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[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Dwarves are clearly red in nature and white in spirit.

The white race is and has been for some time humans. Even when they can be everything and are basically blank slates when it comes to races they are base white imo.

Dwarves on Kaladesh seem white through and through but if they are mono white going forward that'd be a mistake.

 

[duxstar]

I think it's more that they needed to color balance the walkers, so they added Nissa. Kaladesh is a very UR world. In Aether revolt, we're likely to get another UB Tezzeret and a GW Ajani, putting the balance at 2W, 3U, 1B, 2R and 2G. Amonkhet will likely lean more toward black to balance things out.



Actually, now that I think of it, debt tokens from Empires are mechanically similar to the pacts from Magic.

Black should have 2 after this set too right, Ob nixilis and Lilianna, and even if Ob rotates out, we'll still have Tezzeret who is at minimum part black.

 

[DashReindeer]

They're far too organized and patient for mono-Red. Or, rather, they should be if we want them to be different than Goblins and/or generic barbarians.

I mean, what you're saying is that Magic should have its own characterization of Dwarves that flies in the face of how they have been brought to life in basically any other fantasy context simply because white could use another race. This to me doesn't make sense. Look at the most famous Dwarves from other mediums and tell me they are white instead of red:

Gimli
Bruenor Battlehammer
Gotrek Gurnisson
Mulch Diggums
even The Seven Dwarves are miners

Hell, the original Dwarves from Norse mythology are definitively red not white. I feel like I just can't really wrap my head around trying to push Dwarves into white when red is way more in need of a non-Goblin non-Orc humanoid race and Dwarves not only fit the bill but have been undersupported prior to this.

EDIT: I think my real issue is how colors work in EDH. Adding white Dwarves doesn't do much to support the tribe for that format, which is disappointing as someone who almost exclusively plays EDH.

 

["God's Beard!"]

In fact, the only thing I don't like about this set is the dwarves. Why was magic India the right time to bring back dwarves? Super random.

 

[Simply Sarah]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";217088713]I love this set. I love energy. I love vehicles. I love fabricate. Everything is dynamic.

Like, just think about tap effects. Your opponent goes to the beginning of combat phase with a creature and a vehicle. If you tap the creature they get to start their engines, but if you pass back they get a free attack and your tapper sucks.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. I think this set can best be described as "Few mechanics, many many choices and options". Which is cool and I love but a bit worrying given their statements about the current Standard requiring too much thinking and planning. Emrakul isn't going anywhere any time soon, for example.

 

[MoxManiac]

Diabolic Tutor and Creeping Mold reprints..interesting.

Looks like we have most of the set now.

 

[OnPoint]

That's dumb though. That's like having a white merfolk or a blue elf or a green zombie.

White keeps going through these dumb gimmicky races like the kithkin, the kor, etc. Toss dwarves on top of it now.

I like dwarves in white.

 

[Yeef]

Black should have 2 after this set too right, Ob nixilis and Lilianna, and even if Ob rotates out, we'll still have Tezzeret who is at minimum part black.

I meant in the block, not in Standard.

Diabolic Tutor and Creeping Mold reprints..interesting.

Looks like we have most of the set now.

We have all of the set now. The whole thing was spoiled about 2 hours ago.

 

[Simply Sarah]

EDIT: I think my real issue is how colors work in EDH. Adding white Dwarves doesn't do much to support the tribe for that format, which is disappointing as someone who almost exclusively plays EDH.

This is understandable. But it's not all bad! They've given us a RW legendary Dwarf lord and, you know, actual new Dwarves. It just means you need to/can play RW instead of mono-Red. It also opens up the Eventide Dwarves.

 

[Hero]

I like dwarves in white.

I have no problem with multicolored merfolk or goblins or zombies or elves.

 

[Santiako]

I'm so glad that they printed a card with affinity for artifacts!

This seems very good:

 

[SigmasonicX]

Sheesh, you guys really do get upset about the weirdest things.

Consul's Shieldguard - An attack trigger to give another creature a keyword for E is interesting. It's weird seeing a Shieldguard get an attack trigger.
Pressure Point - Didn't expect to see this here.
Revoke Privileges - This is a fun design. If it wasn't already a card, this could be called Grounded.
Trusty Companion - A hyena?! Alright then. I'm glad Wizards acknowledged that hyenas aren't canines, and thus shouldn't have the hound type.

