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[big_erk]

Maybe I'm just an old man but this whole "mature" argument always makes me laugh. The vast majority of Nintendo's games are created for gamer of all ages, not just children. That is a very delicate balancing act. It is much more difficult to create something that can be enjoyed by people of all ages than it is to make something that targets a specific group.

If you have to have your maturity validated by the kinds of games you play, then you are not a mature individual.

I can understand that people may not like a certain genre or type of game, and that is fine and to be expected. But to lump all Nintendo games into one category does a disservice to you as a gamer and to the game in question.

The kiddy label is used by some to dismiss all of Nintendo's games out of hand. It is ironic that the majority of people applying the label are barely old enough to buy an M rated game for themselves.

What the hell have they done to FE?

Made it one of the most critically acclaimed games of the year.

 

[Mael]

Maybe I'm just an old man but this whole "mature" argument always makes me laugh. The vast majority of Nintendo's games are created for gamer of all ages, not just children. That is a very delicate balancing act. It is much more difficult to create something that can be enjoyed by people of all ages than it is to make something that targets a specific group.

If you have to have your maturity validated by the kinds of games you play, then you are not a mature individual.

I can understand that people may not like a certain genre or type of game, and that is fine and to be expected. But to lump all Nintendo games into one category does a disservice to you as a gamer and to the game in question.

The kiddy label is used by some to dismiss all of Nintendo's games out of hand. It is ironic that the majority of people applying the label are barely old enough to buy an M rated game for themselves.



Made it one of the most critically acclaimed games of the year.

Reminds me of this one event.
During the n64 lifespan we had yoshi story and goldeneye on it and we were receiving a couple with 2 young children (something like 4 or 5yos).
We were asked to show them the games we had and entertain them that way.
Since they were so young we thought that yoshi story would be more than enough for them.
They didn't liked it AT ALL, they complained that it was a kiddy game for babies.
At 4, the game was already to childish for them
We were asked to put them something else and we only had goldeneye to show them so after seeing if that was ok with the parents we showed them.
They loved it, like REALLY loved it.
They loved how they were headshotting enemies left and right and how it was so gore.
They were very excited by the game.

Again 2 kids at 4/5 yo!

Mature means fuckall.

 

[Otakumegane]

What the hell have they done to FE?

Waifued it up. But that's the part I enjoyed

The bigger problem was map design and general unbalancedness for a strategy game. Not to say there weren't improvements to music and supports, the pair system is interesting for a while but then starts to break a few things. Still a pretty great game.

 

[boiled goose]

I still can't believe they gave an overpriced port of Arkham City such prominence on their presentation floor that E3. I remember back when Reggie said he'd do his best to get GTA, what happened to that?

I think something happened over the Wii and DS years that they really became detached on how to market games to gamers. They were really successful at marketing to non traditional gamers, and they probably changed staff and what not to be able to achieve that.

I also have this theory that there is something about how bonus work or something along those lines at NOA that makes them act the way they do. They only want big hits, screw smaller games. This might come down from Japan as there was that article about Iwata believing in the one system selling game philosophy.

 

[ReaperXL7]

My issue has never been that Nintendo focuses on making games for all ages, as a matter of fact that would be a large reason that I would buy a Wii-U to play with my daughter.

My issues with Nintendo is that the only first party games I enjoy from Nintendo are Link, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem but they regulate Pokemon to the handheld ghetto so thats a no go for me anymore most of the time.

The last Nintendo console I owned was an SNES and that mainly because all of the franchises that brought me to Nintendo in the first place (Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, all of the great JRPGs, etc) moved on to Playstation. So from that point on I was PC/Sony/Sega. Now im mainly Playstation because I lack the drive to build a PC.

Nintendo can make what they like because they make good games, im just not willing to buy their consoles "only" for those games.

 

[Bizazedo]

For me, it's not about kiddy games, etc. If I had a Wii U, I'd have gotten 3D World simply due to the hype. I am easily swayed .

It's about the genre's. As an example, I honestly can't remember the last time I played a platformer or wanted to play a platformer. Occasionally I'll enjoy watching one played well (Siglemic speed run attempts), but the genre itself has just grown unappealing to me.

