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M/KB makes modern games too easy

N

Negotiator

Member
This discussion reminds me of another one, where some Respawn devs were discussing the possibility of streaming becoming mainstream/ubiquitous in the future and negatively affecting video game design.

Shooters weren't mainstream in consoles 20 years ago...

Then again, I know many people who prefer slower-paced games, since they've become older and their reflexes aren't as good as they used to be.

Increasing AI difficulty is technically possible (even with the Jaguar CPU) and next-gen consoles will offer machine learning for even more sophisticated AI.

The question is, how would the average gamer feel if SP games became as difficult/annoying as PvP ones where you fight against "human AI"? Would they embrace the challenge?
 
Coflash

Coflash

Member
M/KB makes modern games too easy
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In fact, when it comes to modern game design, I think m/kb(mouse specifically) sort of breaks the game by being too good. Games today are just designed around the abilities and limitations of a controller.
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Precisely

Modern games being designed around controllers makes using M/KB too easy.

With RDR2 hitting PC next month, they should (IMO) add more mechanics to combat how easy shooting is going to be. If you play GTAV on PC you might have seen a mod called Rippler's Realism that adds recoil, bullet spread, more damage to and from AI (among a tonne of other changes). It makes it a lot better. It's like shooting fish in a barrel otherwise.
 
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Shifty

Shifty

Member
bilderberg said:
perfect example. Same goes for the pc versions of RE4 and 5 when using a mouse.
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RE4 and 5 are extreme examples though, given that their combat is designed around a primarily melee-based enemy roster and heavily limited mobility while using a weapon.

Using a mouse or IR pointer significantly cuts down on the positioning and spacing dynamic that combination creates, which isn't present in your average stick-vs-mouse shooter use case.

Heck, they even went so far as to change how aiming works when running in pointer mode- you get an onscreen reticle instead of the trickier-to-use laser sight, thus neutering another element of the challenge. That's a mechanical change, and more than just the natural difference in precision between a stick and a pointer.
 
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Berserking Guts

Berserking Guts

Member
You design your game around the controls they're made for, whether thats a DS4, or a m/kb. Even shit like the N64 controller can produce gems.
 
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s34ab

s34ab

Banned
Maybe developers should put more thought into their game if me using a modern control mechanic makes the game 'too easy.'
 
Z

ZenTheShogun

Member
Are people who are dismissing his point and mocking him just trolling? It's an absolute fact that FPS or TPS games are MUCH easier using a KB/M. As another poster mentioned because most games are designed with a controller in mind the pace is slowed down to the point that using a KB/M breaks the game - especially if you're used to faster paced PC games like Quake or Doom.
 
s34ab

s34ab

Banned
ZenTheShogun said:
Are people who are dismissing his point and mocking him just trolling? It's an absolute fact that FPS or TPS games are MUCH easier using a KB/M. As another poster mentioned because most games are designed with a controller in mind the pace is slowed down to the point that using a KB/M breaks the game - especially if you're used to faster paced PC games like Quake or Doom.
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I don't think Doom was designed around controllers.

 
SlashBringingHasher

SlashBringingHasher

Banned
obviously. MK and mouse turn inherently supposedly 3d controls into 2d controls. mouse is a 2d control. while since controller pads are spherical they are more 3d.
 
-Arcadia-

-Arcadia-

Banned
I observed this phenomenon being talked about with the Resident Evil 2 Remake, which, I understand, became less scary and intense with a mouse and keyboard.

It’s interesting. What do you do when an input is ‘too good’, and so much so, it’s adversely affecting your game design?

I don’t think it’s just a ‘sticks are shit’ argument (although for shooters, they pretty much are), but that that kind of perfect aim on a flat mousepad field, doesn’t even exist in real life. It’s again, my understanding, that nobody could shoot like that with an actual gun.

