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LttP Dark Souls II: Scholar of the First Sin: Why is the opening so bad?

Kinsei

Banned
So I played a bit of vanilla DS2 back when it first released and just wasn't feeling the game so I dropped it. If I recall correctly I never even made it to the first boss. I was never going to touch the game again but I had some left over X-mas money in gift cards after getting Hitman and Shantae so I figured why not give it another shot? After all even if I still end up disliking it, I'm not wasting my own money.

Playing it now, it's not hard to see why I dropped it. The opening areas of the game are just awful. The layout of the Forest of Fallen Giants is pretty good with lots of side areas leading to some nice items, but the enemies are pretty boring. The bandit and soldier hollows are fine as your basic early game mooks just like their equivalents in the first game, but the turtle men and the cyclops monsters are dreadfully dull to fight. Then there's the boss. Oh boy was that thing awful. If it really is the last of the giants then it's no wonder they went extinct. The first real bosses of Demon's Souls and Dark Souls both taught the player something about the combat that they might not have known but I'm struggling to think of anything the first boss of DS2 could teach a player. Hit the big slow thing until it dies? That's not really something you have to teach people.

The combat wasn't all bad though. Oddly enough it truly shone during moments that I absolutely hated in Dark Souls and Demon's Souls, fighting multiple enemies at once. I hated it at first as I'm more accustomed to only fighting one or two enemies unless I fuck up, but once I learned how to fight this way it became a lot of fun. I think it also helps that I'm not using a shield. Spacing has become even more important and I have to keep a lot more in mind while attacking. It kinda reminds me of soloing multi monster arena missions in Monster Hunter.

This is pretty embarrassing, but I never figured out how to unhollow until after I beat the first boss. In hindsight it's super fucking obvious, but I thought you had to use an item at a bonfire to do it ala Dark Souls 1. I thought it was really weird that they would expect new players to get through the entirety of the Forest of Fallen Giants (Which is much harder than 1-1 in Demon's Souls before anyone brings that up) with half health. It turns out they didn't and I'm a dummy.

I'm actually not a fan of hollowing in this game. I get that they had to do something to make being human appealing as there was really no reason to reverse hollowing in the first Dark Souls (Hell I played the entire game as a hollow my first run through and as such I never knew NPC summons were a thing until after I went online to see what things I missed in order to do them in NG+) but I feel that the system in DS2 is too extreme. The people that are going to be effected by it the most are the ones that probably won't be able to get through an area at half health if/when they run out of human effigies. I feel like a system more similar to soul form in Demon' Souls would have been better. A health reduction down to 75% would still give new and bad players an incentive to become human again, but the increase to their damage and higher stealth would give them a better fighting chance than if they ran out of effigies.

So after I beat the first boss I used the key only to find out that I need a different item to continue that way and had to teleport back to Majula. That's another problem I have with this game. In Dark Souls the way the world was connected greatly added to the sense of adventure. I'll never forget my first time activating the elevator in the Undead Parish that led back to Firelink, or opening the aqueduct gate via the depths and realizing where I was. Just like with hollow form, it feels like DS2 2 is trying to combine Demon's Souls and Dark Souls but it hasn't really worked very well so far (with one exception that I'll get to later).

So the next area I tackled was Heide's Tower of Flame and I can't believe how shit it was. The "level" was literally a pretty hallway with only like 6-7 enemies. Said enemies were also incredibly dull to fight one on one. This is where fighting multiple enemies finally clicked with me. The area near the and where you had to fight two enemies at once was really fun. It's a shame the rest of the encounters weren't like that. I was really shocked when I went through the fog door and saw that I was at the boss. Now you might think that the developers would use the fact that the level is incredibly short and that all of the enemies are easily avoidable to make the boss difficult. They didn't. To the Dragon Rider's credit I do think it could have been great as the first boss. The presence of easily avoidable bottomless pits is a great way to teach players to keep their surroundings in mind at all times kinda like the crossbowmen in the Taurus Demon fight. Now this could theoretically be someone's first boss, but what player new to the series isn't going to immediately turn around at the first sight of the big enemies in the area?

After I made it through there I naturally went forward (after a little detour to level up of course) to No Man's Wharf and holy shit this place is so damn good. The level design here was top notch. As soon as you enter that boat catches your eye and gives you both a destination as well as a way to reorient yourself if you get turned around. Intelligently placed traps and ambushes that really add to the level design. Coming down a flight of stairs and realizing I managed to sneak around an ambush to get the jump on the enemies was such a great feeling. I managed to take out three of the four vikings in the room before the last one was even alerted to my presence. It also had the perfect amount of time between the bonfire and the shortcut (unlike the one linking the second bonfire in the forest to the boss). When I kicked over the bridge to get back to the bonfire I was quite literally on my last legs. I had used up all five of my estus flasks and I only had about a quarter of my life left. Those moments are some of my favorite in the series so I'm glad DS2 finally gave it to me. There's also a second shortcut that serves no purpose other than to help people like me (I.E idiots) in case they miss the super fucking obvious chain they need to pull in order in order to get the ship to pull into the harbor. They didn't have to put that in there, but it just goes to show how well thought out this area is.

