Ass of Can Whooping
Gold Member
That it's crony as fuck and no way enforceable even in corpy america
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Matt Booty on moonlighting while under the XBox umbrella...
- Thread starter Men_in_Boxes
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That it's crony as fuck and no way enforceable even in corpy america
These employees likely have been provided an employer protection agreement either separately or as part of their new employment contract and are concerned about the wide-ranging generic verbiage in the agreement. Such agreements make it appear that the corporation owns everything they develop while under employment for the company regardless of what they create or where they create it.
It gives the perception that privately developed ideas are also owned by the company as a result of their hiring and is the sort of maximalist interpretation dipshit corporations will try to pursue regardless of the law.
This is not the case and the determination and degree of ownership varies by jurisdiction. Not even making something using company assets is cut and dry plus they are also subject to be reined in when abused just like non-compete agreements.
The video demonstrates the difference between a corporate culture in tune (or more in tune) with its employees being taken over by one that is not.
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Miyazaki’s Slave
Gold Member
Have been on all sides of the conversation: Company getting pitched to, internal team pitching to project team, external team pitching to publisher.
Internal Pitch is owned by the company. You are presenting a product for the company to greenlight, you are an employee, you are on company time. Product belongs to company. If you decided to work (on your own time) on a pitch for the company that employees you, then you bring that material into your company to do the actual pitch...yeah it's their property. *There are exceptions to every rule...but make sure those exceptions are in place before hand and in writing.
External Pitch (this one is tricky) - You are coming to a publisher to pitch a game that your team has wholly created (or have the plans to do so) then you should have a few things in place.
1) A non disclosure agreement between your company/team and the publisher.
2) A notice that you will be presenting a product/concept that your company has developed on their own with the intent to secure a publishing partnership.
I have seen people pitch game ideas to a publisher with NONE of that in place and the results can be a disaster.
Also as a side note; don't roll into a pitch meeting where you plan to pitch a game to a publisher using their IP and expect to have any amount of bargaining power.
Internal Pitch is owned by the company. You are presenting a product for the company to greenlight, you are an employee, you are on company time. Product belongs to company. If you decided to work (on your own time) on a pitch for the company that employees you, then you bring that material into your company to do the actual pitch...yeah it's their property. *There are exceptions to every rule...but make sure those exceptions are in place before hand and in writing.
External Pitch (this one is tricky) - You are coming to a publisher to pitch a game that your team has wholly created (or have the plans to do so) then you should have a few things in place.
1) A non disclosure agreement between your company/team and the publisher.
2) A notice that you will be presenting a product/concept that your company has developed on their own with the intent to secure a publishing partnership.
I have seen people pitch game ideas to a publisher with NONE of that in place and the results can be a disaster.
Also as a side note; don't roll into a pitch meeting where you plan to pitch a game to a publisher using their IP and expect to have any amount of bargaining power.
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nosoynadie22
Gold Member
Mibu no ookami
Member
It's funny how people want to be generally shitty and trust me I don't think Matt Booty has been effective at this job, but this is just an example of a clash of cultures and that can happen when you have M&A.
Double Fine sold itself to Microsoft and in doing so made a lot of money in the process presumably. That comes at a cost though.
You can see both sides and that's where Booty's response is actually pretty genuine and on-point. If you want to work on your own games, you can and should probably quit and create a start-up. This isn't the response people wanted to hear and thus Booty is the villain instantly. They want to be able to have their cake and eat it too.
That culture might work for Double Fine, but yes Microsoft is a corporation, and if that was your corporate policy, it would end up biting you in the butt pretty quickly.
People get access to tools and pretty confidential things, so you can't have people actively working in competition with you and you're paying to fund that competition.
Double Fine sold itself to Microsoft and in doing so made a lot of money in the process presumably. That comes at a cost though.
You can see both sides and that's where Booty's response is actually pretty genuine and on-point. If you want to work on your own games, you can and should probably quit and create a start-up. This isn't the response people wanted to hear and thus Booty is the villain instantly. They want to be able to have their cake and eat it too.
