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[EmCeeGramr]

I'm simply saying it's thematic as opposed to an explicit plot callback.

Before you give Oda the God-a "oh my god he referenced something" treatment, I would temper your enthusiasm by realizing that the Frog in a Well is a known Chinese proverb and it's pretty unlikely Oda meant that as an Easter egg as opposed to an explicit proverbial reference.

I no naka no kawazu, taikai o shirazu (井の中の蛙、大海を知ら&#12378 is a fairly common Japanese idiomatic expression meaning "a frog in a well cannot conceive of the ocean".

A) I know what the expression means
B) The thematic part was what I was more impressed by than the mere repetition of words

 

[Haly]

Oda goda etc.

 

[upandaway]

We should always just call EmCee whenever Grimace tempers our enthusiasm

 

[Angry Grimace]

A) I know what the expression means
B) The thematic part was what I was more impressed by than the mere repetition of words

Well, I didn't post it just for your benefit.

I just don't get how people are so impressed and calling Oda a genius for referencing a line from an earlier chapter. I just don't think from a basic writing standpoint it's particularly impressive to be capable of remembering something he wrote earlier. That's not a big deal at all.

 

[Dedication Through Light]

So, Fishman Island is almost over. Final bet time: does Jimbe join the crew permenantly or not.

I say yes. He had his own VS panel, and he got his own finisher spread. Plus, this fight demonstrates that he can take on Sanjuan Wolf.

I believe that no one will join strawhats crew from fishman island, Jimbe will stay and take up some lead of the fishman to help guide them back on track.

 

[Big One]

Well, I didn't post it just for your benefit.

I just don't get how people are so impressed and calling Oda a genius for referencing a line from an earlier chapter. I just don't think from a basic writing standpoint it's particularly impressive to be capable of remembering something he wrote earlier. That's not a big deal at all.

Well it's a pretty big deal because most writers out there don't even include references like that, even high tier Western writers don't keep that level of consistency. It's a clear reference...of a reference of an Asian proverb. Oda keeps track of almost everything in One Piece which can't be said for most writers or manga-ka out there.

 

[upandaway]

Hayate

So I've been thinking.

New house.

6 rooms to rent out.

Connected corridors and bath.

She should just rent it out to the regular cast. It'll be a wonderful house of SoL hijinks and foolery. It will be glorious. Fantastic. The best thing.

I'm a goddamn genius.

Someone needs to pay me for this stuff.

 

[scy]

On a side note, I think I'm going to pick up Hayate. But please answer me these questions three two.
1. Do any relationships eventually advance...like at all?
2. Where do I pick up if I've seen all anime episodes through s2?

Much obliged.

1) Uh ... depends on what you mean by advance. But ... not really. Not in any tangible way that won't make you possibly rage. To go back to that NA discussion, it's kind of like that, though at least only one-sided dumb as bricks.

2) I honestly don't know, I never finished watching s2 since

Spoiler

Hinagiku related events part way through were enough to satisfy me

so I don't know exactly where it ended. I do know it skips around a bit so there's events that weren't covered so it's hard to say precisely where you can just jump in. Volume 12-ish, I suppose? I'd have to re-read and watch things to get a better answer, lol.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Well it's a pretty big deal because most writers out there don't even include references like that, even high tier Western writers don't keep that level of consistency. It's a clear reference...of a reference of an Asian proverb. Oda keeps track of almost everything in One Piece which can't be said for most writers or manga-ka out there.

My understanding is that it's not a vague reference at all in the original Japanese.

Moreover, keeping track of events is not some special talent; it's basic writing skills and if you think that's impressive I don't really know what to tell you other than to broaden your horizons in terms of literature. Comparing Oda's reference of a single relatively well known proverb to high tier writers anywhere is literally one of the most laughable things I've ever read in this forum.

 

[upandaway]

On a side note, I think I'm going to pick up Hayate. But please answer me these questions three two.
1. Do any relationships eventually advance...like at all?
2. Where do I pick up if I've seen all anime episodes through s2?

Much obliged.

Dunno about 2 but for 1, it's not like people hook up and break up regularly and have a real thing going on like a TV drama, but I was really surprised at the changes/progress in the relationships (more so on the social end than the romance end, but the relationships do change enough to satisfy me).

