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LTTP - Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex (series 1)

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Suairyu

Banned
[loading data sector 01]

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Playlist start: 'We're the Great'

Read here first

People who have not watched the show but want to be convinced to might be reading! For the purposes of discussion, this thread shall have mild spoilers as unmarked, and major spoilers protected by use of the
tag. I'll define mild spoilers as the conceptual ideas, character design and the plot premise/setup. I think the easiest way to segregate that is to say the first block of three Complex episodes are fair game, but after that plot points will be tagged.

Also, this post is about the first series only. I have not watched 2nd Gig. I intend to. Feel free to discuss it in this thread, but please please please use the goddamn spoiler tags.

Preface

I think like a lot of people my age, Ghost In The Shell was one of my very first exposures to 'grown-up' anime. Up until that point I'd been limited to Toonami, showing only Tenchi, Dragonball and Gundam Wing. Then I got my first job and used my first pay packet to pick up Ninja Scroll, Akira, and Ghost in the Shell. I don't think I could have asked for a better introduction into the world of adult-targeted animation.

Ghost In The Shell's amazing mix of action, corporate-political intrigue, philosophical consideration and, yes, sex appeal did a number on my young mind. I think of special note was that all the nature-of-life philosophy actually had depth to it, rather than just a veneer to add to the cyberpunk aesthetic. A few years later, when I was 18, I had the pleasure of attending a screening of the film's sequel, Ghost In The Shell: Innocence, a few months before its actual UK release, straight-to-DVD. It managed to be so different from the original, asking different philosophical questions and not simply re-treading the same ground plot-wise, yet still retain the same tone and high quality. I consider both as among the finest works in animated film history.

At University, I had the chance to read the original source manga for the first film. I was... disappointed. I think the film did the concept and characters much better. I didn't like the light-hearted tone. I thought the artist was poor at drawing action on static pages in a way that wasn't confusing. It wasn't a bad manga by any means, but I think it would have been historically irrelevant were it not for such a fantastic film to have been adapted.

I approached the series fully aware of it being set within its own continuity and of it re-inserting some of the humour of the original manga. It was with a mindset of zero expectations that I began watching Stand Alone Complex.

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Track change: 'Inner Universe'

The Opening

The first thing you see when you start to watch the show and it certainly makes an impression. A gorgeously rendered nighttime cityscape pans down and cuts to fast-falling text creating larger text, in an effect reminiscent of The Matrix (which itself was reminiscent of the original Ghost In The Shell film's title sequence). Cut back to the city, this time at street level, and a thermo-optically camoflauged Major Kusanagi is running through the streets, intercut with footage of blue tanks and VTOL jets. All of this is set to a thumping, electronic song with a mixture of English, Latin and Russian lyrics. I think t.A.t.U were really popular at the time or something so it makes sense I guess.

There's actually a bit of storytelling going on in this opening. We are shown a short clip of the Major as a child gripping a toy doll so tightly it breaks. It then cuts to Kusanagi as an adult, living in a capsule room. Rather elegantly, we now know that the Major had cybernetic limbs from a very young age and that either she had difficulty controlling them or they made her so angry she broke her toys. You won't find out which is true, unfortunately, as it's never touched on in the series itself. Maybe it doesn't need to be? It adds character flavour without the exposition.

Fairly quickly it cuts back to a battle between the blue tanks and a larger tank, with Kusanagi getting involved at the end. It's exciting and frantic. Predictably for an anime opener, it's actually more exciting than anything in the show itself. Honestly I imagine most pre-production meetings in the anime industry go like this:
"Good news, people! We've been given a budget of $1 million to make our science fiction magnum opus! The team working on the opening, I want you to spend $750000 on the opening. Use state of the art animation techniques to create something that rivals Akira in quality. Everyone else? You'll have a tighter budget of $250000 and it needs to stretch over 26 episodes so let's be frugal. Everyone do your best!"

I understand the marketing perspective - catch someone's interest in the first thirty seconds and you'll have it for the remaining twenty five minutes, but still. It's not that the opening gives the expectation that the entire show would be rendered in gorgeous 3D, as that'd be silly, but it is so delicious-looking that when it cuts to cheaply animated digital cels pasted on top of even cheaper, boxy-looking 3D sets that the contrast is jarring.

Actually, on the subject of digital cels...

In the future the colours make me vomit

Digital anime animation was still relatively new at the time. A lot of the digitally produced anime back then had awful colouring. Really bright, super-saturated colours that don't work together especially well. The night scenes tend to fair okay, but it's the day scenes that look far too artificial and day-glo. It's not a massive problem, but it does expose SAC as a product of its time. More recently, most anime artists have learnt to balance their digital colouring well. Of course, some don't...

