JustAnotherOtaku
Member
Ahh, the memories of importing this when it came out in Japan. Absolutely loved it, one of the best RPG's of its generation. Would love to see an HD remaster or sequel.
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LTTP: The Last Story (before Mistwalker were wrapped in mobage)
- Thread starter Toadthemushroom
- Start date
I loved this game. I still hope it will get a port to a more popular system someday. It deserves the same chance that Xenoblade got to find a wider audience. (And I think the combat would benefit from Dual Screens but I'm sure the boat for a n3DS port is long sailed at this point)
I rember walking into a Gamestop around the week this game came out not knowing it had come out and managed to snag a collector's edition and blitzed through the game that entire week. I had a lot of problems with this game chief among them being that the game couldn't decide whether or not it wanted to be an Action RPG, A real-time strategy game or a cover based shooter. Granted when its just an Action game its fun with the occasional one-on-one fights that the game throws at you being highlights.
The visuals were a little more ambitious than the Wii could handle which hurt its performance regularly (the main town is especially guilty of this) and outside of the main theme, which is reused constantly, the music feels phoned in as far as Uematsu is concerned.
Syrenne, Lowell and the diversions from the main story (
) were charming, but the Primary cast and the Story were incredibly rote where not only did nothing surprise me, but when the plot twist does happen and
Admittedly my opinion of this game has only soured over time because of how often it was compared to Xenoblade as the superior game as well as the fact that it totally eclipsed Pandora's tower as the Wii's swan song, which I admit is incredibly petty on my part. But I genuinely hope you enjoy the game as I do think it is a game worth playing.
The visuals were a little more ambitious than the Wii could handle which hurt its performance regularly (the main town is especially guilty of this) and outside of the main theme, which is reused constantly, the music feels phoned in as far as Uematsu is concerned.
Syrenne, Lowell and the diversions from the main story (
the haunted mansion and the mysterious tavern especially
Dagran lays out his plan I was just infuriated with how contrived the whole affair was, even though I called it less than two hours in, which was then followed by a terrible final boss fight.
Admittedly my opinion of this game has only soured over time because of how often it was compared to Xenoblade as the superior game as well as the fact that it totally eclipsed Pandora's tower as the Wii's swan song, which I admit is incredibly petty on my part. But I genuinely hope you enjoy the game as I do think it is a game worth playing.
Toadthemushroom
Member
I'm sure he shopped around some concepts to platform holders and publishers, but they weren't interested in greenlighting them. Probably the same deal with stuff like Project Rap Rabbit - iNiS would have had no trouble selling Nintendo on the idea for a low- to mid-budget rhythm game last gen.
that's another thing I never understood.... why even have levelling up and stats in the game if they are basically meaningless? Could've done without that
oh I see... I may have to look it up on Youtube later, since I don't remember much about that fight... only that is was
your buddy
Zanza
Bending_Unit_22
Member
I don't know, I know the Wii U can play Wii games and maybe component cables are hard to come by with the Wii. I assume the Wii U price will be collapsing soon and would open other non-Wii games to you. My main point is that whatever it takes to play Endless Ocean 2 do it.
Toadthemushroom
Member
I'm five hours in, chapter 11, on the ship.
-The city! I've been exploring it without peeking at the minimap and it's great. It's well laid out and it doesn't take very long to travel about despite all its twists and turns. I like stumbling upon random sidequests too, like the one where you have to find 6 tokens hidden around the city, or the one with the group of bandits who steal from your wallet.
-The pacing! While the narrative can drag at times, the actual levels move by pretty quickly.
-The presentation! Yeah, it's still a great looking game. Even the depth of field is rather nice for objects on the outside of the camera's eye.
But...
The slash attack that you learn when infiltrating the bandits' warehouse early on is broken! Before the combat felt like a weave of reasonably balanced systems, all of which you had to consider at some point or another, but this slash move seems to destroy most enemies in seconds, and doesn't require any forward planning to pull off. Here's how 95% of battles have played out since I got it:
1) Activate gathering with L
2) Wait for an enemy to approach, or just run next to an enemy
3) Spam Y to hide
4) Spam A to slash
Battles are over in seconds, even those where Dagran shouts some tactic which the developers evidently want you to consider, and the levels are designed around. But the Slash move is just too powerful.
