he's going to destroy the one thing he has left in life. If he said that because it doesn't matter since Ben will help him to save himself, I go back to my point about when he tricked Ben into killing Jacob. Why trick him? Just threaten...

Why trick him? Because it was so damned easy! MIB plays Ben like a fiddle in S5.

 

[Jocchan]

Is Smokey really obviously REALLY SMART? Nothing in the show seems to suggest that. It took him almost 2000 years to find a loophole to kill Jacob. That's a fucking long time. Jacob's pretty dumb too, so that just makes it even less of an achievement.

Let's look at what just happened in the last few episode with Desmond: Smokey is so smart that he threw Desmond into a well not know what or who he was, and then asked Sayid to kill him. He then accepted Sayid's word that it was done, even though anyone looking at Sayid's face when he replied would tell you that he's lying. He then decided to move on without bothering to check the body. Later he finds out Desmond could be used for his plans, and he goes out to the well and goes "wow thank god Sayid didn't listen to me, and thank god some other people rescued him".

Yeah, that's brilliance right there.

You single-handedly convinced me I was completely wrong in this last page.
MIB is fucking dumb.

 

[StrikerObi]

Look, one last time:
Ben wants to get back to the island, and wants Locke dead. Ideally, he'd have both. By killing Locke first without getting any info, he cannot return to the island. By getting the info first, he can then kill Locke and still return, which is what he did. Its what anyone with a brain would have done that wanted both of these things.

This is all dead on. I think the reason so many people ask so many questions about LOST (and generally don't really understand what is going on) is that most people aren't used to a show where everything that a character does is based entirely on the character's motivation, experiences, and beliefs up to that point. LOST requires you to really know the characters, including their histories, in order to understand their motivations and actions.

Other shows just have characters do shit that's out of character and move so quickly that you don't have time to question it (either that or they get canceled for being shitty). LOST has superbly well crafted characters that are fully fleshed out to the point where if you're paying attention you will understand every action they take based on what you've learned about them up to that point.

 

[LM4sure]

Is Smokey really obviously REALLY SMART? Nothing in the show seems to suggest that. It took him almost 2000 years to find a loophole to kill Jacob. That's a fucking long time. Jacob's pretty dumb too, so that just makes it even less of an achievement.

Let's look at what just happened in the last few episode with Desmond: Smokey is so smart that he threw Desmond into a well not know what or who he was, and then asked Sayid to kill him. He then accepted Sayid's word that it was done, even though anyone looking at Sayid's face when he replied would tell you that he's lying. He then decided to move on without bothering to check the body. Later he finds out Desmond could be used for his plans, and he goes out to the well and goes "wow thank god Sayid didn't listen to me, and thank god some other people rescued him".

Yeah, that's brilliance right there.

Remember when he tricked everyone into getting into the submarine? And remember when he knew all along that Sawyer was going to stab him in the back? That takes some pretty smart thinking if you ask me. And also, do you remember when he was still a human and he figured out how to get off the island? Yeah, he is REALLY SMART. Definitely not dumb.

Which leads to my next point that it was completely out of character to tell Ben he was going to destroy the island. That was a dumb move.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Well tell me why then when he needed Ben before, he tricked him? Why not just threaten him? All Ben apparently cares about is self-preservation.

Jesus. Why not just threaten anyone to kill the candidates? Threaten the people who didn't leave the temple instead of killing them! Threaten Claire! Threaten the polar bears!

 

[LM4sure]

Jesus. Why not just threaten anyone to kill the candidates? Threaten the people who didn't leave the temple instead of killing them! Threaten Claire! Threaten the polar bears!

you completely missed the point there, guy.

 

[SpacLock]

1. Flocke suddenly kills Zoe because 'She's of no use anymore'. What are the rules? You can kill anyone who is of no use?

2. 'I think you're mistaking coincidence for fate'

3. Desmonds a boss.

/edit
oh and 'kate it's just chalk lol'. What?

The rules only apply to people that Jacob is involved with.

