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Mainstream is not good
- Thread starter C4Lukins
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SouthernDragon
Member
You want people to push the limits of gaming through innovation.
You want big budget titles.
What was the last big budget innovative title?
And what are you championing? Lair, Blue Dragon, and Heavenly Sword, which follow set formulas.
Smaller games are bad? Small games can be epic in their own right, and are more likely to be revolutionary.
Trauma Center probably did not cost that much to make, and it came from a small developer. It's also one of the best games on Wii and DS.
Heavenly Sword was expensive, followed a preset pattern and catered to the hardcore. It got a solid "rent" from many people.
What's your point? You're folding in on yourself.
Are casuals good for us?
Yes.
They create new genres, resurrect old ones, sustain current ones. New blood is bad?
You want big budget titles.
What was the last big budget innovative title?
And what are you championing? Lair, Blue Dragon, and Heavenly Sword, which follow set formulas.
Smaller games are bad? Small games can be epic in their own right, and are more likely to be revolutionary.
Trauma Center probably did not cost that much to make, and it came from a small developer. It's also one of the best games on Wii and DS.
Heavenly Sword was expensive, followed a preset pattern and catered to the hardcore. It got a solid "rent" from many people.
What's your point? You're folding in on yourself.
Are casuals good for us?
Yes.
They create new genres, resurrect old ones, sustain current ones. New blood is bad?
Azelover
Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
kame-sennin said:
Exactly, which is also what Iwata used to mention a lot prior to the DS being released. Of course they took an extreme route with the Wii, but it is arguable that the other companies were also taking it far enough as far the HD consoles go, they were almost really going for the high end user this time, which is not exactly how consoles have evolved in past generations. We've had high end consoles before, but they were never popular enough to justify their sole existence in the market.
Mystery-white-boy
Member
:lol :lol :lolomg rite said:
This thread has been an absolute joy to read. Seriously, I've had more laughs from this than from any of the other whacked out shit that NPD seems to have left in its wake. Please, mods, don't make the laughter stop ... just yet.
Against my better judgment, I'm gonna add a few serious comments below.
EDIT: I'm not sure what made me think taking this thread at all seriously was a sane idea.
I was hoping this thread would just die after the mass raping I received.
"You want people to push the limits of gaming through innovation."
Yes
"You want big budget titles."
Yes. Well I just want good games.
"What was the last big budget innovative title?"
Bioshock
"And what are you championing? Lair, Blue Dragon, and Heavenly Sword, which follow set formulas."
No. I was championing big games, not ones that did not succeed. I have not played any of the three so I am not judging them yet.
"Smaller games are bad? Small games can be epic in their own right, and are more likely to be revolutionary."
Small games are not bad at all. My arguement was that I do not want to see big developers with big ideas turning towards smaller and cheaper ideas to make more money.
"Trauma Center probably did not cost that much to make, and it came from a small developer. It's also one of the best games on Wii and DS."
I agree with that. Trauma Center is my favorite DS game.
"Heavenly Sword was expensive, followed a preset pattern and catered to the hardcore. It got a solid "rent" from many people."
I used it as an example of a game that did not live up to expectations. It cost a lot of money, and was supposed to be one of the big system sellers for PS3, and early word is that it is just good.
"What's your point? You're folding in on yourself."
My point was again, that I want the video game industry to focus on people who like games like me, and not try to convince people who do not like games to like them. Because the more "pop" the industry becomes it will become more dumbed down for us that are already here. It is a very selfish concept.
"Are casuals good for us?"
They are if they buy good games.
"You want people to push the limits of gaming through innovation."
Yes
"You want big budget titles."
Yes. Well I just want good games.
"What was the last big budget innovative title?"
Bioshock
"And what are you championing? Lair, Blue Dragon, and Heavenly Sword, which follow set formulas."
No. I was championing big games, not ones that did not succeed. I have not played any of the three so I am not judging them yet.
"Smaller games are bad? Small games can be epic in their own right, and are more likely to be revolutionary."
Small games are not bad at all. My arguement was that I do not want to see big developers with big ideas turning towards smaller and cheaper ideas to make more money.
"Trauma Center probably did not cost that much to make, and it came from a small developer. It's also one of the best games on Wii and DS."
I agree with that. Trauma Center is my favorite DS game.