I wonder if PC gamers would be okay with settings to handicap the mouse a little? Sway, bloom, etc. I know, I know what it sounds like, and it’s okay if it’s not these specific solutions, but I’m just trying to start the conversation to what could be done.
 
lyan

lyan

Member
ZenTheShogun said:
Are people who are dismissing his point and mocking him just trolling? It's an absolute fact that FPS or TPS games are MUCH easier using a KB/M. As another poster mentioned because most games are designed with a controller in mind the pace is slowed down to the point that using a KB/M breaks the game - especially if you're used to faster paced PC games like Quake or Doom.
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People read threads?
 
Woo-Fu

Woo-Fu

Banned
Sounds like modern games must suck compared to previous eras. It isn't like M&K have had a revolution in capability. Might want to talk to developers.

The proper opponent in an MP shooter is another human, not a bot, and that's the real reason the PvE portion of modern shooters is mostly garbage, when it even exists. Humans get better, bots don't(unless they cheat).

Breakpoint in particular is a bad example because the AI doesn't even work sometimes. Does it really matter what the control scheme is when the enemy is running face first into a wall? Does it really matter what the control scheme is when you have 4 enemy right next to each other and you can shoot them one at a time without any reaction from the ones standing right next to the target?

Basically what is needed is some sort of good AI middleware. The development time for an individual game isn't nearly long enough to build competent AI from scratch, considering the complexity of modern game environments.

tldr; M&K don't make modern games too easy. Modern developers make modern games too easy.
 
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Lanrutcon

Lanrutcon

Member
ZenTheShogun said:
Are people who are dismissing his point and mocking him just trolling? It's an absolute fact that FPS or TPS games are MUCH easier using a KB/M. As another poster mentioned because most games are designed with a controller in mind the pace is slowed down to the point that using a KB/M breaks the game - especially if you're used to faster paced PC games like Quake or Doom.
Click to expand...

This thread is like a bunch of people watching the special Olympics and then complaining on Twitter that normal sports are unfair. How much of a fucking idiot do you have to be to complain about a hammer being better at driving in nails than a screwdriver? What platform do you think FPS games came from? How much would you cry if you knew how much you were being carried by the aim assist? Why is the OP using Breakpoint, a game publicly criticized for its braindead enemies, for his argument? Or Destiny 2, a game with INSANE aim assist just to get controller even remotely viable (and they still sucked so bad at the first raids the devs had to step in)?

Watching console players play FPS games is like watching old people drive, and the OP is an old man shaking his cane at everyone passing him by at normal speeds.
 
D

DeltaPolarBear

Member
One should not need to wrestle with the controls of the game in order to enjoy themselves.

The game's difficulty should be related to what is in the game itself, not based on bad controllers. You could rig first person shooters to control via a Rock Band drumkit, but other than making a curious Youtube video it doesn't make for a good game experience.

If the game is "too easy" with a mouse and keyboard, it just meant the game was made easier because the developer assume the player is handicapped as controller users.
An example is the two different versions of Overwatch. PC and Console are literally incompatible, because they are actually different games under the hood.

The M/K control doesn't make the game too easy; any more than playing it with a Trackball makes it too hard. M/K is simply superior as controls for many games, though obviously fighting games are one of the notable exceptions.
 
M

Mackers

Member
Coflash said:
If you play GTAV on PC you might have seen a mod called Rippler's Realism that adds recoil, bullet spread, more damage to and from AI (among a tonne of other changes). It makes it a lot better. It's like shooting fish in a barrel otherwise.
Click to expand...

And if you play GTAV on a controller it literally locks onto the nearest enemy for you when your press L2. Same with CoD.

Dont get me wrong, I play all single player games on controller even on PC. But let's not pretend it's the ultimate test of skill. Even though OP is correct when he says games have slowed down over the years, it isnt because that's just how games went, it's because of controllers. And even then games have to compensate for them.
 
Keihart

Keihart

Member
That is why playing with mouse and keyboard is for nerds...and gormless stoners of course.