Dunno what scy means, I'm not raging at any non-progress and it's not frustrating at all. I'm not sure how much you mind spoilers (only read it if you're okay with vague "an important thing will happen" type of spoilers) but

Spoiler

I just came off a REALLY REALLY huge change, a bunch of huge game-changers that I consider it maybe even a part-2 of sorts for the series

.

In any case I'm really satisfied with the "progress" in terms of relationships and interactions. Doesn't feel like stalemate for me.

Edit: also not sure if I need to say this flat out but I really really like it. Like, really really really a lot. for what that's worth. Hayate's been tons of fun.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Well it's a pretty big deal because most writers out there don't even include references like that, even high tier Western writers don't keep that level of consistency. It's a clear reference...of a reference of an Asian proverb. Oda keeps track of almost everything in One Piece which can't be said for most writers or manga-ka out there.

So, can you name those you consider as high-tier Western writers?

 

[survivor]

Well it's a pretty big deal because most writers out there don't even include references like that, even high tier Western writers don't keep that level of consistency. It's a clear reference...of a reference of an Asian proverb. Oda keeps track of almost everything in One Piece which can't be said for most writers or manga-ka out there.

Are we talking comics western writers or western writers in general? Cause having callbacks and references to earlier materials in your novel is pretty basic thing. Heck Brandon Sanderson is like the master of that shit and he isn't a high tier writer.

 

[upandaway]

Hayate

Chiharu, huh. Yes, yes, that's good. Very good.

I like the direction this is heading in.

 

[scy]

Dunno what scy means, I'm not raging at any non-progress and it's not frustrating at all.

Well, if I recall you're part way into the A

Spoiler

thena arc

, right? If so, that's about as far as I've gotten before I put it on break after the certain events later on. I haven't read since so I don't know if things have been resolved in a way I like.

The non-progress isn't a huge issue since it's not really a huge focal point of the good times with Hayate unlike typical harems. Perhaps rage isn't quite appropriate but if you're going in expecting some relationship stuff, I'd say to just stop that train of thought really. It's more for the fun ride that it is and treat that aspect as a sub-plot instead.

Plus, I'm a pretty big Hinagiku fan and I know from the get-go that I'm pretty much eternally set up for complete soul-crushing disappointment. That's probably most of my bitter tears On the wrong team, most likely.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Are we talking comics western writers or western writers in general? Cause having callbacks and references to earlier materials in your novel is pretty basic thing. Heck Brandon Sanderson is like the master of that shit and he isn't a high tier writer.

I don't think he's talking about western comics writers because that wouldn't make much sense; western comics don't have continuity by design since the properties aren't writer owned or exclusive, not to mention repeated reboots.

 

[watervengeance]

On a side note, I think I'm going to pick up Hayate. But please answer me these questions three two.
1. Do any relationships eventually advance...like at all?
2. Where do I pick up if I've seen all anime episodes through s2?

Much obliged.

Season 2 of the anime ends at chapter 147.

The best story arc starts at 178, where stuff actually happens.

 

[MCD]

Gamaran

FUCK YES GAMA CONTROL YOUR EVERY BONE.

 

[upandaway]

Well, if I recall you're part way into the A

Spoiler

thena arc

, right? If so, that's about as far as I've gotten before I put it on break after the certain events later on. I haven't read since so I don't know if things have been resolved in a way I like.

I'm in new stuff now. Did you stop before 280?

 

[watervengeance]

Are we talking comics western writers or western writers in general? Cause having callbacks and references to earlier materials in your novel is pretty basic thing. Heck Brandon Sanderson is like the master of that shit and he isn't a high tier writer.

Novels are way different than manga, since it's not something published weekly. If you can't even remember what you wrote in the beginning of your novel, then there's a problem.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Novels are way different than manga, since it's not something published weekly. If you can't even remember what you wrote in the beginning of your novel, then there's a problem.

Even in weekly comics, it's not a significant accomplishment to remember your own plot elements, characters or the things they've said.

 

[scy]

I'm in new stuff now. Did you stop before 280?

Oh ... lol. I don't remember the chapter number but it's definitely before 280 (stopped around the

Spoiler

Hayate confession about Athena

. I've been meaning to get back into Hayate but I keep putting it off. I may spend this weekend looking into doing just that.

Edit: Looking over it, 240-ish.

 

[watervengeance]

Even in weekly comics, it's not a significant accomplishment to remember your own plot elements, characters or the things they've said.

I didn't say it's a significant accomplishment. It's just silly to compare it to Western writers and novels. I do find it a significant accomplishment that people dig up these references week after week though.