Is this something that keeps up throughout the rest of the game?
-The city! I've been exploring it without peeking at the minimap and it's great. It's well laid out and it doesn't take very long to travel about despite all its twists and turns. I like stumbling upon random sidequests too, like the one where you have to find 6 tokens hidden around the city, or the one with the group of bandits who steal from your wallet.
-The pacing! While the narrative can drag at times, the actual levels move by pretty quickly.
-The presentation! Yeah, it's still a great looking game. Even the depth of field is rather nice for objects on the outside of the camera's eye.
But...
The slash attack that you learn when infiltrating the bandits' warehouse early on is broken! Before the combat felt like a weave of reasonably balanced systems, all of which you had to consider at some point or another, but this slash move seems to destroy most enemies in seconds, and doesn't require any forward planning to pull off. Here's how 95% of battles have played out since I got it:
1) Activate gathering with L
2) Wait for an enemy to approach, or just run next to an enemy
3) Spam Y to hide
4) Spam A to slash
Battles are over in seconds, even those where Dagran shouts some tactic which the developers evidently want you to consider, and the levels are designed around. But the Slash move is just too powerful.
Is this something that keeps up throughout the rest of the game?
TheMoon
Member
Wii U price won't be collapsing since they stopped manufacturing a while ago and stock is now very very limited.
I don't remember this being an issue for me.
Hm, if I recall there was a glitch with the Final Boss that caused scanning to give mismatched favor text. Anyone know what the flavor text for the 3rd phase was?
Aside from that, the beginning of this game had one of the most spectacular failures of narrative I've ever seen in a game. The game tried, but it's writing (and combat system) needed massive improvement.
Aside from that, the beginning of this game had one of the most spectacular failures of narrative I've ever seen in a game. The game tried, but it's writing (and combat system) needed massive improvement.
I was pretty disappointed with the game, honestly. The character art was fantastic, but the actual world design was bland and lacking in contrast, with excess bloom. Music was also really disappointing and probably my least favorite Uematsu soundtrack. Felt more like something you'd hear in a western game. Story was pretty predictable but had some enjoyable moments (like the castle escape), and the voice acting was good. Having an RPG take place mostly in one large town was a cool idea, and I like how the town was a bit more interactive and less static than other RPGs (like being able to push and shove your way past townspeople or hit your head on the signs).
What really killed the game for me was the whole combat. Framerate frequently slowed to a crawl, I found the 'cover' system to be a bit fussy and tacked-on because hiding behind cover was the 'in' thing that generation. The camera in battle was also terrible, and I didn't like how every boss battle was so gimmicky.
Compared to the utterly spectacular Xenoblade, this was really disappointing. Even the 2 hours I spent with Pandora's Tower (I need to get back to that sometime) was better. And hell, to say I dislike mobile games would be an understatement but I had more fun even with Terra Battle!
What really killed the game for me was the whole combat. Framerate frequently slowed to a crawl, I found the 'cover' system to be a bit fussy and tacked-on because hiding behind cover was the 'in' thing that generation. The camera in battle was also terrible, and I didn't like how every boss battle was so gimmicky.
Compared to the utterly spectacular Xenoblade, this was really disappointing. Even the 2 hours I spent with Pandora's Tower (I need to get back to that sometime) was better. And hell, to say I dislike mobile games would be an understatement but I had more fun even with Terra Battle!
Toadthemushroom
Member
I'm at chapter 22 now. I'm glad my sneaky Slash tactics stopped being effective on most enemies once you get to safe land on the ship (the chapter about Yurick's past).
One thing that I really appreciate about this game is how everything feels like it has purpose - it's rather lean but what's there doesn't feel like it's there to tick a box. The optional side chapters impressed me with how much variety they had in addition to taking place in all new areas with their own stories, cutscenes and dialogue, every new boss encounter is a delight to look forward to, most battles take place in hand-crafted locations designed just for a skirmish.
Even the sidequests feel more meaningful, like how there's a child calling out for someone from atop a rooftop, then I eventually realise you can reach them by climbing a ladder behind the house, and you end up having to look for his cat...which involves literally chasing a cat down the city streets.