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Track change: 'Home Stay'

Section 9

The new characters who were not present in the films are functional. They fit clear character roles and fit them well. The sniper. The heavy. The techie. There's not much to say and they're never really explored in too much depth either. They're all capable and sure of themselves.

'Returning' from the film are Major Motoko Kusanagi, Batou, Tosuga and Chief Aramaki. However, aside from Tosuga who seems almost identical to his previous portrayal (despite his mullet reaching even more ridiculous proportions), all the characters have received a bit of a softening up. Aramaki flits between stern leader and warm father figure. Batou is a happy-go-lucky bloke's bloke, a million miles away from how he appears in the second Ghost In The Shell film.

And the Major... well, gone is the navel-gazing and soul-searching of her film portrayal. She remains a very intelligent, highly-capable operative (one of my slight niggles with the series is that she seems more physically capable than Batou in combat) but a much more sarcastic, sassy side to her is shown. It's closer to the manga, just without the exagerated female oafishness. That includes the sex.

The Sex

This show is obsessed with sex. Don't get me wrong; the film very consciously used sex appeal in its aesthetic. However, this show takes that and runs with it. The Major's outfit is fucking ridiculous. A leotard and a leather jacket with thigh-high boots. It's the kind of getup that sees the "how to make an outfit sexy but still somewhat believable" and steps right over it, being sure as to take the hugest step possible so the line can get a decent up-skirt look-see.

The Major is constantly using her sex appeal to get out or into situations. She has no qualms with being used as a honeypot to ensnare male victims to complete her mission. It's schlocky female-sci-fi-character scenario planning at its worse, something goddamn Star Trek, the poster-child for science fiction female objectification, graduated out of in the 90s.

On the less insulting side, the Kusanagi's sexuality is also something touched upon. It is heavily implied that she is at least bi-sexual, possibly even lesbian. There's never any real moment of intimacy between her and a man, just her victory-by-seduction 'combat' approaches. However, her affections for women are clearly shown more than once. It's not a focus of any episode, but rather a background element that adds to the character. In a show that often isn't subtle, this aspect is.

There is a moment of possible intimacy/sexual tension with Batou in the penultimate episode. I liked this moment very much. It didn't go for the "the main characters of opposite-sex are together and in peril, they must make love" thing. Something lingered, but then it was gone. Or maybe it wasn't, and something happened off-screen, but it doesn't matter. It is left unspoken and all the better for it.

The Memory

Aside from Tosuga, who is an ex-cop, all of the members of Section 9 are vets of a war that is often hinted at but never explained. We know the war had some kind of Asian focus due to the large amount of Chinese and Japanese refugees, we also know it happened about a decade ago, but beyond that it's left deliberately vague. What we are shown instead is how it affected modern life. Section 9, for example, was only able to be approved in the post-war panic. A high-tech police force was needed to do the dirty work and the end of the war provided a lot of exceptional out-of-work soldiers for hire.

These members of Section 9 are survivors, simultaneously carrying and forgetting their traumas. When watching the show you do well to remember that no-one in Section 9 is a particularly nice person. They're all bastards, in the end. Though they remain self-sacrificingly loyal to their comrades, willing to risk death to help each other, you get the distinct impression that who they regard as their comrades is a rather fluid concept.

What really drove this home for me is the episode where the Major disbands Section 9. They all go their seperate ways without even so much as a curt nod or 'goodbye'. They'd been so loyal and friendly with each other because that's what people in the same squad do. The moment that squad ceased to exist that social contract was terminated. They weren't even sad about it. Slightly sentimental, but in a passing sense.

The Tachikomas

Oh fuck this character design right in the ass. Right. In. The. Ass. With an augmented penis loaded with shotgun shells.

Ghost In The Shell's "think-tanks" - autonamous tanks with super-advanced AI. They can climb walls, shoot spiderman-like webs, are equipped with rocket launchers and miniguns, and have thermoptic camouflage. While entirely capable of acting independant, a single user may also inhabit the Tachikoma and pilot it.

Sounds baddass, right? They even look cool with their blue stylings and multiple 'eyes'. Unfortunately, the creators decided that the special ingredient needed to truly complete the design was that they needed the be as annoying as possible. They're meant to have child-like personalities, reflecting their curiosity as artificial intelligences designed to consume information and learn from data. In practice, this means they're given the most animu bullshit voices you ever heard. I'm talking the worst loli character from a nurse-themed hentai you ever heard and making it even more grating. Yeah. That bad.