I could make up a half-dozen reasons as to why, but they'd be just that, made up. I honestly don't really know why they don't draw me today.

What I do know, though, is that the type of games *I* want to play are generally made by third parties.

 

[zruben]

For me, it's not about kiddy games, etc. If I had a Wii U, I'd have gotten 3D World simply due to the hype. I am easily swayed .

It's about the genre's. As an example, I honestly can't remember the last time I played a platformer or wanted to play a platformer. Occasionally I'll enjoy watching one played well (Siglemic speed run attempts), but the genre itself has just grown unappealing to me.

I could make up a half-dozen reasons as to why, but they'd be just that, made up. I honestly don't really know why they don't draw me today.

What I do know, though, is that the type of games *I* want to play are generally made by third parties.

Well, the WiiU is still young, and Nintendo really explored basically every genre last gen, so I don't think it's a problem of "genre".

Plataformers: Mario, DKC; Wario
Action Adventure: Zelda, Zangeki (and at some extents, Pandora's Tower)
RPGs: Glory of Heracles, Xenoblade, Last Story.
sRPGs: Fire Emblem, Battalion Wars, Advance Wars
Shooters: Disaster, Metroids, Sin and Punishment
Puzzles: Layton, Picross, Brain Age, etc.
Sports: Mario's spinoffs, Punch Out
RTS: Pikmin
Horror: Fatal Frame
Visual Novels: Hotel Dusk, Another R.
Miscellaneous: Wii series, Fortune Street

and they are doing a good job so far with the 3DS.

the only thing they lacked last gen was mainstream third party titles. You said that that's your thing, and that's ok.... I just don't think Nintendo lacks genre variety.

 

[onilink88]

Waifued it up. But that's the part I enjoyed

The bigger problem was map design and general unbalancedness for a strategy game. Not to say there weren't improvements to music and supports, the pair system is interesting for a while but then starts to break a few things. Still a pretty great game.

I think people need to go back and compare some of the maps in earlier games with the ones in Awakening. The discrepancy in quality isn't as large as some think (if present at all, actually). However, if you were to say that the game needed more objectives in those maps than simply defeat the enemy commander/route the enemy, I would agree. As for the pairing mechanics damaging the difficulty of the game, well, in the vast majority of FEs, the minute you gain the ability to promote your units, the games become markedly easier. And in that respect, I don't really feel the need to stratify how much one game is easier than the other, when, in the end, they all become cakewalks. But anyways, none of this is relevant, as that poster was referring to the tone of the game/narrative, and he's wrong to say that it's any less grim or mature than past FEs. Despite all its quirky characters, Awakening can be very mature. Take the crescendo of the first act, for instance.

Spoiler

Emmeryn's sacrifice makes her one of the best martyrs I've come across in a game. I'm still reeling from the fact that something so poignant found its way into FE.

 

[spookyfish]

It's still not a first party title though.

>sigh<

Bayo 2 is a first party game. Not third party, not second party. Nintendo is paying for development of the whole game, not just publishing.

 

[bishopcruz]

Well, this usually applies to young teens that need to demonstrate how much they have grown, so the more violence the better and in fact only games with high ERSB ratings are considered.

Once they mature they realize that playing bloody games doesn't make a kid an adult.

I understand comments like this, and I hate them all the same. It's just as reductive calling games targeted at adults immature as it is calling a game like Mario immature. It's ridiculous just how defensive people get over this stuff. People want what they want and like what they like, no matter what age they are. It's about being willing to love Mario AND Last of Us, if both of them appeal to you, or about being ok with liking neither of them but respecting those who do.

Blood and guts don't automatically make something "mature" whatever that means, but their inclusion doesn't make something immature either. Witcher 2 has massive amounts of blood, sex, and cursing, yet it also deals with a fairly deep and interesting fantasy world, which feels more alive and real due to its inclusion. Yet you hear some in this thread talk and it must be the most immature game of all time. I guarantee you it was not targeted at kids. Hardcore European RPGs skew a bit older than high school kids.