The combat in this area is great too. not only is there a nice variety of enemies, but they're all fun to fight. I just wish they game would have pitted you against one of the long arm enemies that are afraid of the light along with a different type of enemy instead of only having them grouped together. I also would have liked to see the assassins fight alongside some other enemies. Maybe early on in the area they could pit you against a single viking and then have an assassin drop in behind you. It would have served as a great introduction to the enemy type. Sadly the boss was incredibly easy just like the last two. I was expecting there to be a second form where they split apart like a reverse Ornstein and Smough, but it never came. At least this boss made me use an estus flask which is more than I can say for the other two bosses that I've fought.

After that I made it to the bonfire at the star of the Lost Bastille and stopped playing to write this.

I really hope that No Man's Wharf is indicative of the quality of the rest of the game.

There being a sex change coffin in the game is weird. I get why it's in ther but it's still weird.

The silvercat ring not letting me get down that giant hole in Majula sucks. I wasted all of those souls for nothing T_T.

I haven't decided what area I'm going to do next. Lost Bastille does sound interesting but I'm also incredibly curious about what's in that tower by Majula. The one you need to depetrify a woman to get into.

I'd appreciate it if no one spoiled areas that I haven't been to yet. I love not knowing what's coming up on my first playthrough of a Soulsborne game.
 
The first few hours sucked for me because of the ADP stat and not having a lot of Estus flasks. I didn't find the layouts that bad but the game overall does get better after you get over those two obstacles.

Also the silver cat ring does let you get down the hole, not sure what the issue is there? It's been a while.

Also I hated No Man's Wharf lol, there are definitely much better areas than that.
 
DS2 is an alright game that does some good things but also gets plenty wrong. If you want a more "traditional" souls experience you should check out Dark Souls III which is much closer to Dark Souls 1.

The levels have some ups and downs in DS2 but the best levels in the game are probably DLC.
 

Kinsei

Banned
The first few hours sucked for me because of the ADP stat and not having a lot of Estus flasks. I didn't find the layouts that bad but the game overall does get better after you get over those two obstacles.

Also the silver cat ring does let you get down the hole, not sure what the issue is there? It's been a while.

Also I hated No Man's Wharf lol, there are definitely much better areas than that.

That's odd. I landed on the top plank but I still died. I'll try again the next time I play.

DS2 is an alright game that does some good things but also gets plenty wrong. If you want a more "traditional" souls experience you should check out Dark Souls III which is much closer to Dark Souls 1.

The levels have some ups and downs in DS2 but the best levels in the game are probably DLC.

Hearing that the DLC areas are good is nice to hear. I absolutely love the DLC areas in Dark Souls and Bloodborne so I hope that it will be the same with this games DLC.
 

Nere

Member
Unfortunately other areas aren't as well thought as No Man's Wharf, although they are much better than Heidi's Flame.

You can jump down the hole with the Silvercat ring, maybe you couldn't cause you already half health so even a tiny fall kills you.

As Killer Queen said the DLCs have by far the best areas in the game and some of the best in the whole series.
 

Sushi Nao

Member
There's a ring in Heide's that does the same thing as the Cling Ring in Demon's Souls.

If you're at full health and have the Silvercat ring, you should survive. Might have to level VIT a bit.
 

Kinsei

Banned
One question before I play again. Do illusory walls work differently in this game? I keep seeing messages that say there's one in front of it but attacking does nothing. I know people like to be assholes and leave fake messages but the obscene amount of people that have rated these messages makes me think that I'm doing something wrong.
 

SRTtoZ

Member
One question before I play again. Do illusory walls work differently in this game? I keep seeing messages that say there's one in front of it but attacking does nothing. I know people like to be assholes and leave fake messages but the obscene amount of people that have rated these messages makes me think that I'm doing something wrong.

Mash A or X depending on which controller you're using. Its not like DS3 where rolling into the walls unveils them. Its one of the buttons, fuck I can't remember. Not sure why I said BB first, since BB doenst really have illusionary walls besides some in the chalice dungeons but they open like normal doors anyway. Oh and there are a ton of fake illusionary wall messages but yea you'll find a ton eventually just by running along the walls and mashing A or X.

I edited the post Kinsei so try this instead. Sorry I'm drinking already.
 

Kinsei

Banned
Mash Square or X depending on which controller you're using. Its not like bloodborne where rolling into the walls unveils them. Its one of the buttons, fuck I can't remember.

