Support NeoGAF

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Not for nothing, but if a hobby of mine was partially responsible for dozens of mass murders each year, I'd want to re-evaluate whether that was a hobby I could continue to be involved in.

Having a firearm with the intent to shoot clay pigeons is not the same as owning a firearm with the intent to maim or kill someone.

We can't generalize all gun holders. I know responsible gun owners, and it would be reckless of me to group them with idiots like this person.

 

[Enron]

who the fuck cares if he's mentally ill or not. He's a mass murderer.

 

[phanphare]

That's the whole problem, though. how do you want to control that? People might become mentally unstable over time. And what's the need for normal citizens to have such easy access to guns anyways? To protect yourself from all the other "normal" citizens with guns perhaps? Yeah that's a vicious circle right there...

the 2nd amendment exists to protect the citizens of our country against a corrupt government

 

[Amir0x]

I agree, evil is not a useful word. The universe has no inherent coding for good or bad; it's not making any judgments, no matter how fucked up a crime we see committed. Universe don't give a fuck.

So as such, "evil" doesn't literally exist. It's an abstraction meant to classify people so abhorrent to our sensibilities that we need to put them in a special class of "bad." But it does sometimes cloud people's ability to properly analyze issues, because they want to see really bad people as "monsters" instead of human beings who might have any number of traumatic stories in their past or shitty wiring in their brains or whatever

 

[entremet]

Please define "evil."

I just don't find it to be a very useful word. It gets tossed around a lot after tragedies like this with no clarity of meaning.

Edit: And would you look at that. Post #666.

Evil exists guys. My bad.

Not getting your line of reason. Seems like you're bringing your own baggage here to this discussion.

Look at Merriam Webster's definition.

: morally bad

: causing harm or injury to someone

 

[RP912]

Racists use to kill black people all the time, hell lynching was literally a family event. Then civil rights happen and things got kinda of better. Google black wall street, Rosewood, the Tulsa riots, etc

Also google Lockheed workplace shooting . The fact that the company wanted to look past the fact that the shooting was race related despite the evidence makes my blood boil.

 

[JDSN]

I just saw the initials news on the shooting, I figured out there was a racial component when I saw mental illness mentioned like eight time in the last page. You CAN suffer from mental illness and being a racist by the way.

 

[jWILL253]

EDIT: Seen the edit.

 

[Amir0x]

who the fuck cares if he's mentally ill or not. He's a mass murderer.

I care? Being a mass murderer doesn't exclude the necessity of finding the root causes, and pretending that someone doesn't have a mental illness just because they did a really really bad thing doesn't help any situation.

Because if we actually want to prevent things like this from happening and not just satisfy our insane bloodlust for vengeance against these "evil" criminals, then on top of strict gun control there needs to be extensive funding poured into mental health care in this country.

 

[THM]

Has there been any word if the killer was on anti-depressants or other strong medication? I'm not trying to excuse his behavior whatsoever - it was horrendous and despicable and my thoughts go out to the families of the victims.

It just seems like time and time again, these mass murders are linked to some drug. And you can't help but wonder if one of the side effects is the loss of control over pre-existing hatred and violent thoughts.

 

[afternoon delight]

As someone living in the American south, anti-black racism is blatant as fuck, not surprised just saddened. Straight up equivalent to the church bombings in the sixties. Buying and proudly displaying Apartheid gear? Fucking revolting.

 

[Druz]

the 2nd amendment exists to protect the citizens of our country against a corrupt government

But is it really? Made sense a few hundred years ago. Today, guns just give you a very false sense of security.

 

[| Praxis |]

What is your point?

Because it sounds like you're trying to defend this dude.

They certainly wasn't trying to defend this guy. I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

 

[Dude Abides]

Not getting your line of reason. Seems like you're bring your own baggage here.

Look at Merriam Webster's definition.

His point is that it's an adjective, not an explanation, but the kind of person who complains about liberals being afraid of using the word tends to use it as the latter.

 

[Slayven]

I agree, evil is not a useful word. The universe has no inherent coding for good or bad; it's not making any judgments, no matter how fucked up a crime we see committed. Universe don't give a fuck.

