Jive Turkey
Unconfirmed Member
I still stand by my previous statement.GSG Flash said:
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
LTTP: Wind Waker
- Thread starter Prime crotch
- Start date
Hitler Stole My Potato said:
What is with this 'caving in' bullshit that's constantly spewed around all the time? It's like OoT and MM never existed or something. Besides, they 'caved in' too with PH.
TheGreatDave said:
Agreed. OoT has the perfect pacing in any of the 3D Zelda games imo. Playing it again, it's not as amazing as I thought when I first played it (obviously), but aside from the areas feeling small, I'd still say it stands up well (design wise).
Having said that, I enjoyed WW quite a bit. A bit funny since WW exceeded my expectations, whereas TP fell below. Funny how that works out.
LiquidMamba
Member
Nintendo should just use the SMG engine for the next Zelda. Playing a 3d Zelda at 60fps would be awesome.
Nexus Zero
Member
My favourite bit about
was how they were basically teasing you with how great the game could have looked. Palette wasted.
This is something that was perfected in Phantom Hourglass to the point I was really disappointed when you only got to use it once.
going to Hyrule Castle
This is something that was perfected in Phantom Hourglass to the point I was really disappointed when you only got to use it once.
Amir0x said:
Yeah I realize that the character design has nothing to do with cel shading. I know cel shaded graphics are ageless and I like cel shaded graphics, hell, I wouldn't want Viewtiful Joe to be anything but cel shaded, but still, I just don't like them for a console Zelda (main game, not sidequest), it has nothing to do with the graphics looking kiddy.
And yes I do like the graphics and art direction for Twilight Princess more and I would prefer the next Zelda to have that style of graphics. The textures are obviously uglier but you're going to have that problem with basically any Wii game that is using a realistic style over a cartoony style. It's just a personal preference.
Mato
Member
The game begins in the most promising way possible, the concept of leaving witha pirate ship to explore the seas is immensely exciting and windfall island is so very beautiful. But overall the game is too loose and misses way to many things for me to call it a masterpiece. Totally bittersweet in my opinion.
HylianScribe
Member
I remember graphic designers ripping The Wind Waker's visuals to shreds - saying how the effect masked the horrible models and was another facade Nintendo employed to mask a half-assed effort - and thinking how much I didn't really care...I mean, it doesn't matter how you did it, right? If the game looks good, I don't care if there is a low polygon count or whatever. Would anyone bitch if somehow Resident Evil 4 was revealed to use some trick to make it look good, and was "cheating" to get great visuals? No.
Visually, the game felt like playing an cartoon. I personally would have preferred more inspiration from certain anime visuals (even trying to replicate a Miyazaki film look would have been better in my opinion), but The Wind Waker, for its time, had really impressive art direction. It's a shame Nintendo killed any chance of the game getting the full praise it deserved for this by teasing fans with the realistic Zelda trailer at SpaceWorld and E3. Though, the game won an AIAS award for visuals.
Control wise, the addition of a true, free-roaming camera was the greatest addition ever. I can't say enough of how much it sucks to play The Wind Waker, and then trying to go back and play Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask...it's like, "Oh, no free camera...suckage".
I was not very happy with how Link moved. He seemed sluggish and respnsiveness was "looser" than the N64 predecessors. I could perform tight maneuvers (ie walking/jumping along narrow platforms) much more effectively in Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask. They also added the "slide" when Link tries to shift directions quickly. While this makes it more "realistic", it was a bit annoying.
Once I figured out how to "turbo-sail" using sail boosting (opening and closing your sail at a certain pace to go really fast), as well as the ability to warp, the sailing was more enjoyable.
Too much "hand-holding" occurred in the game. You were always told where to go next, you were always beeing spoon-fed information. The exploration edge the game had was lost almost immediately by pre-scripted events and the fact that by the time you can sail anywhere, you already have your objectives outlined. This is unlike Phantom Hourglass, where you do get to know sort-of where to go next, but once you arrive, it's not as easy as getting off the ship and going to the dungeon. The Wind Waker it was "go here, then go there" in black and white. Phantom Hourglass makes it so you "go here, but wait, you can't go further, go look around the nearby area for something". Basically, the only real exploration you could do was for side-quests or non-crucial stuff.