 

[upandaway]

Oh ... lol. I don't remember the chapter number but it's definitely before 280 (stopped around the

Spoiler

Hayate confession about Athena

. I've been meaning to get back into Hayate but I keep putting it off. I may spend this weekend looking into doing just that.

Edit: Looking over it, 240-ish.

You are in for such a big deal, man.

You have to keep reading.

 

[Combine]

Before you give Oda the God-a "oh my god he referenced something" treatment, I would temper your enthusiasm by realizing that the Frog in a Well is a known Chinese proverb and it's pretty unlikely Oda meant that as an Easter egg as opposed to an explicit proverbial reference.

Kishi used it as well when he wrote Jiraiya's last words.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Can't we just say it's cool that Oda make a reference to something that happen near 10 years ago .
It cool to see Zoro treat Hyouzou the same way Mihawk treat him since the situation is almost the same .
Both of them being ignorant with how much skill other people in the world have.

 

[upandaway]

Hayate

Okay wait what the fuck oh my god, a Strongest Man Kurosawa reference out of nowhere.

And don't even assume it's this big, simple reference about Kurosawa in general. No. It's fucking obscure shit that I had to try really hard to remember. I am a bit blown away by this.

 

[Anth0ny]

Even in weekly comics, it's not a significant accomplishment to remember your own plot elements, characters or the things they've said.

I think lots of One Piece fans are also Dragon Ball fans.

So we appreciate Oda's ability to... remember things.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think lots of One Piece fans are also Dragon Ball fans.

So we appreciate Oda's ability to... remember things.

I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say.

 

[flawfuls]

Hayate

Okay wait what the fuck oh my god, a Strongest Man Kurosawa reference out of nowhere.

And don't even assume it's this big, simple reference about Kurosawa in general. No. It's fucking obscure shit that I had to try really hard to remember. I am a bit blown away by this.

Well the mangaka is obviously a Fukumoto fan. They talk about Akagi as well.

 

[Big One]

So, can you name those you consider as high-tier Western writers?

I think you misunderstood what I mean. I'm just saying that the talent of consistency has some merit as not many writers out there, EVEN high-tier Western writers, are like this. Even though Alan Moore isn't my favorite writer for example, his level of consistency in his references is beautiful and well articulated. You have to recognize this talent imo cause being able to keep that level of memory and consistency is pretty good. This is difficult cause writers tend to have thousands of ideas constantly running through their head, so they may forget things overtime. There's so many stories of writers reading books they've written years ago and ended up enjoying it as reading material cause it feels like they didn't write it and/or they're basically detached to it.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Bleach

Kishi used it as well when he wrote Jiraiya's last words.

Kubo also used it last chapter when Ginjou said that Ichigo has no reason to him. Aizen said the same thing to Ichigo.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think you misunderstood what I mean. I'm just saying that the talent of consistency has some merit as not many writers out there, EVEN high-tier Western writers, are like this. Even though Alan Moore isn't my favorite writer for example, his level of consistency in his references is beautiful and well articulated. You have to recognize this talent imo cause being able to keep that level of memory and consistency is pretty good. This is difficult cause writers tend to have thousands of ideas constantly running through their head, so they may forget things overtime. There's so many stories of writers reading books they've written years ago and ended up enjoying it as reading material cause it feels like they didn't write it and/or they're basically detached to it.

I don't think this clarifies your point; in fact, I think it just muddies the waters because you're trying to defend a totally overbroad statement because even in context it's not an impressive bit of recall; Mihawk recited a proverb to Zoro in a chapter approximately 10 years ago and Zoro used that same proverb later on after spending time training around him. It's such a obvious and direct connection that I fail to see how this is even remotely on the same level of say, a Song of Ice and Fire; you're taking the "Oda is a genius" bit way too far and nothing Oda has ever put into One Piece is even comparable in recall or detail to that particular work.

You can compare Oda to Kubo, Kishimoto, Toriyama, etc. but you're just reaching crazy levels of exaggeration to argue One Piece's literary merits are equal to the world output of great literature.

 

[Big One]

I don't think this clarifies your point; in fact, I think it just muddies the waters.

Even in context it's not an impressive feat; Mihawk recited a proverb to Zoro in a chapter approximately 10 years ago and Zoro used that same proverb later on after spending time training around him. It's such a obvious and direct connection that I fail to see how this is even remotely on the same level of say, a Song of Ice and Fire. You're taking the "Oda is a genius" bit way too far. I'm going to put this out there: nothing Oda has ever put into One Piece is even comparable in recall or detail to that particular work.