 

[StrikerObi]

You single-handedly convinced me I was completely wrong in this last page.
MIB is fucking dumb.

I don't think it's so much that he's dumb (he's obviously pretty conniving). I think it's more that he's arrogant, over confident and headstrong. He brought Sayid back from the dead. Zombie Sayid only exists because of Smokey's power. Sayid has been behaving like a brainwashed automaton ever since. Knowing that, Smokey probably assumed that nobody could break the power of his brainwashing. After all, you're not even supposed to say one single word to Smokey because his ability to manipulate and convince people is legend.

 

[Blader]

Jack's sudden acceptance of the position didn't really ring true to me. It seemed anti-climactic and too easy, since he doesn't know anything about what the job entails.

Have you missed the fact that Jack is a man of faith now, and trusts in the island? This is what the past two years have been building to.

Then again, I'm still annoyed at how many times he's changed his fucking mind about everything this season. First he decided to get on the boat to get away from Smokie and get on the plane, then 2 minutes after they set sail he decides he's supposed to be with Locke so he jumps off, then as soon as the others come and get him he decides Locke's dangerous so he betrays Locke and gets on the sub.

Wow. How many times did Jack say this season, "I'm not leaving the island"? He wants to help everyone else leave, but he was never going himself.

In true Lost fashion, Jacob says "sit down and I'll tell you everything" and then tells them nothing.

He told them why he chose them, why they're on the island. That's, like, the defining answer for the whole show.

After the sub failed to kill everyone, Locke said he had to "finish what he started," which we all took to mean kill the rest of the group. So...he went back to Dharmaville to talk to Ben?

Yes, he wanted Ben to kill the remaining candidates for him. Didn't he just say that last night?


edit - fucking typos!

 

[MMaRsu]

Misc. thoughts and questions

Jack's sudden acceptance of the position didn't really ring true to me. It seemed anti-climactic and too easy, since he doesn't know anything about what the job entails. Then again, I'm still annoyed at how many times he's changed his fucking mind about everything this season. First he decided to get on the boat to get away from Smokie and get on the plane, then 2 minutes after they set sail he decides he's supposed to be with Locke so he jumps off, then as soon as the others come and get him he decides Locke's dangerous so he betrays Locke and gets on the sub.

In true Lost fashion, Jacob says "sit down and I'll tell you everything" and then tells them nothing. He says they have to kill Smokie to protect the Island, but no one asks "He's a fucking pillar of black smoke who bullets pass through and can possess dead bodies, how exactly do we kill something like that?" Sure, we know a little about that story from Across the Sea, but they sure as hell don't. Argh.

After the sub failed to kill everyone, Locke said he had to "finish what he started," which we all took to mean kill the rest of the group. So...he went back to Dharmaville to talk to Ben?

I'm not sure why Widmore is really the bad guy in all this. I get Ben blames him for killing Alex, but we do we know that was ordered by him? I just thought Keamy was the sort of bastard to do it regardless. His and Ben's interests were actually aligned this episode (stop Smokie from leaving) so while I understand Ben killing Widmore, it was sort of short-sighted.

Do we know what concert this is that suddenly every character in the X time has to go to? Is it that Driveshaft one Charlie was on his way to? Seems like sort of an odd thing to make the big finale where everyone has to come together and "awaken." I bet Desmond's going to have the orchestra play "Parting Words" from the Season 1 soundtrack to make them all remember.

Wait, I know: the concert they're all going to is an orchestral concert of music from a popular TV show at UCLA where it'll be revealed that the true form of Jacob is...Michael Giacchino. LOST.

Jack didn't get on the sub to go with it, he wanted to get off it but it went under before he could leave.

 

[duckroll]

Here's why I think Ben killed Widmore: because he couldn't take it knowing that Widmore made a different choice than he did. When Alex died, Ben thought he was the fucking man. He sacrificed everything for the island, he was the greatest leader of them all, the island was everything. He lived on believing that while it was a choice he regretted, it was the RIGHT choice he had to make.