Aether Meltdown - This is a neat design. I noticed that Depala doesn't boost Dwarf creatures but rather "Dwarves", going back to the older wording. Now that noncreatures can have power/toughness, which can be affected by cards like this, I wonder if creature lords are going to have their wordings returned to their previous form.
Confiscation Coup - I feel like it's been a while since we got a "gain control" spell in blue that didn't require swapping. Given that, I'm surprised we also got a swapping spell.
Gearseeker Serpent - Oh look, we got affinity for artifacts after all! I'm surprised this is common.
Glimmer of Genius - Strictly better Weave Fate (or nontargetted Inspiration), seems pretty good.
Minister of Inquiries - Gotta have a vedalken milling card.
Select for Inspection - I feel like this could be good.
Wind Drake - Surprised to see this here.

Diabolic Tutor - Oh hey, this turned out to be that after all. I agree I'm not a fan of the art or flavor text.
Harsh Scrutiny - Strictly better Ostracize. The benefit of Duress hitting noncreatures is that black can already deal with creatures well enough, making creature-specific discard spells less useful, so it's still an open question whether this will see play.
Mind Rot - This has to be the most benign version of Mind Rot ever, right?

Aethertorch Renegade - Oh nice, it's been a while since we had a pinger that hit creatures. The six damage to a player for eight energy seems like a good finisher in Limited for an energy deck and perhaps even in Constructed.
Fateful Showdown - This is an interesting design. It requires some building around for the full benefit, but I could see this in Constructed.
Giant Spectacle - Well, I guess we have giants, though they look more like Lord of the Rings trolls.
Hijack - I'm surprised this wasn't a card already. Metallic Mastery only gained control of artifacts.
Quicksmith Genius - With fabricate, that's a lot of card filtering. Maybe even worthy of Constructed play.
Renegade Tactics - I'd say this is strictly better than Stun, but I suppose the instant speed could have helped sometimes, in an opponent flashed something in.
Spontaneous Artist - Oh hey, we got an artist in Magic (and red) after all! And MaRo was saying before that artist wouldn't make sense as a creature type.

Appetite for the Unnatural - We got monkeys after all! In art at least.
Cowl Prowler - No non-artifact snakes, but we got a wurm.
Creeping Mold - Surprised to see both this and Demolish.
Nature's Way - I like this card. Surprised to see a strictly better Rabid Bite already.
Riparian Tiger - Green tigers are weird.
Servant of the Conduit - A 2/2 mana elf for any color which gets two uses on its own, and more in an energy deck. Seems good.
Take Down - Surprised to see an effect like this at common. Also, the name sounded familiar, but no, there's no older card with this name.
Wily Bandar - Wha? Cat monkey? Checking, it looks like it isn't a real thing, but rather a reference to The Jungle Book's bandar-log, and they took some liberties. After the discussions of not portraying Indian culture and mythology in the set, making their one fictional Indian animal inclusion be from a Kipling story is a bit... ehhhhh.

Engineered Might - This is an odd design.
Hazardous Conditions - The wording of "counters" instead of +1/+1 counters makes me thing -1/-1 counters are coming in the same Standard.
Veteran Motorist - So the only other red dwarf is also red/white, huh? Also, what's providing the scry 2? Are both colors' abilities to scry 1 piling on top of each other?

Accomplished Automaton - This is cute.
Bastion Mastodon - Besides the name, a 4/5 for (5) seems pretty pushed, especially at common.
Deadlock Trap - The ability to stop planeswalker activations is interesting.
Eager Construct - Everyone getting to scry is a new effect, right?
Weldfast Monitor - I like this guy.

 

[HK-47]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";217088935]In fact, the only thing I don't like about this set is the dwarves. Why was magic India the right time to bring back dwarves? Super random.[/QUOTE]

Not very Indian magic India.

 

[OnPoint]

I have no problem with multicolored merfolk or goblins or zombies or elves.

