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Matt Taibbi: Stop Whining About 'False Balance' (It's Your Fault In The First Place)

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Armaros

Member
Maybe the link in that section provides a hint:

Slow and plodding FOIA doesn't explain misleading headlines like 'New Clinton Emails uncovered by the FBI', when they were old emails already reviewed by the FBI, sometimes months ago.

And it has happened more then once across multiple news organizations to be a genuine mistake.
 

Pusherman

Member
I'm pretty weirded out by the praise for Matt Taibbi. From what I've read he and his buddy Mark Ames seem like pretty repugnant human beings. I mean, just look at these quotes from their autobiographical book about their time at Russian tabloid the eXile:

You're always trying to force Masha and Sveta under the table to give you blow jobs. It's not funny. They don't think it's funny," Kara complained. "But... it is funny," Matt [Taibbi] said. We have been pretty rough on our girls. We’d ask our Russian staff to flash their asses or breasts for us. We’d tell them that if they wanted to keep their jobs, they’d have to perform unprotected anal sex with us. Nearly every day, we asked our female staff if they approved of anal sex. That was a fixation of ours. “Can I fuck you in the ass? Huh? I mean, without a rubber? Is that okay?” It was all part of the fun.

or

Mark Ames' perspective said:
Katya sat on my lap and told me she had some exciting news: she was pregnant, and I was the father!
I panicked. Children are my worst nightmare–worse than worst…
“No, Katya, you don’t understand. I cannot have a child. I do not like children. I hate them. They disgust me, physically.”
“But I can’t have an abortion,” she pleaded. “I was told that if I did, I’d never be able to have a child.”
I knew she was bluffing, so I countered with the RU-486 pill. I offered to fly to France, pick one up, and bring it back for her. “It’s totally safe,” I cheerily offered.
“I can’t do that,” she said. ‘I can’t kill our child.”
Right then, I stared at Katya with a look–I’m not sure how it appeared to her, but in my mind, I was starting to contemplate two courses of action: murder, or AWOL.
“What will you do, kill me?” she said, laughing nervously.
“Maybe, yeah,” I replied. “I’ll throw you off my balcony. I’ll make it look like an accident.”
She started to cry, but I was relentless. I told her that if she had the child, she would be killing me, so it was an act of self-defense.
And if I didn’t kill her, then I would flee Moscow and she’d never find me….I was relentless. I attacked her the Russian way: I wore her down for hours during the KGB interrogation-style…
At 5:30 the next morning, Katya, acting the martyr, quietly slipped out of my apartment, made a beeline to the abortion clinic, and sucked the little fucker out.

Here's where I got those quotes from:
http://fredrikdeboer.com/2014/10/30/the-exile-guys-have-a-lot-to-answer-for/
and
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/4s1tdh/matt_taibbi_and_mark_ames_are_serial_rapists/

The misogyny is also mentioned in this review of the book: http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/beast-in-the-east/Content?oid=902762
 

benjipwns

Banned
He was also a heroin addict back then. And he continues to be a vile shitbag to all kinds of people in his own writing. That doesn't discredit or debunk everything he writes or reports for all time.

Even the worst criminals can have a message worth considering on its own merits.
 
Maybe the link in that section provides a hint:

man, focusing on this bit
So what's the answer? I'm not going to pretend to have a detailed policy to offer, but in general terms I think it's this: less transparency, but faster, more effective transparency. Even journalists might buy this trade. I believe that cabinet officers need to have a certain amount of space to have policy discussions without fear of every word they say becoming public. For this reason, FOIA should be tightened in some ways. At the same time, the biggest problem with FOIA is that it's abysmally slow and clunky. You have to word your requests just right. You have to pay fees that sometimes make no sense. And then you have to wait forever, and then maybe appeal, and then wait some more, because compliance departments are woefully underfunded and undermanned.

i wish i could work with the kind of idiot that believes that the bolded will change if foia gets tightened.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Well, if you reduce the amount of documents they have to process by 95% because they're no longer accessible by citizens...
 