I mentioned before how Nintendo of America especially seemed to revel in keeping Nintendo's childish image. It's not that games like Hotel Dusk and Xenoblade don't exist. They clearly do, but those games are treated as an afterthought, by NoA especially. I'm sure Nintendo picked up Monolith to bolster their ability to provide games outside of EAD and company's comfort zone to their Japanese audience, but they have done nothing to aid themselves in moving past that in the US.

 

[IsntChrisL]

Nintendo publishes mature-themed games, they just don't seem to do it in America anymore- which pisses me off. Why the hell didn't Disaster come out in the US, for example?

Nintendo let's finished, translated games sit on the shelf while other territories are experiencing software droughts. It's boneheaded beyond measure.

 

[Sami+]

The Pixar comparison doesn't make sense to me at all, honestly. It isn't nearly that cut and dry of a comparison.

Do you even understand why Pixar is (or was, I suppose) as monumentally respected in the movie industry as they are? They craft stories that appeal to all ages, with enough whimsy to draw in children's attention, and enough deeper themes and ideas to engage the adult mind. This is very clear in all of their acclaimed films.

For instance - the Incredibles was a movie I absolutely loved as a kid. It was bright and colorful, had a fun script with plenty of jokes, and lots of exciting, bombastic action. For adults? The movie is about a man struggling to cope with sacrificing his passion for the good of his family. The greatest defining trait of his personality is something he is forced to keep hidden for years on end, and his relationship with his family is strained as a result. It also has a systematic series of murders as one of the film's main plot points, and also covers the internal conflict between conformity and individuality.

The Incredibles is not the most mature film ever made, no, but there are indeed mature themes brought to light for adults to enjoy. Ultimately, what separates it from a "mature" movie like Memento is not a blatant lack of one of the film medium's inherent traits, but simply the subject matter covered and the way in which it is presented. It's not "dumbed down", simplified, or weakened by it's appeal to kids - rather, it carefully crafts it's story in a way that it can be very clearly seen and understood by adults while still maintaining the basic traits children would like with its color, humor, and action.

Nintendo does not do this most of the time. There are exceptions, yes, such as Metroid, Mother, and Fire Emblem, but unfortunately those have not been prominent on consoles for a good few years (if ever), and that's what people (including myself) are asking for. Zelda has a very solid gameplay system, but why is it that I have to accept Nintendo's consistent omission of compelling narratives in almost all of their games? Why is it that Zelda is so seldom interesting in anything other than lure gameplay, when Dark Souls is far more engaging as a complete package? Why is it that the mainline Mario games nowadays always seem to be content excelling in nothing more than pure gameplay while completely foregoing every other aspect of the medium that other developers have been using for years? Even when I can get a well-written, engaging narrative about the exact same characters in the exact same world from the Mario RPGs?

When people ask for Nintendo to make their games more "mature", nobody is asking for tits, ass, and guns. When comparing Zelda to the likes of Shadow of the Colossus and Dark Souls, it's not fronting a desire to see more blood and violence, but merely a yearning to see a Zelda that engages us on a deeper level than just the gameplay, like those games.

Story, sound, presentation, and gameplay don't all have to be mutually exclusive. The mark of a great game is one that excels in all of these categories. At least to me.

 

[rjc571]

I understand comments like this, and I hate them all the same. It's just as reductive calling games targeted at adults immature as it is calling a game like Mario immature. It's ridiculous just how defensive people get over this stuff. People want what they want and like what they like, no matter what age they are. It's about being willing to love Mario AND Last of Us, if both of them appeal to you, or about being ok with liking neither of them but respecting those who do.

I'd just like to point out that what you refer to as "adult" games are in fact marketed at and played largely by children. Kids generally find the concept of genociding zombies while constantly swearing and acting out a hackneyed melodramatic storyline a lot more appealing than adults do. I'm not saying that games like this are immature in an attempt to disparage them, I just find the hypocrisy of the "kiddie = bad" mindset amusing.

When I choose whether I want to play a game, the demographic that enjoys playing the game does not enter into my consideration at all. I only care about how well the various components of the game are executed, and whether they appeal to ME.

