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Mask Efficacy |OT| Wuhan!! Got You All In Check

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oatmeal

Banned
"Looking at what we're seeing now, I would say between 100 and 200,000 deaths. We're gonna have millions of cases, but I just don't think that we really need to make a projection that it's such a moving target that you can so easily be wrong and mislead people."

Why are you so interested in taking his rough estimate at the moment, but not his follow up comment that we shouldn't be making projections? His whole point was that models and projections rarely turn out to be true.
Yeah and it doesn't even really make sense what he said there. Tapper said "Do you expect a million cases" and he says "That's off the charts" and then essentially changes his stance immediately and says he expects millions of cases.

Maybe Tapper was talking USA, and Fauci was thinking World?
 

holygeesus

Banned
I am definitely not saying that the US handled this completely correctly from the outset, but any thoughts on why/how the US somehow has by far the most cases of any nation (assuming China's data is true, which is a big assumption), and that NY in particular has ~12x as many cases as the next highest state (NJ excluded - its proximity to NY is the main reason for its high case count). You can say that NY/the US is testing more, but can it possibly be THAT much more? Keep in mind that the first US case was many weeks after China/Spain/Italy, and our nationwide population density is far lower than Spain/Italy (bear in mind that even if NY had only 15K cases instead of 55K, the US would still have the highest number of cases despite the lesser population density and later "start date" than these other nations).

Also, I realize that the population density of NY doesn't help matters, but other very dense US cities like LA and Chicago aren't seeing similar case numbers. Of course, it could be that due to how much international travel passes into/out of NY (more so than even other large cities like LA/Chicago) we had more people who brought this back from overseas than other US cities had, and thus sped up the transmission. It's just strange - are we (the US and NY especially) just botching things THAT badly? Is it all just due to more extensive testing?

South Korea had their first confirmed case on the same day as the USA. They immediately started testing on a massive scale, within a week, and have largely contained the issue. All these weeks later, the USA hasn't tested anywhere near enough, and you could argue there isn't as much necessity now - it is beyond irresponsible to go into a battle with a disease, if you don't pinpoint where it is.
 
Italy's new cases today: +5.217
New daily deaths: 756

Last three days the number of new cases were 5.974, 5.909, 6.203.
Last thee days the number of deaths were: 889, 919, 712.

Deaths aside, which say nothing right now, it is now clearly a trend. A declining trend.

While it's a good thing, this system has a shitload of lag to it. It could be declining during this infection phase, but in a week it could bounce up again.
 
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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Yeah and it doesn't even really make sense what he said there. Tapper said "Do you expect a million cases" and he says "That's off the charts" and then essentially changes his stance immediately and says he expects millions of cases.

Maybe Tapper was talking USA, and Fauci was thinking World?

It's hard to say, but regardless, Dr. Fauci's whole point was that models are based on assumptions, that we can never know in the moment whether those assumptions are going to be true, and that rarely do models pan out to be accurate when all is said and done, so we shouldn't be making projections and should instead focus on doing what we can to mitigate the damage right here in the moment.

womfalcs3 womfalcs3 listened to all of that and decided to pop in here to claim that 200,000 were going to die in the US according to Dr. Fauci. I think MSNBC should hire him.
 
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oatmeal

Banned
It's hard to say, but regardless, Dr. Fauci's whole point was that models are based on assumptions, that we can never know in the moment whether those assumptions are going to be true, and that rarely do models pan out to be accurate when all is said and done, so we shouldn't be making projections right here in the moment and should instead focus on doing what we can to mitigate the damage.

womfalcs3 womfalcs3 listened to all of that and decided to pop in here to claim that 200,000 were going to die in the US according to Dr. Fauci. I think MSNBC should hire him.
Right, which is why it's so weird that immediately he reverts his stance and casually throws out those numbers.
 
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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Right, which is why it's so weird that immediately he reverts his stance and casually throws out those numbers.

I don't think he was reversing his stance. He was just saying that, based on what we're seeing right now, it could be upwards of 200,000 deaths, but there's know way of knowing if those assumptions are correct, so projecting is pointless. Basically driving home the point that none of this is set in stone.
 
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Setzer

Member
I like your optimisim but we need more days of "decline" to make any judgements.

Where i live we had 3 days of decline and now its going back up again.

I will wait at least a week of decline before calling anything.