Interesting first you say that it isn't a direct connection, but now it is. Or to quote you, "I'm simply saying it's thematic as opposed to an explicit plot callback."

No one is saying One Piece is the Song of Ice and Fire and you have to be deluded to think anyone is comparing the two. However it's also extremely deluded to say that remembering things on a consistent basis is a normal writer's skill, cause it simply is not and never has been in the history of literature itself. Neil Gaiman? Extremely talented writer. But he's forgotten a lot of things he's written about in Sandman. Like most writers, he's always shifting to new ideas he wants to write about.

Being able to keep track of stuff doesn't weigh one as more talented than another, but it is a talent and aspect of the writing itself that should be appreciated just as much as any other talent.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Why does a person that draws a nice-looking art has to be the same person that conjures up the most rage-inducing stories and characters?

I'm talking about Seo Kouji. Damn that art for the Love Plus: Rinko Days manga is nice...

 

[Fidelis Hodie]

I don't think this clarifies your point; in fact, I think it just muddies the waters because you're trying to defend a totally overbroad statement because even in context it's not an impressive bit of recall; Mihawk recited a proverb to Zoro in a chapter approximately 10 years ago and Zoro used that same proverb later on after spending time training around him. It's such a obvious and direct connection that I fail to see how this is even remotely on the same level of say, a Song of Ice and Fire; you're taking the "Oda is a genius" bit way too far and nothing Oda has ever put into One Piece is even comparable in recall or detail to that particular work.

You can compare Oda to Kubo, Kishimoto, Toriyama, etc. but you're just reaching crazy levels of exaggeration to argue One Piece's literary merits are equal to the world output of great literature.

Actually, I'm going to reach crazy levels of exaggeration then.

The best of One Piece (I'm talking Enies Lobby, Sabaody slaughterfest) really does stand against the best of the best in my mind. While I realize this extremely subjective fact is mainly my opinion, but I really feel that Oda's writing can at times transcend its apparent market and be held up against any piece of literature you'd like to start comparing to. I'm not saying it will always win, but based on the fast paced, weekly structured market he's in, he really does transcend it at times.

The problem here is his remembering should be considered as entry level writing, but there are so many inconsistencies that other popular writers in his craft show, it gets added to the pool of reasons why people think he's the best. Not to mention, he's been writing a gigantic overarching story with a ridiculous amount of characters and plots, subplots, and even more sub-subplots for over ten years now. To keep it all together the way he does is something definitely something to be commended.

You may not agree.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Interesting first you say that it isn't a direct connection, but now it is. Or to quote you, "I'm simply saying it's thematic as opposed to an explicit plot callback."

What I'm saying is that it's not a particularly skillful, ingenious or particularly creative callback. I sincerely doubt Eiichiro Oda thought it was anything other than a nice touch. You're totally exaggerating the skill it takes to take a quote one guy said and have another guy say it.

No one is saying One Piece is the Song of Ice and Fire and you have to be deluded to think anyone is comparing the two.

Hmmmm: "Well it's a pretty big deal because most writers out there don't even include references like that, even high tier Western writers don't keep that level of consistency. It's a clear reference...of a reference of an Asian proverb. Oda keeps track of almost everything in One Piece which can't be said for most writers or manga-ka out there."

However it's also extremely deluded to say that remembering things on a consistent basis is a normal writer's skill, cause it simply is not and never has been in the history of literature itself.

I'm not going to sugar coat this: where the fuck do you get this? Have you ever read anything outside of Berserk, One Piece, Naruto and Bleach? This is frankly complete and utter nonsense and reflects only a passing familiarity with literature in general.

Neil Gaiman? Extremely talented writer. But he's forgotten a lot of things he's written about in Sandman. Like most writers, he's always shifting to new ideas he wants to write about.

Speculation, but even then I don't see the connection to One Piece.

Being able to keep track of stuff doesn't weigh one as more talented than another, but it is a talent and aspect of the writing itself that should be appreciated just as much as any other talent.

Listen, I'm trying to debate you seriously, but when you get to the point that you're defending One Piece by arguing that only the most talented writers are capable of remembering their own characters motivations and plot points, I really don't know what to tell you. There really isn't any evidence to support this textually, anecdotally or otherwise.