Very good points. The media coverage is simply not having the full desired effect although it hurts Donald often. Nothing can be done for people who dont agree with his views except have faith that tens of millions of others vote the way they want.
 

benjipwns

Banned
then you suddenly have a very good reason to reduce the size of the compliance department.
NO YOU CAN'T YOU WILL REGRET THIS um...er I mean, to uh, better serve, the American people, we have instituted a rule requiring at minimum of 12 checks by different individuals to ensure the documents are complete and meet the standards of the request along with department guidelines on exclusions, also, a minimum of 25 additional staff will be needed to establish department guidelines in each department or agency's FOIA office. This will require a budget increase of $19 billion yearly, saving the taxpayers $29 billion monthly through efficiency standards based on internal research.

Those efficiency standards will be determined by a new office of efficiency standards to be appointed by the Secretary and budgeted appropriately so as to meet new and established guidelines.
 

dave is ok

aztek is ok
I'm pretty weirded out by the praise for Matt Taibbi. From what I've read he and his buddy Mark Ames seem like pretty repugnant human beings. I mean, just look at these quotes from their autobiographical book about their time at Russian tabloid the eXile:
Look at how awful Matt Taibbi is. Here's a 20 year old story someone he worked with wrote and I'll quote a part that doesn't even involve him.
 
-The proportion of coverage given to different scandals seems off. No-one is seriously angry that Clinton's email scandal was covered in the abstract. People are frustrated that we seem to spend 50% of our time talking about Trump's many scandals, and 50% of our time talking about Clinton's emails.

If, hypothetically, Trump had 8 scandals and Clinton had 2 of "equivalent magnitude" there's no reason to spend equal time on each candidate unless you need to preserve the horse race. It diminishes the magnitude of Trump's scandals to give them disproportionately less time. Trump's campaign has been actively gish-galloping for months now and everyone has fallen for it

Why does it "seem" this way? Which media do you consume? If there were, hypothetically, a study that demonstrated there were substantially more media stories about Trump's problems than about Clinton's, would you believe or accept it?

The gist of the piece, and the article comments Benji posted, is that a lot of partisans are intentionally ignoring the constant, year-long stream of negative press Trump has received, because it's soothing to believe that the media is the reason Clinton's poll numbers are underwhelming or the race is as close as it is. His point, which is reasonable, is that the public just doesn't care.
 

benjipwns

Banned
I actually worked in/with state FOIA. I'd say least half the offices I engaged with automatically rejected the first request for not being specific enough, and you could submit the same exact request as a response and then they'd finally look at it, before rejecting it for not being specific enough, but this time at least telling you how it wasn't specific enough. Generally because the offices didn't actually know what was and wasn't able to be FOIA'd for their department and they were outsourcing it to the requester to look it up for them lol

In fairness, the guidelines are pretty fucking incoherent and only barely resemble what the departments actually produce in terms of documentation. Making it borderline impossible to truly be specific enough. I can't imagine what the federal internal ones look like. State must be amazing, just getting Hillary's e-mails was some pretty impressive work. That one guy who tried to get e-mails out of the EPA only to find out they were using fake employees who were winning ethics awards to send e-mails under so nobody could FOIA them (since nobody knew they existed) spent years and never got close to what he originally wanted. Which was just like some meetings minutes or something that they stonewalled to hell and back before accidentally sending him the e-mails of the non-existent employees.

At least they finally cut the fees for submitting required duplicates and shit in Michigan. Made the responses have to be clearer too I think. One good thing Snyder did. And it's how they got some of those Flint documents, so he probably regrets it. The system works.
 

EmSeta

Member
Great and level headed article as always by Taibbi.

Trump is clearly the greater of evils no matter how you slice it, and I'm vehemently against him.

But purposefully ignoring Clinton stories out of fear of the consequences just isn't the right thing to do. That would be a well intentioned step onto a dark, dangerous path.
 