 

[jgmo870]

What the hell have they done to FE?

It was geared more towards the pop anime designs and tropes with them trying to lighten up the plot with (their attempt at) humor whenever they could rather than the gameplay streamlining.

Spoiler

Emmeryn's sacrifice makes her one best martyrs I've come across in a game. I'm still reeling from the fact that something so poignant found its way into FE.

Spoiler

Which was lost when Chrom pronounced his undying love for and proposed to X character soon after the fact

. Awakening just didn't take itself as seriously as past entries.

 

[Gummb]

As has been mentioned, Mother 3 deals with themes that are probably far more mature than 95% of games out there - and in the actual sense of the word, not a "dark coat of paint" with gore, but thematic complexity and an adult sense of life and loss.

Many of Nintendo games are simply described as "inoffensive" in this regard, not immature or kiddy, but simply not at all concerned with either descriptor. Like a board game, Nintendo feels its titles are an extension of delivering simple gameplay and design ideals, and it is this purity of workmanship that leads them to be so well regarded in the industry. Some of this has fallen away recently, but they still remain ahead of the pack when they "hit" specifically because they eschew things like painful forced storylines or excess gore.

The ideal was always simply: what is the most convincing and concise way to convey a gameplay idea to the player? What is the path that is the -most- intuitive for a person to pick up and immediately grasp, but not necessarily "master" right away? The reason Nintendo's visual styles tend to be the way they are is because they have, through careful experimentation, arrived upon a pretty convincing formula to arrive at their goals, and part of that is a presentation which eliminates excess and "busyness" of visual data and presents clarified goals that almost anyone can understand at a glance. Why do you think so many of Nintendo's characters, enemies and even items have become iconic?

It is fair to "move on" from that type of style, but I also don't think it's about "maturity" like you suggest.

Came into this topic late, but I think this summarizes my feelings best.

Nintendo has visual designs that have a high utility. Unrealistic and simple are often also clear and intuitive, strangely.

 

[Melchiah]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, there aren't many games with mature themes on Nintendo platforms, apart from Mother perhaps. I don't necessarily mean violent or sexual content with the term mature, but emotional themes like Shadow of Memories, Silent Hill 2, Heavy Rain, Journey, The Last of Us, and Beyond: Two Souls have had. Those kind of themes are what interest me the most, and stay with me the longest.

 

[blu]

Echoes to this day remains one of the most dark and depression-inducing games I've played - I tried starting it a couple of times before I actually got to play it properly. There isn't a single "M-rated" moment in there. Another example - the most mature moment in RE4, another favorite of mine (and "M"-rated for gore and violence), is not any part of the game but the post-game credits, when taken in the context of the game you've just finished. Apparently maturity is in the eye of the beholder.

BTW, the c preprocessor is overrated.

 

[wmlk]

As a recent teen myself I can tell you that you its not as simple as that. It has nothing to do with showing how grown we are, its about GROWING UP.

WHERE do you even make the connection? Where do you suppose that a grown man or woman playing a video game that he or she enjoys will cause that person to be doing bad in life?

This isn't even about playing games that have a big fat "M" in front of them. What if the only game I enjoyed in the world was Pokémon for whatever reason, and instead I settled for something like Call of Duty and wallowed in misery because I disliked that game? Am I an "adult" now?

 

[Dueck]

I don't care how childish something looks as long as it's still fun and well made. My problem is just how similar some of the experiences can be. Ironically, I play all of Koei's stuff lol

The last 3D Mario-related game I was interested in before the newest was Double Dash, and 64 before it (this includes all spin offs). Meanwhile, I still go for every Zelda or Metroid title, because they seem to vary much more.

Despite the polarizing reaction, I think Hyrule Warriors will be my Wii U "killer app."

 

[Artorias]

I know this "too mature for kid stuff" happens to most people in their late teens/early twenties, I'm really happy it didn't seem to hit me. I'm pretty interested in gameplay, so I guess thats a big part of it.