I never would have figured that out. I didn't realize I was playing an FPS from the 90's haha.
 

Lork

Member
I'm actually not a fan of hollowing in this game. I get that they had to do something to make being human appealing as there was really no reason to reverse hollowing in the first Dark Souls (Hell I played the entire game as a hollow my first run through and as such I never knew NPC summons were a thing until after I went online to see what things I missed in order to do them in NG+) but I feel that the system in DS2 is too extreme. The people that are going to be effected by it the most are the ones that probably won't be able to get through an area at half health if/when they run out of human effigies. I feel like a system more similar to soul form in Demon' Souls would have been better. A health reduction down to 75% would still give new and bad players an incentive to become human again, but the increase to their damage and higher stealth would give them a better fighting chance than if they ran out of effigies.
The hollowing system in DS2 is more lenient than Demon's in just about every possible way. Health is gradually reduced to a minimum of 50% after a number of deaths rather than instantly going there after a single one, human effigies are exponentially more common than the equivalent in DeS, the small white soapstone makes it easier than ever to become human via multiplayer, and the ring that cuts the penalty to 75% is easier to find and only takes up 1 of 4 slots as opposed to 1 of 2. It sounds like your judgement is being clouded by nostalgia here.
 

JMY86

Member
SotFS is a big improvement over vanilla DS II. The game has some warts for sure but it does not deserve all the hate it receives IMO...
 

epmode

Member
I dropped Dark Souls 2 as soon as I noticed it stopped respanwing enemies I killed too many times. I wish there was a way to disable that.
 
Don't go in that tower with the petrified woman just yet, if you only just beat No Man's Warf then you're underleveled for that area. You're best off to make your way through The Lost Bastille for now.

I just started play SotFS for the first time not too long ago and the level designs are shit compared to Dark Souls 1, not gonna spoil anything for you tho OP. One thing that I'm having trouble grasping though is just how this game is connected to Dark Souls 1 aside from the curse and the Old Dragonrider.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I feel like a system more similar to soul form in Demon' Souls would have been better. A health reduction down to 75% would still give new and bad players an incentive to become human again, but the increase to their damage and higher stealth would give them a better fighting chance than if they ran out of effigies.
There's a ring out there, you get it fairly early on, that keeps your health reduction capped at 75%.

(Also, what Lork said, haha. I would also recommend using the Small White Soapstone for short coop sessions, you can get revived without killing the boss and you get a Smooth & Silky Stone for your troubles, yay. xD)

So after I beat the first boss I used the key only to find out that I need a different item to continue that way and had to teleport back to Majula.
Huh? The key you got from beating the Last Giant opens like,
3 doors. Some of them will eventually be dead end for now, but one of them continues on the game
...

The silvercat ring not letting me get down that giant hole in Majula sucks. I wasted all of those souls for nothing T_T.
Weird, it should work. Did you land on the first plank?

Glad you're enjoying it. I don't agree that the Forest sucks, I think it's a greatly designed area, but I'm glad you're enjoying No Man's Wharf, that's one of my favourite places in the series. Lost Bastille is awesomely designed too and has a wicked boss that you're gonna love. I'll say no more. :)

It is refreshing to see someone enjoy the multi-enemy encounters, for once. Everyone would whine so hard about those, instead of trying to figure out how to handle the encounters, lol.

I dropped Dark Souls 2 as soon as I noticed it stopped respanwing enemies I killed too many times. I wish there was a way to disable that.
....There is.
 
The start is the worst bit of the game. FOFG is an ugly area, and is much tougher than the starting areas in Dark Souls or Demon's Souls. DS2 gives you a bit of a baptism of fire. If you soldier on through the first few zones, it does get better.
 

Opa-Pa

Member
Join the Covenant of Champions in Majula, and yes it applies to both.

Doesn't that lower damage done to enemies and increase damage you receive too? I thought of joining to disable that system too but it's basically hard mode so no thanks lol.
 

SRTtoZ

Member
It really is my favorite Souls game not including BB. With the DLC included (like Scholars), there is just so much game, so many different areas, different environments and the build diversity is the best in the series. I think DS3 plays better control wise but it lacks in so many other areas. The beginning is a bit of a drag but I feel like that goes away once you know the game back and front so you know exactly what stats to level up first (adp) and you know where to get some of the great beginner weapons and stuff. Be sure to try different builds like a sorcery build or a full on hexer.
 

SRTtoZ

Member
I think it also disables coop right? I remember joining that covenant once and I thought the game was dead because I couldn't find anyone to play with. Little did I know I joined the hard covenant :)

But yea its definitely one of the ways to get enemies to respawn if you don't want to use Bonfire Ascetics.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I think it also disables coop right? I remember joining that covenant once and I thought the game was dead because I couldn't find anyone to play with. Little did I know I joined the hard covenant :)

But yea its definitely one of the ways to get enemies to respawn if you don't want to use Bonfire Ascetics.
Yes, it does. The only thing that bothers me somewhat about the covenant is that it even disables you being summoned. I don't mind that it disables summons, if anything, it makes sense; it's hard mode, it shouldn't be cheesable via coop/summons, but I wish it'd at least still let you drop your sign for others.