 

[Haly]

Wait, what has Gaiman forgot about in Sandman?

 

[Freshmaker]

Wait, what has Gaiman forgot about in Sandman?

He never showed us what the glory looked like.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Wait, what has Gaiman forgot about in Sandman?

Not only is there is not any foundation for that, there isn't any foundation for the theory that only the Dovakiin of writers can remember their own plot.

 

[Haly]

He never showed us what the glory looked like.

I had to look that up.

By the way, the entirety of Sandman predates One Piece. If Neil forgot something in one of his interviews or whatever, it's because it's been two decades since the first volume.

 

[Big One]

Oh lawd multiquote wars...

What I'm saying is that it's not a particularly skillful, ingenious or particularly creative callback. I sincerely doubt Eiichiro Oda thought it was anything other than a nice touch. You're totally exaggerating the skill it takes to take a quote one guy said and have another guy say it.

Okay if you say-so. Try writing a story for over 10 years straight and you call me back on that. First-hand accounts weigh far more than your opinion.

Hmmmm: "Well it's a pretty big deal because most writers out there don't even include references like that, even high tier Western writers don't keep that level of consistency. It's a clear reference...of a reference of an Asian proverb. Oda keeps track of almost everything in One Piece which can't be said for most writers or manga-ka out there."

Since when was anything by George R.R. Martin considered to be writing practices by "most writers"? Is all the literature you've read A Song and of Ice and Fire?

I'm not going to sugar coat this: where the fuck do you get this? Have you ever read anything outside of Berserk, One Piece, Naruto and Bleach? This is frankly complete and utter nonsense and reflects only a passing familiarity with literature in general.

Where the fuck did I get this? Read any interviews with any major writers, any, about old books they haven't written in years. Very rarely do they recall, 10 years later, obscure aspects of their works. It takes real talent to be able to either keep track or recall small elements. It's abysmally idiotic and factually wrong to even suggest this is a common talent amongst the writing community.

Speculation, but even then I don't see the connection to One Piece.

That isn't speculation, Neil Gaiman said in an interview a while back, a video one I believe, that he re-read Sandman and was surprised by all the things he wrote in it and found it a better read since he hasn't dealt with Sandman for so long. It was pretty clear and was a pretty big part of the interview. Most writers aren't inhuman machines that are able to keep of database of everything in their heads.

Listen, I'm trying to debate you seriously, but when you get to the point that you're defending One Piece by arguing that only the most talented writers are capable of remembering their own characters motivations and plot points, I really don't know what to tell you. There really isn't any evidence to support this textually, anecdotally or otherwise.

Yeah cause I'm totally arguing that...

 

[vareon]

Stop the discussion, guys. Hunter X Hunter is out.

LEORIO FUCK YEAH

 

[Big One]

Hunter x Hunter A

Fucking Leorio, holy shit this is great

 

[flintstryker]

Lerio is so fucking awesome

 

[Angry Grimace]

Oh lawd multiquote wars...

Okay if you say-so. Try writing a story for over 10 years straight and you call me back on that. First-hand accounts weigh far more than your opinion.


Since when was anything by George R.R. Martin considered to be writing practices by "most writers"? Is all the literature you've read A Song and of Ice and Fire?


Where the fuck did I get this? Read any interviews with any major writers, any, about old books they haven't written in years. Very rarely do they recall, 10 years later, obscure aspects of their works. It takes real talent to be able to either keep track or recall small elements. It's abysmally idiotic and factually wrong to even suggest this is a common talent amongst the writing community.

That isn't speculation, Neil Gaiman said in an interview a while back, a video one I believe, that he re-read Sandman and was surprised by all the things he wrote in it and found it a better read since he hasn't dealt with Sandman for so long. It was pretty clear and was a pretty big part of the interview. Most writers aren't inhuman machines that are able to keep of database of everything in their heads.

Yeah cause I'm totally arguing that...

This is a lot of sound and fury to just say "I have nothing to support this." You can put in a ton of text, but in the end as far as I can tell you're just making this up off the top of your head. "This one interview I totally saw with Neil Gaiman" isn't really evidence to support an argument. It's speculative and the context of your paraphrased quote sounds like you're talking about a period well after he wrote Sandman. That is totally and utterly inapplicable to what we are talking about - we are talking about ongoing works in which they are still writing them. You are talking about something else entirely, whether on purpose, I don't know. It's not applicable at all, in any case. If a writer doesn't remember the plot points of a work he stopped writing 10 years ago, that has nothing at all to do with what we're discussing. One Piece is still being written. SOIAF is still being written (and for the record, I referred to it, once, because it's a pertinent example since it's a currently running series that's been running for 15+ years). Even assuming you could find any source for this, it doesn't really make a difference if you're pulling sources about irrelevant topics.