Even worse is that the Tachikomas end up taking up at least half of the entire series' running time. They have entire episodes dedicated to themselves. But what makes them truly infuriating is that they're the shows single biggest missed opportunity. Had they been executed properly it might have elevated this series to one of the finest in anime history. Instead they drag the whole thing down like an unwanted child from a failed relationship when the mother has fucked off with a new man to the city and won't pay child support, which I guess is their characterisation anyway so go figure.

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Track change: 'Run Rabbit Junk'

Stand Alone/Complex?

The show has a central meta-textual conceit in its episode naming format. It utilises the episodic-serial storytelling fusion popularised by the X-Files of having the a few, central "mythology" (dubbed 'Complex') episodes that deal with an over-arching plot peppered in-between the "monster of the week", isolated episodes ('Stand Alone'). The show gets through a batch of these stand-alone episodes before even hinting at the central, over-arching plot. As a narrative technique, this is fine and as old as storytelling itself - build up the world and characters before you build up the great problem they have to face.

As there are strengths to both the episodic and the serial storytelling format, having a mix of both isn't in concept a bad idea. Unfortunaely for SAC, there are two major faults that make the fusion approach seem unsatisfying. Firstly, the pacing is all out of whack. I'll explain what I mean by that later. More damning, most of the stand alone episodes simply aren't very good at all.

Stand Alone

The 'point' of these episodes is often to expand on both the characters and the world. The war that is constantly hinting at but never explained. The political reality of Section 9 existing. International relations. The implications of a cyberised society. Where the various members of Section 9 fit into this. Or, sometimes, just cool ideas and scenarios for combat/detective-work that wouldn't have fitted into the main plot. All good ideas, it's just the show's runners lack the skill to pull any of this off in a way that feels both satisfying in its own right whilst also not making the viewer go "GOD I just want to get back to the main plot already!"

There are two notable exceptions to this. Well, one and a half.

Episode 12, "Tachikoma Runs Away; The Movie Director's Dream", plays like two short episodes edited into one. In the first half, one of the woeful Tachikoma characters (specifically, Batou's personal think-tank) decides to just up and leave to go on a day adventure. It meets a girl and they go looking for the girl's lost dog. Yes. It's shit. However, while outside the annoying machine comes across a cyberbrain (literally a real person's brain in a box, which is what is installed inside cyborg bodies) which sets up the second half of the episode.

This second half is sublime. The cyberbrain is the central mystery; everyone in Section 9 who interfaces with it never comes out. Imagine Neo trapped in the Matrix at the beginning of the third film. For whatever reason, they don't 'disconnect'. Cue Kusanagi diving in herself to discover the cause. The exploration of what is inside the cyberbrain is so simple, yet so heartfelt, that I wondered sadly why the rest of the series couldn't have had more of this particular touch. It is exactly the concepts explored in this half-episode that are the most interesting to me about a futurised world with a blending between the virtual and the reality. This is 'hard' sci-fi, but with a soft touch.

The other episode I particularly enjoyed - episode 16, "Chinks in the Armor of the Heart – Ag2O"* - focusses on Batou. A paralympic boxing silver medalist is suspected of stealing information from a US Navy Base. Batou goes undercover and befriends the ex-boxer (who he's long admired) to ascertain the truth. This episode is successful because it weaves together many different conceptual threads into one package.
- The concept of 'paralympic' in a society with mechanical augmentation.
- Hero-worship and what happens when we suspect our heroes aren't really heroes at all.
- Comraderie and the respect men often find they gain of each other when in combat such as boxing.
- Just how important the notion of self-respect and belief is to every aspect of our lives.
- How suffering emotional trauma can eat away at who we are.

This last point is of special importance, because while the episode focusses on the emotional trauma of the boxer, the real framing comes from Batou's own pain. Deftly handled, it stands as one of the few moments of truly subtle character development in the entire series. All of the central characters of Section 9 are experts of putting their demons behind them and wiping their slates clean when their life demands it. This episode shows that the slate-wiping process isn't easy and some demons get so deep under the skin that they linger stubbornly. It's a concept that is visited only once more in the series' penultimate episode.