That culture might work for Double Fine, but yes Microsoft is a corporation, and if that was your corporate policy, it would end up biting you in the butt pretty quickly.
People get access to tools and pretty confidential things, so you can't have people actively working in competition with you and you're paying to fund that competition.
Tbh, these people who their entire career about gaming without the hustle of thinking about making this stuff happen are just lucky to be around and earn permanent acceptance from the community, people may envy her, be jealous of her, but she's clearly doesn't do it for the money.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Depends what you mean by idea. Is the nemesis system an idea? The crazy taxi arrows? You have to have a way to practically implement the idea to make it patentable, but it doesn't have to physically exist or actually be implemented.
Can you patent an idea?
Under U.S. law, you cannot patent an idea. Understanding how the law differentiates ideas from inventions is a great way to learn some of the core tenants of patent law.www.legalzoom.com
Absolute moron
Also, if you come up with it on your own time, but is in your field of work then the company can still assert ownership (in the US at least).
Ass of Can Whooping
Gold Member
Yes the nemesis system is an idea, you can patent your implementation of said idea (not the idea itself) but it actually has to exist first. Not just within a written draft
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Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Studio fosters creativity and motivates employees with unique culture.
Post acquisition: you will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.
Btw, those saying "it's just business as usual", "it's just how things are done" and so on fail to understand that it is not, they can be done differently and they are being done.
And yes, I am aware that things are probably done in the same way in Sony and Nintendo offices in America.
Post acquisition: you will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.
Btw, those saying "it's just business as usual", "it's just how things are done" and so on fail to understand that it is not, they can be done differently and they are being done.
And yes, I am aware that things are probably done in the same way in Sony and Nintendo offices in America.
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bender
What time is it?
Look no further than Double Fine pre and post acquisition to see this is correct. The ideas belonging to the individual until the company dedicates resources to it isn't far fetched. I'd be curious to see the turnover of the staff post acquisition.
Banjo64
cumsessed
Those poor people. Look at their faces. They know what Microsoft are. Booty is a cunt.
Killer8
Member
Sometimes death is preferable to being a zombie kept artificially alive with no agency.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
The patent for the nemesis system was applied for in 2016 and Shadow of War came out in 2017 so....
Angry_Megalodon
Member
If you work for a company and use its resources on a potential project, it belongs to the company if they are interested. However, If the idea is officially rejected I understand it's fair game that it could be picked up by someone else.
Ass of Can Whooping
Gold Member
And the system would have existed in some form before the game itself came out.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Do stuff on company time and dime, and it's company property.
If anyone wants ownership, do it when you get home after dinner on your personal PC without using company programs or laptop. What low brow employees want is to use company resources to do shit and then own it personally.
That's not how business works. In fact, something as simple like phone numbers can be company property. Lets say you have a personal number, get hired, and then tell IT keep it simple and just use the personal number for the company cellphone. Guess what? That number is now company property. If you want to keep your number, then just keep it as is - personal phone number.
Its no different than patents. The company owns it. My dad has some made while he worked there. His name is on it, but the company owns it. When he left the company he cant just take it back and try to sell it to another company.
If anyone wants ownership, do it when you get home after dinner on your personal PC without using company programs or laptop. What low brow employees want is to use company resources to do shit and then own it personally.
That's not how business works. In fact, something as simple like phone numbers can be company property. Lets say you have a personal number, get hired, and then tell IT keep it simple and just use the personal number for the company cellphone. Guess what? That number is now company property. If you want to keep your number, then just keep it as is - personal phone number.
Its no different than patents. The company owns it. My dad has some made while he worked there. His name is on it, but the company owns it. When he left the company he cant just take it back and try to sell it to another company.
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mitch1971
Member
America isn't 'everywhere'.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Easy to say from the bleachers. Those people have families to care for.
Quasicat
Member
My district started this a couple of years ago, and the union supported it.