So as such, "evil" doesn't literally exist. It's an abstraction meant to classify people so abhorrent to our sensibilities that we need to put them in a special class of "bad." But it does sometimes cloud people's ability to properly analyze issues, because they want to see really bad people as "monsters" instead of human beings who might have any number of traumatic stories in their past or shitty wiring in their brains or whatever

If they are white otherwise they are thugs or terrorists

 

[SteveO409]

http://emanuelamechurch.org/

If you want to donate to the church

 

[platocplx]

the 2nd amendment exists to protect the citizens of our country against a corrupt government

it seems like that has transformed to fearing your neighbor. vs overall fear of the govt. where you see many people who are gun crazy, with key words(dog whistles) like patriotism and taking back their country etc and politicians are driving/controlling them utilizing that kind of rhetoric.

 

[Amir0x]

Has there been any word if the killer was on anti-depressants or other strong medication? I'm not trying to excuse his behavior whatsoever - it was horrendous and despicable and my thoughts go out to the families of the victims.

It just seems like time and time again, these mass murders are linked to some drug. And you can't help but wonder if one of the side effects is the loss of control over pre-existing hatred and violent thoughts.

people tend to be on drugs because they have metal health issues. Psychotic side effects are clearly stated as a very rare side effect in certain drugs.

But the issue is there's no way to tell if it's the drugs not working for the individual and their mental health issues become so dominant they lose control, or if they actually experienced one of those rare psychotic breaks.

Odds are, though, it's the drugs not working.

If they are white

Hey you know how I feel about this, I'm just expressing the ideal of how things should be.

 

[entremet]

I care? Being a mass murderer doesn't exclude the necessity of finding the root causes, and pretending that someone doesn't have a mental illness just because they did a really really bad thing doesn't help any situation.

Because if we actually want to prevent things like this from happening and not just satisfy our insane bloodlust for vengeance against these "evil" criminals, then on top of strict gun control there needs to be extensive funding poured into mental health care in this country.

It's not even about blood lust of depicting humans as monsters as morality only exist in the human realm.

We don't expect animals to have morality. This is a unique human problem, going since humanity recorded history.

Hence condemning evil has nothing to do with simplifying issue.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I care? Being a mass murderer doesn't exclude the necessity of finding the root causes, and pretending that someone doesn't have a mental illness just because they did a really really bad thing doesn't help any situation.

Because if we actually want to prevent things like this from happening and not just satisfy our insane bloodlust for vengeance against these "evil" criminals, then on top of strict gun control there needs to be extensive funding poured into mental health care in this country.

No one knows whether this man has a mental illness or not, and the preemptive attempts at making him more sympathetic by positing that he does are rubbing many people the wrong way.

What you're saying has merit in a more general fashion but is currently inapplicable here.

 

[TanookiTom]

We need better background checks when purchasing firearms. From my own experience, purchasing a gun permit was this:

1. Fill out a 2 page application, explain why you want to purchase a firearm (recreational or home protection)

2. Wait 3 days.

3. Pay $5 for gun permit. Go buy gun.

It was that easy.

I didn't need to wait (beyond shipping) or pay for a permit when I bought a revolver from an out-of-state dealer who had it transferred to an in-state dealer (who then transferred it to me). I was actually a bit dumbfounded about how simple the whole process was. It all seemed massively exploitable.

Just out of curiosity (as a European buying a weapon has never even crossed my mind) - why did you guys buy a weapon in the first place?

the 2nd amendment exists to protect the citizens of our country against a corrupt government

Do you really think this is still an effective measure in today's world? I think this is a dangerous notion, even. Apparently the guy who killed those people thought he should take justice/saving the country in his own hands as well.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

the 2nd amendment exists to protect the citizens of our country against a corrupt government

States against the federal government.

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

But is it really? Made sense a few hundred years ago. Today, guns just give you a very false sense of security.

That was the original impetus, but it has other uses today. For example, no country would have an easy time of launching a land invasion of the US since a large swathe of the population has personal arms. Guns were also necessary for defense against wildlife and to gather sustenance for a lot of people until the turn of the 20th century. Europe had eliminated or pushed back its dangerous wildlife for centuries before America was settled coast-to-coast.

 

[sphagnum]

He looks evil as hell in that picture

The orange/red/blue flag is the flag of South Africa during the apartheid period.

Shocking!