As all of Section 9 have gone their separate ways and subsequently been arrested, only Batou and the Major are left. That quiet moment of unphysical intimacy, where Batou observes they both have sentimental hang-ons to remind them they were once human. Batou keeps a weight-lifting regimen, despite not needing to in the slightest. The Major keeps hold of the watch she used to 'celebrate' her final body change into an adult form, always making sure every body after fits the watch. It's such a powerful moment, one of the rare occassions where the series briefly reaches the same level as the film. I wanted more of this kind of thing, I really did.

*Quiet, NBA-GAF!

Stand Alone: Complex

There is actually a second 'main' narrative thread running thoughout the series, confined to the Stand Alone episodes. The Tachikoma think-tanks, as I've already said, are absolutely terrible characters. However, these are also characters that dig at what the original Ghost In The Shell is all about - at what point does artificial intelligence become so complex that it can be classified as a life form? At what point does it develop a 'ghost'? The developing intelligence and (chiefly) personalities of the tachikomas are focussed on frequently within these Stand Alone episodes.

In a fairly interesting story mechanic, we have Kusanagi who is wary of and actively dislikes the tachikomas' curiosity and "chatter", and we have Batau who identifies with one of the tachikomas, considering it "his" and only ever using it, even giving it special organic oil. It's a nice contrast and sets the stage for the good philosophical consideration that Ghost In The Shell so successfully did.

Except it never does it. In fact, it wastes it. The child-like tachikomas are annoying and only get more annoying as time goes on. What could have been a brilliant side-story is ruined by awful character design and an idiot's approach to descartian philosophy. The real 'meat' of the problem is brought up and dismissed within the space of two minutes in the penultimate episode. It's a completely unsatisfying, grating plot thread that should have either been done properly or not at all.

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Suairyu

Banned
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Track change: 'Train Search'

Complex

Ultimately, it's this that you're here for; the central cyberpunk mystery-thriller running throughout the show. And you know what? It's fantastic. Absolutely fantastic.

The base concept is that there is a super-hacker who goes by the name of 'The Laughing Man'. Six years ago, he kidnapped the CEO of a bio-tech company and held him at gun-point in broad daylight, demanding he "tell the truth". As he was doing this, he hacked the TV broadcast so that his face was covered by a logo of a face with a quote from a Salinger short story. Not only this, but he also hacked the cyberbrain of everyone in the nearest vicinity, over-writing their vision so they too saw nothing but the logo.

Following this public stunt, the hacker blackmailed a series of the highest-earning companies in the world, extorting them each for millions with their own dirty secrets. And then he vanished. This all occured before the formation of Section 9. By the time the show commences, it has been six years since the last 'Laughing Man' incident. He re-emerges suddenly in the fourth episode of the series, kick-starting the Complex story arc by taking over a broad of a police conference, demanding the super-intendent tells the truth or he will be assasinated. Section 9, the division most suited to dealing with cyber-crime, is called into action...

What follows is a twisting tale of police corruption, corporate espionage, military power and even political machination. The Laughing Man's impact on pop culture and the public psyche is examined. One of the episodes even consists entirely of users in a chat room discussing their various theories. It's smartly told stuff that will keep you gripped until the very end, the final revelations answering all the questions satisfactorarily yet not providing a a neat and tidy ending.

When I was watching this story unfold, I was transfixed.

When I was watching it.

When.

Pacing

SA = Stand alone episode
C = Complex episode

SA/SA/SA/C/C/C/SA/SA/C/SA/C/SA/SA/SA/SA/SA/SA/SA/SA/C/C/C/C/C/C/C

See the problem? For the first half of the series it's actually quite nicely paced. You have your introductory three episodes to set the scene, then dive into the myth-arc with a gripping three-parter. Then follows two regular doses of further mythology intersped regularly between some stand alone episodes.

And then you reach a block of eight Stand Alone episodes.

Now, consider what I said earlier, that most of these episodes are terrible. And you know what the real kicker is? You better not skip any of those stand alone episodes, because suddenly information from them is pulled for the final block of Complex episodes. If you haven't been watching, you'll miss out.

Just grit your teeth and deal.

The fucking loli hentai nurse blue spider tank Tachikomos had to get a final word in, didn't they? I mean, I hated those shits but I thought their sudden off-screen decomissioning and Batou's subsequent self-loathing were absolutely brilliant. It redeemed those blue twats somewhat, adding a new layer to the central characters. But they weren't happy with that, were they? They had to have a moment of glory as well. And bring God into it while they're at it. And then Kusanagi rolls up and is all "oh they might have had ghosts lol", basically admitted she sent a bunch of actual living beings to the slaughterhouse and all she can do is smile wistfully. The entire meat of Ghost In The Shell, the entire central concept to this franchise - that the border between a virtualised human being and an AI is getting blurred - thrown in almost as an afterthought. Fuck those blue cunts.