Anything I create on a school issued computer becomes the property of the district no matter when or where the work is done. This became a problem when teachers started selling the curriculum they created on Teachers Pay Teachers.
Then, a couple of years ago, the state said that any device used for work, including personal devices, can be confiscated by the school/law enforcement. This makes it difficult when we have teachers going to Washington DC for the class trip and they can’t communicate through text about what’s going on.
Anything I create on a school issued computer becomes the property of the district no matter when or where the work is done. This became a problem when teachers started selling the curriculum they created on Teachers Pay Teachers.
Then, a couple of years ago, the state said that any device used for work, including personal devices, can be confiscated by the school/law enforcement. This makes it difficult when we have teachers going to Washington DC for the class trip and they can’t communicate through text about what’s going on.
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Thick Thighs Save Lives
Gold Member
Killer8
Member
They'll live. If Microsoft doesn't already can the studio in the next couple of years, i'd suspect many are already on the lookout for other work in the industry. No one wants to work in such a suffocating atmosphere.
The nicest thing you could say about Tim's decision to sell was that it gave the staff a window of time to look for other work. But the studio, as we knew it, was basically gone the day he signed along the dotted line.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
That's irrelevant.
All the people working at Double Fine would rather work at Double Fine than close the studio.
simpatico
Member
After the meeting, Microsoft installed a building-wide auto shower. With the press of a button, every door and window is locked. Soapy water rushes out of all the sprinkler heads for 4 minutes straight. After that, a 4 minute rinse. Floor board heaters kick on after that to begin a drying cycle. MS execs insisted this work be done so future visits could be made to the studio. All in all, a multimillion dollar project, but if you want creative types on the payroll, it's the cost of doing business.
Mibu no ookami
Member
God of War used to top out at 5 million copies... The new God of War games hit 20 million copies sold. Both sides of the franchise are critically acclaimed.
Outside of Gran Turismo, sony barely had games that sold more than 5 million copies.
This is the rub on AA gaming, especially when it comes close to AAA budgets. Did Psychonauts 2 sell well? No, it didn't.
We face the same problem with a lot of movies. We used to see 4 quadrant movies and your movie had to be that if it wanted a certain budget. But now not only do you have to be 4 quadrant, you have to be international.
This often means simplifying a lot of things so that audiences without the cultural experience can still understand.
Summer camp is a great example. A lot of people would have no idea what that even means. It's the same with jokes. If I make a Nixon joke, a 14 year old kid in Hungary probably isn't going to know who that is.
At the same time, if you try to make a movie for everyone or a game for that matter you'll more often than not find that you made something for no one.
The Marvel movies were one of the rare times where you could make a somewhat complicated storyline have international appeal, but you did that by making sure most of the individual movies were simple and had themes that were pretty universal.
semiconscious
Member
why the lack of imagination in games today? might the inability to freely throw ideas around have anything to do with it?...
rm082e
Member
From what I could find:
But listening to that video, it sounded like Tim just said they work on their ideas on their own time, on their own equipment at home, and then they bring it into pitch it. Maybe the AF process changed over the years? If that's the case, I would expect the company would not own those ideas because the work done had nothing to do with Double Fine. I would expect in that situation, Double Fine would have people sign something clarifying the ownership of that pitch now belongs to the company, but only for pitches they decide to take on and turn into products?
If I were on that team and had any interest in making an indie game, I would immediately switch to keeping any decent ideas for myself. I'd work on them in my own time, on my personal computer, at home and not speak a word about it to anyone at the office. I would only bring the least interesting ideas to the company. Assuming the idea is good enough to turn into a game I wanted to release, I would wait until there's some kind of breaking point to quit.
- In most instances an employer owns nothing you create on your own time, using your own equipment.
- An employer may own rights if you create something on your own time, using your own equipment, but the creation is directly related to the employer's business.
- An employer may own rights if you create something on your own time, using the employer's equipment.
- An employer owns everything you create on the employer's time using the employer's equipment.