Gotchaye

Member
The gist of the piece, and the article comments Benji posted, is that a lot of partisans are intentionally ignoring the constant, year-long stream of negative press Trump has received, because it's soothing to believe that the media is the reason Clinton's poll numbers are underwhelming or the race is as close as it is. His point, which is reasonable, is that the public just doesn't care.

This misses the point of the criticism. Everybody sees that the media covers Trump's weekly atrocities. The idea is that this is basically balanced out by just as many stories about Clinton's wrongdoing, except that the stories about Clinton's wrongdoing lean heavily towards rehashing older stories about Clinton's wrongdoing. So while people are aware that Trump does bad stuff weekly, they also get this impression that Clinton's done a few really bad things that make her just about as bad or untrustworthy or whatever as he is.

It's a hard thing to definitively show. But clearly lots of people are misinformed. In polling, the two score pretty close on things like honesty and transparency and what-have-you, and that's just kind of crazy. Taibbi isn't even really arguing that this isn't happening.

I'm not very impressed with the argument here. First, Taibbi's initial take that people complaining about false balance are being snobbish is just kind of silly in light of how he then goes on to complain at length about how it's dumb audiences who are responsible for the media being bad. But also surely it's obvious that the concern is less about stupid people devouring as much media coverage as they can but still needing things put in context and more about people who aren't paying close attention forming judgments about politics on the basis of vague impressions about how CNN's coverage feels. And so I think the hyperventilating like "Whether it's keeping "Fuck the Police" off the airwaves or news of the collectivist famine out of Pravda, the idea is the same: People can't handle stuff." is just dumb - it's not that people can't handle stuff but that very few people want to spend time handling stuff, and so they choose not to. This is Taibbi's own argument about why the media sucks! Instead people often apply reasonable-seeming heuristics to figure out what's going on - "the truth is in the middle", etc. They see that there's a whole lot of negative coverage of Clinton and a whole lot of negative coverage of Trump, with the media itself not making any attempt to contextualize all of this, and pretty reasonably conclude that the take-home here is that both are shitty candidates.

What Taibbi's pointing at - how the media is shaped by what people want to see - is a real thing, but it goes both ways. Yeah, we get much more coverage of terrorist attacks in the US and Europe than elsewhere because the media figures that that's what people care about, but of course people then end up caring a lot less about terrorist attacks elsewhere because they just don't hear about them very much.

I think The Technomancer's right that Taibbi's just totally ignoring the problem of information saturation. People are not turning to the media to collect contextless facts. People tune in to understand, and they draw conclusions from how things are presented just as much as from what is presented. They're trusting that the media is making responsible editorial decisions about what to talk about and how. They don't feel like turning on the news is like hitting the button to show a random Wikipedia page. Maybe this is part of their dumbness that Taibbi is snobbishly complaining about, but even if audience dumbness is an important cause of media dumbness it seems hard to let the media off the hook entirely unless the argument is that they don't have any obligation to do a good job.

Also this is pretty silly: "There's not much to say about this debate apart from the fact that it's phony and absurd and that the people shrieking for "balance" are almost always at heart censors who are really concerned with keeping a view of the world with which they disagree out of the news. "

Mostly the people being complained at agree with the people doing the complaining - they all think that if you take a good look at this race you'll see that Clinton is a much less shitty candidate than Trump. The complaints are not about how the people at The New York Times actually do think that Clinton and Trump's scandals are comparably bad and are presenting their view. The complaints are about how the media is actually being dishonest or incompetent in presenting this "fair" picture of the race that they don't themselves accept - if they are failing to give their viewers an accurate understanding of the world, as they themselves understand it, then they are failing to do their job by their own lights. But, sure, if wanting things contextualized in the way that the people reporting think they are properly contextualized is asking for censorship, then you can cash out basically any objection to any reporting as someone being "really concerned with keeping a view of the world with which they disagree out of the news."
 

Jonm1010

Banned
I think the article hits the nail on the head with regards to the regressiveness that has been creeping into the left with their treatment of the media.