The Stand Alone Complex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEi4I6UWuDQ

It happens.

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Track change: 'Lithium Flower'

Just incredble math

So where does this all leave me regarding my thoughts on it all? Is this show worth your time? Yes. Absolutely. Even in a TV-friendly alternate universe, the world of Ghost In The Shell remains ever compelling. The central myth arc should be experienced by all fans of cyberpunk and anime, and there are a couple of gems hidden away in the stand-alone episodes, too. The action is generally exciting, especially as the show ramps up towards its conclusion. The characters are likeable, even if you wouldn't let your guard down around them. The music. Oh my, the music. I've had a playlist running through-out this post for a reason: I don't have to talk about the music now. I'm not eloquent enough to talk about music. It speaks for itself, anyway.

However, it's important to note that this is an exceedingly flawed creation. Even if you're smartly choosing to divorce yourself from all expectations the brilliant film would have created, you're still left with a show that for nearly half of its episodes is merely average and occassionally outright poor. But those highs are wonderful, man. It's worth the slog to get experience them. And at only 26 episodes it's not like you'll have too much of your life wasted. What have you got to lose? Oh that's right, nothing. Get your punk-ass to Netflix or something.

I've put 2nd Gig in my LoveFiLM rental queue. Hopefully in a month or so I'll be able to talk about that too.

What did you think, anime-GAF? How would you rate the series? Should I be excited for 2nd Gig? Would you become a woman and then go gay just for a shot at Kusanagi? Would you then cry at her for walking around in those ridiculous outfits like she enjoys the attention and just doesn't respect you or your feelings? THESE QUESTIONS ARE IMPORTANT.

[end of data sector 02]

Brought to you by the newly-baptised confederation of LTTP threads with actual content to them. Apply for citizenship today!

[begin new data sector 03 'comments']
 

LiQuid!

I proudly and openly admit to wishing death upon the mothers of people I don't like
I really, really love cyberpunk, but I really, really hate anime. I've tried to watch this a couple times but only get a couple episodes in before I get bored.
 
This series and 2nd gig are my favorite tv shows. Yeah, the tachikomas can be annoying, but they eventually grew on me.
 

Soma

Member
I thought the series was pretty a'ight. Some pretty great episodes but overall I think I prefer both Oshii films over the SAC series.

Haven't really gotten to see the 2nd season yet though.
 
I thought the stand alone episodes in 2nd Gig were much better than the first but the laughing man arc was a better main arc. Either way it's still one of my favorite series.
 

frostbyte

Member
I still prefer the original movie more although i do acknowledge the tv series as being more fleshed out and deeper overall. It's just that the original movie had perfect pacing and just hit all the right notes for me.

I thought the series was pretty a'ight. Some pretty great episodes but overall I think I prefer both Oshii films over the SAC series.

Haven't really gotten to see the 2nd season yet though.

Eh, the second Oshii film was unnecessarily convoluted with all the philosophical babble. I think both the original and the two tv series struck the perfect balance between the faster paced action and the more poignant reflection/philosophical debates.
 

dluu13

Member
When I first started watching, I was all like "wtf is this", and I stopped, but then I remembered that the opening was awesome so I went back and gave it another chance.

I'm glad I did.
 

Suairyu

Banned
I still prefer the original movie more although i do acknowledge the tv series as being more fleshed out and deeper overall.
You best elaborate on this with spoiler tags because I'm not seeing it at all... and I'm the guy who just wrote a two post essay on the damn thing!
 

Dizzy-4U

Member
Never understood what the hell was going on. It was like trying to undestand Aeon Flux. This was like 7 years ago, I definitely need to rewatch it.
 

Credo

Member
Although I saw the movie first, I still prefer Stand Alone Complex. It took me a bit to really get into it, but once I did, I was REALLY into it and couldn't wait to see what was next. And while I don't want to say it's the best anime soundtrack ever, it's certainly my favorite. I can't imagine what the series would've been without Yoko Kanno.
 

Orayn

Member
I have little to say except...

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Also, I found the compilation movie on Netflix and was pissed off to hear that Motoko had a different English VA.
 

Suairyu

Banned
Also, I found the compilation movie on Netflix and was pissed off to hear that Motoko had a different English VA.
I haven't liked any of the English dubs I've heard of this franchise over the years, to be honest. Both of the Oshii films had two different dubs, neither resonated with me. I'm not some "Japanese is always better than English" purist but those Japanese voice actors just got the characters so damn right.
 