It was sad the game was rushed out. Another dungeon for the beginning, and another for the second half, would have helped the game go a long way. Three dungeons, then the Tower of the Gods halfway point, then three second half dungeons. Seven full dungeons, plus You-Know-Who's Tower, would have been basically eight full dungeons. The dungeons in The Wind Waker were also incredibly awesome, especially the Earth and Wind Temples. Co-op dungeons were awesome, and I wish there were more of these in future Zelda games.
Unfortunately, the Triforce portion near the end was too drawn out. I mean, in all honesty, the finding the "parts" portion sucked. Actually getting the maps was fun. They should have eliminated the need to "find" the Triforce shards in the ocean, and rather, had you find them at each of those places you found a chart.
The finale, as cool as it was, was too much like Ocarina of Time's finale. Though the way it "finished" was much better in The Wind Waker, I was still very displeased it was essentially a "clone" of the finale of Ocarina of Time. I mean, you even stab You-Know-Who in the head again...albeit in a different form. Zelda's also around to help you out again.
Visually, the game felt like playing an cartoon. I personally would have preferred more inspiration from certain anime visuals (even trying to replicate a Miyazaki film look would have been better in my opinion), but The Wind Waker, for its time, had really impressive art direction. It's a shame Nintendo killed any chance of the game getting the full praise it deserved for this by teasing fans with the realistic Zelda trailer at SpaceWorld and E3. Though, the game won an AIAS award for visuals.
Control wise, the addition of a true, free-roaming camera was the greatest addition ever. I can't say enough of how much it sucks to play The Wind Waker, and then trying to go back and play Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask...it's like, "Oh, no free camera...suckage".
I was not very happy with how Link moved. He seemed sluggish and respnsiveness was "looser" than the N64 predecessors. I could perform tight maneuvers (ie walking/jumping along narrow platforms) much more effectively in Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask. They also added the "slide" when Link tries to shift directions quickly. While this makes it more "realistic", it was a bit annoying.
Once I figured out how to "turbo-sail" using sail boosting (opening and closing your sail at a certain pace to go really fast), as well as the ability to warp, the sailing was more enjoyable.
Too much "hand-holding" occurred in the game. You were always told where to go next, you were always beeing spoon-fed information. The exploration edge the game had was lost almost immediately by pre-scripted events and the fact that by the time you can sail anywhere, you already have your objectives outlined. This is unlike Phantom Hourglass, where you do get to know sort-of where to go next, but once you arrive, it's not as easy as getting off the ship and going to the dungeon. The Wind Waker it was "go here, then go there" in black and white. Phantom Hourglass makes it so you "go here, but wait, you can't go further, go look around the nearby area for something". Basically, the only real exploration you could do was for side-quests or non-crucial stuff.
It was sad the game was rushed out. Another dungeon for the beginning, and another for the second half, would have helped the game go a long way. Three dungeons, then the Tower of the Gods halfway point, then three second half dungeons. Seven full dungeons, plus You-Know-Who's Tower, would have been basically eight full dungeons. The dungeons in The Wind Waker were also incredibly awesome, especially the Earth and Wind Temples. Co-op dungeons were awesome, and I wish there were more of these in future Zelda games.
Unfortunately, the Triforce portion near the end was too drawn out. I mean, in all honesty, the finding the "parts" portion sucked. Actually getting the maps was fun. They should have eliminated the need to "find" the Triforce shards in the ocean, and rather, had you find them at each of those places you found a chart.
The finale, as cool as it was, was too much like Ocarina of Time's finale. Though the way it "finished" was much better in The Wind Waker, I was still very displeased it was essentially a "clone" of the finale of Ocarina of Time. I mean, you even stab You-Know-Who in the head again...albeit in a different form. Zelda's also around to help you out again.
TheGreatDave
Banned
I liked the art style but I wouldn't want a complete re-run of it in a Wii Zelda. Keep it cell shaded perhaps but I want the game to look different visually. People often talk about the original artwork for the early game or Majora's Mask, that kind of style could work really well.
If it comes out looking like Wind Waker 2 I'll be disappointed, just like I wouldn't be with TP 2.
If it comes out looking like Wind Waker 2 I'll be disappointed, just like I wouldn't be with TP 2.