 

[The Llama]

That was the original impetus, but it has other uses today. For example, no country would have an easy time of launching a land invasion of the US since a large swathe of the population has personal arms. Guns were also necessary for defense against wildlife and to gather sustenance for a lot of people until the turn of the 20th century. Europe had eliminated or pushed back its dangerous wildlife for centuries before America was settled coast-to-coast.

So we need the 2nd amendment to protect ourselves from a land invasion?! What?!

 

[The Beard]

linked picture

anyone have an idea what the patches are?

Maybe he meant having a bowl cut in 2015?

If only they had access to social media back then. The Beard could have diagnosed them all and helped millions of people get treatment.

I look at that pic and I see an unstable person. The lone subject in a picture looking at the camera like he wants to kill it, the classic head tilted down eyes looking up psychotic look, the soulless look in his eyes, those patches really seal the deal, the bowl cut. Nothing about it says "normal" and well adjusted to me.

Let's just say, this pic alone should've prevented this guy from ever getting a gun.

 

[phanphare]

But is it really? Made sense a few hundred years ago. Today, guns just give you a very false sense of security.

yes it is really, that's why the amendment exists. I agree about the false sense of security in this day and age but it's better than nothing. I don't want to derail this discussion but just look around. you don't think a day will come when the citizens of our country will have to revolt against the government? our country was founded by rebels who had a general distrust in government, hence the existence of that amendment.

it seems like that has transformed to fearing your neighbor. vs overall fear of the govt. where you see many people who are gun crazy, with key words(dog whistles) like patriotism and taking back their country etc and politicians are driving/controlling them utilizing that kind of rhetoric.

our country in its current state is pretty fucked, no arguments there

 

[Nokagi]

There's crazy and then there's mental illness. This guy is just crazy. He knew exactly what he was doing and even told people there why he was doing it. He let one woman go just so she could tell people what he had done. Crazy racist with crazy racist ideas. Don't shield him with the label of mental illness. Bury this fuck under the jail(or in the ground).

 

[Clinton514]

I care? Being a mass murderer doesn't exclude the necessity of finding the root causes, and pretending that someone doesn't have a mental illness just because they did a really really bad thing doesn't help any situation.

Because if we actually want to prevent things like this from happening and not just satisfy our insane bloodlust for vengeance against these "evil" criminals, then on top of strict gun control there needs to be extensive funding poured into mental health care in this country.

Prevent people from choosing to do something stupid or not? Good luck.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Just out of curiosity (as a European buying a weapon has never even crossed my mind) - why did you guys buy a weapon in the first place?

Home defense.

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

So we need the 2nd amendment to protect ourselves from a land invasion?! What?!

We don't need it. It's just a benefit of having it.

 

[BokehKing]

Hope they catch him alive, too many times they take the cowards way out



Edit; then again, him being alive can make things worst.

 

[Kreuzader]

Oh Fox:

http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/06/18/foxs-steve-doocy-its-extraordinary-that-charles/204043

"Fox's Steve Doocy: It's Extraordinary That Charleston Church Shooting Is Being Called A Hate Crime"

 

[KingGondo]

Let's just say, this pic alone should've prevented this guy from ever getting a gun.

C'mon breh.

 

[Ke0]

I look at that pic and I see an unstable person. The lone subject in a picture looking at the camera like he wants to kill it, the classic head tilted down eyes looking up psychotic look, those patches really seal the deal, the bowl cut. Nothing about it says "normal" and well adjusted to me.

I have pictures where I look at a camera like that because I didn't feel like being in the place I was at the time or didn't want my photo taken, and I can assure you I'm of sound mind.

Not a very good litmus test on who is/isn't well adjusted.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Home defense.

Yeah and I got my first computer for educational purposes same reason I ever look at porn. Why do you really buy them?

 

[Ayt]

I look at that pic and I see an unstable person. The lone subject in a picture looking at the camera like he wants to kill it, the classic head tilted down eyes looking up psychotic look, those patches really seal the deal, the bowl cut. Nothing about it says "normal" and well adjusted to me.

Let's just say, this pic alone should've prevented this guy from ever getting a gun.

You are seeing what you want to see after the fact.