Suddenly, he sees Widmore being given the exact same choice: betray the island's secrets and give up the fight, or someone will kill his daughter. What does Widmore choose? He chooses his daughter instead of the island or Jacob. What the FUCK? Ben suddenly realized that all this time, if Widmore had been given the same choice, he would have picked Penny over the island. It made him realize that if he was really like the great leader who led the Others before he did, Alex would probably still be alive.

That probably drove him up the wall enough to just end Widmore. Jealousy, outrage, regret, etc. Lots of strong emotions. Widmore had it coming anyway.

 

[Jocchan]

I don't think it's so much that he's dumb (he's obviously pretty conniving). I think it's more that he's arrogant, over confident and headstrong. He brought Sayid back from the dead. Zombie Sayid only exists because of Smokey's power. Sayid has been behaving like a brainwashed automaton ever since. Knowing that, Smokey probably assumed that nobody could break the power of his brainwashing. After all, you're not even supposed to say one single word to Smokey because his ability to manipulate and convince people is legend.

I wasn't serious

 

[faceless007]

This part is all wrong.

He get's on the boat, as he's brought the other Losties there. As soon as he's on the boat, he knows he doesn't want to leave, so he gets off. With the Sub stuff, he's helping the others get on the sub and away, but doesn't plan on getting on. Then Kate gets shot, and he's going to carry her on, to safety. You could tell he was going to get right back off, until Sawyer abrubtly orders the sub to dive.

None of that is him flip flopping his choice, just the events as they unfolded.


He goes back to get Ben, because he feels he can persuade him to do as he says (to kill the Losties, as he assumes he cannot).

Alright, fair points all, I'd forgotten that. I still think it's dumb that Jack got on the freaking boat when he was just going to jump off 5 minutes later, but the others I can buy.

 

[njean777]

Eh, I've maintained that I think that Sawyer is going to go out in a blaze of glory and take some people with him. Take one for the team so to speak. After seeing him last night and how guilty he is over essentially killing Sayid, Jin, Sung, and Lapides I can definitely see him having the motivation to take one for the team. Maybe Jack will figure out how to kill Locke, but he can't do it now because he's bound by the rules. But Sawyer wouldn't be. Who knows. Or it could be Desmond. I just don't think Sawyer is going to make it off the island, basically.

i dont think anybody is gonna make it off the island tbh at this point none of them have nothing to go back to except maybe miles, and claire but even then thats pulling at strings. Claire's baby is safe with her mom and miles earned how his dad was a better person then he was lead to believe.

 

[Blader]

The beginning of this episode was sooo good.

 

[Jocchan]

Here's why I think Ben killed Widmore: because he couldn't take it knowing that Widmore made a different choice than he did. When Alex died, Ben thought he was the fucking man. He sacrificed everything for the island, he was the greatest leader of them all, the island was everything. He lived on believing that while it was a choice he regretted, it was the RIGHT choice he had to make.

Suddenly, he sees Widmore being given the exact same choice: betray the island's secrets and give up the fight, or someone will kill his daughter. What does Widmore choose? He chooses his daughter instead of the island or Jacob. What the FUCK? Ben suddenly realized that all this time, if Widmore had been given the same choice, he would have picked Penny over the island. It made him realize that if he was really like the great leader who led the Others before he did, Alex would probably still be alive.

That probably drove him up the wall enough to just end Widmore. Jealousy, outrage, regret, etc. Lots of strong emotions. Widmore had it coming anyway.

I'd also add that Ben still wanted revenge for Alex, and that he didn't want Locke to get to know secrets that Widmore wouldn't get him to know (Widmore had just said he wouldn't reveal them in front of Ben).

 

[Revolver]

Oh yeah, another thing: when Jacob says he picked them all because they were all flawed and in a dark place, is he freaking omniscient? He went to Sawyer and Kate when they were friggin kids (yes they weren't star students, but did he know where that would lead them?) , and (as far as we know), he didn't even meet Hurley until he left the mental hospital, 3 years after Oceanic 815; and he met Jin and Sun at their wedding, when they were presumably at the happiest point of their relationship.