Vaporak

Member
Stand Alone Complex is so good because the highs are so high; the laughing man storyline is just brilliantly done. The series really is a must see to get a good appreciation for Cyber-punk fiction I think. As for the second season, I'm undecided on how I compare it to the first season. One thing I will say is that the second season is substantially more consistent and on the plot than the first season, but I think ultimately that plot isn't as interesting as The Laughing Man.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Did Suairyu just put some actual effort in a thread of his own?

Are you ok, ducky?

Edit: Rats, I confused you with chinner. All the damn waterfowl look the same to me!
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
It's pretty bad compared to both of the Oshii movies. In fact, it'd be bad even without that as a base of comparison. I'll just use these posts from the past to give a little starting room since I know you'll ask me to elaborate.
How is the narrative disjointed? And SAC has a "cohesive" story, I guess, but not a particularly good one, nor is it told well. In fact, everything that the Oshii detractors accuse Oshii of is actually present in SAC more than it is in Oshii's GITS.

For example, SAC's pretentious (yes, That Word again) obsession with the Catcher in the Rye shit is far more offensive and eyeroll-worthy than any Biblical quote or philosopher reference in Oshii's GITS, because Oshii is actually up front to the audience about it and uses it to further the ideas and themes present in his movies. In SAC, it's more like an "oh man referencing controversial literature this is pretty edgy and cool" thing.

In SAC, the story is only ever advanced by people mouthing off boring dialogue filled with senseless technobabble or political shit that nobody cares about in a briefing room or politician's office or some control center, because it never tells anything through the visuals since the show is so sterile and bland that it feels like they are animating a series about a live-action cyberpunk series that takes place entirely on plastic studio sets. It's awful. Whereas in Oshii's GITS, this isn't true. The talking head scenes aren't there to advance the story but merely to set the mood.


Well, every "stand alone" episode of the show is of significantly lower quality than episodes within the main arc (which are already of questionable quality) so I feel it wasn't necessary to tackle them.




I don't think you realize how many references to the book there are in the show. For example, the "fuck you" written on the wall in the library towards the end. Just ugh. Normally these sort of references should tickle viewers who understand them, but when they are handled in such a clumsy and juvenile way they come off as rather obnoxious and offensive. It's like a meathead who watches Fight Club and spouts off about how manly it is and quotes it without realizing the movie is making fun of him.


How am I ignoring those episodes? They all play out the same, the story is told in the same manner. A briefing/meeting that tells the viewer what's going on -> stuff related to this briefing/meeting happens -> a character recounts what happened and gives the viewer history related to what happened -> the end.


Thank you for using these exact words.

How SAC shows the viewer that the characters are in a world where you literally can't trust your eyes:
A character either spends several minutes explaining the technology and how thing X works or a quirk with the technology (because this is a cyberpunk series so random pieces of technology needs flaws even if they make no sense), and then a scene related briefly happens even though it seems like a standard scene and you probably wouldn't realize what it was demonstrating if a character didn't tell you, or, the same thing except the explanation comes after the events.

How Oshii shows the viewer that the characters are in a world where you literally can't trust your eyes (or even use them at all...):
Ghost in the Shell example
Innocence example
 

Ziltoid

Unconfirmed Member
I really, really love cyberpunk, but I really, really hate anime. I've tried to watch this a couple times but only get a couple episodes in before I get bored.
So you find it boring because it's anime? That doesn't really make sense. It's just animation with a distinct aesthetic. That doesn't affect the content.
But if you meant that you just found GiTS boring in general: Bad taste confirmed :p
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
It's pretty bad compared to both of the Oshii movies. In fact, it'd be bad even without that as a base of comparison. I'll just use these posts from the past to give a little starting room since I know you'll ask me to elaborate.
I disagree: I greatly prefer it over Oshii's movies, which may be more profound, but bored me to tears.

Still, the original manga is the best incarnation of the franchise by a long shot.
 
You best elaborate on this with spoiler tags because I'm not seeing it at all... and I'm the guy who just wrote a two post essay on the damn thing!

How can you not see the series as being more fleshed out? That's what the stand alone episodes are for: to flesh out the universe. Now I won't say that it's deeper.

Pizzaroll, I disagree, the films are nothing but talking heads interspersed with action. The first couple of acts in the first film is pretty interesting, but things grind to a halt after the MAjor's battle with the tank. After that, it's just a lot of talk. The second film is worst in that most of time they are talking by using quotes. And there is one particular scene in the middle of that was just completely unnecessary and went on way too long.