It's a really unique game. I still feel that the combat is half-baked and its systems can be easily sidestepped in a lot of cases, but the boss battles make up for it, and the soundtrack is pretty forgettable which is a surprise considering how good Lost Odyssey's was.
Oh and I didn't realise there was an Iwata Asks for it! Definitely going to read it at some point, it's three volumes long though! https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-As...ecting-Again-After-Eighteen-Years-234082.html
One thing that I really appreciate about this game is how everything feels like it has purpose - it's rather lean but what's there doesn't feel like it's there to tick a box. The optional side chapters impressed me with how much variety they had in addition to taking place in all new areas with their own stories, cutscenes and dialogue, every new boss encounter is a delight to look forward to, most battles take place in hand-crafted locations designed just for a skirmish.
Even the sidequests feel more meaningful, like how there's a child calling out for someone from atop a rooftop, then I eventually realise you can reach them by climbing a ladder behind the house, and you end up having to look for his cat...which involves literally chasing a cat down the city streets.
It's a really unique game. I still feel that the combat is half-baked and its systems can be easily sidestepped in a lot of cases, but the boss battles make up for it, and the soundtrack is pretty forgettable which is a surprise considering how good Lost Odyssey's was.
Oh and I didn't realise there was an Iwata Asks for it! Definitely going to read it at some point, it's three volumes long though! https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-As...ecting-Again-After-Eighteen-Years-234082.html
theofficefan99
Junior Member
I honestly loved the shit out of this game despite the bland story and would love a sequel/spiritual successor. I think about it so much. I'm just way too lazy to plug my Wii back in.
TheMoon
Member
There's also a sitdown between Takahashi and Sakaguchi:
Iwata Asks: In Conversation with Tetsuya Takahashi and Hironobu Sakaguchi:
http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-Ask...Years/1-Reunion-After-Eight-Years-211179.html
Toadthemushroom
Member
Do we know who programmed/developed the game?
I've only seen the developer listed as AQ Interactive, but that's probably because when it was released AQ Interactive had absorbed Artoon (who worked on Blue Dragon), FeelPlus (who worked on Lost Odyssey) and Cavia (who worked on NieR).
Was it a mixture of staff from those teams?
I've only seen the developer listed as AQ Interactive, but that's probably because when it was released AQ Interactive had absorbed Artoon (who worked on Blue Dragon), FeelPlus (who worked on Lost Odyssey) and Cavia (who worked on NieR).
Was it a mixture of staff from those teams?
TheMoon
Member
http://kyoto-report.wikidot.com/the-last-story
top part of the list is mostly Artoon, Ryo Nagashima was from cavia, a bunch in the middle/bottom have no other credits on mobygames.
Why just credit the programmers? Artoon developed the entire game. It's primarily Blue Dragon staff, but there are usually credits for other games among the leads.
Also Moby games is a much better source for third party games:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/wii/last-story/credits
TheMoon
Member
because he asked for programmers.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Amazing research, thanks both.
I didn't really mean to specifically ask for programmers, that was my bad. I just didn't want to say "developers" as it would feel unfair on Mistwalker and Nintendo. Basically AQ Interactive staff involved in the game.
Still, the programming is impressive for a game in this genre, the cover system, camera and collision detection are top notch. It's sad that I felt amazed at how I didn't have to "walk around" an exposed set of stairs in the castle courtyard and could just jump down and walk up them.
I didn't really mean to specifically ask for programmers, that was my bad. I just didn't want to say "developers" as it would feel unfair on Mistwalker and Nintendo. Basically AQ Interactive staff involved in the game.
Still, the programming is impressive for a game in this genre, the cover system, camera and collision detection are top notch. It's sad that I felt amazed at how I didn't have to "walk around" an exposed set of stairs in the castle courtyard and could just jump down and walk up them.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Edit: I found these posts from someone who worked on the game(!) in the old OT:
Interestingly, one of the programmers on the project (Andrew Ellem) also worked on Assassin's Creed 3 on ocean rendering and water interaction.
Interestingly, one of the programmers on the project (Andrew Ellem) also worked on Assassin's Creed 3 on ocean rendering and water interaction.