 

[Disheveled_Zen]

Of course it is, and I am a massive proponent of stricter gun laws. Unfortunately, you can never account for every single variable. But, having a history of past behavior is usually a pretty good indicator of future behavior, major injuries/TBIs not withstanding.

We need better background checks when purchasing firearms. From my own experience, purchasing a gun permit was this:

1. Fill out a 2 page application, explain why you want to purchase a firearm (recreational or home protection)

2. Wait 3 days.

3. Pay $5 for gun permit. Go buy gun.

It was that easy.

I didn't even do this for my pistol. I walked in, told them what I wanted, filled a form out, the store called a number to run a background check while I walked around the store. 10 minutes later I was clear and walking out with a gun in hand.

In response to the question of why do we own a gun. I can't speak for everyone but for myself I live near a very large city and my gf is often times home alone. It's there for an "in case" situation and really nothing more. It's a bad cycle, you know that others who come to do harm might be armed because they think you might be armed, so you go out and get armed, and it goes round and round.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Just out of curiosity (as a European buying a weapon has never even crossed my mind) - why did you guys buy a weapon in the first place?

I grew up in a family of hunters, so I was trained with a rifle as well as a bow. I never actually really got into hunting though (don't like sitting in the cold) but I did enjoy target shooting (both firearm and archery). It was one of the few things that I am able to concentrate fully on, akin to something like martial arts for some (which archery actually is in some cultures). I'm also a mechanically inclined person who likes looking at machines, taking them apart, and tinkering with them. So I gravitated to the mechanics of firearms as well. With that all said, I support some forms of stricter gun control.

 

[Fenderputty]

Thanks, I will. Everyone else seems keen on doing it in political threads, after all.

You're better than this dude. Go read the tweet

 

[THM]

Do you really think this is still an effective measure in today's world?

Irrespective of it's effectiveness, a sweeping overhaul of gun laws in this country just isn't going to happen in the current political landscape unless the 2nd amendment is repealed. Or at least interpreted very differently in a Supreme Court case.

You can discuss how outdated it is until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't matter. The amendment is currently a part of the Constitution and there is a very vocal group of people who are going to fight for their rights (as they interpret them) so long as it exists.

 

[SecretSphere]

Has there been any word if the killer was on anti-depressants or other strong medication? I'm not trying to excuse his behavior whatsoever - it was horrendous and despicable and my thoughts go out to the families of the victims.

It just seems like time and time again, these mass murders are linked to some drug. And you can't help but wonder if one of the side effects is the loss of control over pre-existing hatred and violent thoughts.

Or maybe people who have violent and erratic tendencies are just more likely to get medication and we would have seen more tragedies if those people didn't receive medication.

 

[TanookiTom]

Home defense.

But wouldn't there be a lot less need for this if other people wouldn't be carrying guns? I know that I would feel very unsafe if I'd knew that all my neighbors have guns in their homes...

Irrespective of it's effectiveness, a sweeping overhaul of gun laws in this country just isn't going to happen in the current political landscape unless the 2nd amendment is repealed. Or at least interpreted very differently in a Supreme Court case.

You can discuss how outdated it is until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't matter. The amendment is currently a part of the Constitution and there is a very vocal group of people who are going to fight for their rights (as they interpret them) so long as it exists.

Yes I know. I am actually half-American and this topic frustrates me a lot although I've been living in Germany for most of my life.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Yeah and I got my first computer for educational purposes same reason I ever look at porn. Why do you really buy them?

You serious? Why else would I own one?

 

[Amir0x]

No one knows whether this man has a mental illness or not, and the preemptive attempts at making him more sympathetic by positing that he does are rubbing many people the wrong way.

What you're saying has merit in a more general fashion but is currently inapplicable here.

I don't care if it rubs people the wrong way, because my motivations are pure and it is applicable.

We don't know if he actually has a mental health issue, but you know one of the first things the police are going to do when they arrest him? Run a mental health evaluation. Why? Because statistics show that people who commit crimes like this are waaaaay more likely to have a mental disability.

So if we want to prevent a huge number of these crazy racist nutbars from actually committing these crimes, we need to fight the root causes. Which go beyond merely fixing the institutional racism and whatnot, but also addressing the mental health issues in this country. Mental Health Care is wildly underfunded in this country.