As a whole the Left is still championing many worthy causes IMO but the underlying foundation is rotting and deteriorating in a lot of ways and this is reflective in how liberals are starting to treat the media. Doing so in a way that undermines and spits in the face of very foundational tenants that most modern liberal thought tends to hold true.

A growing number are turning into the very thing we once claimed to despise and disagree with. Looking like the sort of cynical, manipulation seeking, un-democratic threats to the freedom of the press that the left used to rally behind in attacking places like FoxNews.

This passage hits pretty hard IMO and I see it's presence here a lot and with growing popularity and strength:

There's not much to say about this debate apart from the fact that it's phony and absurd and that the people shrieking for "balance" are almost always at heart censors who are really concerned with keeping a view of the world with which they disagree out of the news.

There are two basic ideas of how the press is supposed to operate. One is that the system works best when reporters are free, independent and annoying, giving the public as much information as possible, so that people may sort things out for themselves.

The other is that information is inherently dangerous, and the public is too stupid to be trusted with too much of it.
Throughout history there has always been a plurality of people who will believe this.

Whether it's keeping "Fuck the Police" off the airwaves or news of the collectivist famine out of Pravda, the idea is the same: People can't handle stuff.

The giveaway in this latest "false balance" debate is the language. There are people wailing about a "weaponized" media that just this once needs to be leashed a bit, given the circumstances. This is classic "information is dangerous" rhetoric.

In the moments after 9/11 when the Left and Libertarians found common cause against actions like the Patriot Act, the notion of making exceptions to liberty temporarily were rightfully challenged as being naive and likely insincere. That the precedent would be set and temporary would have lasting permanence. That argument was right. But now you have swaths of the Left, 15 years later, borrowing the rhetoric and false promises of a return to normalcy after the threat has subsided with regards to the media. A threat so dire I might point out that it seems to happen every 4 years with every new presidential nominee. Thats not to say Trump isn't objectively more dangerous, but instead to say why would this fear stop with Trump if it hasn't prior and we can't tell the future?

Just this time lets abandon the principles built up over centuries of journalism in the name of the greater common good of the moment to stop Trump. Suspend freedom of the press through mob coercion in order to protect it.

All of this because liberals are now buying into the notion in large numbers that people can't be trusted to make good decisions even if they have good info. The problem is not just that cable news is shitty, its that they need to be weaponized(to borrow his term) to be shitty exclusively in one direction. Which of course is setting aside the core questions of how true this charge toward the media from the left actually holds weight broadly speaking or whether the underlying assumptions, that fly in the face of modern liberal thought, are true. And if so, is this actually the right path to addressing that?
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I'm pretty weirded out by the praise for Matt Taibbi. From what I've read he and his buddy Mark Ames seem like pretty repugnant human beings. I mean, just look at these quotes from their autobiographical book about their time at Russian tabloid the eXile:

or

Here's where I got those quotes from:
http://fredrikdeboer.com/2014/10/30/...to-answer-for/
and
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/co...erial_rapists/

The misogyny is also mentioned in this review of the book: http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago...ent?oid=902762
What the fuck?!! Holy shit...
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Huh, surprised Taibbi wrote this. I thought he was one of the most outspoken members of the so-called "false balance priesthood".
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I think The Technomancer's right that Taibbi's just totally ignoring the problem of information saturation. People are not turning to the media to collect contextless facts. People tune in to understand, and they draw conclusions from how things are presented just as much as from what is presented. They're trusting that the media is making responsible editorial decisions about what to talk about and how. They don't feel like turning on the news is like hitting the button to show a random Wikipedia page. Maybe this is part of their dumbness that Taibbi is snobbishly complaining about, but even if audience dumbness is an important cause of media dumbness it seems hard to let the media off the hook entirely unless the argument is that they don't have any obligation to do a good job.
Basically. Taking this train of thought further basically leads us to "well the media is just doing what makes them the best profit and that's the ethical course of action", and Taibbi doesn't strike me as the type to actually make that argument, which makes the whole thing even more confusing.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Can someone define for me "the media" when they talk about this great imbalance and bias?

