It builds the world much more competently and elegantly, but SAC really does have brute-force running time on its side. I don't think our mutual love of Oshii allows us to overlook this fact
As I said, "fleshed out" doesn't necessarily mean "deeper".
It's cool guy thanks for the edit. I'd just hate to go into a LTTP thread myself thinking I might see if this show is for me only to be told later-episode plot details!
This ep resonates with me for strange reasons I fear I can't articulate well. It is completely devoid of action and the episode focuses entirely on characters who are introduced at the start of the episode and are never seen again for the rest of the series. But the way they toss about their theories, disagree with each other and in general act like you'd see just about anybody having an argument on the internet is really well constructed. Maybe it doesn't seem difficult to an observer to simulate an Internet Argument realistically but this was probably incredibly hard to write. They even went as far as to include chan-style 'comments' floating in front of a speaker's face that updated in real time, and you got a meta discussion you could barely keep up with as anonymous chatters attacked, supported and flirted with the principal speakers in the episode. I love this visualization of discussion and how it illustrates an overwhelming density of superficially similar yet irrelevant information that takes a life of its own, a central theme of the Laughing Man arc.
It's a bonus that the track 'smile' is used here so well.
Really? I really disagree. We get to see some of the flaws in cyberization besides hacking. We get to delve a bit deeper into the pasts of a couple of the support characters. And (2nd Gig spoilers)
a touching episode about how and why the Major got a full prosthetic body.
Since I watched these shows like 5 years ago, I might be remembering this wrong.
I felt the movie, while expertly paced, didn't have a lot of time to develop the characters that much out of their archetypes when compared to SAC. The only true character development I remember was the part where Motoko was discussing with Batou what makes a human human and how cyborgs differed early on in the movie.
SAC has a lot of standalone (yeah, i know...) episodes that have less to do with the main plot but allows more time for the characters to show their personality more, out of their archetype. For example, Batou just came off as a slightly cocky but reliable teammate in the original movie. In SAC, he wasn't just so one dimensional. It seems, especially in the last few episodes, where Batou cries out Motoko's name when she seems like she's killed, he loses his normal poise and confidence, showing his true feelings towards Motoko. Later, when he finds out that was just a decoy, he returns to being stoic, which lightly skirts the love issue between them but passes on it. Their relationship becomes much more than professionalism and trust as signified in the GITS movie but more intimate in SAC.
I wish I could elaborate more on the other characters especially Togusa, who acts more human than the others, not just in the literal way (You touched on this as well). I just really don't remember the anime as well as I would like, sorry.
It builds the world much more competently and elegantly, but SAC really does have brute-force running time on its side. I don't think our mutual love of Oshii allows us to overlook this fact
As I said, "fleshed out" doesn't necessarily mean "deeper".
SAC is more wide than it is deep. It has tons of minor, random details that are mostly inconsequential and unimportant to the viewer. A lot of the stuff in it feels like it was written to specifically make the show seem more dense in ideas, not to actually mean anything. In other words, it's phony. (shiit catcher in the rye!!)
Well, even the moments of action in Ghost In The Shell have a more slowed tempo as well. That's not to say the action itself is slow, but the way it is presented is so... I don't know what the word I'm looking for here. A good comparison is Blade Runner - that film has lots of moments of action yet the overall pace is slow and considered. I could see how someone could find it a touch too slow, even if I personally think the pace is spot on.
SAC is more wide than it is deep. It has tons of minor, random details that are mostly inconsequential and unimportant to the viewer. A lot of the stuff in it feels like it was written to specifically make the show seem more dense in ideas, not to actually mean anything. In other words, it's phony. (shiit catcher in the rye!!)
I could only see that as being the case if you thought the characters were wrong as there is a ton of character development in the series that is completely absent in the movies.
I'd agree that Tosuga is probably the 'heart' of the show. Both in terms of his characterisation and to a certain extent the plot. It is him in episode four that uncovers the information key to the Laughing Man case, after all, and it is him who attacks the case with so much passion as the series goes on.
I'm with you there. Innocence's action scenes were so fucking brutal. Also the animation was stunning - I always wondered if the film was slightly rotoscoped, because every character moves with a stunning realism I have never seen outside of the pre-Renaissance Disney rotoscoped films.
Since I watched these shows like 5 years ago, I might be remembering this wrong.
I felt the movie, while expertly paced, didn't have a lot of time to develop the characters that much out of their archetypes when compared to SAC. The only true character development I remember was the part where Motoko was discussing with Batou what makes a human human and how cyborgs differed early on in the movie.