"Heavenly Sword was expensive, followed a preset pattern and catered to the hardcore. It got a solid "rent" from many people."
I used it as an example of a game that did not live up to expectations. It cost a lot of money, and was supposed to be one of the big system sellers for PS3, and early word is that it is just good.
"What's your point? You're folding in on yourself."
My point was again, that I want the video game industry to focus on people who like games like me, and not try to convince people who do not like games to like them. Because the more "pop" the industry becomes it will become more dumbed down for us that are already here. It is a very selfish concept.
"Are casuals good for us?"
They are if they buy good games.
Starchasing
Member
C4Lukins said:
you are very very wrong...
Just look at other mature industries such as the movies industry.
Last movie i saw at the cinema ? Shrek 3 , with my GF
Last movie before that i saw at the cinema? Inland Empire , with my friends...
I understand your desires but you should understand that the key to fulfill those desires is not what you think. The key factor is low developmet costs because it lets companies fulfill smaller demands. What console iwas built around low costs?
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
C4Lukins said:
This is the problem, I'm sure you care deeply for the industry, but your argument is becoming "People who don't like the games I like are stoopid."
You and I probably have very different tastes in games (I enjoyed Nintendogs and Big Brain Academy, but at least we have trauma center in common). Here is everything in a nutshell. You already have to contend with me and the genres I like that you don't like and vice versa, why not share with everybody else? The money the industry gets from those games will also help fund games you like. The bigger the industry means more risks can be made.
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
Wait a minute, whats wrong with WiiFit?
Starchasing said:
I am not sure what your point is. Inland Empire could not even get a wide release in the US. As far as I know, it did not even get a limited release outside of a few festivals. Shrek 3 on the other hand, was seen by tens of millions of people worldwide.
And I guess you are talking about budget, and quality which is a bit of a different thing. Really that was an arguement I got dragged off by someone elses response and it was not my real point. I like Geometry Wars as much as I like Final Fantasy games. When I was talking about smaller games, I was referring to low budget simplistic games aimed at a mass audience. In the heat of the arguement I have obviously failed at clarifying many of the points I was trying to make.
Starchasing
Member
ziran said:
Yeah, look at the 17 million copies sold of Nintendogs. Did that stop us getting Contra 4 for the Ds?
It means what i just said. Movies like Shrek 3 can co exist with movies like Inland Empire.
BTW Inland Empire doesnt need a wide release because there are not many DL fans out there. Also Inland Empire is more than probably best viewed on a SD TV... "there is more room to dream"
My final point is that both Shrek 3 fans and David Lynch fans are happy because both can get to see what they like.
Night_Trekker
Member
Why is this thread still going? :lol
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
legend166 said:
Maybe he is frustrated that a videogame solving addition problems is more fun than any of those "full scale epic experiences" and will make more money than all three of them combined.
legend166 said:
That was not the point of my arguement at all. My point was that when companies look at the massive budgets they spent on games that did not end up successful, they may shift their focus to smaller budget more mass appeal games. Which to some is great, and to me personally is worrisome.
Starchasing
Member
legend166 said:
Such mediocre games were made because of Wii Fit , not Brain Age
Dont worry... Wii is your solution. Wii can provide the experience you are looking for , while being cost sensitive for the publisher... unless you are a graphic whore...
FFS, get over yourself! :lolC4Lukins said:
I think most things from Square-Enix and Kojima are shite and generally speaking I'm no fan of Capcom, and I think most RPGs and FPSs are the worst things imaginable, but so what? How does that have any relevance to what should or shouldn't be liked by other people, or be made by developers?
Realistically, and happily, want you want has little chance of happening, and hopefully games like Wii Fit will continue to sell through the roof changing this industry, because, in my selfish view, it's something that's needed to happen for years
I hope that the people speaking out against elitism also extend the same respect to other mediums....I personally have given up on trying to psychoanalyze why one thing is popular and another isn't. To hell with all that "high brow", "good taste", "high culture", bullshit....that attitude should have died after the modernist era anyways. My game taste may seem "hardcore", but at the same time, my favorite movie genre is horror and my favorite music genre is rap...so theres no reason for me to be talking about "the stupid masses" because many would place me in the same category.