Yeah, we had 3 days last week where Italy's #'s dropped but went right back up. It's nice to see the #'s going down but we need to see this over a span of 5-7 days for it to be a trend in the right direction.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Right, which is why it's so weird that immediately he reverts his stance and casually throws out those numbers.

He was in the Clinton News Network, he loves the Clintons. He had a whisper in his ear. ;)

In all seriousness, that should never have been a talking point at this time, but CNN knows what they are doing. They now have their fear mongering headline to start out the week tomorrow.
 
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oatmeal

Banned
I don't think he was reversing his stance. He was just saying that, based on what we're seeing right now, it could be upwards of 200,000 deaths, but there's know way of knowing if those assumptions are correct, so projecting is pointless. Basically driving home the point that none of this is set in stone.
You're giving him more credit than I am. My theory is that CHYNA was just out of frame with Fauci and when he said the first thing, they hit him in the knee with a baton, causing him to drive more panic to the viewers.
 
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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
You're giving him more credit than I am. My theory is that CHYNA was just out of frame with Fauci and when he said the first thing, they hit him in the knee with a baton, causing him to drive more panic to the viewers.

Joking aside, he probably should have known better that CNN is just looking for a sound bite or sensational headline. Nuance is not possible with the mainstream media. Everything must be distilled.
 
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betrayal

Banned
While it's a good thing, this system has a shitload of lag to it. It could be declining during this infection phase, but in a week it could bounce up again.

No. Really, just no. The numbers can't suddenly start going up again. It's not possible. This is no optimism, but reality. The only scenario that could lead to that is if 20% or more suddenly ignore the lockdown. If most of them stick to the lockdown, then it is basically impossible for the numbers to increase again. Of course the numbers will fluctuate and there will also be days when the numbers increase in the three-digit range. But the general trend will be clearly pointing downwards.
 
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betrayal

Banned
Yeah, we had 3 days last week where Italy's #'s dropped but went right back up. It's nice to see the #'s going down but we need to see this over a span of 5-7 days for it to be a trend in the right direction.

Read one of my previous posts on this page. It is now very clear, that Italy peaked about a week ago. If people stick to the lockdown, then there are no other expected results.
 
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No. Really, just no. The numbers can't suddenly start going up again. It's not possible. This is no optimism, but reality. The only scenario that could lead to that is if 20% or more suddenly ignore the lockdown. If most of them stick to the lockdown, then it is basically impossible for the numbers to increase again.

Right now it is sitting in people who may not be symptomatic for a week or more. I'd expect cases to spike even if the overall trend is downwards.
 

betrayal

Banned
Right now it is sitting in people who may not be symptomatic for a week or more. I'd expect cases to spike even if the overall trend is downwards.

The lockdown in Italy is approaching the end of the third week. Asymptomatic people can no longer cause an increase for this reason. Not now and not in a week or two, because they cannot infect anyone because of the lockdown.
 

Jtibh

Banned
you living that Big Rock life?

cUcopEP.jpg
 


Good news.


Here is what I find troubling about following numbers like these. Were the same number of tests performed both days? Maybe they only tested 2500 people today and ended up with that lower number than on friday when they tested 5000 people? The U.S. has more positive cases than china now which would suggest a bigger issue. Well what if that is because they tested 5x as many people as china did which would jack the numbers up? Does that necessarily mean that the U.S. has more infected?

Add in the shit like even trusting their numbers and faulty tests and these numbers just start to feel meaningless after awhile.
 

Stouffers

Banned
The exact opposite.
The massive amount of testing that NY has done is a positive. If you remove NY test counts from the US number, it shows that the country is still failing miserably at testing.

I wish Deblasio had acted earlier on schools, and Cuomo had moved to 100% work from home a bit earlier, but they were still close to 1st to act.

NY is already seeing improvement due to the measures we've taken. It will always be a hot spot area due to density and the nature of these giant apartment buildings, but there's not much more you can ask for as a resident.
I can't imagine the panic that will set in for some who assume their area is safe now, but then realize they're surrounded when testing picks up.
I believe GA started closing schools before NYC Zane I remember seeing an interview where he was opposed to closing public transit.

Now, I’m not assigning blame to Cuomo.. we’re all in a fog of war, but let’s not pretend he’s made all the right decisions at the right time.
 