SAC has a lot of standalone (yeah, i know...) episodes that have less to do with the main plot but allows more time for the characters to show their personality more, out of their archetype. For example, Batou just came off as a slightly cocky but reliable teammate in the original movie. In SAC, he wasn't just so one dimensional. It seems, especially in the last few episodes, where Batou cries out Motoko's name when she seems like she's killed, he loses his normal poise and confidence, showing his true feelings towards Motoko. Later, when he finds out that was just a decoy, he returns to being stoic, which lightly skirts the love issue between them but passes on it. Their relationship becomes much more than professionalism and trust as signified in the GITS movie but more intimate in SAC.
I wish I could elaborate more on the other characters especially Togusa, who acts more human than the others, not just in the literal way (You touched on this as well). I just really don't remember the anime as well as I would like, sorry.
I would also add that the movies tend to focus on what is reality and what makes us human while the series focuses on sociological problems like the the standalone complex phenomena which is similar to Anonymous, believe it or not.
Saw Innocence a few months ago and I think it's been a year since I saw the first one. All of the flaws of cyberization in those movies have to deal with hacking. The garbage man's memory was wiped as was the thief's. In the series they have biological problems regarding cyberization such as the crux of the first series.
But the thing is, the Oshii films are actually full of shooting and assplosions. I literally do not get how people can find them boring and say that they don't need shooting and assplosions all the time -- yes, the movies have moments of significant downtime, but they do not go without payoff, and they are there for a purpose anyways; to build mood, immerse the viewer in the world that the films take place in, and the issues the characters face, and so on.
Agreed. Every moment of the movie is used to demonstrate a certain point, a certain feeling. IMO, SAC had a lot of filler that was used for character development and/or pushing the greater themes of the show.
I'd agree that Tosuga is probably the 'heart' of the show. Both in terms of his characterisation and to a certain extent the plot. It is him in episode four that uncovers the information key to the Laughing Man case, after all, and it is him who attacks the case with so much passion as the series goes on.
I agree, more in the characterisation and his actual character. He is the lone human amidst cyborgs and we can relate to him in that way. Even as he was investigating the Laughing Man case, he looked at it from the Salinger angle, opposed to what Motoko did. I vaguely remember Motoko approaching Togusa on the rooftop, reading The Catcher in the Rye, trying to disect it that way.
I would also add that the movies tend to focus on what is reality and what makes us human while the series focuses on sociological problems like the the standalone complex phenomena which is similar to Anonymous, believe it or not.
Let's be careful not to turn this into a straight Oshii vs SAC pissing match. To contextualise our criticisms, sure, but when it turns into simple comparison that really isn't fair. Both are aiming to do very different things, I feel. Existentialism vs pulp techno-thriller.
Let's be careful not to turn this into a straight Oshii vs SAC pissing match. To contextualise our criticisms, sure, but when it turns into simple comparison that really isn't fair. Both are aiming to do very different things, I feel. Existentialism vs pulp techno-thriller.
I'm not saying anybody did, except where I outline my opinion in the OP. I'm just saying "trying to do different things" isn't a valid counter-criticism. And I'm not accusing anyone of doing it, either; I'm just getting in there preemptively.
Oh yes. Both Oshii movies were goddamn beautiful. I was so impressed at both still standing up today. Not sure what technique or technology they used to animate it.
Thanks man I put a lot of effort into it. I fully appreciate hardly anyone is actually going to read it in its entirety though! Good thing it was fun to write. I even got some Photoshop practice in.
Thanks man I put a lot of effort into it. I fully appreciate hardly anyone is actually going to read it in its entirety though! Good thing it was fun to write. I even got some Photoshop practice in.
People who legitimately didn't like SAC? Weird. Maybe to be expected because this is GAF, but weird.
For me, it's far beyond the films and right up there with Planetes as series that discuss very relevant and looming issues for society in the near future. SAC covers more issues and brute-force sort of way, but I enjoyed every minute of both of them.
People who legitimately didn't like SAC? Weird. Maybe to be expected because this is GAF, but weird.
For me, it's far beyond the films and right up there with Planetes as series that discuss very relevant and looming issues for society in the near future. SAC covers more issues and brute-force sort of way, but I enjoyed every minute of both of them. (Actually, I always thought it was a shame that SAC could never get the same kind of media exposure as BSG, as they seem very much like kindred spirits in how they relentlessly attacked social issues new and old.)
SAC is so good because the makers understood Ghost in the Shell, understood Cyberpunk. It's much much better than the 2 movies. It's on my top 5 anime series.
The first movie was particularly bad. But lets face it without the buzz of the first movie they wouldn't be able to fund the series.
The Ghost in the Shell TV series inherited many aspects from Director Oshii. I didn't try to distinguish myself from Director Oshii, Instead, I totally tried to copy him.