But listening to that video, it sounded like Tim just said they work on their ideas on their own time, on their own equipment at home, and then they bring it into pitch it. Maybe the AF process changed over the years? If that's the case, I would expect the company would not own those ideas because the work done had nothing to do with Double Fine. I would expect in that situation, Double Fine would have people sign something clarifying the ownership of that pitch now belongs to the company, but only for pitches they decide to take on and turn into products?
If I were on that team and had any interest in making an indie game, I would immediately switch to keeping any decent ideas for myself. I'd work on them in my own time, on my personal computer, at home and not speak a word about it to anyone at the office. I would only bring the least interesting ideas to the company. Assuming the idea is good enough to turn into a game I wanted to release, I would wait until there's some kind of breaking point to quit.
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Lol let me guess, you are from the EU? Isn't that the little grassy region near Asia with BIG GOVERNMENT and no liberty? Well guess what my friend, here in America we specialize in a little thing called FREEDOM.
Like the freedom from the government stopping my employer from patenting the idea that pops in my head at 9 PM while on the couch watching Netflix. You probably wouldn't even be able to handle that much autonomy Karl Marx.
*This post is property of Raytheon. Any use without prior authorization is subject to fines of up to $100,000 and up to 10 years in prison.*
saintjules
Member
Cyberpunkd
Member
First thing - Tim Schafer, I don't know why you are sporting a hobo beard. It doesn't make you look sexy, it doesn't make you look and sound like a leader. You have resposibility to your employees to stand up to a dipshit. You either do that or you quit.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Unless I can't count he was there for 15 years? He's been with Microsoft for 14 years now.
Are all Twitter users so fucking stupid?
Welcome to late stage capitalism.
So - one of the industry tech giants(US company, obviously) has/had specific clauses in the employment-contracts that went something like this:
1) You aren't allowed to work on anything on your own time if it has any relation to your day-job.
1.b) In some special cases, you may be allowed to ask for permission for 1, that may be rejected on manager's discretion.
2) If you DO any work on your own time, that has any relation to your job - the company owns all of it.
And yes - tens of thousands of people signed these terms (or are still signing them, if they hadn't been changed).
Thing is though - amerocentric view is still incredibly prevalent in this industry (and most online discourse). Well not just 'this' industry - if you look at how many of US giants interact with EU employment laws - it's pretty dire.
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rm082e
Member
Yeah if it's that clear, then there's no wiggle-room there. I was with a company that got bought 20 years ago and this topic came up. We had a lot of college age people working there, so it was a big topic. The language someone found on the new company's website was much less specific and much more lawyerspeak, but it sounded very unenforceable.
Can't blame people for agreeing to it. If they know they aren't going to go make their own content that conflicts with their day job, there's no point in taking some moral protest stand. Not being unemployed is a good thing.
Besides, you could always work on your thing in your own time and if it gets to a point where you know you've got something, then quit and go work in an unrelated field for a few months while you finish your creative work. That's in-line with what Booty said in the video.
Magic Carpet
Member
I remember in the Doc the Ninja Fortnite they did was most fun part of the doc. I assume they never did another one after the Aquisition. Does anyone have any more info on Doublefine after the Doc? They went dark after the release of Pyschonauts 2.
PaintTinJr
Member
There was an interesting lawsuit for SW in the UK IIRC where the guy that Lucas paid to produce the Storm Trooper prop helmets for the film, years later went to sell the moulds for the props and it was found by courts after legal challenges by Lucas, that the engineer still legally owned the moulds of those prop helmets, with the right to sell them on.
So UK law very much leaves everything to be tested where an explicit employment contract doesn't define what is covered. Even if someone uses incidentals of the company - which the company could seek reimbursement of, I guess if substantial, or pettiness - the genesis of idea that hasn't been realised probably would need the employee to be employed as a game designer, or be derivative of the company's products to be assured of the company winning in the UK. Even if the person was a character artist, unless their game pitch characters were related to their work for the company, I doubt the company could automatically assume ownership of those either.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Listening to the video, it's pretty clear to me.