I guess they didn't want you to be able to revive that easily and forced you to use your human effigies judiciously, heh. Even harsher is that defeated invaders (NPC or players) don't even drop effigies unlike in normal mode, which you could hoard, but they drop Awestones instead (which you need to level up in the covenant). So you have to manage your effigies carefully.

It's fun, though. I did a full* Champion playthrough both in vanilla DS2 and Scholar, and it's by far the hardest game of the series when played that way. I had to hoard Brightbugs and save them for some of the nastier bosses.

* Except the Abyss dungeons/Darklurker, of course, since you are required to join the Dark covenant to play through it, and a quick pause to join the Belfry covenant to farm for some titanite ^^ invasions were getting rare as hell now though, even on PS4. :(
 

Lork

Member
Doesn't that lower damage done to enemies and increase damage you receive too? I thought of joining to disable that system too but it's basically hard mode so no thanks lol.
Yes, but the only reasons the respawn would even come up under normal circumstances is if you're going through some ocd farming routine or if you're really struggling against a particular area/boss (and in that case I'd think it would be welcome). If epmode just wants to farm basic enemies I don't think they would mind too much if those enemies were a little harder.
 
I dropped Dark Souls 2 as soon as I noticed it stopped respanwing enemies I killed too many times. I wish there was a way to disable that.
Meh, it's 12 times and without it I don't think I'd ever be able to defeat the Fume Knight. Plus strengthening bonfires or joining the covenant of Champions disables that.
 

DirtyCase

Member
I enjoyed my time with Dark Souls 2, not as much as 1, 3, or Bloodborne. I am still working my way through Demons Soul.

I heard how good the Dlc for 2 is so recently bought the Ps4 SotFF edition and am looking forward to the dlc areas.
 
Meh, it's 12 times and without it I don't think I'd ever be able to defeat the Fume Knight. Plus strengthening bonfires or joining the covenant of Champions disables that.

I don't remember there being any enemies you had to fight on the way to fume Knight?

I really loved dark souls 2 but I'd probably agree that forest and heides are a bit weak as areas. The game world is also less intricately connected than in the first game. However I think the quality of the middle and latter areas, and the dlc, is incredible. The game doesn't feel like it was rushed to be finished either like dark souls 1 did with the post anor londo areas being complete trash.
 
Dark Souls II is such a strange thing in that it both has the series' lowest lows in the form of general base game level design, enemy placements, and bosses, but also some of it's hinvest highs in the form of its dlc, especially Crown of the Old Iron King, which has some of the best level design and two of the best bossed in the entire series.
 

Sushi Nao

Member
I dropped Dark Souls 2 as soon as I noticed it stopped respanwing enemies I killed too many times. I wish there was a way to disable that.

That was a weird part of the experience for me. I first noticed it at the first FotFG bonfire when I stopped to grind out souls for a little bit. That lasted for about 5 minutes before I realized something was seriously different.

I ended up kind of fascinated by what it forced in terms of gameplay:

- it made you be super careful with your souls because they were always limited

- it made item farming and availability so much more of an issue, and rusted coins more precious

- it pushed you into small soapstone co-op for the free souls, but the people who summoned you would often get weird about you killing "their" enemies

- it did make boss runs easier. I didn't feel that this was particularly necessary in DS2... the runs were never that tough. It's odd that an, in many ways, overall harder game - faster shooting archers, slower movement, mobs of enemies - would be tempered by such a sweeping design choice.

Narratively, I found it made this particular cycle feel somehow more bleak, like even the most dangerous parts of the world were fading away.
 

Micael

Member
I got to ask, is it just me that thinks the quality of DS2 DLC is massively overstated, and probably being exalted by the quantity over quality approach of DS2.
Because really on the bosses alone DS2 DLC is a big disappointment (well not by DS2 standards)

You have a bit of a recycling of DS2 final boss, you get another dragon because dragons are cool or something, and you get a bit of a recycle of NPCs that get used in a gank boss fight.
Then you have Smelter demon aka that demon you already fought but hey look its blue now so its different, and you have fume knight and sir alonne which are actually proper bosses.
Finally we get to Aava which is pretty ok despite the stupid decision of putting the boss accessible before you get the item you need if you are doing it for the first time (or aren't a speedrunner basically), but even then it still feels a bit like doing another sif style of fight, you get burnt ivory king which is a bit more set piece than boss fight, even if the boss fight itself isn't bad, and then you get lud and zallen aka we are reusing the boss we just introduced but we are making it a gank fight at the end of a long treck, because you totally won't die a few times here.