In a world so driven by active consumption, passive news influence is seemingly continually waining.

I mean who are these boogiemen that comprise "the media" when "the media" seems increasingly dependent on the person and a case by case basis.

The language sounds eerily conspiratorial and superficial in the way you might hear members on the Hannity board speak of the liberal media in order to generalize it to the point where you can just make it out to be a caricature to easily swat at in partisan ways depending on what a given moment calls for.

Cable news is shit(with some exceptions), I get that. Network news is not much better. But there are still a lot of great news organizations out there. Many doing really good work. And even if you don't like many of them you still have things like the BBC giving great coverage from abroad that is widely available here.

So really I am asking, how real is this problem many regularly speak of and who actually embodies it? And even if it is an issue, is changing the habits of those guilty parties you identify going to actually have any discernible effect in an era where most of what people consume in terms of news is through active and not passive consumption? Through culled Facebook feeds, friend networks, message boards, news channels, and media.
 

Malvolio

Member
The issue if balance only comes into play if you stick to one source. Reading news in a balanced manner is up to the reader not the writer. Media has no obligation to be fair or balanced or even truthful. Their obligation is to the shareholders. Welcome to America.
 

Gotchaye

Member
Can someone define for me "the media" when they talk about this great imbalance and bias?

In a world so driven by active consumption, passive news influence is seemingly continually waining.

I mean who are these boogiemen that comprise "the media" when "the media" seems increasingly dependent on the person and a case by case basis.

The language sounds eerily conspiratorial and superficial in the way you might hear members on the Hannity board speak of the liberal media in order to generalize it to the point where you can just make it out to be a caricature to easily swat at in partisan ways depending on what a given moment calls for.

Cable news is shit(with some exceptions), I get that. Network news is not much better. But there are still a lot of great news organizations out there. Many doing really good work. And even if you don't like many of them you still have things like the BBC giving great coverage from abroad that is widely available here.

So really I am asking, how real is this problem many regularly speak of and who actually embodies it? And even if it is an issue, is changing the habits of those guilty parties you identify going to actually have any discernible effect in an era where most of what people consume in terms of news is through active and not passive consumption? Through culled Facebook feeds, friend networks, message boards, news channels, and media.

I mean, yes, the complaints are generally about the coverage provided by the big cable and network news shows. Like I said, the concern here is about what very casual consumers of political news are getting. These extend somewhat to many outlets that understand themselves to be providing neutral, non-partisan reporting - big papers like The New York Times, for example. It's not about media that understands itself as coming from a particular point of view. Nobody's applying this kind of "false balance" argument to Fox or to some of MSNBC's evening shows - it's believed that they're making a conscious editorial decision in how their story selection and tone influences people's understanding. People will certainly argue that Fox isn't really "fair and balanced", but the idea here is pretty different - with Fox the concern is that they're intentionally deceptive and happy to be so.

And so also we're not talking about people who are going to have hugely political facebook feeds. There are lots of them out there, and actually they're some of the most reachable - people who follow political news really closely are, I'd bet, much more likely to have already made up their mind pretty firmly about who they're voting for and whether they're voting. I couldn't give you a number, but, like, everyone agrees that network news is terrible and yet tens of millions of people are watching.
 
I would like to point out one thing.

The New York Times faced a ton of criticism about unbalanced coverage for two things that Taibbi and Spayd's editorials both missed.

1. The first was the replacement of one recap of the Commander-in-Chief forum with a version that omitted a number of salient facts about Donald Trump's answers at the forum. That was later rectified.

2. The extensive coverage of the Clinton Foundation news (good!), paired with the ignoring of the Trump Foundation news after it was posted by the Washington Post. The Post had the first iteration of its story up on September 1. The New York Times did not cover the story until September 13. I urge you to read the NYT version and the Washington Post version back to back.