Coolwhhip

Neophyte
you mean like stop selling exotic meats for a privileged class of assholes in markets where animals shit and puke all over each other

Yeah and stop producing everything in shitty china, use more wealth on pandemic preparation, more hospital capacity and so on. The list is endless. But I have a feeling in a year were all care more about our cheaply in china produced iPhone.
 

Kadayi

Banned


UK update 19522(+2433) which represents a 14% gain, which is an actual drop on the previous 2 days of 25% % 17% gains, which would indicate that the social distancing and lockdown approach is perhaps starting to bear fruit to some degree. When it comes to the 6961 new tests carried out 34.9% were found positive, which maintains the present ratio of roughly 1 in 3.

I think based on the current numbers, the government is probably hoping for the gain to be less than 12% tomorrow which would come out to a rise just shy of 22K.
 
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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Here is what I find troubling about following numbers like these. Were the same number of tests performed both days? Maybe they only tested 2500 people today and ended up with that lower number than on friday when they tested 5000 people? The U.S. has more positive cases than china now which would suggest a bigger issue. Well what if that is because they tested 5x as many people as china did which would jack the numbers up? Does that necessarily mean that the U.S. has more infected?

Add in the shit like even trusting their numbers and faulty tests and these numbers just start to feel meaningless after awhile.

Basically this. Japan's confirmed case numbers are extremely low because they don't test. They've been lucky to not see almost any deaths, but we know community spread has been there for months.

Testing is very much a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing in regards to media coverage and general perception.
 

betrayal

Banned
Here is what I find troubling about following numbers like these. Were the same number of tests performed both days? Maybe they only tested 2500 people today and ended up with that lower number than on friday when they tested 5000 people? The U.S. has more positive cases than china now which would suggest a bigger issue. Well what if that is because they tested 5x as many people as china did which would jack the numbers up? Does that necessarily mean that the U.S. has more infected?

Add in the shit like even trusting their numbers and faulty tests and these numbers just start to feel meaningless after awhile.

That makes no sense. Even if they test less than before, which is certainly not the case, the number of cases must inevitably decrease due to the lockdown. We also know that more than enough people in Italy respect the lockdown.
The principle of a lockdown is that people have almost only contact with people from their own household. For all other important things there are distance rules, mask duty and other regulations. If these rules are respected, then a lockdown can only lead to a decrease in the number of cases.

I can understand why people are always sceptical about good news, after all 99% of the media are already acting as if we are all already half dead. But it is up to each individual to inform themselves, to think for themselves and to draw the appropriate conclusions. If you look at it very rationally and go strictly by the facts, you can only come to the conclusion that the virus is being fucked in the ass in Italy.

Just trust numbers, facts and known models and don't let yourself be guided by emotions or money-hungry sensationalist media.
 
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All Hail C-Webb

Hailing from the Chill-Web
I believe GA started closing schools before NYC Zane I remember seeing an interview where he was opposed to closing public transit.

Now, I’m not assigning blame to Cuomo.. we’re all in a fog of war, but let’s not pretend he’s made all the right decisions at the right time.

He absolutely could and should have been quicker. It was a mistake, it cost lives, but then they got on the right track, and that's all I'm hoping for from everyone else.
He can't close public transport unless he finds a secure way to get essential workers to their work.

But, if you think that Cuomo and Deblasio were slow, you must be appalled at Governers like DeSantis, and others who have still taken inadequate actions. Or our federal government that still has no proper national measures in place?
 
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Joe T.

Member
Wait, hold up ... when you say "convincing ... people into believing conspiracy theories and outright lies" you're not talking about Tucker and Fox news?

I'm talking about the media as a whole, but I had some of the biggest stories of recent times in mind when I said that like the "very fine people" hoax that came out of the Charlottesville, Virginia protests in August 2017 that still persists today. It becomes more difficult to believe something propagated and perpetuated by so many different sources isn't true than if it was only pushed by one source or a minority - people tend to side with the majority even when it's wrong.

Our numbers of new daily cases in the province of Quebec, which is Canada's hot spot, more or less stabilized a few days ago even though we saw a minor hiccup yesterday, but the news even here seems to pay very little attention to that. It's unfortunate because it's one of the more important indicators of whether or not the measures put in place are working.

Bad news sells better than good news.
 
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sinnergy

Member
OMG our Dutch CDC now admits their models are not being reached but their worst case scenarios are ... good work people .. it’s not rocket science! Like I shouted weeks ago! Lock down ! And your herd immunity experiment failed, just like I predicted..