So really I genuinely do not get why DS2 DLC gets so praised, when I found it to just be so flawed.
 

saturnine

Member
The start is the worst bit of the game. FOFG is an ugly area, and is much tougher than the starting areas in Dark Souls or Demon's Souls. DS2 gives you a bit of a baptism of fire. If you soldier on through the first few zones, it does get better.

Demon's Souls won't let you level up until you go through an entire level and defeat the first boss.
Dark Souls drops you at Firelink Shrine with three possible paths, two of them very hard to survive and leading to dead ends. When you finally take the correct path, you're greeted to twink city central.
Dark Souls 3 won't let you level up until you defeat a pretty hard first boss, especially for a beginner.
Bloodborne throws a labyrinthine level at you and hides its level up system behind an obscure requirement, which most likely means that you will have to die to a boss beforehand.

I mean, FotFG isn't exactly a walk in the park, but it's easily the most fair and balanced first level in the series.
 

gogosox82

Member
I got to ask, is it just me that thinks the quality of DS2 DLC is massively overstated, and probably being exalted by the quantity over quality approach of DS2.
Because really on the bosses alone DS2 DLC is a big disappointment (well not by DS2 standards)

You have a bit of a recycling of DS2 final boss, you get another dragon because dragons are cool or something, and you get a bit of a recycle of NPCs that get used in a gank boss fight.
Then you have Smelter demon aka that demon you already fought but hey look its blue now so its different, and you have fume knight and sir alonne which are actually proper bosses.
Finally we get to Aava which is pretty ok despite the stupid decision of putting the boss accessible before you get the item you need if you are doing it for the first time (or aren't a speedrunner basically), but even then it still feels a bit like doing another sif style of fight, you get burnt ivory king which is a bit more set piece than boss fight, even if the boss fight itself isn't bad, and then you get lud and zallen aka we are reusing the boss we just introduced but we are making it a gank fight at the end of a long treck, because you totally won't die a few times here.

So really I genuinely do not get why DS2 DLC gets so praised, when I found it to just be so flawed.

I think the Ivory king dlc is trash honestly. But the first two dlcs are really strong. Some of the best level and encounter design in the series and great bosses besides Elena. You also get some new weapons and armor sets. What's not to like about it?
 
All these recent DS2 threads are reminding me I haven't replayed it in a while, I'm getting nostalgia pangs for popping life gems. I suppose I'll endure the changes made in SOTFS for the sake of playing it on PS4 rather than PS3.
 

horkrux

Member
I think the Ivory king dlc is trash honestly. But the first two dlcs are really strong. Some of the best level and encounter design in the series and great bosses besides Elena. You also get some new weapons and armor sets. What's not to like about it?

Why is it trash? I even got Boletaria vibes from it dammit. It was easily the best DLC of the bunch for me. Iron King on the other hand was just a chore to play. The tower was downright tiresome to explore. 'Have I been here, have I taken that elevator yet? Where is the last statue? Oh god oh god oh god.'
 
There is a covenant that disable that. It's called the Covenant of Champions and it's in Majula.
Slightly worth noting, it does increase the difficulty a little bit, not sure on the numbers but it's like kicking the game into NG+-ish while you're in the covenant. IIRC it was also patched in later on, the covenant didn't launch where it turned off despawning, it was purely about the difficulty kicking up a notch initially - I think they might've added in the despawning with the SOTFS content like the Agape Ring etc(?)



I don't remember there being any enemies you had to fight on the way to fume Knight?
Yeah there aren't, it's a mega short run from the bonfire to the boss fog. Those big enemies that pop out of the ground are way too slow to catch up if they are even out of the ground whilst you're still close enough to aggro them.
 

Kinsei

Banned
It turns out the reason I wasn;t able to survive the fall was because my vitality stat was too low. I pumped a couple of points into it and I was able to just barely survive the fall to the first plank. The crypt is pretty cool although I didn't spend too much time in there. I made it to the bonfire in front of the fog door and decided to teleport out. There sure were a lto of holes for Pharros' lockstone in there. I sure hope there's not a finite amount of them in the game. I' now starting to get worried that I might have wasted a few.

Afterwards I went back to Majula in order to take the other path down the giant hole. The Gutter seems like a combo of 5-1 and Blighttown so I left as soon as I reached the bonfire.

I then headed back to the Forest of Fallen Giants in order to explore, and holy crap I missed a lot in this place. I get the feeling that the areas I can;t reach are accessed via the third bonfire that I found, but I have no clue what I'm meant to do with the dead giant (Please don't tell me, I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually).