Not trying to get super philosphical about this, but honestly, I don't believe that there is some objective standard of art, culture, or much of anything really. I really wish that western society in general would come to terms with this. Has God or some deity declared what should be considered "good" or "bad" when it comes to videogames? Is there some scientific way to gauge how good movies are? What's really your gripe with Full House? I mean, I personally don't really like the show, but honestly, if millions of people watched it, and millions enjoyed it, and people made money and got famous off of it....then who are you or I to declare that it really wasn't good? And even if you could declare this objectively, then whats your explanation as to why it still was popular and is still airing as reruns to this day?
Wii is here to stay, the industry is going to be different, just get used to it, if you don't like the direction of future titles, then don't buy them.....At the end of the day, we all have to vote with our wallets. I understand the OP's concern, but you've gotta understand that people are going to buy and play what they like, and nobody is going to throw you, "the hardcore", or anyone else a bone just because they have been "down" with the industry longer then them...thats just how it is. I don't like Wiifit or Brainage or any of those games either, but I think that everyone needs to refrain from elitist attitudes as though their shit doesn't stink...that includes people who think their games are "more fun" as well!
Not trying to get super philosphical about this, but honestly, I don't believe that there is some objective standard of art, culture, or much of anything really. I really wish that western society in general would come to terms with this. Has God or some deity declared what should be considered "good" or "bad" when it comes to videogames? Is there some scientific way to gauge how good movies are? What's really your gripe with Full House? I mean, I personally don't really like the show, but honestly, if millions of people watched it, and millions enjoyed it, and people made money and got famous off of it....then who are you or I to declare that it really wasn't good? And even if you could declare this objectively, then whats your explanation as to why it still was popular and is still airing as reruns to this day?
Wii is here to stay, the industry is going to be different, just get used to it, if you don't like the direction of future titles, then don't buy them.....At the end of the day, we all have to vote with our wallets. I understand the OP's concern, but you've gotta understand that people are going to buy and play what they like, and nobody is going to throw you, "the hardcore", or anyone else a bone just because they have been "down" with the industry longer then them...thats just how it is. I don't like Wiifit or Brainage or any of those games either, but I think that everyone needs to refrain from elitist attitudes as though their shit doesn't stink...that includes people who think their games are "more fun" as well!
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
I agree with the guy 2 posts ahead of me. I wish they made 20 million dollar NES games, though.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
AlternativeUlster said:
Wouldn't 20 million be kinda wasted on an NES game?
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
GreenGlowingGoo said:
A man can dream can't he?
Fucking exactly.
C4, I know you ignored my post on the last page, so I'll just say this instead: I haven't been this happy with gaming since the 16 bit era. Though PS1 is my favorite console, N64 disappointed. And I thought the entire PS2/GC/Xbox generation was disappointed.
Gaming became interesting and more fun again for me with DS, then 360, and now Wii. I couldn't be happier to be able to raise a lillllllllllllll puppy in Nintendogs, then play through the best Sonic game to be released since Sonic 3 on Genesis. Then I can play a brain training game, and after that I can go buy Contra fucking 4.
Then hop on the 360 and play something like Bioshock, as 360 got me into FPS games, then spend 4 hours playing Hexic and then a game about fucking pinatas.
Then I'll have a lot of people over, we'll have tons of fun playing Wii Spots. Then I can look forward to a few of the most anticipated REGULAR "hardcore" (lol) games in years on the same system (Smash Bros, Mario Galaxy). And at the same time, be very excited to buy (yes, BUY) Wii Fit because it looks FUN
These "mainstream" games have not and NEVER WILL stop us from getting the "normal" games. I think gaming is the best its ever been. You COULD be close minded and look at 360 and go "lol FPS, nothing else!!1" or look at the DS and say "lol kiddy!!11" or look at the Wii and say "lol ignoring us REAL gamers!!11".. but you'd be wrong on all accounts.
If you look at the entire industry as a WHOLE now, there is absolutely something for everyone, and the fact of the matter is that your entire basis behind this argument is that you're biased and whining because you want it ALL your way. Get over yourself.
C4Lunkins, the error in your logic is the idea that there is one entity called "game industry" whose attention span and expenditures can never increase beyond what they are now.
The market expanding does not mean there is less attention and development for the type of games you like. It means there is just additional development.