That said, I still like the films, but I prefer the series over them.
 

Suairyu

Banned
I hope you don't think I'm trolling or joking! I'm pretty serious about my dislike of SAC, and my love of the Oshii movies.
No I actually really respect your opinion. You think out what you say and engage with the material your critiquing. I think it's just by some bizarre twist of fate that we constantly disagree about stuff.

Though I still feel that you couldn't understand what I was driving at in the Angel Egg thread was you having a really dense moment.

I mean, as I said in the OP I consider the two films to be amongst the finest anime works ever and SAC is nowhere near that level of quality, yet I still found it to be an enjoyable techno-thriller pulp romp.
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
Pizzaroll, I disagree, the films are nothing but talking heads interspersed with action. The first couple of acts in the first film is pretty interesting, but things grind to a halt after the MAjor's battle with the tank. After that, it's just a lot of talk. The second film is worst in that most of time they are talking by using quotes. And there is one particular scene in the middle of that was just completely unnecessary and went on way too long.
No, they aren't. I specifically addressed this in my post.

No I actually really respect your opinion. You think out what you say and engage with the material your critiquing. I think it's just by some bizarre twist of fate that we constantly disagree about stuff.

I mean, as I said in the OP I consider the two films to be amongst the finest anime works ever and SAC is nowhere near that level of quality, yet I still found it to be an enjoyable techno-thriller pulp romp.
Ah, I see. I'm just making sure because you've run into my less serious side a couple of times... (this is not one of them)
 

Slavik81

Member
If you haven't read it, The Laughing Man by JD Salinger is a pretty good story. It doesn't really have anything to do with anything, but it's cool.

They were kind of on a Salinger kick with this. The quote comes from The Catcher in the Rye, the Laughing Man is a reference to a Salinger story, and there are various other references as well. Bananafish, for instance, was mentioned in the episode in which the Tachikoma visited the virtual theatre.

The Catcher in the Rye seems to be popular as a point of reference for anime released around that time. FLCL has a number of striking similarities, and paralleled it in a number of ways.

Anyways, I bought the special editions of each individual DVD. It cost something like $300, but it was worth it. Stand Alone Complex was absolutely fantastic. It's also worth mentioning that the English dub is quite good. It's my preferred way of watching this series.
 

Grisby

Member

Love the series. One of the last great animes I ended up watching before I got out of the whole deal. The Major has to be one of the best female characters around. The film I was ok on, it was good, but the series turned me on to a whole nother' level. 2nd gig was decent as well but I enjoyed the stories from the first more.

That episode where the major is hooked up to an online chat group talking about the laughing man is one of my favorite episodes.

And that opening song. Jesus, Origa rocks.

And how can you not like the Tachikomas? That's just heartless man. They do crazy things, like-
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
How did they bore you?

The tempo felt slow as fuck.

It is not like I need SHOOTINGS AND ASSPLOSSIONS ALL THE TIME but at some points the films felt as if they died off for a few minutes. The soundtrack (as good as it was) didn't help either.

Edit: I also happen to think that the TV shows are closer to the first manga, even if they are considerably less dark.
 

Suairyu

Banned
How can you not see the series as being more fleshed out? That's what the stand alone episodes are for: to flesh out the universe. Now I won't say that it's deeper.
It was mostly the "deeper" part of your post that I took issue with.

By virtue of having an episodic structure to work with, SAC naturally can "flesh out" some more world details.
 

Pollux

Member
Just watched the movie for the first time. Really good. Will look into this later.

Subscribed though.
 
I always think back warmly on this series I watched it while I was going through college. In those days of Pre-financial meltdown it seemed like human progress was truly effortless and inevitable (Major talks about this at length at the end of the first movie) and GitS SAC and 2nd GIG play right into that cyber optimist theme. The overarching stories are really incredible and a little mind bending at times, some of that confusion probably came from reading the English subtitles furiously while line after line of semi useless jargon pass by....that's really the one big flaw in the Japanese verison , I noticed they dumbed down a little bit for us stupid americans in the dubs. I really love all of the music (Kanno=musical goddess) I didn't really mind the tachikomas so much, I got used to them. This + 2ng GIG + Solid State Society is some of my favorite anime ever. I hope they will make more like it someday after this horrible loli shit goes out of style.
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
The tempo felt slow as fuck.