TheMoon
Member
same guy btw
(the 3 (E), 4 (A) made me curious, checked and found: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48571328&postcount=153 - unless that's where you got that from^^)
Toadthemushroom
Member
same guy btw
Aha, it wasn't that post, but Andrew Ellem was namedropped in an article about the tech behind AC3: https://www.fxguide.com/featured/assassins-creed-iii-the-tech-behind-or-beneath-the-action/
It's not really an insult or unfair when it's the truth. Mistwalker didn't make games before Terra Battle, it was a label for Sakaguchi's involvement. Artoon developed this game.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Wait what? Source? I really doubt that's true.
TheUzukiLives
Banned
One of my favorite games from last gen. What really got me to finish the game was all the sidequests and party interactions with each other. I was more invested in their story plots then I was with the main plot. I think my only two grips are with the two love interests and
the best bud being the big bad of the game. Mainly because it was so freaking obvious as soon as they showed that flashback and his character design. It didn't help that almost every scene with him was about becoming an knight and I figured that the Captain of the Knights was the one who razed their village and best bud was gonna get revenge on him. Although that whole turning into a death god thing was a good twist.
PotionBleue
Member
I'll forever remember Jirall from this game, that last psychotic event was both hilarious and a bit sad.
Schopenhauerian
Member
The Iwata Asks conversations involving Iwata, Sakaguchi, Uematsu and Fujisaka were really neat:
https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-As...ecting-Again-After-Eighteen-Years-234082.html
Iwata: Now, am I correct in thinking that you hadnt worked as a director since Final Fantasy V?
Sakaguchi: Yes, thats right. There was a period on VI when I was in a kind of grey area, where I was doing half the work of a director, but FF V is the last title where I was officially billed as the director.
Iwata: Now, Final Fantasy V was released in 1992, which means...
Sakaguchi: It means that I was the director for the first time in eighteen years. And it turns out being director really works best for me! (laughs)
[...]
Sakaguchi: Well, when I started, it was during the time of the Famicom when the graphics and sound meant that you were limited in what you could do.
Iwata: All that we could show on the screen were something like rough representations.
Sakaguchi: Thats right. We had to consider how we should convey the story to the players under such restrictions. Now that high-quality graphics rule supreme, you can reproduce what you want to communicate visually, but at the same time, I dont know how to put this, but theres an element thats slightly excessive about it all...
Iwata: The player ends up being able to see things youd have preferred not to show them.
Sakaguchi: You end up communicating too much to the player. This is why I now feel that were at a turning point. With this title, I pressed reset and returned to the basics of what a game is. I started by spending a lot of time considering just what it means to tell a story in a game. But it went beyond simply considering the story side of things I looked again at the fundamentals on the system side too.
[...]
Sakaguchi: Im a really big fan of [Fujisaka's] work, particularly his images of female characters. You know, that picture with [Calista] in profile... Well, if a woman like that really existed, Id be completely bowled over! (laughs)
Iwata: (laughs) I did hear several people at the office say: I think I might have fallen for her...
[...]
Iwata: Sakaguchi-san is bursting with this vast energy that serves to fire up those around him. The impression I get is of all this energy thats charged up and then unleashed over the course of the development process. Fujisaka-san, what was it like to witness this first-hand?
Fujisaka: It really is non-stop. No sooner had we finished one thing than hed be straight on to the next. Hes the first person Ive ever encountered who had this level of energy. I felt that I was being pulled along in his wake, or rather that I had to try to keep up.
[...]
Sakaguchi: That was part of it. To be honest, I think that the HD images which have become mainstream in the TV industry are, for me personally, still rather over the top for the world of video games. Theres a tendency for developers to allow all their energy to be diverted into maintaining the high quality of the graphics.
Iwata: While its necessary to be able to fully utilise those graphical capabilities in the future, if it can take up all of a developers time, other aspects of the game end up being neglected...
Sakaguchi: I made some of those calls myself, and of course the 3D art directors, including Fujisaka-san, also weighed in. Wed often have a drink and discuss the theory behind the game, deciding just what direction to take things in. People do tend to get the wrong idea about me if I dont ensure that everyone is on the same wavelength.
Iwata: In what ways would you say youre misunderstood?
Sakaguchi: People often think that what I really want are beautiful still images. As there were members of the team who had never worked with me before, I knew I needed to talk to them and ensure we were all on the same wavelength.
[...]