I am not "assuming" he has a mental disability, but I do think the odds are good - because the statistics say so. It doesn't mean I'm excusing his behavior or that I think he's not a racist asshole who took the lives of many innocent people callously. The whole situation breaks my heart, because it shows how far we have to come in so many different areas.

In other words, we can acknowledge multiple possible complexities of a situation like this without making any excuse for the behavior and while being proactive to prevent future cases.

It's not even about blood lust of depicting humans as monsters as morality only exist in the human realm.

We don't expect animals to have morality. This is a unique human problem, going since humanity recorded history.

Hence condemning evil has nothing to do with simplifying issue.

It doesn't necessarily simplify the issue, but by the very nature of the way people utilize it - very much in a good vs. evil storybook painting way - it often muddies the reality, painting over it with broad strokes and awkward lines, so that in the end we're left with caricatures of human beings instead of incredibly complex organisms who can fail in any number of zillion ways. Evil is just a black/white indicator. Yes, this dude is a bad guy. Where does that leave us?

 

[entremet]

There's crazy and then there's mental illness. This guy is just crazy. He knew exactly what he was doing and even told people there why he was doing it. He let one woman go just so she could tell people what he had done. Crazy racist with crazy racist ideas. Don't shield him with the label of mental illness. Bury this fuck under the jail(or in the ground).

You're letting him off easy if you just think he's crazy.

He's a cold blooded racist killer. Unless we get a professional diagnosis to prove otherwise, I'm not gonna absolve him for being "crazy".

I don't care if it rubs people the wrong way, because my motivations are pure and it is applicable.

We don't know if he actually has a mental health issue, but you know one of the first things the police are going to do when they arrest him? Run a mental health evaluation. Why? Because statistics show that people who commit crimes like this are waaaaay more likely to have a mental disability.

So if we want to prevent a huge number of these crazy racist nutbars from actually committing these crimes, we need to fight the root causes. Which go beyond merely fixing the institutional racism and whatnot, but also addressing the mental health issues in this country. Mental Health Care is wildly underfunded in this country.

I am not "assuming" he has a mental disability, but I do think the odds are good - because the statistics say so. It doesn't mean I'm excusing his behavior or that I think he's not a racist asshole who took the lives of many innocent people callously. The whole situation breaks my heart, because it shows how far we have to come in so many different areas.

In other words, we can acknowledge multiple possible complexities of a situation like this without making any excuse for the behavior and while being proactive to prevent future cases.



It doesn't necessarily simplify the issue, but by the very nature of the way people utilize it - very much in a good vs. evil storybook painting way - it often muddies the reality, painting over it with broad strokes and awkward lines, so that in the end we're left with caricatures of human beings instead of incredibly complex organisms who can fail in any number of zillion ways. Evil is just a black/white indicator. Yes, this dude is a bad guy. Where does that leave us?

That was just one comment when the discussion was veering toward the mental illness excuse.

Moreover, a description is not prescription. Describing something as morally reprehensible does not shutdown discussion for solutions or causes. That's another line of discussion. It' just one I'd rather not personally discuss since the case is still early--lack of details and the like.

 

[The Llama]

That license plate...

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

I dislike using the word "evil" for criminal behaviour for the same reason I dislike saying "god did it" for knowledge gaps: it feels like it explains things and convieniently labels the incident, but actually offers no explanatory power.

You can still call it evil if you choose (or say God is behind things if you so believe), but inquiry shouldn't stop there.

The real problem is one of perception, the same problem that plagues essentially all bad information humanity has. The perpetrators of things like this, if not genuinely suffering a mental illness that would cause them to act, are either not getting information to humanize the victims, not seeing that information, or outright rejecting that information.

 

[Lonestar]

linked picture

anyone have an idea what the patches are?

Maybe already answered, but from a Yahoo article I just read:

Roof is wearing a jacket with emblazoned with the flags of Rhodesia, an unrecognized South African state that later became part of Zimbabwe, and apartheid-era South Africa

yep...

 

[massoluk]

the 2nd amendment exists to protect the citizens of our country against a corrupt government

The 2nd Amendment was solution to the problem:
-interstate arbitration processes to handle quarrels between states;
-sufficiently trained and armed intrastate security forces to suppress insurrection;
-a national militia to repel foreign invaders.

That's right, it was created to stop civil rebellion, not to encourage one.