OK. I just don't get your problem with dwarves in white. They're an organized race that works together for the betterment of their tightly knit society. I agree that they're also red due to their affinity for artifacts, short temperament and bloodlust in battle (not to mention mountain living). But making them red/white is fine by me.

I do agree that a couple mono-red dwarves would have been good. WotC makes curious decisions sometimes.

 

[Toxi]

Dwarves suck.

 

[Yeef]

OK. I just don't get your problem with dwarves in white. They're an organized race that works together for the betterment of their tightly knit society. I agree that they're also red due to their affinity for artifacts, short temperament and bloodlust in battle (not to mention mountain living). But making them red/white is fine by me.

I do agree that a couple mono-red dwarves would have been good. WotC makes curious decisions sometimes.

They said during the worldbuilding panel that they tried to give each color a characteristic race for this set to represent the aether cycle. White dwarves, blue vedalkens, black aetherborn, red gremlins and green elves. None of those appear outside of their respective colors. Maybe during aether revolt, we'll see a change to represent the Kaladesh hierarchy breaking down.

 

[DashReindeer]

OK. I just don't get your problem with dwarves in white. They're an organized race that works together for the betterment of their tightly knit society. I agree that they're also red due to their affinity for artifacts, short temperament and bloodlust in battle (not to mention mountain living). But making them red/white is fine by me.

I do agree that a couple mono-red dwarves would have been good. WotC makes curious decisions sometimes.

Yah, my main issue is not that there are Dwarves in white, but rather that there aren't Dwarves in red. Again, that's mainly the EDH player in me showing though.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

OK. I just don't get your problem with dwarves in white. They're an organized race that works together for the betterment of their tightly knit society. I agree that they're also red due to their affinity for artifacts, short temperament and bloodlust in battle (not to mention mountain living). But making them red/white is fine by me.

I do agree that a couple mono-red dwarves would have been good. WotC makes curious decisions sometimes.

Pretty sure that was his point, apart from the legend all the dwarves are white. There's none of the red attributes present in Kaladesh dwarves. The discussion escalated when someone suggested dwarves as the marquee white race going forward.

 

[zethren]

Eh, I strongly disagree with this comparison. This isn't even remotely close to how things were during the Weatherlight Saga. Those sets pretty much told the entire story on the cards so a huge percentage of the cards contained at least a minor story beat. Here we have a handful of story/Gatewatch related cards taking up a very small part of a large set. Even without going back to count, I can say with almost complete certainty that the Predator attack on the Weatherlight in Tempest had more story tie-in cards than the entirety of Kaladesh by a good margin.

It kind of feels like people don't want to have any story/Gatewatch cards at all.

Story cards are great, but the way the Gatewatch has been handled just feels very boring and rehashed at this point. And it hasn't even been that long, really.

My favorite bit of story in MTG has always been Mayael and Progenitus on Maya during Alarm block. There's a neat story there, and it's told through a handful of cards. That was done very well I think, and they can incorporate that style of story telling for a larger block story (and they have many times). It's the constant focus on the same 5 or so planeswalkers that is annoying and boring.

Though overall, I'm super pleased with the flavor of Kaladesh.

 

[Yeef]

Pretty sure that was his point, apart from the legend all the dwarves are white.

There's one other RW dwarf.

 

[Santiako]

Scry 2 on a RW creature is so weird.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

IMO White not having a characteristic race makes sense, as the color of community and cooperation. Similarly Green, a color where having big 6/6 fatties is the norm, doesn't really have an iconic race (as much as they try to push hydras)

 

[Yeef]

IMO White not having a characteristic race makes sense, as the color of community and cooperation.

I always felt that soldier was white's iconic creature type. It being a class rather than a race makes sense and fits white's philosophy very well; it's not about who you are, it's about what you do for society at large.

 

[DashReindeer]

Scry 2 on a RW creature is so weird.

Yeah, that's kinda what I am talking about when I wonder about Development muddying up the design for this set. Scry in general seems to have no place in the set, yet it's just sort of tacked on some cards. Again, feels almost like there was another mechanic on these cards before that was deemed to strong and replaced with Scry.

What do I know though? I haven't read any of the dailymtg articles this time around. Set still seems fine, just let me down in a few areas, and I tend to blame Development for these things (whether or not that's fair is up for debate).