Let me also say it's pretty rich that you say "first hand accounts mean more than your opinion" and then you go on to cite 0 examples of anything you're talking about - this is how argument works: until you post a source, what you just said is as good as if you made it up.

Do you have any idea how insane your argument is? Literally every single thing about your post here is utterly and totally without merit, support, factual basis or logic.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

HxH
Chapter was awesome , it's great seeing Leorio back again.

 

[Crash Station]

HXH

Best return EVER! So glad to see Leorio back and rising in the ranks. His ability is fuckawesome. Like something out of JJBA.

 

[survivor]

HxH

Awesome new ability

 

[Big One]

This is a lot of sound and fury to just say "I made this up." You can put in a ton of text, but in the end as far as I can tell you're just making this up off the top of your head. "This one interview I totally saw with Neil Gaiman" isn't really evidence to support an argument. It's speculative and the context of your paraphrased quote sounds like you're talking about a period well after he wrote Sandman. That is totally and utterly inapplicable to what we are talking about.

I mean, how rich is it that you say "first hand accounts mean more than your opinion" and then you go on to cite 0 examples of anything you're talking about - this is how argument works: until you post a source, what you just said is as good as if you made it up. Do you have any idea how insane your argument is? Literally every single thing about your post here is utterly and totally without merit, support, factual basis or logic.

So you expect me to pull out an obscure youtube video I found about a year ago looking for various Neil Gaiman reviews just out of interest?

Well I can try but I can't give you any promises. I'm not sure why you would think I'm lying about this, he specifically said, in an interview in 2005/2006 I believe that he re-read Sandman after 10 years of him finishing it and he was genuinely surprised by the things he written in there and it felt like reading a new story all over again. Maybe a more dedicated fan of his work can vouch for me here cause I specifically remember him saying this.

This doesn't really mean he's forgotten the entirety of Sandman, but it does mean that even the great writers are vulnerable to human flaws.

I think the assumption than an almost inhuman ability is commonplace is far more absurd than otherwise, whether you like it or not, there's no proof that most writers are able to remember small details from their works published a decade beforehand. It's valid to say George R.R. Martin can, but that's George R.R. FUCKING Martin, not the average writer.

 

[Angry Grimace]

So you expect me to pull out an obscure youtube video I found about a year ago looking for various Neil Gaiman reviews just out of interest?

Well I can try but I can't give you any promises. I'm not sure why you would think I'm lying about this, he specifically said, in an interview in 2005/2006 I believe that he re-read Sandman after 10 years of him finishing it and he was genuinely surprised by the things he written in there and it felt like reading a new story all over again. Maybe a more dedicated fan of his work can vouch for me here cause I specifically remember him saying this.

This doesn't really mean he's forgotten the entirety of Sandman, but it does mean that even the great writers are vulnerable to human flaws.

I think the assumption than an almost inhuman ability is commonplace is far more absurd than otherwise, whether you like it or not, there's no proof that most writers are able to remember small details from their works published a decade beforehand. It's valid to say George R.R. Martin can, but that's George R.R. FUCKING Martin, not the average writer.

I expect you to have some support for your argument rather than making them up entirely, yes. It's not a Sisyphean ordeal or unreasonable to expect you to back up factual claims.

And again, I don't care what Neil Gaiman said about Sandman TEN YEARS AFTER HE STOPPED WRITING IT. For the third time, that is not what we are talking about. As I said, I used Martin as an example (once) because it's a comparable timeline; a series still being written and 15+ years old.

What you're doing is a strawman - you're arguing against a point that isn't being made. We're talking about writers forgetting plot points in their current works while still writing them. Find me a part where J.K. Rowling forgot something in Book 6 that happened in Book 2. Find me where Tolkien forgot his characters motivation in the Lord of the Rings. Find me where Alexander Dumas fucked up all his characters in the d'Artangan Romances. I haven't read it, but I doubt you would even find an example of this in Twilight.

It doesn't make sense and you're not even bringing up textual examples that would even lead to that as an inference, much less direct evidence of that actually happening.