Support NeoGAF

[Ponn]

I just hope we get an all Joker boy band.

 

[Poodlestrike]

JSA = YES, FINALLY

Did not like the New 52 remix at all, totally point-missing treatment of characters whose appeal is based on their being from the golden age.

Watchmen...part of my mind says ugh, fuck off...the rest is thankful that it somehow took this long. DC is flailing right now, they needed a move like that.

Earth 2 was fantastic though.

And it's not like they're introducing the Watchmen as street level heroes or whatever. Manhattan is used as a storytelling device.

Oh really?

Sounds like she was instructed to go back on that, because it was easy to tell she meant it at the time.

Eh, not really. The way the panel was set up, the KJ stuff certainly seemed to be part of the "real" memories. Stewart briefly flirted with taking an "it's fake if you want it to be" sort of stance on Twitter before walking that back as well.

 

[Dorpheus]

Three Jokers is weird, but I'm open to it if it makes for good stories. A bit surprised they went for three, but I suppose this opens the door to a death related pun about how a new 52 card deck usually only comes with two Jokers, not three.

 

[KOMANI]

Earth 2 was fantastic though.

And it's not like they're introducing the Watchmen as street level heroes or whatever. Manhattan is used as a storytelling device.

I thought that the easiest way of explaining all the reboots and rebirth was that a Flash (Wally or Bart) were traveling through universes and time, stopping crimes before they happened. But the one crime they couldn't stop was the murder of Nora Allen.
It's simple and goes with the Flash Mythos.

 

[Poodlestrike]

I thought that the easiest way of explaining all the reboots and rebirth was that a Flash (Wally or Bart) were traveling through universes and time, stopping crimes before they happened. But the one crime they couldn't stop was the murder of Nora Allen.
It's simple and goes with the Flash Mythos.

I think they did that storyline in the regular Flash book, with Future Barry fucking things up. Again.

But that doesn't really seem to be the point here.

edit: From the IGN review:

That's not to say DCU Rebirth #1 is a mea culpa. This comic isn't about begging readers for forgiveness and hitting a reset button that drags the universe back to its circa-2010 status quo. There's not even really any continuity pruning at work. Johns goes out of his way here to reflect the fact that everything in the New 52 still happened and won't simply be wiped away with the wave of a hand. He even finds a way to reconcile the existence of both versions of Wally West. Which, frankly, seems like more trouble than it's worth, but it's all part of the idea that every character matters and nothing in this massive universe deserves to be discarded or abandoned.

Can we all agree to stop with the "another DC reboot" hot takes?

 

[Alienous]

Three Jokers is weird, but I'm open to it if it makes for good stories. A bit surprised they went for three, but I suppose this opens the door to a death related pun about how a new 52 card deck usually only comes with two Jokers, not three.

Now I'm really surprised they went for 3, seeing as you mentioned that.

I can see Endgame Joker not being the real Joker. That was a theory lobbied around when Endgame was being released. He didn't smile or act very Joker-ish at all.

But 3 Jokers seems weird. Like, the New 52 leaves no room for 'boners' Joker in continuity. So if there's three you're basically saying 3 Jokers from 3 different universes, which they've already established applies to all characters.

Maybe it'll get tied together into a well executed idea.

 

[ElNarez]

That "line" being every hack writer over the last 30 years who indulged in gritty grimdark superheroes. It's not Watchmen's fault that a majority of the writers who tried emulating it both missed the point and were bad at it.

Again, Pandora's Box. Watchmen was so big, so total in its approach, that cape comics simply could not be the same after that.

 

[Fuu]

I always liked how Morrison dealt with the idea of "different Jokers" in Batman #663 by showing how deeply he's capable of reinventing himself in his own twisted mind. Hope this 3 Jokers thing doesn't erase that.

 

[Savitar]

Eh, not really. The way the panel was set up, the KJ stuff certainly seemed to be part of the "real" memories. Stewart briefly flirted with taking an "it's fake if you want it to be" sort of stance on Twitter before walking that back as well.

The stance on the killing joke by the author was easy to see, and considering it was pushed that they "might have done a thing" and then the issue came out that said it was fake until said "walk back" suggest to me no the author was told it wasn't going to be that way.

 

[Poodlestrike]

The stance on the killing joke by the author was easy to see, and considering it was pushed that they "might have done a thing" and then the issue came out that said it was fake until said "walk back" suggest to me no the author was told it wasn't going to be that way.

I think, speaking broadly, that the current Batgirl team would LOVE to be able to dispose of TKJ, as evidenced by their strenuous efforts to separate Babs from it and, really, the entire rest of her connections to the Batfamily (other than Luke and Dick). I also don't think that that's really what they tried to do, for the very simple reason that I don't think Editorial would let them do it in the first place. So any in-issue retcon was ambiguous at best.