Your television analogy fails because television with full house means some other show that could have filled that spot just won't see production. Game development doesn't work the same way. Developers (publishers) mostly diversity into several different markets and audiences. When there is suddenly a big influx of consumers buying games like brain age, it doesn't mean all 'epic' game projects are cancelled and funds diverted into making smaller and broader game experiences. It means that additional money comes in from investors who see low-risk projects and jump in with millions.
"Casual" games aren't ruining your fun. I promise.
The market expanding does not mean there is less attention and development for the type of games you like. It means there is just additional development.
Your television analogy fails because television with full house means some other show that could have filled that spot just won't see production. Game development doesn't work the same way. Developers (publishers) mostly diversity into several different markets and audiences. When there is suddenly a big influx of consumers buying games like brain age, it doesn't mean all 'epic' game projects are cancelled and funds diverted into making smaller and broader game experiences. It means that additional money comes in from investors who see low-risk projects and jump in with millions.
"Casual" games aren't ruining your fun. I promise.
People were saying the same shit when the Playstation came out. That 2d games were going to go away, that FMV was going to take over, and that long loading times were going to become the norm.
There still are quite a few idiots out there that think that gaming stopped being great around 1995.
There still are quite a few idiots out there that think that gaming stopped being great around 1995.
What's all this bullshit about "justifying your hobby" ?? What the fuck is that ?
The really disturbing thing about you is you can't accept that these games are actually fun to play to the people who play them.
You act like we're forcing ourselves to play some dumb shit only to make non-gamers look at us in a good way, this is mad. Real mad.
As a gamer, I play to have fun. Sorry to surprise you.
The really disturbing thing about you is you can't accept that these games are actually fun to play to the people who play them.
You act like we're forcing ourselves to play some dumb shit only to make non-gamers look at us in a good way, this is mad. Real mad.
As a gamer, I play to have fun. Sorry to surprise you.
segarr said:
I see where you're coming from, but I think more than any other mediums, video games can be objectively bad. As in, have bugs, controls that don't work, have terrible graphical issues like pop in and stuff like that.
My point is, the games that Nintendo are selling are in no way objectively bad. They have controls that work, they don't have massive amounts of bugs, the graphics achieve what they set out to do, etc.
If Nintendo was releasing horribly put togther, buggy software that went on to sell millions of copies, it would be annoying. They are not. They are releasing well made titles that simply appeal to a different audience. That's why I don't get the mass hysteria over the death of the industry.
I don't believe there is some inherent thing about video games that leaves more room for error. Movies have so, so many things that can go wrong. I mean, try making the movie 300 in your back yard with 2 friends and see how "objectively bad" it turns out. A novel can have grammatical errors, printing errors, whatever. In other mediums, over time the processes have been worked out such that mistakes are not as common.legend166 said:
I don't disagree with the point of your post.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Funny, I used to use this logic to explain the Playstation brand name's past success.
In the end, who cares? Whatever console is the market leader will get the best supply of quality games in the end either way. No matter what console you pray to.
In the end, who cares? Whatever console is the market leader will get the best supply of quality games in the end either way. No matter what console you pray to.
TheGreatDave said:
Have to disagree on that as I basically quit this hobby because how much its changed over the years. It has got dumber, alot dumber, Shadow the Hedgehog dumb. Anything exciting now basically follows the formula of here is a gun, go blow things away with your john woo moves and mtv attitude. I cant think of the last game I played where I didnt feel more dumb after playing it or lost with its 16 buttons of oddball controls. Then you have here-go-play these mini games or here go play these mediocre rpgs with characters and worlds you really cant interact with trying so hard to be badass movies and dont hold a candle to ones decades past.
Games once were like moving paintings of art to me, had something to say and loads of atmosphere in even the most mundane of games, had intelligent dialogs at times where I even had look up a word or learned about mythology while taxing my brain. They were alot simpler then yes but to me they offered more when you didn't have to invest and change the focus of what games really are. I somehow wish we could go back abit and just focus on the core again. Strip away the nostalgia and I still rather play the 2D rpgs, platformers, action and the adventures game era as well from the pc side then current stuff today by a landslide. Though this is not exclusive to this hobby. I much rather listen to James Taylor, Springsteen, Dylan, Simon and Garfunkel then the crap of today as well.