By nature, I like emulating others. I try to be like some that's well admired. If I was a fan of some band, I'd be copying everything they do, even their clothes and hairstyles. I'm that kind of person.
Not that the director's own incorrect opinion changes my opinion on direct comparison. In criticism, artists and authors are usually the most ignorant when it comes to their own work.
Not that the director's own incorrect opinion changes my opinion on direct comparison. In criticism, artists and authors are usually the most ignorant when it comes to their own work.
Watched it at 14 too. Part of the reason why I don't prefer joining GITS conversations is I'm afraid to embarrass myself by either forgetting some vital scene or my undeveloped brain not interpreting the anime right. Especially since I was still in shounen phase during then...
I was watching the making of Blood the Last Vampire the other day. Oshii had a hand in it and do you know what he was wearing? A shirt with a picture of a basset hound on it. He really loves those dogs
The politics and the progression of the politics was interesting to watch. A lot of stuff happens in both seasons politically, and the plot is motivated by the political reality of the universe. The reactions of political figures and how they deal with Section 9 is also interesting.
I liked the machines. I liked the cyberpunk future setting is very fun and the reactions with the machines is also interesting outside of the tachikomas. I like the technology and how its used or abused in the political situation.
The animation is very nice for when it was made. I liked how some of the scenes were "shot" that calibrate the speed the major can move at or the size of the city she was moving through.
The fanservice, especially the major, was probably one of the reasons I completed the series when I was young. Anime drafts in young people through teasing them sexually, and that is how they got me when I first watched it as a much younger male.
The things I dislike about sac:
The philosophy is terrible. When I was little I didn't see any problems with the series, but mostly because I didn't understand it. Growing up I realized this was because most of the ideas, quotes, philosophy presented in the series hardly mean anything. I have only rewatched the second season, but there is a lot of problems with the philosophy exerted in the series. I will spoil the first episode below, but since it has nothing to do with the actual plot, I am not going to include it in spoiler tags.
The show starts out with some poor guy who is troubled by the "reality" of the universe. The troubled guy exerts himself as common class guy and knowing "the reality" and having little bearing on it. He starts pointing out how everything is fake and goes through many training scenes as if the story of this episode was borrowed from "the Taxi Driver." I think it was ripped off from the Taxi Driver, or is a 'paid tribute' to it, because the story centers on a chauffeur. He fights the imagined universe of Ghost in the Shell, and hates it all just like the taxi driver in Taxi Driver does, but with trans-humanist problems. Except that isn't the point of Taxi Driver at all, because the protagonist of that movie
tries to like everything around him, but fails because it is so perverse, and then snaps.
In Ghost of the Shell SAC Second GIG, the taxi driver of this episode is just angry all the time, and then is ignored because he is "just like everyone else."
If it was a tribute, it was a very poor representation of Taxi Driver. All the ideas are borrowed from that great movie and misrepresented in shambles.
All the ideas in SAC are very poor. Just listen to the tachikomas have a chat with each other. Any philosophical discussion attempted in the show is poor and devoid of any real interesting discussion. All the characters sound the same too, with the same philosophy and conclusions, as if the director was just speaking whenever the topic of philosophy came up. This is a problem because the main theme of GITS is the philosophy of human interaction in a transhuman future. If the ideas are poor, then despite every political progression, you can only look at the characters like idiots.
I was watching the making of Blood the Last Vampire the other day. Oshii had a hand in it and do you know what he was wearing? A shirt with a picture of a basset hound on it. He really loves those dogs
Now there's a film I felt didn't live up to the rest of his work. I was so sorely disappointed by Blood. Oh well. Watched it at age 17 with a girlfriend because she was into the whole vampire thing. She loved it.
I'd love to elaborate on my thoughts on the series, but unfortunately all I have time for is stating that I consider the movies to be among the best ever made and the 2nd Gig was better than the first season of Stand Alone Complex by a long shot. Not the least of reasons because Major was allowed to wear something more professional than a trashy hooker's costume.
Still, I enjoyed them all. Great OP written with some obvious passion and conviction. Subscribed for the ensuing conversation.
Now there's a film I felt didn't live up to the rest of his work. I was so sorely disappointed by Blood. Oh well. Watched it at age 17 with a girlfriend because she was into the whole vampire thing. She loved it.
What? I thought, as a straight up action film, it was great. Not to mention the excellent pacing, the stellar animation and the gritty atmosphere. Much better than the piece of crap Blood+.
What? I thought, as a straight up action film, it was great. Not to mention the excellent pacing, the stellar animation and the gritty atmosphere. Much better than the piece of crap Blood+.