 

[BKatastrophe]

So what's the time loss they refer to?

edit: From the IGN review:



Can we all agree to stop with the "another DC reboot" hot takes?

Sounds like just another reboot

Spoiler

hehehehehehe

 

[Coffee Dog]

I dont get how it isnt a reboot. They reboted the new 52 so that the old universe is now canon again.

 

[Dr.Social]

Three Jokers?

We finally have a villain for BatmanBatmanBatman

 

[Slayven]

I agree this isn't a reboot. DC has turned a simple reboot process into a mess. Just call it a DC.

 

[Blader]

I think there's probably a stronger case for Marvelman / Miracleman being the poster child for reinventing comicbook supers as grimdark edgelords but hugely missing out on Moores talent, although its obviously less well known.

Sure, but I think Watchmen, just by virtue of being more popular and (I'm assuming) more widely read, is probably more to "blame."

Disagree, I think most of them got the message perfectly. It's just that they were a) trying to expand on it in ways it wasn't meant to be expanded on and b) were simply not good enough to execute on it well.

Okay, but...it's still those other writers' faults, then. :lol Watchmen did not end with an edict saying all comic writers must now look to Watchmen for inspiration.

It's like saying Nolan is to blame for all the bad grim/gritty/grounded reboots in Hollywood now just because he made Batman Begins. BB was a good movie on its own right; that others tried their hand at doing their own BB-esque reboot and, by and large, fell way short is not Nolan's fault.

 

[KOMANI]

I think they did that storyline in the regular Flash book, with Future Barry fucking things up. Again.

But that doesn't really seem to be the point here.

edit: From the IGN review:



Can we all agree to stop with the "another DC reboot" hot takes?

No, I won't agree to it. I don't care either way, but for the last 30 years, DC doesn't know how to handle their history. Multiverse, no multiverse,else worlds, zero hour, multiverse, no multiverse, multiverse... They can call it a rebirth but it's a reset.
They never plan for this, it's all been short term planning.

 

[Coffee Dog]

The worst part is that it isnt really Wally. He's pretty much Kid Flash, without Linda, without the kids, all so we can fill time by replaying those greatest hits over and over again.

DC needs other gimmicks besides rolling back the status quo and releasing worse versions of stories that were already told well.

 

[KOMANI]

I always liked how Morrison dealt with the idea of "different Jokers" in Batman #663 by showing how deeply he's capable of reinventing himself in his own twisted mind. Hope this 3 Jokers thing doesn't erase that.

Also Morrison did a good job on making 76 years of Batman continuity fit. This undoes all of that.

 

[Savitar]

I think, speaking broadly, that the current Batgirl team would LOVE to be able to dispose of TKJ, as evidenced by their strenuous efforts to separate Babs from it and, really, the entire rest of her connections to the Batfamily (other than Luke and Dick). I also don't think that that's really what they tried to do, for the very simple reason that I don't think Editorial would let them do it in the first place. So any in-issue retcon was ambiguous at best.

I see your view point but I still think mine is more true than not. Some times writers get away from editorial until editorial basically tells them no at the last moment, we've seen DC do it before to others. Be it to poor Dwayne McDuffie constantly or even the writer on Legion when Johns wanted to do his thing and that over wrote everyone else.

Basically:

 

[exmachina64]

Can we get a spread of the Watchmen meeting their Charlton Comics counterparts?

Yes, we need this!

At this rate, they'd be better off referencing this crossover in Star Trek films than whatever they're currently trying to do.

When Johns starts messing something up, I'm always reminded of that fan letter he wrote to then Superboy writer in the 90s about Superboy being a Luthor/Kent clone, being wrong, and then years later he goes on to write Teen titans making his fanfiction real

I can't wait till someone does that to him

Is this real life?

Three Jokers?

We finally have a villain for BatmanBatmanBatman

Three Bruce Wayne Batman in continuity would be great.

 

[Poodlestrike]

No, I won't agree to it. I don't care either way, but for the last 30 years, DC doesn't know how to handle their history. Multiverse, no multiverse,else worlds, zero hour, multiverse, no multiverse, multiverse... They can call it a rebirth but it's a reset.
They never plan for this, it's all been short term planning.

It's not a reset, though. You can talk about how DC fucked it up in the past and certainly not be wrong, but if there's no canon erasure, it's clearly not a reset.

I dont get how it isnt a reboot. They reboted the new 52 so that the old universe is now canon again.