As you might have guessed I ended up stumbling upon the Pursuer while I was exploring and that was one hell of a fight. Again it wasn't very hard (although it was a huge step up from the last three bosses) but it was an exhilarating fight that kept me on my toes the entire time. My only real complaint was that the hitbox on his grabbing stab attack that inflicts curse seemed a little off. During my first attempt I could have sworn it missed me yet I was sucked into the blade.

Since the path then leads to the Lost Bastille, I guess No Man's Wharf is technically optional, huh? I wonder if there's anyone that made it through the game without ever setting foot in there.

I decided I wasn't quite ready to make any forward progress so I went and found both the Shaded Woods and Huntsmans Copse. I really liked the ambush in the tower that led to the Shaded Woods. Having to duck and weave around all of the enemies while waiting for the door to open so you can gain the advantage via the high ground was really fun.

I guess the next time I play I'll finally do Lost Bastille since the game seems to really want me to go there.
 

Opa-Pa

Member
OP I know The Gutter looks like Blight Town 2.0 but I thought it was pretty cool, one of the most interesting areas in the game. Same for No Man's Wharf (not sure if you're quite ready for the first tho). And I agree that The Pursuer is pretty cool, but his grab attack is indeed kinda BS.

I got to ask, is it just me that thinks the quality of DS2 DLC is massively overstated, and probably being exalted by the quantity over quality approach of DS2.

Seriously, the DLC areas are pretty much the only thing I had expectations for when starting the game and they were... Just okay. They're definitely a step above the main game generally, but not by much IMO and I don't enjoy DS2 very much as is so that's not saying much.

Save for a couple of clever gimmicks and two interesting bosses, I found them pretty whatever and not essential at all... Then again maybe they're better in vanilla? I dunno.
 

Lumination

'enry 'ollins
What people haven't explicitly mentioned about the Covenant of Champions is that not being able to summon means you can't complete the NPC questlines either since some require being summoned to advance the line.
 

DaciaJC

Gold Member
I got to ask, is it just me that thinks the quality of DS2 DLC is massively overstated, and probably being exalted by the quantity over quality approach of DS2.
Because really on the bosses alone DS2 DLC is a big disappointment (well not by DS2 standards)

You have a bit of a recycling of DS2 final boss, you get another dragon because dragons are cool or something, and you get a bit of a recycle of NPCs that get used in a gank boss fight.
Then you have Smelter demon aka that demon you already fought but hey look its blue now so its different, and you have fume knight and sir alonne which are actually proper bosses.
Finally we get to Aava which is pretty ok despite the stupid decision of putting the boss accessible before you get the item you need if you are doing it for the first time (or aren't a speedrunner basically), but even then it still feels a bit like doing another sif style of fight, you get burnt ivory king which is a bit more set piece than boss fight, even if the boss fight itself isn't bad, and then you get lud and zallen aka we are reusing the boss we just introduced but we are making it a gank fight at the end of a long treck, because you totally won't die a few times here.

So really I genuinely do not get why DS2 DLC gets so praised, when I found it to just be so flawed.

No, you're definitely not alone on this. Fully half (at least!) of the bosses across all three DLCs are mediocre or just plain junk, and while the first two DLCs have some pretty fantastic level design, Crown of the Iron King in particular suffers from some poorly thought out encounters. I think Crown of the Ivory King is rather crap all around, easily the worst DLC in the series.
 

Lork

Member
The problem with the Pursuer's grab attack is an animation glitch. In all likelihood you did actually get hit by it, but then your character was allowed to finish rolling, then play the "stagger" animation, and then get sucked into the animation, rather than immediately being impaled like they should.
 

Kinsei

Banned
I just finished playing for the night and I must say that both the Ruin Sentinels and the Lost Sinner were amazing boss fights. I'll write up my full thoughts on them tomorrow since I'm really tired right now (it's 3AM here).
 

Neff

Member
DSII starts off shit and gets dramatically better as it goes for some reason. And depending on whether you're playing SotFS and how you do it, more or less culminates with the DLC chapters which are perhaps the best areas of any Souls game to date.

In that regard, you've always got something to look forward to, which is why DSII for me is always a great replay game.

Ruin Sentinels and the Lost Sinner were amazing boss fights.

Yep, some of my favourites.
 

Strings

Member
The start is the worst bit of the game. FOFG is an ugly area, and is much tougher than the starting areas in Dark Souls or Demon's Souls. DS2 gives you a bit of a baptism of fire. If you soldier on through the first few zones, it does get better.

I dunno, there are so many other low points. Shrine of Amana, Dragon Aerie, Black Gulch and Iron Keep all really suck. They're fairly pretty, but the encounters are annoying at best.
 

gogosox82

Member
Why is it trash? I even got Boletaria vibes from it dammit. It was easily the best DLC of the bunch for me. Iron King on the other hand was just a chore to play. The tower was downright tiresome to explore. 'Have I been here, have I taken that elevator yet? Where is the last statue? Oh god oh god oh god.'