 

[Yeef]

Yeah, that's kinda what I am talking about when I wonder about Development muddying up the design for this set. Scry in general seems to have no place in the set, yet it's just sort of tacked on some cards. Again, feels almost like there was another mechanic on these cards before that was deemed to strong and replaced with Scry.

What do I know though? I haven't read any of the dailymtg articles this time around. Set still seems fine, just let me down in a few areas, and I tend to blame Development for these things (whether or not that's fair is up for debate).

Both of the RW cards help your dig for vehicles. I think, like equipment, you're not going to want to run too many vehicles in limited (like 3~4 max), so being able to dig for them is important.

 

[Hero]

OK. I just don't get your problem with dwarves in white. They're an organized race that works together for the betterment of their tightly knit society. I agree that they're also red due to their affinity for artifacts, short temperament and bloodlust in battle (not to mention mountain living). But making them red/white is fine by me.

I do agree that a couple mono-red dwarves would have been good. WotC makes curious decisions sometimes.

My issue is like I stated already, white already has TWO non-human//fantasy races that are "organized race that works well in an army with equipment."

Why does white need a third race to accomplish this? What's the point of bringing dwarves back if it's just going to be a retread of what Leonin and Kor have done already? Not to mention humans with equipment are pretty much evergreen with soldiers (since they fucked up by having so many old cards that are just Soldiers and not Human Soldiers).

I would be fine with Red-White dwarves or if there were mono-red dwarves to go along with this. White having dwarves near exclusively now is not only dumb but almost like a slap in the face to a certain segment of people that wanted dwarves back.

This is in addition to the fact that red's big iconic race shows up in other colors all the time(dragons).

 

[OnPoint]

Scry 2 on a RW creature is so weird.

Scry is available to both colors (if not all colors) so why is it weird? Just because they didn't do it before? Flavorwise, it represents the "veteran" aspect. Knowledge and wisdom and all that. I think it's fine.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I always felt that soldier was white's iconic creature type. It being a class rather than a race makes sense and fits white's philosophy very well; it's not about who you are, it's about what you do for society at large.

I always disliked the separation of soldier, knight and archer. How am I supposed to build a tribal army deck w/o cavalry and archers. I can build a deck with respective lords but not a deck that combines them reasonably.

 

[Ashodin]

I mean, he's brought it up several times, so it started to get weird.

It's less about that and more about I'm interested to see if they will come up with contrived plot twists that make them look dumb. Basically I want to know if they have learned how to actually tell a story or not.

With MaRo answering it's clear that they've definitively got their heads screwed on right for certain things, less for others.

Spoiler

fucking Steve Argyle Chandra Liliana painting becoming more and more canon every set

ALSO WHO THE FUCK DO I NEED TO ENERGIZE TO GET SOME GODDAMN EQUIPMENT UP IN HERE

JUST TWO??????

TWO

(((((((

 

[Santiako]

CAT MONKEY?

The Grinch?

 

[Simply Sarah]

Story cards are great, but the way the Gatewatch has been handled just feels very boring and rehashed at this point. And it hasn't even been that long, really.

My favorite bit of story in MTG has always been Mayael and Progenitus on Maya during Alarm block. There's a neat story there, and it's told through a handful of cards. That was done very well I think, and they can incorporate that style of story telling for a larger block story (and they have many times). It's the constant focus on the same 5 or so planeswalkers that is annoying and boring.

Though overall, I'm super pleased with the flavor of Kaladesh.

Oh, I agree. I think a big part is that the Gatewatch characters are lacking something. I mean, when we've had a few sets and the related story and the most notable thing about Gideon remains his shirt (or lack thereof) then you have an issue. I actually feel it's odd because despite being almost 20 years ago and having plenty of its own problems the Weatherlight Saga characters even now seem much more interesting. Granted, some of that is nostalgia. Weatherlight (And even more than that: Tempest) actually having a single story to it on the cards at all was amazing to 13 year old me.

 

[HK-47]

CAT MONKEY?

The Grinch?

Christmas is cancelled =(

Also Ghirapur = Whoville?