"Anything within DF's walls". Company owns it. But people got to be smart enough to not take that literally as to within a MS brick building. It just means on company time and dime even if it's done at home after dinner using company resources
"Directly competes". Company owns it. I dont think MS or Matt Booty cares if someone is spending time dreaming about running a lawn mowing service on the side, as long as it has nothing to do with MS, Xbox or gaming.
The part at the end where the fat guy with the beard asks about ownership of ideas done on their own and rejected. Who owns it. It sounded like a grey area, but Booty did say they'll honour it. And before that if its that big of an idea you can always break away and do a start up on your own controlling it.
End of the day, just do your own ideas on your own time and PC.
Have any of you ever sat in a new products or prototype meeting? I have. It's a round table of marketing and product managers who want to brainstorm ideas, and get feedback on current R&D projects. Sometimes a shitty prototype is passed around the room.
If anyone has ideas on new products or changes to existing products, you dont own them. The company does. Lets say Jim Bob has a brand new idea and it's gets written on the white board as a possible new product. It gets shot down later on. Guess what? You dont own it. If the company ends up making it 5 years later after you left you cant say "Well, that was my idea years ago so I'm suing for royalty back pay". Too bad. It's not your idea anymore. If you want ownership, Jim Bob should had said nothing to Mary the Marketing Manager and built it himself in his garage.
What the employees want is a perfect situation where they can float ideas with complete ownership trying to get a gauge on success, while using company PCs and fancy programs. And some of them do it during work hours too.
"Anything within DF's walls". Company owns it. But people got to be smart enough to not take that literally as to within a MS brick building. It just means on company time and dime even if it's done at home after dinner using company resources
"Directly competes". Company owns it. I dont think MS or Matt Booty cares if someone is spending time dreaming about running a lawn mowing service on the side, as long as it has nothing to do with MS, Xbox or gaming.
The part at the end where the fat guy with the beard asks about ownership of ideas done on their own and rejected. Who owns it. It sounded like a grey area, but Booty did say they'll honour it. And before that if its that big of an idea you can always break away and do a start up on your own controlling it.
End of the day, just do your own ideas on your own time and PC.
Have any of you ever sat in a new products or prototype meeting? I have. It's a round table of marketing and product managers who want to brainstorm ideas, and get feedback on current R&D projects. Sometimes a shitty prototype is passed around the room.
If anyone has ideas on new products or changes to existing products, you dont own them. The company does. Lets say Jim Bob has a brand new idea and it's gets written on the white board as a possible new product. It gets shot down later on. Guess what? You dont own it. If the company ends up making it 5 years later after you left you cant say "Well, that was my idea years ago so I'm suing for royalty back pay". Too bad. It's not your idea anymore. If you want ownership, Jim Bob should had said nothing to Mary the Marketing Manager and built it himself in his garage.
What the employees want is a perfect situation where they can float ideas with complete ownership trying to get a gauge on success, while using company PCs and fancy programs. And some of them do it during work hours too.
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ProtoByte
Member
I'm not even mildly partial to Xbox, but to be fair, a lot of that messaging was blind faith and hyperbole on the part of their social media drones/the games media.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Unless every employee is a co-shareholder of DF it is the management / Tim Schafer that sold the company for profit. You can see how incredibly uncomfortable he is during the meeting - this is someone that wants to do a good thing, but at the same time made decisions impacting other people. The brain is trying to rationalize it.
A.Romero
Member
Not the walls but what about the time, the training, the contacts...
Of course all of that is owned by the company and most likely it's in the contract.
They can quit and then put all of their thought experiments forward but if they are still employed and they pitch them they are company's property.
Pedro Motta
Member
Jesus Christ, Microsoft really has no taste.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
It doesn't matter of Psychonauts 1 and 2 got 100/100 scores from every game site on Earth.
Hardly any gamers are going to want to play those kiddie looking games. and it shows because both games dont sell lots of copies.