Everything about it is annoying as fuck. Its annoying that they put a boss at the beginning but he's invisible so you have to go through the level to get one damn item to fight him. Its annoying that they make you go through the level twice. Its annoying that they have cool looking boss but you have to fight ads for 5 minutes before the fight even starts. Also, it seems like those ads are there primarily for grinding for those damn loyce souls which is also annoying and did I mention how shitty the drop rates are? Good god you have to farm for hours just to the damn things. Fuck Maldron the assassin. The co op area is by far the worse one and then you just fight a reskinned boss expect there are two of them now. Only thing that is redeemable about this dlc is that that fist weapon that lets you do hadoukens. You don't really need another greatsword despite how good loyce and charred loyce greatswords are. The game has plenty of greatswords. Not having one isn't going to kill you.

edit: decided to spolier everything as I didn't want to ruin it for op.
 

Kinsei

Banned
Before heading to Lost Bastille I ended up making one last detour. I was incredibly curious how I managed to miss a ring at Heide's since it was pretty much a straight path so I decided to head back there. I had intended on doing that the last time I played, but I got distracted by Huntsman's Copse. So it turns out the things I thought were statues are actually enemies and I immediately regretted not grabbing the ring my first time through. Not only are these white soldiers the toughest enemies I've fought so far, but instead of being able to take them at my own pace I now had to deal with them alongside the big guys. These white soldiers are the first, and so far only. enemies that have made me miss having a shield. They seem like they'd be incredibly easy if I could parry. I did make it past them after a few tries and grabbed that ring (although I'll probably never use it as the ones I'm wearing currently benefit me far more IMO).

Lost Bastille was a fun area. It was mostly focused on combat, but there was still a good amount of exploration unlike Heide's. I was genuinely surprised when I saw that pursuers are regular enemies so quickly. I'm certainly not complaining though as I find them incredibly fun to fight. I ended up encountering three during my time in this area and killed two of them. As a pure melee build I'm genuinely wondering how I'll be able to kill the third. If it was just a pursuer and the dogs I think I could do it, but those crossbowmen up on the wooden platforms make things a lot more difficult. If only I could snipe them before the pursuer spawned. I made it to Sinner's Rise without much trouble and then immediately teleported to the bonfire that I opened up after being carried by the eagle to see what I missed. It wasn't much but it did let me fight the third pursuer I found in this area so it was totally worth it.

Before continuing on to Sinner's Rise I took a quick detour back to Heide's Tower in order to depetrify the statue blocking a path near the entrance to No Man's Wharf. I felt this was worth mentioning because the mammoth man is really cool. I can;t wait until I reach the area where it's a common enemy.

Sinner's Rise was incredibly short with barely any enemies so I'm guessing it's meant to be the equivalent of an arch demon stage from Demon's Souls. I definitely like it a lot better than said arch demon stages though since there was still an actual challenge to overcome before reaching the boss. Seeing that flexile sentries are now regular enemies threw me for a loop, although in hindsight it shouldn't have seeing as I had been fighting pursuers to get here. It was really cool to see a fairly easy boss become much more difficult just by the simple inclusion of water. I get the feeling that I was meant to run past the thing and duck into one of the side rooms in order to get away but I was stubborn and killed the thing.

The build up to the Lost Sinner was amazing. That bridge leading to what I assume is a massive solitary confinement cell was perfect in letting you know that shit was going down. That build up was totally worth it too. Lost Sinner has not only continued the trend of every boss being better than the last, it also completely blows the boss fight against a pursuer (my old favorite) completely out of the water. The entire fight was like a dance with the two of us alternating between attacking and dodging. It felt like every hit truly mattered and that I was on the brink of death at all times. I had found the parrying dagger earlier and the boss seems like it would be petty easy to parry, but I was just having so much fun dodging and counterattacking that the thought of using it never crossed my mind until the fight was over. I managed to take the boss out on my first try by the skin of my teeth and I felt like I was on top of the world.

Naturally the next thing I decided to do after this was to drop into hell. I went back to the second bonfire at the forest and dropped into the fire pit with the giant lizards. This was an incredibly stupid idea but I did manage to get some items including a key that looks very important. Judging by it's picture in the items screen I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the door I need to use it on isn't a regular door that I've already passed. This thing looks like it opens some huge door that I imagine would have stuck out in my mind. Since there was no way to get back up without dying I sadly had to leave my souls down there. Thankfully I only had like 3k so it wasn't a big deal.

