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[kammy]

I like how people refer to programmers, who bust their asses working 50+ hours a week, "lazy".

Everyone calling developers lazy...SHUT. THE. ****. UP.

If they cant extract the same performance out of both systems then they are lazy because they have no pride in their work. Then again this is EA, they're just happy with the paycheck.

 

[Pimpbaa]

The problem with V-Sync being one of the things that gets enabled in most console games as standard is that you don't get the in-betweens (45fps for example). But you don't get a degraded picture either (screen tearing). So there's problably a lot of games out there that get the 30fps treatment, even though they problably run a good 70% of the time at 60fps. It's just that from a polish standpoint it's of common acceptance that having a similar framerate a 100% of the time is a more viable option. It's possible that this is indeed the case for the PS3 in regards to Madden 08. They can have it running at 60fps alot of the time, but having it dip a lot of times breaks the gameplay tempo completely so they'd rather have it play consistently at 30fps.

You do if you use triple buffering.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Please stop posting.

Stop posting the truth?

 

[Animal]

Multiple Cell processors just wont work in a gaming environment...I thought this well understood*...to say that "everyone thinks...", then give that rationale...its just a big fat NO for me


* If it was PS3 would do it, because afterall, that was the initial plan

It is one cell processor with multiple vector units. Alright, i shouldn't have used "everyone thinks" and I should of used "many think". The Cell processor was designed with the gaming environment in mind.

 

[deftangel]

Did anyone confirm this or is it still just a rumor though?

Back on topic: once EA has a fully optimised PS3 engine I'm pretty sure they'll have madden running at 60fps. The question is: how motivated are they to do it?

Back when they originally started designing the CELL in 2001 I'm sure they were looking at it that way and might have even said as much at an E3 one time. The RSX was certainly a late addition to the design though. A lot of people think that's why the essentially got a PC GPU as opposed to something more customised like Xenos.

The best looking PS3 games will be those that leverage the SPU's to do some of the work of the RSX.

 

[FormulaOne]

Stop posting the truth?

If only he knew it.

 

[Pimpbaa]

It is one cell processor with multiple vector units. Alright, i shouldn't have used "everyone thinks" and I should of used "many think". The Cell processor was designed with the gaming environment in mind.

It is a Power PC cpu with multiple vector units.

 

[Pimpbaa]

If only he knew it.

He does. The RSX is a Geforce 7 class GPU retooled for the PS3. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

[Animal]

It is a Power PC cpu with multiple vector units.

I did not know the CELL was POWER PC based. Are you sure about this? You are sure you're not confusing the it with the XBOX 360 processor?

EDIT: Ah yes you are indeed correct, the main controller of the Multiple vector units is indeed a basic POWER architecture processor.

 

[Kafel]

60 FPS is too much by the way.

 

[Pimpbaa]

I did not know the CELL was POWER PC based. Are you sure about this? You are sure you're not confusing the it with the XBOX 360 processor?

EDIT: Ah yes you are indeed correct, the main controller of the Multiple vector units is indeed a basic POWER architecture processor.

IBM has their hands in all 3 consoles this gen. Must be rakin in crazy amounts of money.

 

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

60 FPS is too much by the way.

Well this is a new one.

 

[Klocker]

Ok so it compares to a PC with shared graphics memory, which is really not optimal and means the components weren't used to their full potential.

As for the PS3, from what I understand, a few things make it more difficult:

- The "general purpose" part of cell is less efficient than the general purpose units of Xenos. If you take generic 360 code and run it on PS", performance will be less. To use the power of cell, you have to distribute the execution of your code in threads on SPUs. But SPUs are not general purpose units, they're very optimised for vectorised floating point calculations. They're not very good at branching and they don't have direct access to the memory so it means you've got to feed their cache memory all the time to keep them busy. If you add to this the 2 separated memory banks, you spend a lot of time moving memory arround on the PS3. This takes some specific and I guess complex code.

- The GPU doesn't seem quite as powerful as the one in the 360 (which is a fully custom design, very good at shading, and with 10Mo of integrated high badwith memory that helps). So PS3 developpers might have to take some of the geometry stuff done on the GPU on the 360 and have it execute on one of the Cell's SPUs which are very good at it.

- Memory is reserved by the OS in both XDR and GDR (graphic) memory making the total available memory on the PS3 smaller than on the 360.

Once again this doesn't mean the PS3 is less powerful overall, but that it's so different architecturaly from the 360 that porting is probably difficult.

All this is based from my understanding of what I've read on sites like Beyond3D (which have debated this over and over) so I might have got some stuff wrong though...

pretty much dead on post and bolded is important to understand about the Cell and how it and the SPUs are actually used in games just to do stuff that 360 can do on the GPU. (link to dev comments)

 

[White Man]

If they cant extract the same performance out of both systems then they are lazy because they have no pride in their work. Then again this is EA, they're just happy with the paycheck.

What a completely misguided and ignorant point of view. So do you mean that if Madden 2008 were in development for the 360 and PS1, if the game wasn't identical it's because of lazy devs? News flash: EA has had a full extra year to smooth things over on the 360, engine-wise. There's nothing lazy about this at all. Madden games have short dev cycles. This is the way the cookie crumbles.