InsertCredit
Member
Thanks for this thread. Have it lying around here but never got further than 1-2 hours in. Time to really play it all through.
Hoe does it scale on hdtv's? If it's really bad ( I know it's not 16:9 ) I'll have to plug in my old crt again..
edit: I've got a pal cube, so only composite out.
Hoe does it scale on hdtv's? If it's really bad ( I know it's not 16:9 ) I'll have to plug in my old crt again..
edit: I've got a pal cube, so only composite out.
TheGreatDave
Banned
I played Wind Waker on a 32 inch LCD with RGB SCART and it looked fine. You'll never get it looking quite as nice as on the CRT but it's nothing you'll get too pissed off about.
I didn't really like WW when it first came out, but looking back I was way too harsh on it. OTOH I loved TP 9 months ago, but my opinion has been steadily dropping. WW just feels so alive, epic and fresh. I wish Nintendo had spent a little more time working on WW and tried to get it just right. One or two more dungeons, better sailing. I didn't really mind the triforce quest all that much, I did lots of sidequests and exploring during this time.
One thing that WW nailed that TP didn't was the feeling of depth that I got from the world. It felt like I could go sailing in a random direction, and come across some cool island, or a pirate fortress, or a ghost ship, or a submarine, or anything. TP felt shallow and dull in comparison.
The main annoyance I had with WW right from the start was that you couldn't go underwater. It seems like such a natural fit for a game that takes place on a, you know, FUCKING OCEAN. I know the ocean was rendered as a flat surface, but still, I would have loved some underwater caves and stuff. There was hardly any sea life too, how awesome would have it been to see a humongous whale or something every now and then?
WW had lots and lots of "hooooly shit" moments, even though most of them were over too quickly. Like the first time I came across one of those big twisters. I could see the depression in the water but it was too late to turn away. So awesome.
Ok, ONE more problem I had was that the ocean itself seemed really dead. No waves would ever hurt my ship or anything. I wanted some tsunamis, hurricanes, massive storms where it's all dark and I have to fight to get back to shore.
GIVE US WIND WAKER 2.
One thing that WW nailed that TP didn't was the feeling of depth that I got from the world. It felt like I could go sailing in a random direction, and come across some cool island, or a pirate fortress, or a ghost ship, or a submarine, or anything. TP felt shallow and dull in comparison.
The main annoyance I had with WW right from the start was that you couldn't go underwater. It seems like such a natural fit for a game that takes place on a, you know, FUCKING OCEAN. I know the ocean was rendered as a flat surface, but still, I would have loved some underwater caves and stuff. There was hardly any sea life too, how awesome would have it been to see a humongous whale or something every now and then?
WW had lots and lots of "hooooly shit" moments, even though most of them were over too quickly. Like the first time I came across one of those big twisters. I could see the depression in the water but it was too late to turn away. So awesome.
Ok, ONE more problem I had was that the ocean itself seemed really dead. No waves would ever hurt my ship or anything. I wanted some tsunamis, hurricanes, massive storms where it's all dark and I have to fight to get back to shore.
GIVE US WIND WAKER 2.
InsertCredit
Member
Thanks, looks like the art style pulls it off even at low resolutionsTheGreatDave said:
Doesn't deserve nearly the flak it gets. As been echoed already in this thread, the sailing can be tedious and the Tri-Force Collection quest was horrid. But the dungeon design was probably the best I've seen so far in the series. It was fantastic. Dragons Roost was flawlessly designed. Granted, I haven't played through TP yet though.
As far as the look goes. I liked it and thought it worked. But I think that has more to do with the wonderful art direction and not the actual cel shading itself.
As far as the look goes. I liked it and thought it worked. But I think that has more to do with the wonderful art direction and not the actual cel shading itself.
evilromero
Member
Visually, it's the only 3D Zelda that only stands up today (yes, I'm inlcuding TP). I think WW and a LttP are visual masterpieces.
TheGreatDave
Banned
SomeDude said:
Oh come on. Let's not bother even considering that as a valid statement.
evilromero
Member
You got it backwards. Okami was overpraised without merit while SotC was deserving of every bit of it. If I had to choose one game that gives any Zelda game a run for its money it would be SotC. It's okay, we all get it wrong sometimes.SomeDude said:
RiskyChris
Banned
GSG Flash said:
Grr, I'm getting angry at you! ಠ_ಠ
Go take a look at the LTTP Link.