So, the question in both cases is "why"? This isn't false equivalence, it's the complete omission of reporting. The best answer I have is Glenn Greenwald's contention that not every major outlet needs to cover every story, because the others will pick up the slack. Neither editorial explains it and I even tweeted this specific point at Taibbi with no real answer.
 

entremet

Member
Look at how awful Matt Taibbi is. Here's a 20 year old story someone he worked with wrote and I'll quote a part that doesn't even involve him.
It's a classic character assasination post attempt without addressing the points of the article.

These tactics are getting a bit old honestly.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
Look at how awful Matt Taibbi is. Here's a 20 year old story someone he worked with wrote and I'll quote a part that doesn't even involve him.

If the Right has one thing 'right' about the Left, it's that they can't stray too far away from the identity politics crutch.
 
He's right. We should stop complaining about the media and the failing NYT. Now.

You're not really going to sell papers by writing about Trump using his charity to pay his businesses' legal costs. That's not headline grabbing.
 

Crisco

Banned
The essence of that debate is whether or not it's appropriate to write negative things about Hillary Clinton when there's a possibility that Donald Trump might become president. Or, rather, we may say negative things about Clinton, but only if we always drape reporting in plenty of context about the worse-ness of Trump, or something.

Nope, the essence of this debate is whether it's ok to treat every fake scandal about Hillary Clinton with the same vigor as factual criticisms about Donald Trump. The answer is no. It's rare that a writer get's both the question and the answer wrong but this hack managed to do both.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
I mean, yes, the complaints are generally about the coverage provided by the big cable and network news shows. Like I said, the concern here is about what very casual consumers of political news are getting. These extend somewhat to many outlets that understand themselves to be providing neutral, non-partisan reporting - big papers like The New York Times, for example. It's not about media that understands itself as coming from a particular point of view. Nobody's applying this kind of "false balance" argument to Fox or to some of MSNBC's evening shows - it's believed that they're making a conscious editorial decision in how their story selection and tone influences people's understanding. People will certainly argue that Fox isn't really "fair and balanced", but the idea here is pretty different - with Fox the concern is that they're intentionally deceptive and happy to be so.

And so also we're not talking about people who are going to have hugely political facebook feeds. There are lots of them out there, and actually they're some of the most reachable - people who follow political news really closely are, I'd bet, much more likely to have already made up their mind pretty firmly about who they're voting for and whether they're voting. I couldn't give you a number, but, like, everyone agrees that network news is terrible and yet tens of millions of people are watching.

Very casual political consumers can be pretty hard to nail down, at least it has for me, even harder would be to then determine patterns of their particular consumption behavior. That's why I was kinda begging the question. One out of personal curiosity and secondly, to question how sure in our assumptions we can be? That and to break this whole growing trend of broad brushing the news media which just serves little purpose IMO when the news media is not a unified or monolithic entity.

There are certainly a lot of surveys that dance around consumption habits and do show us that TV is still a major force, but in terms of consumption for instance, that famed .img around here of trusted networks has a whole study attached to it. Newer ones recently. In it it shows that CNN and local news only combine for 36% as the main source of news for respondents with "mixed views." From there it becomes fragmented amongst different outlets, aggregates like Yahoo and Google making up 16% combined.

Beyond that though my concern is more with what the OP article actually spoke about and that is the issue of how some liberals are seeking to address the grievances they see in the news media with very un-liberal ideas and rationales. I personally see validity in his premise, while others don't. Though some seem to just be arguing a different premise or attacking him speciously. If i have one criticism it is the framing of the article as an "us vs. them." Which just opens him up for easy dismissal and falls into a similar trap of broad brushing and losing sight of context. I don't think this is an issue that is large enough and uniform enough to treat it like a nearly singular thing. Something your criticism sort of shows where it is not so much advocating indirect censorship or making appeals to tailor the news to specifically target Trump, but as a desire toward better journalistic standards from places like CNN.
 
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