 

[MassiveAttack]

What a completely misguided and ignorant point of view. So do you mean that if Madden 2008 were in development for the 360 and PS1, if the game wasn't identical it's because of lazy devs? News flash: EA has had a full extra year to smooth things over on the 360, engine-wise. There's nothing lazy about this at all. Madden games have short dev cycles. This is the way the cookie crumbles.

Totally agree. Madden 2009 will be running at 1080p@60fps on PS3.

 

[RBH]

60 FPS is too much by the way.

What? :lol

 

[Decado]

What a completely misguided and ignorant point of view. So do you mean that if Madden 2008 were in development for the 360 and PS1, if the game wasn't identical it's because of lazy devs? News flash: EA has had a full extra year to smooth things over on the 360, engine-wise. There's nothing lazy about this at all. Madden games have short dev cycles. This is the way the cookie crumbles.

Aren't you saying the same thing? Lazy devs or devs who aren't putting the resources needed into development. One in the same, AFAIC.

 

[Blackace]

If they cant extract the same performance out of both systems then they are lazy because they have no pride in their work. Then again this is EA, they're just happy with the paycheck.

well it isn't always the devs fault.. there is this thing called a shipping date.. so yeah they aren't just being lazy.. .

 

[fortified_concept]

What a completely misguided and ignorant point of view. So do you mean that if Madden 2008 were in development for the 360 and PS1, if the game wasn't identical it's because of lazy devs? News flash: EA has had a full extra year to smooth things over on the 360, engine-wise. There's nothing lazy about this at all. Madden games have short dev cycles. This is the way the cookie crumbles.

If it wasn't a damn sports game with just good graphics I'd agree with you. But since it is, I doubt EA as a company did the best they could with the time they had to achieve 60fps.

edited to make more sense. I need sleep.

 

[White Man]

Aren't you saying the same thing? Lazy devs or devs who aren't putting the resources needed into development. One in the same, AFAIC.

No. Saying "lazy devs" implies that there are shitty people making the game. I am saying that the people making the game just don't have enough time. Being that Madden games rely on yearly cycles, there's really no way that can be fixed.

I really doubt EA did the best they could for that time period to make it 60fps.

Then say it's EA's fault, not the fault of "lazy devs." The developers probably have little leeway when it comes to dates for Madden.

 

[LukeSmith]

If if wasn't a damn sports game with just good graphics I'd agree with you. But since this is Madden I really doubt EA did the best they could for that time period to make it 60fps.

What does this even mean?

 

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

What does this even mean?

 

[fortified_concept]

Then say it's EA's fault, not the fault of "lazy devs." The developers probably have little leeway when it comes to dates for Madden.

Well it's one of these phrases that gets stuck and you use it without even thinking what exactly you're saying. Afterall noone here dislikes the devs themselves, it's EA's tactics they hate. I think that by "lazy devs" everyone implies that it's the publisher's fault just like I do most of the time. Anyway I'm going to sleep now and I hope this post made sense.

http://home.comcast.net/~pocketfudge/ali24mp.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

the stalker is back

 

[Animal]

You need to be pationate to be a video game programmer. It's about as complex as it gets as far as coding goes. At every step of the way you are very prowd of what you have accomplished and it usually gives you lots of motivational fuel to keep going and going untill your imagination's content. I have yet to meet a lazy game programmer/developper. I would have to say that the business side of things is responsible for poor games.

I have made several gaming projects as a computer science student and I always want to take it further, makes things look better, increase the framerate, etc. The only thing that stops me is time. And when your in business, time is money.

And lets not kid ourselves people, "You are in business to make money" as they say.

 

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

the stalker is back

You better go cry to a mod and tell them that I posted a pic! Fly like the wind boy!

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

This is still going on? Go play some games, fools!

 

[lordmrw]

pationate

Not that I'm making fun of you or anything, but that's the first time I've ever seen passionate spelled like that. I got a nice chuckle out of it.

 

[FormulaOne]

He does. The RSX is a Geforce 7 class GPU retooled for the PS3. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest otherwise.

Considering the garbage spewed, I would look elsewhere for the truth. As for the RSX, regardless of what you think it is, you don't.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Considering the garbage spewed, I would look elsewhere for the truth. As for the RSX, regardless of what you think it is, you don't.

Links to proof otherwise or shut up.

 

[Maxwell House]

It won't matter for the casuals in terms of affecting purchases on release because the commercials will show the best footage and won't mention this, but it will matter in the long run.

I know MS isn't the publisher, but I get the feeling MS is going to try to make sure the public knows that Madden 360 runs at 60 fps while Madden PS3 runs at 30 fps. I am not sure how they will do that, but I think they will.

And it will become very well known among the Madden fanbase. Madden players are a pretty hardcore lot.

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

I was under the impression that "lazy devs" was a GAF meme used for crying foul when 2 skus are not equivalent and obviously (by GAF logic, naturally) not due to hardware restrictions, but rather development cycle restrictions - time, money, code base, i.e. Madden running at 30fps on PS3. I'm aware some take it seriously and literally, but most don't, right?