Yeah, that stuck out to me too. Could he see their futures? If so why not wait to approach them until their lives were completely in shambles? Plus he talks a lot about free will, yet his candidates are people who don't really have anything to go back to anyway. What kind of choice is that?

 

[faceless007]

Jacob doesn't know how to kill Smokey. He even tells them that he hopes it can be done. If he doesn't know, how is he supposed to tell them how to do it?

Read what I wrote; I didn't complain Jacob didn't tell them, I complained that nobody asked.

The order to kill Alex was most likely part of the "secondary protocol" that Keamy knew about but the freighter's captain did not. If killing Alex was against the rules, surely Widmore would have informed Keamy of this, and Keamy wouldn't have. Instead, the secondary protocol ordered Keamy to break the rules.

Fair enough. Hell, even if Keamy broke the rules, it's Widmore's fault for hiring such a mercenary (so to speak) in the first place.

 

[duckroll]

Remember when he tricked everyone into getting into the submarine? And remember when he knew all along that Sawyer was going to stab him in the back? That takes some pretty smart thinking if you ask me. And also, do you remember when he was still a human and he figured out how to get off the island? Yeah, he is REALLY SMART. Definitely not dumb.

Which leads to my next point that it was completely out of character to tell Ben he was going to destroy the island. That was a dumb move.

Remember when everyone on these threads said Sawyer was pulling a long con on Locke from the moment they were in the cave together? Doesn't really take a genius to figure that a guy who has been a conman all his life, could be backstabbing you for his own gain. Seriously, are you crediting that to his intelligence and wit? :lol

As for the submarine plan, it could have failed in many number of ways. It's not a dumb plan, but it's not a particularly elaborate or ingenious plan. It worked because honestly, the Losties are pretty dumb fuckers themselves. Jack could have noticed his bag got switched, Jack could have actually decided not to get in the sub, Sawyer could have trusted Jack and not pulled the wires, Sawyer could have stayed behind to help Claire fight, etc. The fact that the situation worked in his favor has less to do with his brilliance, and more to do with things just working out the way they did.

Sorry, but MIB isn't REALLY SMART to me at all. He has certain advantages over a normal human, like being able to scan memories, being immortal, and having lived for over 2000 years. But when it comes down to planning and how he interacts with other humans, he's just another regular joe.

 

[LM4sure]

Remember when everyone on these threads said Sawyer was pulling a long con on Locke from the moment they were in the cave together? Doesn't really take a genius to figure that a guy who has been a conman all his life, could be backstabbing you for his own gain. Seriously, are you crediting that to his intelligence and wit? :lol

As for the submarine plan, it could have failed in many number of ways. It's not a dumb plan, but it's not a particularly elaborate or ingenious plan. It worked because honestly, the Losties are pretty dumb fuckers themselves. Jack could have noticed his bag got switched, Jack could have actually decided not to get in the sub, Sawyer could have trusted Jack and not pulled the wires, Sawyer could have stayed behind to help Claire fight, etc. The fact that the situation worked in his favor has less to do with his brilliance, and more to do with things just working out the way they did.

Sorry, but MIB isn't REALLY SMART to me at all. He has certain advantages over a normal human, like being able to scan memories, being immortal, and having lived for over 2000 years. But when it comes down to planning and how he interacts with other humans, he's just another regular joe.

:lol

ok gotcha. everyone on the island is dumb, just some are not as dumb so they actually look smart at times. gotcha!

 

[Arment]

:lol

ok gotcha. everyone on the island is dumb, just some are not as dumb so they actually look smart at times. gotcha!

:lol

There's always one. (more than one but that sounded better)

 

[duckroll]

:lol

ok gotcha. everyone on the island is dumb, just some are not as dumb so they actually look smart at times. gotcha!

Do you disagree? Neither of the reasons you listed are particularly great examples of how "REALLY SMART" you make MIB out to be. The plan sorta worked (didn't even work entirely, four people survived including the largest one, and Jin could probably have made it if he wanted to live) but there's nothing brilliant about it. It's not a plan where you watch and go "WOW HE'S SO SMART". Or maybe it is for you, I don't know.