Everything in the New 52 continuity still happened. Nothing was undone. The old universe is "canon" in the sense that it still happened, but it's strictly an alternate timeline/universe now.

 

[KOMANI]

My fear is that DC is diluting their fan base with these constant changes, and leaving only the extreme DC fans to pick up their books.

To be clear, I honestly don't care what a comic company does because it all can change with the next event, but play the hand your dealt with. Stop resetting the game because fans will not want to keep playing with you.

 

[Savitar]

My fear is that DC is diluting their fan base with these constant changes, and leaving only the extreme DC fans to pick up their books.

To be clear, I honestly don't care what a comic company does because it all can change with the next event, but play the hand your dealt with. Stop resetting the game because fans will not want to keep playing with you.

I've been worried about this for some time myself. After Zero Hour it really needed to end, that was twice and there was always issues still present. Making big changes to try and fix everything never seems to work out and with how writers are they keep changing things anyways so it can easily cause a new mess regardless even if they are trying to fix something.

For the longest time I thought Marvel was doing it right, basically they would change things in universe by simply doing something where someone lied or had been tricked and that was more or less it. They didn't create any big universe reboot, not until recently anyways and even that wasn't really needed.

 

[KOMANI]

It's not a reset, though. You can talk about how DC fucked it up in the past and certainly not be wrong, but if there's no canon erasure, it's clearly not a reset.

That I agree with, but I'm saying its a creative-editorial reset. The universes still exist, I get that, but now they're going back to their old girlfriend that they told their friends that they killed.
You've got Earth 2 (the original DCU not the new 52)
You've got Earth 1 (the one that's been fucked with too many times)
And you have New 52.
You can put out all three universes because there are still 3 generations of comic fans picking up books. My point is that DC were in a place where they can have their cake and eat it (just like Marvel's Ultimate Universe), and instead they threw out their cake.

 

[Poodlestrike]

My fear is that DC is diluting their fan base with these constant changes, and leaving only the extreme DC fans to pick up their books.

To be clear, I honestly don't care what a comic company does because it all can change with the next event, but play the hand your dealt with. Stop resetting the game because fans will not want to keep playing with you.

But, again, they aren't resetting the game. That is not happening.

Can someone confirm that I'm posting in English?

That I agree with, but I'm saying its a creative-editorial reset. The universes still exist, I get that, but now they're going back to their old girlfriend that they told their friends that they killed.
You've got Earth 2 (the original DCU not the new 52)
You've got Earth 1 (the one that's been fucked with too many times)
And you have New 52.
You can put out all three universes because there are still 3 generations of comic fans picking up books. My point is that DC were in a place where they can have their cake and eat it (just like Marvel's Ultimate Universe), and instead they threw out their cake.

I... what?

They're not going back to anything. The pre-New 52 universe exists, the timeline exists, things happened, but things were changed. Them acknowledging the retcon in-universe and lamenting its effects isn't the same as bringing back the universe wholesale.

Also, Earth-2 isn't the original DCU?

 

[Savitar]

But, again, they aren't resetting the game. That is not happening.

Can someone confirm that I'm posting in English?

Que?

 

[KOMANI]

I've been worried about this for some time myself. After Zero Hour it really needed to end, that was twice and there was always issues still present. Making big changes to try and fix everything never seems to work out and with how writers are they keep changing things anyways so it can easily cause a new mess regardless even if they are trying to fix something.

For the longest time I thought Marvel was doing it right, basically they would change things in universe by simply doing something where someone lied or had been tricked and that was more or less it. They didn't create any big universe reboot, not until recently anyways and even that wasn't really needed.

Well marvel is a younger company, and I though their recent secret wars was a good idea. How it was executed is a different story cause I didn't finish reading it.
What happens to the new 52? Does it become a footnote or an asterix in the history of DC?
It's just bad leadership. When they ushered Levitz out, company took a creative nose dive.

 

[mreddie]

Watchmen part of the main DC universe?

And yet, Marvel kinda already did that...30 years ago

 

[Apt101]

I am going to now read this and whatever book Wally ends up in.

 

[KOMANI]

But, again, they aren't resetting the game. That is not happening.

Can someone confirm that I'm posting in English?



I... what?

They're not going back to anything. The pre-New 52 universe exists, the timeline exists, things happened, but things were changed. Them acknowledging the retcon in-universe and lamenting its effects isn't the same as bringing back the universe wholesale.

Also, Earth-2 isn't the original DCU?

Relax Poodle, don't start insulting me because we have a difference of opinions. You're choosing to believe what you're being spoon fed. I'm just not buying it.
Earth 2 is the classic DCU. What don't you understand from that?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth-Two

 

[bob_arctor]

Watchmen part of the main DC universe?