 

[Maxwell House]

If its a solid 30 fps its not going to matter one bit. Then again 1up is the enquire of the gaming media so you cant take anything they say at face value.

So you are saying there is no difference between 30 fps and 60 fps?

 

[MassiveAttack]

I know MS isn't the publisher, but I get the feeling MS is going to try to make sure the public knows that Madden 360 runs at 60 fps while Madden PS3 runs at 30 fps. I am not sure how they will do that, but I think they will.

And it will become very well known among the Madden fanbase. Madden players are a pretty hardcore lot.

It will be deeply embarrassing for Sony in any scenario.

 

[Maxwell House]

If they cant extract the same performance out of both systems then they are lazy because they have no pride in their work. Then again this is EA, they're just happy with the paycheck.

I guess the guys at 2K sports are lazy too, and take no price in their work. 2k football is 60fps on 360 and 30 fps on PS3 as well. This isn't just EA.

 

[Striker]

I guess the guys at 2K sports are lazy too, and take no price in their work. 2k football is 60fps on 360 and 30 fps on PS3 as well.

That's what I don't get.

Posters bashing EA meanwhile APF is also different.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

And it will become very well known among the Madden fanbase. Madden players are a pretty hardcore lot.

Yea, Maddenheads are freaks. People have posted in this thread that it ain't a big deal in the long run, but I can very easily see the fans I know turning in a PS3 for a 360 outright if they notice a preferable difference. Works both ways though.

I was under the impression that "lazy devs" was a GAF meme used for crying foul when 2 skus are not equivalent and obviously (by GAF logic, naturally) not due to hardware restrictions, but rather development cycle restrictions - time, money, code base, i.e. Madden running at 30fps on PS3. I'm aware some take it seriously and literally, but most don't, right?

It's a meme born out of some idiots' damage control that seems to have been adopted by even dumber people. Move on to "Yet to tap into the power of cell" people, please.

 

[ypo]

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/178/reviews/938065_20070628_screen005.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/178/reviews/938065_20070628_screen002.jpg

 

[FormulaOne]

Links to proof otherwise or shut up.

This thread, as you, need to shut it.

 

[TheDuce22]

That's what I don't get.

Posters bashing EA meanwhile APF is also different.

Its easier to blame it on lazy devs if you completely ignore APF2K8 and almost every other 3rd party game. Whats not to get?

 

[Zep]

How does Nba2k7 run @ 60fps on PS3 and APF doesn't? And remember, one was a launch title.

 

[Maxwell House]

How does Nba2k7 run @ 60fps on PS3 and APF doesn't? And remember, one was a launch title.

NBA = 10 players on screen at once

NFL = 22 players on screen at once

 

[Zep]

Yea, thats the simple answer...but 2k should be able to get this moving @ 60fps. The game isnt what you'd call a graphical beast.

And I guarantee Madden's PS3 team size>>>>>2k's APF PS3 team size

 

[Animal]

Not that I'm making fun of you or anything, but that's the first time I've ever seen passionate spelled like that. I got a nice chuckle out of it.

very tired + over a decade of french education can really screw your english up.:lol

 

[Decado]

No. Saying "lazy devs" implies that there are shitty people making the game. I am saying that the people making the game just don't have enough time. Being that Madden games rely on yearly cycles, there's really no way that can be fixed.

I don't really think people who say "lazy devs" really mean it literally. People work too hard in this industry. They either aren't very talented, or aren't given enough resources.

As for the "no way it can be fixed", that is total rubbish. More resources (ie. people). That'd do it. EA are just really friggin cheap and have rather small development teams for the number of platforms they push stuff out for.

 

[Raistlin]

pretty much dead on post and bolded is important to understand about the Cell and how it and the SPUs are actually used in games just to do stuff that 360 can do on the GPU. (link to dev comments)

Is that guy a dev? I haven't really heard any devs say that they've been using CELL to do graphics just to keep up with 360.

The only titles I've heard about using CELL for graphics are Warhawk (clouds) and Lair (water, etc.)

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Sounds awesome.

...
...Nevermind I got nothing. God save the Queen I guess.

 

[Scottlarock]

This thread, as you, need to shut it.

don't like the thread or him? how about countering his posts instead of 'shut it'?

 

[Warm Machine]

NBA = 10 players on screen at once

NFL = 22 players on screen at once

Don't forget larger stadiums, more crowd, skies, and grass. (not that football games take advantage of all of this but it comes part and parcel with the sport and simulating it in a game.)

 

[Raistlin]

Don't forget larger stadiums, more crowd, skies, and grass. (not that football games take advantage of all of this but it comes part and parcel with the sport and simulating it in a game.)

Remove grass and skies from the list.

The rendered interior of basketball arena 'roof' (beams, score board, banners, etc) is more taxing then a sky box. Similarly, the court, with its reflected lightsources and players, is far more taxing than grass.

 

[MassiveAttack]

don't like the thread or him? how about countering his posts instead of 'shut it'?

He works for Sony so that's not going to happen.