Sir Alemeth
Member
I really liked Wind Waker as well, but one aspect KILLED the game for me...it was WAY TOO EASY. And as previously mentioned, many of the dungeons lacked depth. We need more OoT Water Temple dammit!!
TheGreatDave
Banned
I don't see how difficulty can affect too much of ones enjoyment from a game. As long as the game is long enough I'm happy never dying. Happier, actually.
Jon_Danger
Member
God I love this zelda game
It's graphical style allows it to hold up over time.
I really just loved this game
It's graphical style allows it to hold up over time.
I really just loved this game
RiskyChris
Banned
TheGreatDave said:
The problem is:
1) There is no punishment for falling/getting hit by enemies. Trial and Error becomes ridiculous (and I feel a Zelda game should require more thought than mindless trial).
2) Most enemies are completely trivialized by Parry.
Jon_Danger
Member
Sir Alemeth said:
I honestly didnt care about difficulty, I play games for the story. At least adventure games. Challenging gameplay is for FPS and other action-y games.
I really liked the fact that in WW i almost never died, it felt good, I felt challenged enough with puzzles.
It was enough for me.
TheGreatDave
Banned
RiskyChris said:
I don't really play Zelda for the combat, so it doesn't bother me. Valid complaints, just not something that I care about.
Jive Turkey
Unconfirmed Member
Are you people fucking retarded? Everybody complains about the water temple being too hard. OoT's water temple wasn't hard (save for Dark Link maybe). What it was was a trial of tedium.Sir Alemeth said:
Dragona Akehi
Retired
Jive Turkey said:
People who thought the Water Temple was difficult simply have poor 3D spatial reasoning ability. Pity, don't persecute.
Fantastic game, replaying it now. I wouldn't have thought so previously, but I like it better than TP. For one thing, the omission of side quests in TP seems glaring after dipping back into WW. I know people play Zelda for the dungeons, puzzle-solving, and general sense of exploration, but WW's side quests go a long way towards fleshing out the world and and it's characters. Looking back on TP, that world seems empty and it's characters one-dimensional (with the obvious exception of Midna). I can't think of one side quest in TP, just collect-athons and mini-games.
I really love the little things in WW: looting enemies with the grappling hook, disarming enemies and using their own weapons against them, the flight mechanic, the various uses for bait, Link's detailed expressions, even the ability to take pictures. I just hope Nintendo revisits this style of Zelda, both visually and gameplay-wise, for the next console iteration. Another console Zelda with the look and feel of WW and given the ample dev time of a TP would be a truly remarkable game.
I really love the little things in WW: looting enemies with the grappling hook, disarming enemies and using their own weapons against them, the flight mechanic, the various uses for bait, Link's detailed expressions, even the ability to take pictures. I just hope Nintendo revisits this style of Zelda, both visually and gameplay-wise, for the next console iteration. Another console Zelda with the look and feel of WW and given the ample dev time of a TP would be a truly remarkable game.
TheGreatDave
Banned
I just played a little of Twilight Princess, just because my Wii won't play PAL games any more and I couldn't be bothered hooking up my Gamecube. I was running through the field on horseback, with a fuckton of birds and enemies attacking me. I probably spent about 30 minutes just running around killing things.
Wind Waker doesn't have anything like that. I hadn't really thought about it before, but it lacks a level of excitement. I think we're all kind of looking back on the game more favourably because of it's art style and great moments, but really...Wind Waker is kinda boring for a lot of time you're playing. There's no excitement from travelling over the sea, jumping over the occasional barrel or firing a cannon. No instant gratification like finding a treasure chest without you having to fuck around with the grapple to pick it out from the sea. No fierce battles outside of the dungeons.
I plan on going back and playing it again soon. It is, to date, the only Zelda I've finished more than twice, so obviously I do like Wind Waker. But Twilight Princess does so many things better than it. 3 years from now we'll look back and remember it much more favourable than we do now.