It is not like I need SHOOTINGS AND ASSPLOSSIONS ALL THE TIME but at some points the films felt as if they died off for a few minutes. The soundtrack (as good as it was) didn't help either.
But the thing is, the Oshii films are actually full of shooting and assplosions. I literally do not get how people can find them boring and say that they don't need shooting and assplosions all the time -- yes, the movies have moments of significant downtime, but they do not go without payoff, and they are there for a purpose anyways; to build mood, immerse the viewer in the world that the films take place in, and the issues the characters face, and so on.
 

Draft

Member
The movies were my introduction to GITS. I liked the first one so much that I sought out the original comics. SAC is a much better animated representation of the comics. I still enjoy the movies, but they are somber to a fault. All of the humor from the comics is stripped away. It's a bunch of serious cyborgs sitting around being extremely serious.

I can't find the clip on Youtube, but when Batou takes on the two robots in the penultimate episode, that is the greatest action scene in anime.

edit: There's another fight where the Major gets seriously fucked up. I can't remember what episode, but at the end she's knocked over the enemy mech and is standing on its chest firing anti-tank rounds into the thing. So cool.
 

Lafiel

と呼ぶがよい
GITS SAC kind of get's worse with age for me.:/ it's atmosphere and aesthetics dosen't compare to the oshii GITS movies, plus the dialogue is dry and filled with annoying techobabble exposition to boot. (much like kamiyama other works). Still it's not exactly a bad show, and it's closet thing we get to a "good" cyberpunk television series, so it has that going for it, at least.
 

Suairyu

Banned
Fuck's sake Draft I said use the damn spoiler tags.

Talk about the later episodes conceptually without spoiler tags but anything specific gets hidden away. This thread is as much a recommendation for SAC virgins as it is people who've already watched it.

But the thing is, the Oshii films are actually full of shooting and assplosions. I literally do not get how people can find them boring and say that they don't need shooting and assplosions all the time -- yes, the movies have moments of significant downtime, but they do not go without payoff, and they are there for a purpose anyways; to build mood, immerse the viewer in the world that the films take place in, and the issues the characters face, and so on.
Well, even the moments of action in Ghost In The Shell have a more slowed tempo as well. That's not to say the action itself is slow, but the way it is presented is so... I don't know what the word I'm looking for here. A good comparison is Blade Runner - that film has lots of moments of action yet the overall pace is slow and considered. I could see how someone could find it a touch too slow, even if I personally think the pace is spot on.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
This thread makes me wonder if we'll ever get an Appleseed TV show as respectful to the original material as SAC. All movies have been awful so far.
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
It was mostly the "deeper" part of your post that I took issue with.

By virtue of having an episodic structure to work with, SAC naturally can "flesh out" some more world details.
Oshii's visual worldbuilding actually do more to flesh out the world details than SAC was capable of doing across all 52 episodes of it, I feel.

Also, random tangent here, but Solid State Society is one of the most offensive things I've seen in anime -- and I've seen 8 episodes of Bakemonogatari. It's like a very bad fanfilm by a fan of the Oshii movies. There is not a single original idea in the movie and Kamiyama does not have the chops to pull off the type of things Oshii does. Just, ugh. You'll understand when you watch it.
Well, even the moments of action in Ghost In The Shell have a more slowed tempo as well. That's not to say the action itself is slow, but the way it is presented is so... I don't know what the word I'm looking for here. A good comparison is Blade Runner - that film has lots of moments of action yet the overall pace is slow and considered. I could see how someone could find it a touch too slow, even if I personally think the pace is spot on.
That's because Oshii constructs proper action scenes with weight and impact instead of... other stuff. :>
 

Draft

Member
Fuck's sake Draft I said use the damn spoiler tags.

Well, even the moments of action in Ghost In The Shell have a more slowed tempo as well. That's not to say the action itself is slow, but the way it is presented is so... I don't know what the word I'm looking for here. A good comparison is Blade Runner - that film has lots of moments of action yet the overall pace is slow and considered. I could see how someone could find it a touch too slow, even if I personally think the pace is spot on.
Sorry.
 
But the thing is, the Oshii films are actually full of shooting and assplosions. I literally do not get how people can find them boring and say that they don't need shooting and assplosions all the time -- yes, the movies have moments of significant downtime, but they do not go without payoff, and they are there for a purpose anyways; to build mood, immerse the viewer in the world that the films take place in, and the issues the characters face, and so on.

The philosophical babble goes on a little too long and then it keeps going on some more and sometimes nothing happens for awhile with little explaination of why. I personally like the movies as a seperate universe but I do not consider them superior to the TV series at all.
 
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