They should give me their job.. good thing I tweeted our PM my plan weeks ago 🤣 (true story)

Now you ffed us. 🤡
 
OMG our Dutch CDC now admits their models are not being reached but their worst case scenarios are ... good work people .. it’s not rocket science! Like I shouted weeks ago! Lock down ! And your herd immunity experiment failed, just like I predicted..

They should give me their job.. good thing I tweeted our PM my plan weeks ago 🤣 (true story)

Now you ffed us. 🤡

This is the kind of reason I hate "Progressive" government. The midst of a crisis is not the time to try a science experiment with people's lives - it's time to pay up on all those tax dollars people pay for those crises.

People aren't objects to optimized and fiddled with.
 
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SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
Yep, I've been spraying down my shoes outside as well as the floor of the car after I go shopping.

Keep a can of Lysol with you, people. Cleaning wipes can spread pathogens instead of killing them, so spray everything (handles, keypads, checkouts, etc.).
Apparently there is no proof the virus can be on your shoes. Or can be transmitted via your shoes. But everybody I know has a bottle of chlorine water outside their doorsteps. Technically the food we get from the supermarket can carry it and food that you can't keep in your car for 3 days (frozen) is worse?
 
That makes no sense. Even if they test less than before, which is certainly not the case, the number of cases must inevitably decrease due to the lockdown. We also know that more than enough people in Italy respect the lockdown.
The principle of a lockdown is that people have almost only contact with people from their own household. For all other important things there are distance rules, mask duty and other regulations. If these rules are respected, then a lockdown can only lead to a decrease in the number of cases.

I can understand why people are always sceptical about good news, after all 99% of the media are already acting as if we are all already half dead. But it is up to each individual to inform themselves, to think for themselves and to draw the appropriate conclusions. If you look at it very rationally and go strictly by the facts, you can only come to the conclusion that the virus is being fucked in the ass in Italy.

Just trust numbers, facts and known models and don't let yourself be guided by emotions or money-hungry sensationalist media.

Haha I think you got me all wrong, go back and read any of the other posts I've made in here, I'm not guided by my emotions and most definitely not by the "money hungry sensationalist media". I've been a proponent for lockdowns and their efficacy from the beginning. I havent been speaking about this situation hyperbolically or fear mongering. I am not sceptical about good news.

I understand the need to trot out your schtick continuously in this thread and honestly for the most part your posts are a nice change compared to the typical doom and gloom, but your response to what I was talking about is misguided.

It was an example. The numbers in my example arent real. It was an example to illustrate that the amount of variables are so high that the numbers almost reach a point of worthlessness. As with the example @Zefah pointed out, if one would look at the worlds numbers of positive cases they would be like "damn, Japan has barely any infections!". But is it because of the measures they've put in place or is it because they are simply not testing nearly as much?

In order for all these infection rate numbers to resemble any sort of across the board legitimacy there would have to be some sort of standardization happening. Every day each country tests 25,000 people, then we compare numbers or something like that. And even then there are so many variables involved (maybe one country mainly tested large urban areas vs another country that tested more rural areas) that can skew the numbers.

The whole point I'm trying to make is when people are posting these giant scoreboards showing one country higher on the list than another country, it is kinda silly. Those scoreboards have a tenuous tangibility at best. If anything they should be used to gauge what's happening within a country, not seeing how they stack up against another country.

As a footnote, I'm assuming it must be tiring but keep up the "outside the box" style of discussing the situations happening cause it is refreshing to see a different point of view. It is really easy to be caught in the mire of doom and gloom.
 
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llien

Member
Japan's confirmed case numbers are extremely low because they don't test. They've been lucky to not see almost any deaths...
The first and the second sentence do not add up.
You think situation in NY would be better if they weren't testing?

Nearly all Japanese wear masks in public, as do Koreans and Chinese, it protects the wearers, but much more importantly, it shields the infected. That alone cannot not have a major impact on spreading.

...the amount of variables are so high...
Uh, is there? Are we at the point when we doubt number of deaths/people in critical condition in non-commie world?
 
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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
OMG our Dutch CDC now admits their models are not being reached but their worst case scenarios are ... good work people .. it’s not rocket science! Like I shouted weeks ago! Lock down ! And your herd immunity experiment failed, just like I predicted..