Sakaguch: No, I dont think you did. In fact, now you mention it, I dont think Ive ever seen your CV! (laughs) I only learned later that Uematsu-san had studied English literature...
Uematsu: I was just a regular music fan. I wasnt into classical music so much. Id listen to rock and pop on the radio late at night, and imagine having a career where I was involved in music. That was when I was in secondary school, and it felt like an impossible dream. I made demo tapes and sent them to various places, but it isnt an industry where you can just walk into a job. So when I met Sakaguchi-san, I hadnt studied music formally. Thats why I feel incredibly lucky to have been given this job. I feel that fate was somehow at work... You can study at a specialist college now, but back then, making music for video games wasnt an established career choice. I get the sense that people who were struggling to make a living through music ended up working in video games. I sense that there may have been a lot of people in this industry who had wanted to work in fields such as film, but their dreams hadnt quite worked out. This meant that, back then, there was a real desire to create something fresh and new in the medium of video games, to make up for the fact that things perhaps hadnt gone as originally planned.
[...]
Uematsu: Thats right. Hell always let you know when youre going wrong. Sakaguchi-san makes music himself, so he is very particular about this side of things. I find it very hard to pull the wool over his eyes! (laughs)...
Iwata: Weve spoken about how important the overall direction of the game is to you, Sakaguchi-san. But how precisely do you communicate your vision to Uematsu-san? It must be hard to explain something as abstract as that
Sakaguchi: It is. You can explain the game world, or the story, with your words, but without actual images, it can be tough to really communicate your vision on the overall direction. So Uematsu-san will rework the music again and again, while we play a kind of game of catch. But Im careful about not giving him too much in the way of specific instructions. I wont say things like: It should sound like this piece in this opera If you do that, he will end up feeling constrained by that particular piece of music and the end result wont be any good.
[...]
Sakaguchi: Well, theres something precise and methodical about him, a seriousness of purpose. I think thats something that comes out in his music. I just feel that were on the same wavelength
Iwata: It does sound like you share a similar set of values, which is why you can trust each other and understand where the other is coming from, while also being able to discuss problems with each other. I think its a really precious thing in the creative industries to maintain a close relationship while consistently producing results
Sakaguchi: I think that with music, there are those tunes that you like the instant you hear them, and then there are those slightly more unusual songs that some people will love, and others wont. I think that Uematsu-sans music can occasionally divide people, but there is always something insistent about the melodies. When I hear them, I want to make the effort to embrace this music.
Uematsu: Im very happy to hear you say that.
Sakaguchi: Ill be listening, and realise that some change has come over me. Ill even start to think that it might be a good idea to adapt the game to fit the music... For this title, I got Uematsu-san to write about forty pieces of music, and I feel that The Last Story itself changes as you listen to the music. Thats the power of Uematsu-sans melodies. Its not simply that the music is beautiful, its also the fact that his humanity comes across in them. They are instantly recognisable as his songs.
[...]
Uematsu: Certainly. For the first time in a long time, I found myself on the wrong track and really had a tough time of it. When Sakaguchi-san spoke with me about the project, I accepted readily, saying that if he would have me, Id do it. He asked me to start work on the main theme song, the battle music, and the music for the town. I went about working on it in the usual way and presented it to him And thats when I got back this really, really long email basically telling me: This is all wrong!
Sakaguchi: (laughs)
Iwata: So he didnt just tell you that you were on the wrong track. He told you that it was all wrong! (laughs)
Sakaguchi: And the email went on at length after that...
Uematsu: Right. With titles that Id worked on up to then, such as FF, Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon , I was conscious that they were very much in the classic RPG mould. But I knew that this wouldnt do this time round. It wasnt just a matter of creating a different style of music. I knew that I would need to go about fundamentally changing the way I approached the task
Iwata: So you realised that you would have no choice but to bite the bullet and press the reset button on the approach you had developed together over twenty-five years of collaboration...
Iwata: But in all the time youve worked together, that kind of incident has been extremely rare, hasnt it?
Uematsu: It had certainly been a long time since something like that had happened. When youve worked in the industry for over twenty years, you learn to keep things to yourself, even if youre not always completely happy...
Iwata: Im sure you got a sense of how much Uematsu-san had put into it. I really envy the relationship you have, which allows you to have this kind of exchange.