I need context to my action. Blood didn't really have that. Or rather, it had a ton of it but it sure as shit wasn't going to let me know what the context was.
The philosophy is terrible. When I was little I didn't see any problems with the series, but mostly because I didn't understand it. Growing up I realized this was because most of the ideas, quotes, philosophy presented in the series hardly mean anything. I have only rewatched the second season, but there is a lot of problems with the philosophy exerted in the series. I will spoil the first episode below, but since it has nothing to do with the actual plot, I am not going to include it in spoiler tags.
Kinda agree with you. I mean, in the end, as another poster said, the philosophy was kind of inserted in to make it more substantial than it actually is. Ultimately, it ends up being quite shallow, kind of the like The Matrix. I feel the character development and the ideals of the characters are much more interesting than the philosophical technobabble it hides behind.
I need context to my action. Blood didn't really have that. Or rather, it had a ton of it but it sure as shit wasn't going to let me know what the context was.
That's true. I always envisioned Blood: TLV having some kind of prequel to explain the intruiging plot and world it gave a glimpse of to us. Instead, Blood+ ended up being complete bullocks and Blood-C, from what I've heard, is absolute crap.
Anyone know that song that plays when Motoko is in that orphanage place? It seems a bit obscure. I believe she's walking by some windows and the music swells up. I've never ran into it outside of the show. Was one of those goosebumps moments.
Anyone know that song that plays when Motoko is in that orphanage place? It seems a bit obscure. I believe she's walking by some windows and the music swells up. I've never ran into it outside of the show. Was one of those goosebumps moments.
I love both series immensely, but I have no real thoughts to add to this thread simply because it has been a while since I last rewatched both of them.
Near the end of the series, there's a scene where Tosuga is looking up what happened to his friends, going through their files, and the only character to have a first and last name is the major. Everyone else just has the one name we know them by in the series. I've always felt this scene was pretty reflective of the whole series; there were times when the show just pretended at depth.
While i generally liked GITS, a lot of the stand alone episodes were pretty and one in particular actually offended me. it was the episode where Batou is hunting that serial killer from his military days.
It turns out that the killer was a former american agent, hired by the US government to purposely torture and kill civilians in horrific ways to hurt enemy morale and sow terror, and after the war he kept doing it.
Now i'm not going to sit here and pretend i haven't seen this exact story a dozen times in American media, casting other countries as the villains with americans as the noble heroes who's goodness thwarts the manipulations of weasel like foreign agents. And i do call bs when i see it. but GITS does it so bluntly, with the characters so cartoon-like, it does seem like they're just hating on America. It just pissed me off.
And while America has not always acted with grace and nobility in war, Japan isn't necessarily the best country to call us on this...
The overall plot and direction of the complex episodes was really good though, so different a lot of them seemed like they were done by completely different people then the Stand alone. Anything to do with the laughing man had me paying rapt attention.
I enjoyed both this and the original series greatly and they're certainly among my favourite anime series of all time. It's been a few years since I watched them so this thread is tempting me to start a re-watch. Good job with the OP.
Near the end of the series, there's a scene where Tosuga is looking up what happened to his friends, going through their files, and the only character to have a first and last name is the major. Everyone else just has the one name we know them by in the series. I've always felt this scene was pretty reflective of the whole series; there were times when the show just pretended at depth.
While i generally liked GITS, a lot of the stand alone episodes were pretty and one in particular actually offended me. it was the episode where Batou is hunting that serial killer from his military days.
It turns out that the killer was a former american agent, hired by the US government to purposely torture and kill civilians in horrific ways to hurt enemy morale and sow terror, and after the war he kept doing it.
Now i'm not going to sit here and pretend i haven't seen this exact story a dozen times in American media, casting other countries as the villains with americans as the noble heroes who's goodness thwarts the manipulations of weasel like foreign agents. And i do call bs when i see it. but GITS does it so bluntly, with the characters so cartoon-like, it does seem like they're just hating on America. It just pissed me off.
And while America has not always acted with grace and nobility in war, Japan isn't necessarily the best country to call us on this...
The overall plot and direction of the complex episodes was really good though, so different a lot of them seemed like they were done by completely different people then the Stand alone. Anything to do with the laughing man had me paying rapt attention.
I agree with the overall point you made about that episode (some Japanese still deny the rape of nanking to this day), but that episode was a filler. It was one of the very few episodes that had nothing to do with the original manga. I think the writer just lift it from a generic US cable show like X-fille or whatever was popular at the time.
one of my favourite anime TV shows. I was just about to watch the first GITS film and slowly work my way through the movies and the 1st and 2nd Gigs. Great stuff.
