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[Coulomb_Barrier]

What this means for second-hand games is that Microsoft effectively controls how much they cost, because it controls the activation fee. Whether that fee will move up or down or diminish over time isn't clear. But it does mean second-hand games will probably be more expensive than they are now.

My source didn't know what Sony was up to but doubts the PlayStation maker will do the same thing, not because it's angelic but because it lacks the kind of pricey infrastructure something like this requires.

Let's hopes so.

 

[djplaeskool]

You really think that a company like MS would go this route if they were not sure it was legal? It's possible I guess, though unlikely.

Microsoft and EU regulations don't really have a great track record together.

 

[Subxero]

i really wish people were like you.
they're so damn near-sighted and only care about their situation and ability to play games, they've really forgetting anything else

I'm 36, and I grew up having to rent, borrow, and lend games. My Mom bought us what she could but if these systems were in play while I was growing up there would have been a ton of experiences I would have missed out on. Who knows it may have affected wether I was still a gamer today.

 

[GQman2121]

Blame footy GAF (And I'm even a Chelsea fan!!)

We've all got a little JT in us.

 

[-PXG-]

Preach it.

I don't get how any consumer can possibly support losing rights/privileges such as this. Totally does not make sense to me.

And, no, I don't care about the companies that make games, not enough that I'm willing to sacrifice my own rights anyway. If they cannot find a way to be profitable by selling a physical product without the need to infringe on re-selling that same product, then they need to go back to Business 101 and figure out how every other industry on Earth manages to get by without said infringements.

This.

Other industries and companies maintain profits and are able to coexist along with second hand markets.

People who are ok with this shit are out of their fucking minds.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

As a joke maybe. It'd be the same as giving a homeless man a button.

It's like giving a blind man a watch. At some point you're just mocking him.

 

[Principate]

Unfortunately I can confirm that this is the official company line on the X1.

Wait people are rioting over this good. There is hope left.

 

[90TilInfinity]

Used sales are legalised piracy, essentially. Not from the consumer's perspective (they certainly aren't guilty of anything), but from the end result.

I feel like there's a huge contradiction here on GAF. People are appalled by this, which is a move to cut out the used game problem that is killing off developers and even publishers, yet they want increasingly diverse and original entertainment.

This is just not the case at all. This narrative has gone on for so long because it seems feasible, but isn't actually based on hard facts.

I had to make a post about this yesterday. It includes a quote from EA's CFO:

http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58889465&postcount=843

Here's the quote from Gamestop's CEO:

“Both Sony and Microsoft have said games can be resold and that’s exactly what we anticipated,” said Bartel, who added that GameStop puts $1 billion in trade into the market and 70% of that money goes back into new game sales. “It’s a recognized way to make these games more affordable. All three new platforms understand that.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngau...-one-playstation-4-used-games-and-pre-orders/

 

[Yuterald]

To actually hear these people say " I'm ok with this" or " sounds fair" disgusts me.

Have you ever this generation EVER bought a used game from amazon or eBay? How about a swapmeet? Mom and pop game shop? Ever buy a game from your friend? Borrow a game from your friend? Sell a game to your friend? Let them borrow a game?

This will all be lost with xbone. And you sit there and say " I'm ok with this?"

You lost private rights to sell, rent, or just fucking give away a game to charity.

Fuck you guys Serioulsy.

A lot of truth up in this piece. Yeah, gotta agree wholeheartedly. This shit sounds so disgusting. Microsoft's got too much control over this whole thing. There's like zero sense of ownership with this box.

 

[toastyToast]

Wow at that update. MS are being greedy as shit

 

[RetroStu]

Or walk on stage and say "The system does not need to be connected to the internet EVER. There are no restrictions on what you can do with your games re: selling - now here's some awesome games. Enjoy"

Its such a simple sentence but a sentence that would probably win them this gen, literaly.
I wish it was as easy as that and they did come out and say exactly that.

 

[Linkhero1]

Most retail console games are developed by publishers' internal studios. Making a distinction between developers and publishers is pointless for the most part. Independent devs should make sure in their contract that they get a cut of the used games sales

That's what I meant. I wasn't talking about in-house developers.

 

[Phawx]

Or walk on stage and say "The system does not need to be connected to the internet EVER. There are no restrictions on what you can do with your games re: selling - now here's some awesome games. Enjoy"

The only thing I'd like to remind you is that the big publishers making big games want MS' system.

Doubly so because they get to look innocent during this whole thing.

 

[ec0ec0]

people look at that update 2...

 

[RetroStu]

Technically, wouldn't this practice be illegal under EU law?

 

[Duxxy3]

Its such a simple sentence but a sentence that would probably win them this gen, literaly.
I wish it was as easy as that and they did come out and say exactly that.

If that is their entire presentation I will pre-order a PS4 with any place that will take my money.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Eurogamer have a huge update about this

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-xbox-one-game-trade-ins-will-work-apparently
Update: You, the shopper, won't have to pay the activation fee for a used Xbox One game - the shop will. Therefore, the price you see on a second-hand Xbox One game in a shop is the price you'll pay to be able to play it.