In all seriousness tho, i kinda agree that lots of games are designed around a controller and i find this to be a pro for me because i despise sitting in the PC in the same position that at work to play a game, can do it sometimes but prefer not to. I would very much prefer to have standardized inputs in my games and force everyone to use my preferred input, but this is barely sometimes possible in the console environment and not even that much now since there are companies that sell specialized M/K sets for consoles
 
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Coflash

Coflash

Member
Mackers said:
And if you play GTAV on a controller it literally locks onto the nearest enemy for you when your press L2. Same with CoD.
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I wouldn't know as I never did that in IV/V, I couldn't stand it in the PS2 era GTAs and I can't stand it now. But even then, I don't see how comparing mechanics/autoaim is the same as comparing control methods

If you free aim in both, one is significantly easier
 
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bilderberg

bilderberg

Member
Lanrutcon said:
This thread is like a bunch of people watching the special Olympics and then complaining on Twitter that normal sports are unfair. How much of a fucking idiot do you have to be to complain about a hammer being better at driving in nails than a screwdriver? What platform do you think FPS games came from? How much would you cry if you knew how much you were being carried by the aim assist? Why is the OP using Breakpoint, a game publicly criticized for its braindead enemies, for his argument? Or Destiny 2, a game with INSANE aim assist just to get controller even remotely viable (and they still sucked so bad at the first raids the devs had to step in)?

Watching console players play FPS games is like watching old people drive, and the OP is an old man shaking his cane at everyone passing him by at normal speeds.
Click to expand...

A more appropriate analogy would be being seeing Usain Bolt proud of himself for winning the special Olympics. Take your pick of any console game played on pc with m/kb if you don't like my examples. I used Borderlands and Gears later on as well, and highlighted Doom and Wolfenstein as the exception. And i've must have said this five times in this thread at this point, but i'm not anti m/kb. I only use a m/kb when playing multiplayer games and for exclusive pc shooters made with a m/kb in mind. But your standard console shooter being played on pc with m/kb is game breaking and not fun.
 
S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
WTF I HAVE SKILL IT IS MORE THAN POINTING AT THINGS WITH MY MOUSE!PLAYING WITH A CONTROLLER ISN'T A HANDICAP AT ALL WHEN PLAYING SHOOTERS!

Okay how so?

UH FUCK OFF RETARD!


QaY2q9D.jpg

lol calm down
inb4 "What about auto aim"?
Games that aren't dogshit have an option to turn off auto aim.
 
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DynamiteCop!

DynamiteCop!

Banned
bilderberg said:
A more appropriate analogy would be being seeing Usain Bolt proud of himself for winning the special Olympics. Take your pick of any console game played on pc with m/kb if you don't like my examples. I used Borderlands and Gears later on as well, and highlighted Doom and Wolfenstein as the exception. And i've must have said this five times in this thread at this point, but i'm not anti m/kb. I only use a m/kb when playing multiplayer games and for exclusive pc shooters made with a m/kb in mind. But your standard console shooter being played on pc with m/kb is game breaking and not fun.
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An appropriate analogy would be saying that by using a controller you're handicapped?

Okay...
 
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S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
It is worth noting that devs could implement m/kb support on consoles if they felt like it. RIP Dreamcast.
 
bilderberg

bilderberg

Member
DynamiteCop! said:
He doesn't need to, this has run its course. It's been explained numerous times you'd just rather fallback on a no true scotsman fallacy.
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no it hasn't. their hasn't been one point anyone's made i haven't shut down. Designing a shooter for gamepads isn't just "slap some aim assist on it and you're done" it encompasses everything about the way you design enemies, levels, a.i., etc. I've already provided examples of games and specific scenarios that prove this, no one has actually countered that this isn't the case.
 
Ogbert

Ogbert

Member
K/M is vastly superior, but I'll often play with controller, just so I don't feel like I'm sat at work.
 
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