 

[Giant Panda]

The creature typing in this game is so weird for non-humanoid races. Some species get individual sub-types, but then others get thrown into "beasts". Same way there are soldiers, Knights, berserker, warriors, etc for classes. I think you could just have soldiers and berserkers to denote the amount of organization and aggressiveness and fighting style.

EDIT:

Like why do Elks, goats, camels, or rhinos get their own type, when they could easily be beasts? Crocs getting their own type also seems unnecessary when they could get grouped under a reptile type. They have seperate ape and monkey sub-types when they could have them all grouped under primates. Rats are prominent enough that they might deserve their own type, but they could also be grouped with other species under a rodent sub-type, and the tribal synergies would still make sense.

I'm just looking out for tribal lovers out there. The more random types the have the harder it is to make tribal work well.

 

[tebunker]

No, what's kind of offensive is how clearly white she is while her parents and home world are so clearly Kaladeshi. She's a white-as-snow ginger for chrissakes. She's a visual beacon when compared to them -- just look at that hug card!

What's insulting is how they've clearly been trying to make her Jaya 2.0 the entire time she's existed, then they made her a different race than her parents during Origins, dropped clues to a Jaya connection with the googles during the pre-BFZ stories, now are dialing back on it because of reasons. She "looks more like her dad" because of the style of dress and goggles. Facially she looks not much more like her dad than her mom, and even he's a few shades darker than her.

I welcome more diversity in the main cast of Magic. They've long since needed to shake that up. And they've been making strides. But let's not kid ourselves that Chandra being Kaladeshi was planned from the start. It was easy enough to give Gideon a tan, but they didn't even try with Chandra. I get that she was created long before Kaladesh was a thought, but she doesn't fit the role as a Kaladesh native. It's just poor writing/planning/use of the character.

Anyway, I agree that if Maro says it flatly it's done. I was mostly joking about them revealing the plot twist in the future. So I'll drop it.

I dont think people understand how real genetics work, and this is a make believe world.

There is nothing insulting about it.

For example my good friend is Greek as hell and looks Mediterranean as all get out. Like super stereotypical greek. His wife looks stereotypical Swedish as can be. The first kid, pale skin, fire engine red curly hair. They're called latent genes, and red hair/fair skin is technically a mutation. If you want to get all real world.

Look Wotc can do whatever they want woth shoe horning their lore in to what ever fits their goals. The thing is there are real world examples of this without even introducing plane touched magic bullshit.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It isn't hard at all to say "in MTG Dwarves don't live in mountains."

 

[Firemind]

It isn't hard at all to say "in MTG Dwarves don't live in mountains."

RIP Balthor

 

[Simply Sarah]

OK, so I just saw LSV's article about what's changing with the Standard rotation. Without even reading the rest of the article the batch of images of what's disappearing is seriously on point.

 

[Santiako]

The power level of commons and uncommons is through the roof! Limited is going to be so fun.

 

[Firemind]

OK, so I just saw LSV's article about what's changing with the Standard rotation. Without even reading the rest of the article the batch of images of what's disappearing is seriously on point.

Good riddance.

 

[OnPoint]

I dont think people understand how real genetics work, and this is a make believe world.

There is nothing insulting about it.

For example my good friend is Greek as hell and looks Mediterranean as all get out. Like super stereotypical greek. His wife looks stereotypical Swedish as can be. The first kid, pale skin, fire engine red curly hair. They're called latent genes, and red hair/fair skin is technically a mutation. If you want to get all real world.

Look Wotc can do whatever they want woth shoe horning their lore in to what ever fits their goals. The thing is there are real world examples of this without even introducing plane touched magic bullshit.

Friend, I'm not insulted that they're doing what they want. You're right, it's not my property to decide what they do or don't. I don't know why you even felt like this was relevant to bring it up. It's like when people say you shouldn't criticize an athlete if you also aren't playing that sport.

I'm insulted that they half-ass their way through storytelling time in and time out. This has nothing to do with mutations in the real world. I know what latent genes are, thanks. That's not what's going on here. It has to do with them not thinking ahead and just kinda throwing shit together. Them suddenly putting a tan on Gideon because they decided he should be Mediterranean is insulting. It's terrible writing and planning. The same way Chandra was never planned to be of "indian" descent. I'm sorry, people are going pick these details apart, especially now that they're emphasizing the story and its importance. Again, I hope they'll be better about this in the future. That's about all I can do at the moment.