And yet, Marvel kinda already did that...30 years ago

Love me some SS. But so what?

 

[mreddie]

Love me some SS. But so what?

What DC is doing is like having Scary Movie but with the Scream cast.

 

[Korosenai]

Nah, one of the reviews says that it's clear they were referencing the historical variations of Jokers. It seems to be basically Golden Age, Killing Joke and modern Joker, considering the designs.

There was also an old promo image about this identity reveal which matches that.




As far as Batman not noticing the different Jokers, it fits with End Game from Snyder's run. When Joker's face wasn't Joker-fied Batman couldn't recognize him. So, it's very likely that he couldn't differentiate the face of three different people with the Joker toxin either.


The Joker's identity reveal seems to be the "there are actually three Jokers" reveal.

But I thought in the picture for the preview of it that Batman actually saw the Jokers name. So this is really the reveal instead? Will we even find out what name Batman saw?

 

[8bit]

(Though I appreciate the GL/ST comic actually has decent art unlike the Doctor Who one *brrr*).

Yeah, the "I think I've got Glaucoma" artwork for that is astonishing.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Three Jokers?

We finally have a villain for BatmanBatmanBatman

I SLEEP ON MARS!

 

[Stronty]

My fear is that DC is diluting their fan base with these constant changes, and leaving only the extreme DC fans to pick up their books.

Agreed, DC lost me a long time ago, Marvel too.

 

[KOMANI]

Agreed, DC lost me a long time ago, Marvel too.

That's why people are jumping to valiant, who are building their superhero universe from infancy.

 

[Screaming Meat]

 

[Poodlestrike]

Relax Poodle, don't start insulting me because we have a difference of opinions. You're choosing to believe what you're being spoon fed. I'm just not buying it.
Earth 2 is the classic DCU. What don't you understand from that?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth-Two

I'm not insulting you, I'm genuinely confused how I'm not getting through, lol. I'm just going off the reviews saying in (what looks like) clear English that no, nothing is getting reset. The old universe is not replacing the new one. That's not being spoonfed, it's just not assuming that major publications are straight up lying, lol.

And Earth 2 hasn't been the classic DCU for a while now, it's very much its own thing.

 

[Toki767]

3 Jokers makes me think they watched Gotham Season 2 and thought they pulled it off well.

 

[Sanjuro]

 

[Coffee Dog]

It's a reboot. A year ago the pre52 universe was gone and not a part of the past of the new52. Now it is, and elements of it are being refolded into the post new 52 universe.

They dont have to drag everyone back to origin story mode for it to be a reboot. (Even though they did this too with white wally)

 

[Father_Brain]

How far behind schedule is Darkseid War running, again? I forget.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Somewhere out there, Alan Moore has begun to twitch uncontrollably.

Did he already had a public meltdown? Please say yes.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Did he already had a public meltdown? Please say yes.

I may do on his behalf. The fuck are they thinking?

 

[El Topo]

Did he already had a public meltdown? Please say yes.

There should be a reality show where they follow Alan Moore 24/7. Or heck, a weekly show where he has to review comics. A great writer and it is a shame that Hollywood did not do his works justice.

 

[Poodlestrike]

It's a reboot. A year ago the pre52 universe was gone and not a part of the past of the new52. Now it is, and elements of it are being refolded into the post new 52 universe.

They dont have to drag everyone back to origin story mode for it to be a reboot. (Even though they did this too with white wally)

New 52 didn't kick off with origin stories either (mostly). It was a reboot because it abandoned the old canon. This does not abandon the N52 canon, ergo, not a reboot.

How far behind schedule is Darkseid War running, again? I forget.

Couple of months, I think.

 

[mreddie]

There should be a reality show where they follow Alan Moore 24/7. Or heck, a weekly show where he has to review comics.

Doesn't he already say he apologizes for Killing Joke?

 

[GAMEPROFF]

I may do on his behalf. The fuck are they thinking?

I am just aftaid that they taint the legacy further more. But the original book is not going away, so thats maybe stupid.

There should be a reality show where they follow Alan Moore 24/7. Or heck, a weekly show where he has to review comics.

Dude is insane. Always so funny and cringeworthy to read the shit he says

 

[Coffee Dog]

New 52 didn't kick off with origin stories either (mostly). It was a reboot because it abandoned the old canon. This does not abandon the N52 canon, ergo, not a reboot.

but this does abandon the old canon. The old canon was the pre52 was buried. Now the pre52 is integrated into the past, present and future of the new52 universe and they're going to sweep new52 elements like black wally under the rug.