That's what a high-ranking UK industry source explained to me this afternoon.

The reason there's all this confusion is because Microsoft hasn't decided what the activation fee will be yet. The £35 figure reported in the story below sounds too high - perhaps it includes the shop's sale price as well.

My source confirmed that part of that activation fee will go to a publisher and part to Microsoft.

What this means for second-hand games is that Microsoft effectively controls how much they cost, because it controls the activation fee. Whether that fee will move up or down or diminish over time isn't clear. But it does mean second-hand games will probably be more expensive than they are now.

My source didn't know what Sony was up to but doubts the PlayStation maker will do the same thing, not because it's angelic but because it lacks the kind of pricey infrastructure something like this requires.

That can only be good news.

But what does it mean for used games on PS4? Will they have some kind of anti used games system in place? Maybe something as simple as codes in boxes not unlike the online passes of today?

 

[onlyindreams]

To actually hear these people say " I'm ok with this" or " sounds fair" disgusts me.

Have you ever this generation EVER bought a used game from amazon or eBay? How about a swapmeet? Mom and pop game shop? Ever buy a game from your friend? Borrow a game from your friend? Sell a game to your friend? Let them borrow a game?

This will all be lost with xbone. And you sit there and say " I'm ok with this?"

You lost private rights to sell, rent, or just fucking give away a game to charity.

Fuck you guys Serioulsy.

yup

 

[twisteddeeds]

I'm 36, and I grew up having to rent, borrow, and lend games. My Mom bought us what she could but if these systems were in play while I was growing up there would have been a ton of experiences I would have missed out on. Who knows it may have affected wether I was still a gamer today.

Same here.. well 33.. I agree wholeheartedly

That can only be good news.

But what does it mean for used games on PS4? Will they have some kind of anti used games system in place? Maybe something as simple as codes in boxes not unlike the online passes of today?

I reckon Sony will have some from of on disc Drm.. but only to stop piracy, not restrict someone purchasing a used game and not being able to play it on their system without stumping up more cash

 

[KimonoNoNo]

About Sony's silence.

Jim Sterling said something interesting on the latest Podtoid, that execs at Sony could be not wanting to acknowledge that used games exist as a thing. It's like it dilutes the message, that they want people to buy their systems and their games.

They've said all along that if the publisher wants to set-up a system that blocks used games it is their choice, but they are not going to go out of their way to set it up for them.

 

[p3tran]

I expected more from you man!

agreed!

 

[RumblingRosco]

people look at that update 2...

The update that confirms I cannot sell my used games via a private transaction?

I find myself truly hoping that Sony does not follow this stupid set-up by Microsoft.

I also find myself truly wishing that Sony (if they don't go the XBone route) and Nintendo absolutely rise to the heavens this generation and squash MS right out of the console market. I can dream, I guess. I've never felt like a fanboy before, but all of a sudden, I feel as if I'm actively rooting against a company.

 

[lol51]

At this stage, why not just let you permanently deactivate a game in XBOX LIVE for points.

 

[NaviLink]

Just saw the Eurogamer update and wow, I'm dumbfounded by this.

Not only are they screwing the consummer in every possible way, they're also making second-hand shops pay part of the fee. Talk about revenge.

I can't understand why shops would agree to this. MS can't threaten them since they also are a significant new games outlet.

 

[the_prime_mover]

I am confused. If the retailer has to pay some activation fee and then only gets 10% of the resale value, then what possible price could they pay to the person trading the game in? Obviously there could be some margins where the game is in such demand that a company like Gamestop could sell a second hand game for $50, pay the license fee of ~$35 and still make a profit. However these margins would disappear within a few weeks or months as games lose mind-share and become cheaper to buy new (unless MS will also drop the license fee by the same percentage as the drop in the new game price). Thus on a game that is a few months or years old there would be no real way for a consumer to get any value out of a trade (as in this scenario I imagine the retailer would have no margin left to play with). I wonder how much revenue these retailers make off of reselling older games as opposed to the quick turnover. I also assume this will kill a lot of the consumer market where people flip games in order to buy the next big game thus leading to even more high budget failures and a much riskier market.

Will MS pursue a more aggressive price reduction strategy? Or will prices remain inflated for much longer than in the past (like prices of the On Demand games)? This will also make getting access to limited run niche games very difficult (unless everything will always be available on Live). I personally am not opposed to trading/selling games that I don't play anymore, and I like being able to get my hands on older, out of print games so this information is killing my interest in the system. I already have a PC for building my digital library (where I can be much more assured of being able to play older games, or today's games years from now).

I imagine if I only ever bought the new big AAA(A) titles day/month 1 and never traded things in then it wouldn't matter, but I unfortunately do not fall into that category (well, I don't only fall into that category).

 

[MrKaepora]

Probably but then wouldn't it apply to Steam, apps, digital music e.t.c?

Steam is being sued in Germany for not allowing gamers to sell their games and the european comission is starting to pay close attention to digital services practices.

The way I see it, Microsoft is on its way to be fined, again, by the european comission for bad consumer practices.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

What this means for second-hand games is that Microsoft effectively controls how much they cost, because it controls the activation fee. Whether that fee will move up or down or diminish over time isn't clear. But it does mean second-hand games will probably be more expensive than they are now.