 

[LM4sure]

Do you disagree? Neither of the reasons you listed are particularly great examples of how "REALLY SMART" you make MIB out to be. The plan sorta worked (didn't even work entirely, four people survived including the largest one, and Jin could probably have made it if he wanted to live) but there's nothing brilliant about it. It's not a plan where you watch and go "WOW HE'S SO SMART". Or maybe it is for you, I don't know.

Well my initial point that was aruged against by a couple posters was that it was dumb of smokey to tell Ben he was going to destroy the island. So in that respect, I don't disagree with your position. I wouldn't go so far to say everyone is dumb. Some people are smart; they just make stupid decisions. I would still say MIB is smart. He figured out how to get off the island. All you have to do is spin that wheel!

 

[Anton Sugar]

Yeah, that stuck out to me too. Could he see their futures? If so why not wait to approach them until their lives were completely in shambles? Plus he talks a lot about free will, yet his candidates are people who don't really have anything to go back to anyway. What kind of choice is that?

http://cultural-learnings.com/2010/05/19/lost-what-they-died-for/

Now, there’s a distinct problem with this particular theory: he seems to indicate that he brought them to the island because they were lonely in 2004, but yet we know that Jacob visited many of them long before then. This would imply that he spent his entire life ensuring they would be alone, cursing Hurley to lottery winnings he could never really enjoy and allowing John Locke to be crippled so that he would never achieve true love. He claims to have taken Kate off the list because she became a mother*, but yet Sayid was given no such reprieve when he married Nadia, so can we presume that Jacob killed her in order to justify bringing Sayid back to the island? The remaining candidates don’t have the access to this information, as it’s all scenes we saw back in “The Incident” at the end of last season, but this would seem to indicate that Jacob was not a passive observer who plucked them out of painful adulthoods (although it does offer a nice justification for why every single character on the show has been flawed in a way you only see on TV).

We know that loneliness allows someone to remain a candidate, but what isn’t clear is how far Jacob has gone to force people to remain lonely both on and off the island: did he instruct the Others to kidnap Walt in order to drive Michael to the point where he might murder the woman that Hurley was falling in love with? Jacob isn’t wrong to say that they were all alone when that plane crashed, which is what created such interesting character dynamics as the show went on – however, has Jacob gone so far as to force these people to be alone so that he would ensure the island’s protection should he die? And if so, has that been justified? Jack isn’t really concerned about any of these questions, as he’s to the point where he’s done with fate or coincidence or what have you – instead, he’s going to make a choice, choosing to place himself as the new protector of the island because he believes it to be his destiny.

 

[Veidt]

 

[LM4sure]

Why is it moving up his neck? Is there some meaning to that, or was that a production error?

 

[Anton Sugar]

Also, some thoughts on "Why didn't MIB just threaten him?": http://cultural-learnings.com/2010/05/19/lost-the-morning-after-critics-ponder-what-they-died-for/

We have to go back to the beginning of season three. Hydra Island time. Meeting-Juliet time. Polar-bear-cage time. An interlude at the beginning of the season that was roundly criticized by fans, before and since, as a meaningless diversion, a waste of time. The climax of that arc, you’ll recall, was that Ben was found to have a tumor on his spine, and Jack agreed to operate on him. Agreed to being the operative term.As I recall—and I don’t have the other examples at my fingertips, but there were other occasions when the Others had referred to the need for the Losties to accede to them willingly. And now it seems we know why. The Others, through Ben, and therefore through envoy Richard, had been taking orders (or, at least, guidance) from Jacob. And the principle that they share in common with him is that–however urgent their plans and however devious their means–ultimately they need people to act of their own free will. There are rules.

Not sure, honestly, how consistent this is throughout the series, but something to consider.

 

[Solo]

Production error

 

[Vitet]

Wow that was pretty good after last week mess.