I then decided to use the branch I got from beating the Lost Sinner to go through another path in Lost Bastille. I was wondering why there wasn't a boss before I hit Sinner's Rise so I was naturally very curious about where this side area led to. I am so glad I decided to check this place out as I now have yet another new favorite boss, the Ruin Sentinels. First of all, I love the platform you start the fight on. It's such a small thing (both literally and figuratively) but it adds so much to the fight. The game has been very good so far about having you fight big enemies solo before pitting two or more at you and this fight is no different. By letting you fight and kill one of the bosses on the platform before the other two aggro totally avoids the need to learn the bosses attacks on the fly while three are all coming for you at once. By doing this they eliminate the worse part of the Ornstein and Smough fight, the learning hump. Now don't get me wrong I really enjoy the O&S fight and fully believe that it's one of the stand out moments of DS, but the initial few attempts were dreadful.

So you learn how to fight them and kill the first one. You drop down all ready to take on the other two with your knowledge of their attacks and then the game throws a curveball at you (literally!) by turning one of the sentinels into Captain America and having it throw it's shield at you. I fucking love this as it immediately knocks the wind out of your sails and adds an interesting dynamic to the fight. Now instead of fighting two defensive sentinels like the first one you fought, you have to fight a defensive one and an offensive one. While it doesn't gain any new moves (that I saw anyway), the new speed difference between the two is enough to keep you on your toes.

Oh and that music. It is the first time I actually noticed the music during a boss fight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz1_3az6Hgs

I stopped playing once I made it to the bonfire right after them.

This game just keeps getting better and better. I'm really glad that I decided to give it another chance.
 

DemWalls

Member
Man, I think the Lost Sinner fight is pretty forgettable with the torches lit. Too bad SotFS made it basically impossible to miss the key.
 

Kinsei

Banned
I'm glad that I found the blacksmith at Lost Bastille, but I don't think I'll eb using him any time soon. All of the new attributes I can add to my scimitar would lower it's dexterity scaling. That seems like a poor trade-off to me.

Had I known that fog gate in the tomb lead to a boss I would have gone through it as soon as I found it. The boss itself was pretty bad. I was really expecting some sort of second phase with a giant rat or something but no, that was it. The most obvious comparison is with the Celestial Emissary from Bloodborne, but I don't think that was intended to be a boss. It was there as a fake out so that some people wouldn't find Ebrietas.

The covenant that you get after you beat the boss seems neat but on my first playthrough I don't go out of my way to do any PvP or co-op so it's pretty useless to me. At least I got a trophy!

Since I had found two ways into The Gutter I decided to do that area next. It was a pretty good area. Just like in 5-1 of Demon's Souls, the combat wasn't that hard outside of a few enemies (giant depraved ones in DeS and the mole dogs here) but the level design added an extra challenge. One little touch I loved was all of the broken trap statues. It really helped to show how decayed this place really was. One thing I didn't like was the lack of braziers. This would have been the perfect place to bring back the torch mechanic, but they didn't. Is it ever going to come back or will it remain forgotten outside of the tutorial and No Man's Wharf?

As soon as I reached the bonfire at the beginning of the Black Gulch I noped my way out of there. I wasn't sure if toxic was in the game, but that place just screamed toxic. I decided that I would take this chance to go and explore a bit more. I rescued the sorcerer from LB and got myself a pretty sweet warped sword. It's not more powerful than my scimitar at the moment but with it's high dex scaling I bet it will end up outclassing it after a few upgrades.

I then headed back to Heide's in an attempt to get my parrying timing down. Now you're going to laugh at me, but this is when I discovered the dragon. You all probably thought I saw the dragon, left, and then just never mentioned it in my OP. I didn't. Feel free to laugh at me. I killed the dragon and headed through the fog door to see... Ornstein! That was a cool little secret for fans of the original and I imagine that it would be a nice difficult fight for newcomers. Sadly I've fought him so many time that I was never in any real threat of dying.

You'd think killing both a dragon and a hollowed(?) Ornstein would prove my worth but the jerk in the cathedral won't let me join the covenant. I guess I'll just keep coming back periodically throughout the game to see if he'll let me join or not.

I couldn't put off the Black Gulch forever so I headed down there to discover my favorite area of the game (so far) from a visual standpoint. The area itself wasn't remotely a challenge but the designs of the enemies and the look of the area itself was so good that I didn't care. The same went with the boss fight. The actual fight was a huge step down from the Lost sinner but the arena and boss design was so cool that I still had a blast taking it down. I forgot to equip my repair powder and I was too scared to open my menu mid fight so I ended up having to poke the boss to death with my parrying dagger.

So now not only have I taken out half of the major bosses in the game, I have also found the entrance to the Sunken King DLC! Now I just gotta figure out how to open the door.

I was finally invaded by another player! I ended up walking away the victor.

I think I'm gonna head to the Shaded Woods next.

Man, I think the Lost Sinner fight is pretty forgettable with the torches lit. Too bad SotFS made it basically impossible to miss the key.

What torches?
 
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