 

[BFlood]

Define "mature", OP

 

[zeldablue]

I think when people say "mature" they mean emotional, relatable and sad, sappy stuff. Like what you would find in an award winning drama.

So think less R rated action movie and more R rated drama movie?

Nintendos overall lack of narrative and their easy difficulty can sometimes make "adults" feel as though they are experiencing a hollow kids game.

Sooo make more Mothers and Majora's Masks?

 

[dampflokfreund]

Uh, Nintendo did made many mature games. The problem is, that today they don't. Zelda OoT, MM, WW, TP and the older IPs like F-Zero and Metroid series are very mature but today they want to be so extremly kid friendly and protect them from everything, its disgusting..

 

[Artorias]

I think when people say "mature" they mean emotional, relatable and sad, sappy stuff. Like what you would find in an award winning drama.

So think less R rated action movie and more R rated drama movie?

Nintendos overall lack of narrative and their easy difficulty can sometimes make "adults" feel as though they are experiencing a hollow kids game.

Sooo make more Mothers and Majora's Masks?

That would be a comforting thought, but I'm pretty sure the majority of people who call for maturity in Nintendo games don't mean anything close to that.

 

[abstract alien]

The moment you try to force "maturity" is the moment it ceases to exist. Let the intelligence of the title and it's underlying tones be the thing that turns your gears. Or the imagery. You could always play Wind Waker and

Spoiler

spike a sword into someone's face and stand on it at the end.

 

[onilink88]

It was geared more towards the pop anime designs and tropes with them trying to lighten up the plot with (their attempt at) humor whenever they could rather than the gameplay streamlining.

Nonsense. Just because they injected a bit of humor (which all but dissipates by the final act) between all the dry politics doesn't mean it didn't take itself seriously. Awakening taking a slightly more archetypal approach to writing its characters did not overshadow any attempt at streamlining the game; the only legitimate criticism one could raise in that respect is against its horrendous item management system.

Spoiler

Which was lost when Chrom pronounced his undying love for and proposed to X character soon after the fact

. Awakening just didn't take itself as seriously as past entries.

Spoiler

Him getting married and producing an offspring soon after the event doesn't diminish the significance of her sacrifice (nor was it an attempt to). It was abrupt - the transition from one arc to another was on the jerky side, I admit - but that was due to the structure of the narrative and a bit of poor pacing.

 

[Number_6]

Calling games kiddy is immature. You're not looking for "mature" games, you're looking for rated M for mature games, as in meant for mature players (even though it's the tweens that really tend to seek that stuff out). The games themselves aren't "mature", and neither are the players who require tits and blood flying all over the place to feel secure in their gaming choice. Not saying that's you, TC. Just saying.

 

[fredrancour]

I still can't believe they gave an overpriced port of Arkham City such prominence on their presentation floor that E3. I remember back when Reggie said he'd do his best to get GTA, what happened to that?

I'd imagine they were unwilling to cut a large enough check to make it happen.

 

[Aeneas]

I don't want Nintendo to suddenly re imagine Mario or Zelda to make it more "mature". Maybe some new Nintendo team could make a new IP which explores more thought provoking themes, but if by mature we are talking include more blood and swearing no thanks. Its just not part of Nintendo's DNA (and usually not mature at all in my opinion). I don't find Nintendo games to be childish, I see them as universal, and the idea of "outgrowing" them to go shoot aliens in space doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[zeldablue]

That would be a comforting thought, but I'm pretty sure the majority of people who call for maturity in Nintendo games don't mean anything close to that.

Whether is drama or tits, I think one thing is obvious.

People who are older would like to see more depth from their games. It's okay to want more than fun and empowerment from your games.

Heck, I don't think Majoras Mask is "fun..."

I think it's painful and depressing, and despite that, I think it's one of the best games ever made.

 

[fredrancour]

Whether is drama or tits, I think one thing is obvious.

People who are older would like to see more depth from their games. It's okay to want more than fun and empowerment from your games.

Heck, I don't think Majoras Mask is "fun..."

I think it's painful and depressing, and despite that, I think it's one of the best games ever made.