Wind Waker doesn't have anything like that. I hadn't really thought about it before, but it lacks a level of excitement. I think we're all kind of looking back on the game more favourably because of it's art style and great moments, but really...Wind Waker is kinda boring for a lot of time you're playing. There's no excitement from travelling over the sea, jumping over the occasional barrel or firing a cannon. No instant gratification like finding a treasure chest without you having to fuck around with the grapple to pick it out from the sea. No fierce battles outside of the dungeons.
I plan on going back and playing it again soon. It is, to date, the only Zelda I've finished more than twice, so obviously I do like Wind Waker. But Twilight Princess does so many things better than it. 3 years from now we'll look back and remember it much more favourable than we do now.
Worst. Zelda. Ever.
Seriously, Wind Waker nearly killed the franchise for me. It really was "kiddy" in every way, from the look to the difficulty. The biggest offenses were the lack of dungeons and the Triforce treasure hunt, which even the developers apologized for. Twilight Princess is _much_ better, though my favorite still stands as Ocarina of Time.
Seriously, Wind Waker nearly killed the franchise for me. It really was "kiddy" in every way, from the look to the difficulty. The biggest offenses were the lack of dungeons and the Triforce treasure hunt, which even the developers apologized for. Twilight Princess is _much_ better, though my favorite still stands as Ocarina of Time.
Jive Turkey
Unconfirmed Member
Yes I know you're right...I just get annoyed when I hear people call the water temple hard when the default answer is either 1) look at the map! 2) change the water level! or 3) look up!Dragona Akehi said:
I just snapped. Forgive me.
the thoroughbred
Member
Scribble said:
I'd like an interviewer, to tell Anouma and Miyamoto-san, this. They still feel, they bitterness regarding WW and to a lesser extent Twilight Princess. I think they would get the "ahead-of-its-time" vibe. They really need to be told, otherwise we may end up with just software, and while I think they are very talented at all the software they have made so far, I still would look forward to some of their masterpieces.
the_zombie_luke
Member
RiskyChris said:
It also makes finding heart pieces a waste of time. TP didn't have very hard bosses either. It doesn't have to be Ninja Gaiden hard, but it could have a difficulty select at least. But anyway, my biggest beef with Wind Waker is that most of the islands were empty patches of land. Link to the Past had crazy cool stuff to find
like the magic cape
the thoroughbred
Member
Jon_Danger said:
Quite right. Zelda is all about puzzles, not combat. I reckon the cave of Ordeals, was literally a fan service for those that think the series is too easy.
Reasons:-
- Its not required to finish the game
- there really is no reason for it to be there.
- too many fans said "the series is to easy"
- if they made the actual game that hard, then it'd isolate the main audience (new Zelda gamers)
- the rest of the game is a fan service too. This is not criticism.
the_zombie_luke
Member
Link to the Past didn't have easy combat at all and Majora's Mask had some really tough battles too. Both the puzzles and the combat should be intense.
TheGreatDave
Banned
the thoroughbred said:
Wind Waker had it's own little Cave of Ordeals-like section too.
RiskyChris
Banned
the_zombie_luke said:
Seriously, does anyone remember how difficult some bosses in LTTP were?
How about darknuts from LoZ?!
Jive Turkey
Unconfirmed Member
The only boss I remember being hard in LTTP was that fuzzy worm/caterpillar boss in...Turtle Rock? He was hard because his movements were so random and the bastard got pretty fast by the end of the fight.RiskyChris said:
TheGreatDave
Banned
kylej said:
I can't think of any aspect where Wind Waker beats TP outside of art style.
_Alkaline_
Member
kylej said:
This post is wrong and full of incorrect, false information.
RiskyChris
Banned
TheGreatDave said:
The biggest improvement TP has over WW (incredible Wii aiming aside) is the reduction of casting time for the most often used "spells."
In WW
changing the direction of the wind was a ridiculously long animation
In TP (minor spoiler)
Changing to/from wolf form was a snap of the fingers
The darknuts in LoZ are easy. Stay just over a block away from them, and you'll be able to hit them. The rooms they appear in also usually have blocks you can hide behind and also use to attack them from without a chance of getting hit.RiskyChris said:
No, the real pissers in LoZ are the blue wizzarobes if you ask me.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
I personally think it's the best 3D Zelda.