Wait, how are you determining that herd immunity "experiment" failed? Herd immunity is the only way out of this unless the world is prepared to lockdown for more than a year while a vaccine is developed, tested, and then manufactured in the billions. We know the world is not prepared for that and it would absolutely mean the collapse of multiple governments. We just need to take measures that slow the spread so we don't overwhelm hospitals. We still need almost everyone to get infected at some point.

The first and the second sentence do not add up.
You think situation in NY would be better if they weren't testing?

Nearly all Japanese wear masks in public, as do Koreans and Chinese, it protects the wearers, but much more importantly, it shields the infected. That alone cannot not have a major impact on spreading.

I'm not against testing and doing contact tracing at all, but it in and of itself does not really accomplish much unless people turning up positive are truly being quarantined. Just saying that the perception is that things are better when you don't test (assuming your death numbers are also low). We know that Japan has way more than 1000 ~ 2000 infected. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.
 
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cryptoadam

Banned
If you look at the charts (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/) you can see Italy obviously already peaked about a week ago. There has been no percentage increase in daily cases for a week now. Italy has managed to increase the doubling time of cases by 100%. Next week the case numbers will definitely decrease further. In absolute numbers, not every day of course, but the trend will be very clear.

Where do you live btw?

Im in Montreal QC. We are the epicenter of Canada. We have more cases in our city than any Province (5 more than Ontario WINNING). about 2 weeks ago we had less cases than BC/Onatrio/Alberta and have surged right past them. I am living in the epicenter of the Canadian outbreak. I am basically living in the Lombardy of Canada unless things get better.

Today the province and city had a down day. But Sunday's always have odd numbers. We had a big dump of cases a couple of days ago because we started counting all cases and not waiting for one lab to confirm anything, and since then the numbers have been steady in the 300-500 range. Today is a down day but we will see what tomorrow brings.

If my city doesn't get this under control we are going to be Italy v2. We are basically 10 days away from 10K cases if things don't turn around.
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
I understand and fully respect all the thanks and praises healthcare workers get and it's well deserved.
But at the same time - they swore an oath and choose this line of work. Nobody forced anyone to become a doctor. Sadly, the good comes with the bad.
One thing to get out of this - nurses in Poland earn way too little
 
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Apparently there is no proof the virus can be on your shoes. Or can be transmitted via your shoes. But everybody I know has a bottle of chlorine water outside their doorsteps. Technically the food we get from the supermarket can carry it and food that you can't keep in your car for 3 days (frozen) is worse?

I got most of my stuff weeks ago, but I've been spraying nonperishables in cans and plastic package as I buy them, and I cooked perishables immediately and threw away the containers. Also got stuff from the back in case of some idiot licking them, but I do that anyway.

Shoes get cleaned, clothes get thrown in the washer.

Chlorine water is a bad idea if you have other options - it will bleach your clothes and shoes. Lysol is fine - it might discolor them slightly over time, but it is not going to ruin them.
 

cryptoadam

Banned
Okay, come on...

Giuliani has Tweet deleted for "spreading misinformation" about HCQ.


Look at the fucking picture they used. I'm legit lol'ing.

BB11RIQA.img

And this is how the rich and powerful will control the pleebs from knowing about a cure.

I am guessing the issue here is that since Trump talked about HQ now any one talking about the studies and clinical trials of it should be blocked from twitter. Whats worse than the Corona virus? Trump touting a cure for it and being correct. ORANGE MAN BAD guys. ORANGE MAN BAD!
 

sinnergy

Member
Wait, how are you determining that herd immunity "experiment" failed? Herd immunity is the only way out of this unless the world is prepared to lockdown for more than a year while a vaccine is developed, tested, and then manufactured in the billions. We know the world is not prepared for that and it would absolutely mean the collapse of multiple governments. We just need to take measures that slow the spread so we don't overwhelm hospitals. We still need almost everyone to get infected at some point.



I'm not against testing and doing contact tracing at all, but it in and of itself does not really accomplish much unless people turning up positive are truly being quarantined. Just saying that the perception is that things are better when you don't test (assuming your death numbers are also low). We know that Japan has way more than 1000 ~ 2000 infected. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.
After a full lock down a herd immunity traject could work, yes. But first you need some breathing room, full strict lock down.

We just proved it doesn’t work with this virus. Take your experiments to the class room with influenza viruses.
 
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