 

[Llyrwenne]

No Ornithopter makes me sad.

 

[charlequin]

I see your points but still feel like white getting them is just redundant. Like the description you gave fits the leonin of Mirrodin or the kor of Zendikar almost exactly. Do they really need a third non-human race of super tough warriors that like to wear/make equipment that live in an ordered-society?

All that stuff is totally tacked on to the leonin (who only have equipment stuff because Mirrodin) and the kor (who were originally mystical nomads.) Dwarves are the race it actually makes the most sense for. Better to get that in play now and then next time they can have some more flexibility in how they use the leonin and kor.

I've never played Dominion, but just think Energy looks like it was stapled on draft cards to make it "work", and that constructed wise you have to go out of your way to find a card that fits in into any deck.

I really honestly think this is one of those mechanics that you have to play with to judge accurately.

The white race is and has been for some time humans. Even when they can be everything and are basically blank slates when it comes to races they are base white imo.

This is bad for a bunch of reasons from the Design and Creative perspectives so they have a big incentive to get away from it.

Look at the most famous Dwarves from other mediums and tell me they are white instead of red:

Gimli

Gimli is super clearly a red-white dwarf to me.

when red is way more in need of a non-Goblin non-Orc humanoid race

It is? Like... why?

 

[Metroidvania]

OK, so I just saw LSV's article about what's changing with the Standard rotation. Without even reading the rest of the article the batch of images of what's disappearing is seriously on point.

I love how CoCo is in there multiple times, lol.

 

[G.ZZZ]

WotC is just racist toward Red, the sooner u accept that the better. Red races have all to be braindead violent brutes.

 

[charlequin]

OK, so I just saw LSV's article about what's changing with the Standard rotation. Without even reading the rest of the article the batch of images of what's disappearing is seriously on point.

Should've hit the visual gag harder and just had two full rows of Collected Company at the end.

Also: remember when people thought that Dragons was an underpowered set and the Commands were a pale imitation of the original monocolor cycle? Good times.

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

WotC is just racist toward Red, the sooner u accept that the better. Red races have all to be braindead violent brutes.

Give 'em time. Look at what they did to Black this set.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

All that stuff is totally tacked on to the leonin (who only have equipment stuff because Mirrodin) and the kor (who were originally mystical nomads.) Dwarves are the race it actually makes the most sense for. Better to get that in play now and then next time they can have some more flexibility in how they use the leonin and kor.

I hate to be that guy

Spoiler

that's a lie

but if you want to make dwarves equipment focused that usually leads to guns.

I really honestly think this is one of those mechanics that you have to play with to judge accurately.

Played a bunch of Dominion but didn't connect the two at all.

This is bad for a bunch of reasons from the Design and Creative perspectives so they have a big incentive to get away from it.

Possibly but I like the aspect of humans congregated into a society are white.

Gimli is super clearly a red-white dwarf to me.

Gimli is mono red, he's close to the definition of battle rager. Dwarves in LotR are much more skewed in the red direction than dwarves usually are in fiction imo.

 

[The Technomancer]

I really honestly think this is one of those mechanics that you have to play with to judge accurately.

It looks like it could be the spine of one of the best Limited formats we've seen in ages, but I have no idea where it fits in Constructed, and I hope it finds space somewhere

 

[SigmasonicX]

This is definitely a set where I'll need some pro guidance to figure out what's good in Limited.

Is LSV going to do the Limited reviews this time, or is he still taking a break from that?

 

[Hero]

All that stuff is totally tacked on to the leonin (who only have equipment stuff because Mirrodin) and the kor (who were originally mystical nomads.) Dwarves are the race it actually makes the most sense for. Better to get that in play now and then next time they can have some more flexibility in how they use the leonin and kor.

It is? Like... why?

Who cares that it's tacked on? How is it less tacked on here? They created planes specifically for those things and to bring out those themes and build the world.

To your second point, maybe red players want something else to identify with other than war-mongering, nearly brainless goblins/orcs.