It's painfully obvious from your post that you are the one who has changed. Games used to be moving paintings of art with loads of atmosphere, but now they're just john woo moves with guns? Your tag should be "got dumber, alot dumber."madara said:
Did you write this? http://www.logicmazes.com/s7g2k/video.html
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
I dunno about Bob Sagat...Fredescu said:
...but you don't fuck with him or Bob Saget, he's hardcore!
RevenantKioku
PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
Maybe I don't want internet back...hrm..
Wyndstryker
Member
Some people are thinking too hard on this.
I think we've jumped straight into Stage 4 here. The Wii image troll threads and now this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDO3tKtCz0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDO3tKtCz0U
RevenantKioku
PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
Phantom Hourglass and DQSwords rawk, btw.
Just sayin' is all.
Just sayin' is all.
OH NOES!! THEY'RE PUSHING GAMES I DON'T LIKE!!!! ALL GAMES SHOULD BE MADE TO PLEASE ME!!!!! TRAITORS!!!!!
The American comic book industry reached an uncomfortable plateau by doing exactly what you're suggesting: they focused only and solely on the same consumers for decades, and the end result is clear: "superhero" became the dominant comics genre by a large margin, to the point where the words "comics" and "superheroes" are often treated as synonymous and any other genres are labeled as "underground" or "alternative", or must be released in a slightly different format in order to distinguish themselves ("graphic novels").
The American comic book industry reached an uncomfortable plateau by doing exactly what you're suggesting: they focused only and solely on the same consumers for decades, and the end result is clear: "superhero" became the dominant comics genre by a large margin, to the point where the words "comics" and "superheroes" are often treated as synonymous and any other genres are labeled as "underground" or "alternative", or must be released in a slightly different format in order to distinguish themselves ("graphic novels").
AdmiralViscen
Banned
Wii haters take the console more seriously than its owners do.
M3d10n said:
You don't even need to delve that far into it. All you have to do is point to the Japanese 'comic book' industry in comparison with the one here, and any person who isn't completely dense (i.e. not C4Lunkins) will get the point immediately.
As for the topic itself, it's been covered ad nauseum, but I'll just say that it would be my ideal if 99% of FPSes fell off the face of the earth and got replaced by new and inventive platforming games. This isn't fantasyland though, this is real life, and in real life things your ideals are rarely realized. The reality is that, like with every industry, it needs to be profitable to survive. This means catering to the biggest audience possible with the least amount of sacrifice. These low-budget 'non-games' you hate so much fit this business model much better than the high-budget stuff, which is why you see them becoming more prevalent. And the kicker is that these companies will still spend time and resources creating the big-budget stuff because that's what healthy industries do: they are able to provide products to people with a wide variety of tastes. If C4Lunkins doesn't like that, then he should go back to his 'real gamer' hole and leave us 'casual gamers' alone.
C4Lukins said:
I haven't read everything so maybe this has been pointed out before but you are looking at this COMPLETELY BACKWARDS! The cost to produce a game on the more graphically powerful consoles has skyrocketed, essentially meaning that in order to make good money you have to start pandering to a larger, probably more mainstream audience. Lower productions costs allow a game to be more nice but still turn a profit. I'm not saying that your traditional genres won't still make bank, but don't kid yourself about the true and eventual effect of increased development costs.
Also, Nintendo is making the same games they have always made. If you want to be upset, get upset at third party developers who refuse to believe that anything other than 'OMG Ponies' will sell on the Wii.
Count Dookkake
Member
Dear C4Lukins,
Please shut the fuck up about Nintendo allegedly ignoring the needs and tastes of older gamers.
Sincerely,
A gamer older than you who likes Nintendo and is laughing at your tears
PS: Your insistence on using mainstream as a pejorative is as funny as those kids who accuse bands of "selling out." Are you still in high school?
Please shut the fuck up about Nintendo allegedly ignoring the needs and tastes of older gamers.
Sincerely,
A gamer older than you who likes Nintendo and is laughing at your tears
PS: Your insistence on using mainstream as a pejorative is as funny as those kids who accuse bands of "selling out." Are you still in high school?
C4Lukins said:
And by all rights they deserve to as a mediocre game that cost $20 million dollars is a laughable prospect. This isn't the knock at casual gamers but at devs who put shit out of dubious quality and expect the hardcore segment to buoy it to profitability.
Maybe you should call a mulligan on this and restart the topic as "Devs need to stop making shitty games."
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