I'm so glad here we're getting the finale only 30 minutes later than in USA. And with no ad breaks

 

[soul creator]

so last night I watched the episode with someone who's only watched up to the midway point of Season 2 (I told her she'd likely be massively lost and spoiled, but she wanted to watch with me anyway). So hilarious :lol

"Who is Ben?"
"WHOA Locke is bad now!" (when he kills Zoe)
"WTF? Who's this kid?" (in reference to Jack's son)
"Hey it's Claire! Wait, what is she doing there with Jack?"
"OHHHHH...is this that parallel universe thing I've heard about?"
"SAWYER'S A COP?!?!"

funny thing is, I don't think she even made the smoke monster = locke connection, even after Richard got hit and Locke walked out 2 seconds later :lol

 

[NimbusD]

This is all dead on. I think the reason so many people ask so many questions about LOST (and generally don't really understand what is going on) is that most people aren't used to a show where everything that a character does is based entirely on the character's motivation, experiences, and beliefs up to that point. LOST requires you to really know the characters, including their histories, in order to understand their motivations and actions.

Other shows just have characters do shit that's out of character and move so quickly that you don't have time to question it (either that or they get canceled for being shitty). LOST has superbly well crafted characters that are fully fleshed out to the point where if you're paying attention you will understand every action they take based on what you've learned about them up to that point.

Sure, as long as you're not talking about the X world, because there, everybody's half retarded.

 

[DoomGyver]

Wow that was pretty good after last week mess.

I'm so glad here we're getting the finale only 30 minutes later than in USA. And with no ad breaks

Fuuu

 

[StrikerObi]

Fair enough. Hell, even if Keamy broke the rules, it's Widmore's fault for hiring such a mercenary (so to speak) in the first place.

Agreed. Keamy is a totally fucking awesome character. One of my favorites. Dude is full blown psycho.

 

[Iceman]

Jacob isn't going to sit everyone down around a campfire and tell them what's up.

I started reading this thread from the beginning. This particular statement from reply 162 I think is kind of funny, in an ironic way. (BTW, I fully support Arment's defense of LOST's storytelling)

 

[duckroll]

Well my initial point that was aruged against by a couple posters was that it was dumb of smokey to tell Ben he was going to destroy the island. So in that respect, I don't disagree with your position. I wouldn't go so far to say everyone is dumb. Some people are smart; they just make stupid decisions. I would still say MIB is smart. He figured out how to get off the island. All you have to do is spin that wheel!

When I say "dumb" I'm not referring to their knowledge or IQ but the more general measure of an action. The losties are obviously not a bunch of uneducated stupid fucks who have no idea what's going on. But they do lots of dumb shit, sometimes because it is in their flawed nature that differs on a character to character basis, and sometimes it's simply a plot device or poorly written story point.

MIB is no different. He's definitely someone who knows how to harness knowledge and play people against each other, sure. But that doesn't mean he's this all-knowing really smart genius being that you make him out to be. It's not entirely out of character for him to just tell a character one thing (regardless of whether it's fact or deception) to influence that character onto his side for the moment, and then later when things change just declare his new intentions openly.

For the record, he has done this before: He told Claire that the Others have her baby, then when plans changed he told her that he had died and just made up something else about leaving the island. Later on after everyone got into the sub except Claire, instead of continuing with his charade of helping her leave the island he just walks off and goes "I'm going to finish what I started." He doesn't really care about whether unimportant people (to him) know his plans or not, he only cares about stuff up until the moment that they no longer matter to him.

 

[MMaRsu]

Posted?

Could be used in the finale thread?

 

[NimbusD]

Maybe people who are saying that the Flash/Sideways is actually the future are right... as much as it would kill me. This is obviously referencing something that hasn't yet happened. At first I just thought it was just from the nuke or something, but the fact that they brought it back and (pretty much) in the same spot...

I think Jack's gonna get shot in the neck on the island or something. But then it's weird that that only happens to him in X-land (but that's the type of inconsistency that's within the range of tolerance of consistency in LOST)