Most of the "Nintendo is immature" criticisms are still demanding fun, though. It's just either asking for more challenging game mechanics or more "badass" varieties of fun. All the majora's masks-level plots in the world wouldn't make Nintendo get taken seriously unless people found Termina to be exciting and adventurous.

For example, Bioshock didn't take off because it dealt with fancy themes, it took off because rapture was cool as hell, and the game itself was well-made enough to be enjoyable.

 

[Owlowiscious]

Define "mature", OP

Immature.

 

[bishopcruz]

I'd just like to point out that what you refer to as "adult" games are in fact marketed at and played largely by children. Kids generally find the concept of genociding zombies while constantly swearing and acting out a hackneyed melodramatic storyline a lot more appealing than adults do. I'm not saying that games like this are immature in an attempt to disparage them, I just find the hypocrisy of the "kiddie = bad" mindset amusing.

When I choose whether I want to play a game, the demographic that enjoys playing the game does not enter into my consideration at all. I only care about how well the various components of the game are executed, and whether they appeal to ME.

What the hell did I point out as adult? And when are M rated games marketed towards children and where, the games I see marketed during shows on Cartoon Network are clearly not M rated games like the Last of Us or Call of Duty, those are advertised during sporting events or prime time television.

Do kids want to play and watch things that aren't made for them? Often yes, when I was a kid I wanted to see tits and blood in horror movies like Nightmare on Elm St. and Friday the 13th too. Sometimes I had to sneak it by my parents and sometimes they knew, usually when I was older. But that doesn't mean that the majority of those who consume M rated games are kids, quite the opposite.

First, the average age of a gamer is 30, most have been playing for 15 years. M rated games are about 9% of the titles released in 2012 are M rated. Now of the top 20 games released last year 8 of them were M rated, and of those 8 3 of them were military shooters, 3 were RPGs, one was Halo 4, and one was AC3. Considering that the 17 and under male demo is roughly 20% of the market, I find your assertion that they are the primary market for the story based cursing zombie genocider genre. And that's not even going into the massive disposable income discrepancies.

But no, keep insulting those who buy games targeted at adults by comparing them with children. You're stereotyping just as much as those who make fun of people who play Nintendo.

 

[jgmo870]

Nonsense. Just because they injected a bit of humor (which all but dissipates by the final act) between all the dry politics doesn't mean it didn't take itself seriously. Awakening taking a slightly more archetypal approach to writing its characters did not overshadow any attempt at streamlining the game; the only legitimate criticism one could raise in that respect is against its horrendous item management system.

...yeah it does. They wouldn't bother making lighthearted jokes if they thought it wouldn't lighten the tone (not like Awakening's tone was heavy to start with). That's the entire point of comic relief but their jokes weren't even funny. And I didn't say that their poor writing overshadowed the streamlining. The "it" in my last post was referring to my comment beforehand.

Spoiler

Him getting married and producing an offspring soon after the event doesn't diminish the significance of her sacrifice (nor was it an attempt to). It was abrupt - the transition from one arc to another was on the jerky side, I admit - but that was due to the structure of the narrative and a bit of poor pacing.

Spoiler

It was the awkwardness of the transition. They immediately went from killing a "mad king" who coerced Chrom's sister to commit suicide to Chrom expressing how happy he was. That's really poor writing and pacing.

 

[onilink88]

...yeah it does. They wouldn't bother making lighthearted jokes if they thought it wouldn't lighten the tone (not like Awakening's tone was heavy to start with). That's the entire point of comic relief but their jokes weren't even funny. And I didn't say that their poor writing overshadowed the streamlining. The "it" in my last post was referring to my comment beforehand.

Those moments of levity are few and far in between - barely even qualifying as fleeting - and do not color the overall tone of the game. There are various instances of lighthearted comedy in Full Metal Panic: The Second Raid, for example, but they don't change the fact that it is a very serious anime, do they? Anyways, this where I bow out, as there really isn't any merit to the issue you're trying to raise and continuing this this line of discussion would be a waste of my time. If you want to believe that employing an amount of comedic situations that you would have too many fingers on a single hand to account for manages to take away from the overall gravitas of the game, then so be it.