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It seems to pretty closely mirror what Matt said in the OP video too (minus the asking for permission part).
I do wonder how much any of this has actually been tested in court. I know the anti-compete clauses are basically non-starter in most of the developed world no matter what companies say about them - and tying 'work you do on your off time' to 'competing with' has a very similar ring to it...
I mean yea. TBF - I think most people would be less fussy about those terms if it wasn't for 1.b - that part about 'go ask for permission so we can reject it and/or make sure we own it' really had a bad taste to it. But that's one that I suspect would have a really hard time passing in EU courts too - company asserting decisions about what you are allowed to do on your own time seems pretty out there.
Granted it's multifaceted - as the idea of using proprietary IP knowledge to build something on your own time also has all kinds of issues... but ah well, as Matt puts it - it's a messy boundary...
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Ass of Can Whooping
Gold Member
They aren't. I don't care what bullshit they add to the contract. It's not enforceable.
But it's America so it doesn't need to be enforceable. They'll just find another reason to sack you anyway
ChorizoPicozo
Member
and that is part of the issue. Influencers, media have some kind of responsabilty to inform their audience. but of course we all know they are a bunch of clowns.
ManaByte
Gold Member
Yes
Paltheos
Member
lmao at the stares between the two women at 1:57 when Matt says the company might want to revisit rejected ideas later down the road to make them into a game
There's some disconnect between some of the responses I've seen here and on the content of the video. What I think most people agree with is that if you make something on the company dime that it's their property. The point brought up in the video is, "Some of our employees have been making things on their own time, pitching them to the company, and they've been rejected. Do they still own those ideas?" And Booty's like, "Eh, I think we should own those too," which is preposterous. Individual ideas or, more saliently, ideas brought up as a result of professional development, should be owned by their creators unless company resources are directly factored into their creation.
If I'm, say, working on a new game and tasked with drawing up concept art for enemies and environments and 80% of my work gets rejected, tough nuggets - all that art belongs to the company because it was produced as a direct result of my job function for the purpose of furthering company goals.
If I collaborate with a co-worker, a professional colleague, in our own time on a new game idea and we come up with a story, art, etc. and we then pitch it to the company we both work for at the time and they reject it, that remains our idea. Or, at the very least, it really, really should. Working for the company may have given me the opportunity to connect with that co-worker and a means to easily get a foot in the door to the bosses, but these aren't a product of my job, just a result of utilizing my professional connections to advance my goals. I'm deeply afraid there's someone reading this thinking, "Are you suggesting you never talked with that co-worker on the clock about this?" and I'd only ask this person to take a moment to reflect before replying.
There's some disconnect between some of the responses I've seen here and on the content of the video. What I think most people agree with is that if you make something on the company dime that it's their property. The point brought up in the video is, "Some of our employees have been making things on their own time, pitching them to the company, and they've been rejected. Do they still own those ideas?" And Booty's like, "Eh, I think we should own those too," which is preposterous. Individual ideas or, more saliently, ideas brought up as a result of professional development, should be owned by their creators unless company resources are directly factored into their creation.
If I'm, say, working on a new game and tasked with drawing up concept art for enemies and environments and 80% of my work gets rejected, tough nuggets - all that art belongs to the company because it was produced as a direct result of my job function for the purpose of furthering company goals.
If I collaborate with a co-worker, a professional colleague, in our own time on a new game idea and we come up with a story, art, etc. and we then pitch it to the company we both work for at the time and they reject it, that remains our idea. Or, at the very least, it really, really should. Working for the company may have given me the opportunity to connect with that co-worker and a means to easily get a foot in the door to the bosses, but these aren't a product of my job, just a result of utilizing my professional connections to advance my goals. I'm deeply afraid there's someone reading this thinking, "Are you suggesting you never talked with that co-worker on the clock about this?" and I'd only ask this person to take a moment to reflect before replying.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Agreed, you said no once. Fuck off.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
And yet the patent doesn't reference the game and has no code in it. It's just the description of the practical application of an idea.
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