Let me say for the millionth time in 48 hours:

This isn't good, and this isn't fair.

 

[Spartaner]

All Remedy games so far have come out on PC. In fact most of these games come out on PC.

yes im aware of that thank you but my pc is mostly shit. also their newest game is exclusive so even if xbone is an anti consumer pos ill eventually buy it just for this and other games i enjoy.

 

[RetroStu]

I expected more from you man!

It's not the consumers fault that Square- Enix needed to sell 6 million units of Tomb Raider to make a profit - it's theirs.

6 million copys is like 360 million worth of revenue, i know Square Enix don't get the full amount but it just shows how greedy they are and what a bullshit situation it really is.

 

[Arnie]

Original and diverse does not equal more expensive to produce. The reason people care about resale values is because these games aren't actually worth the money they are charging, so for many people it's only worth it if they can sell it after they play or buy it used.

Not once did I say that more original content is more expensive to produce. I said it's harder to recoup whatever costs you spent on it, because people know this used game market exists and that two months down the line they can get it for a third of the price.

I agree that games need to be cheaper, and that we can't expect a universal pricing structure to suffice. But that's a different discussion.

This is just not the case at all. This narrative has gone on for so long because it seems feasible, but isn't actually based on hard facts.

I had to make a post about this yesterday. It includes a quote from EA's CFO:

http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58889465&postcount=843

Here's the quote from Gamestop's CEO:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngau...-one-playstation-4-used-games-and-pre-orders/

That assumes a person is going to reinvest the money into a game from the same publisher, or that all publishers and thus developers will benefit enough to cover their losses.

That doesn't work for a publishing house like THQ.

 

[ascii42]

That can only be good news.

But what does it mean for used games on PS4? Will they have some kind of anti used games system in place? Maybe something as simple as codes in boxes not unlike the online passes of today?

Yeah. I don't see Sony doing anything beyond online passes.

 

[MikeE21286]

people look at that update 2...

Not to be rude, but of course that's the way it would work.


Anyone who thought otherwise was outta their mind.

 

[Kagari]

What this means for second-hand games is that Microsoft effectively controls how much they cost, because it controls the activation fee. Whether that fee will move up or down or diminish over time isn't clear. But it does mean second-hand games will probably be more expensive than they are now.

Let me say for the millionth time in 48 hours:

This isn't good, and this isn't fair.

It's greedy as fuck.

 

[darkstar0155]

Those industries don't have the endemic problem that the games industry does, though, in that costs to create this entertainment keep rising, and yet more and more people are choosing to buy used and cut the content creators out of the equation.

so instead of fixing the problem they are creating (inflated budgets), your ok with them taking away consumer rights?

Used sales are legalised piracy, essentially. Not from the consumer's perspective (they certainly aren't guilty of anything), but from the end result.

is used car/book/any other physical product piracy too? I guess im pirating my car when i sell it used

I feel like there's a huge contradiction here on GAF. People are appalled by this, which is a move to cut out the used game problem that is killing off developers and even publishers, yet they want increasingly diverse and original entertainment.

That's not how it works. If the only games people buy new are shooters, then that's all people will make, because the fear of two big budget, original titles failing and tanking a huge company is very real. People might buy these off the wall, original IPs, but they're more likely to do it used at half the price.

I'm not thrilled about not being able to borrow Call of Duty from my friend when I fancy the odd game of zombies, but I'm not distraught about it, either. I'd be more bothered if my favourite developer went under or every game that game out involved killing things in some capacity, which is where this industry's going.

or they could fix their borken buisness strategies, instead of trying to take away consumer rights. Is the car companies complaining that used car lots are destroying their buisnees? Because im sure the ration of used/new car sales is a lot higher than used/new game sales

.

 

[Ponn]

Now we're at the stage where gamers and gamestop are to blame for a companies poor financial decisions.

Dont you feel bad?

 

[nib95]

To actually hear these people say " I'm ok with this" or " sounds fair" disgusts me.

Have you ever this generation EVER bought a used game from amazon or eBay? How about a swapmeet? Mom and pop game shop? Ever buy a game from your friend? Borrow a game from your friend? Sell a game to your friend? Let them borrow a game?

This will all be lost with xbone. And you sit there and say " I'm ok with this?"

You lost private rights to sell, rent, or just fucking give away a game to charity.

Fuck you guys Serioulsy.

Definitely much worse for the consumer.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

My source didn't know what Sony was up to but doubts the PlayStation maker will do the same thing, not because it's angelic but because it lacks the kind of pricey infrastructure something like this requires.

Please be true.

 

[angelic]

So what will be the physical difference between a non authenticated and used game, if both were unsealed? You could have a pile of opened Halo 5's (GAME often open their games to put the discs in a drawer), with no way to tell which one is used or not.

Amazing.

 

[RetroStu]

Wait people are rioting over this good. There is hope left.

People were saying that GAME shouldn't stock it as its anti consumer, the poor GAME staff member was even pushed to the floor in the middle of a scuffle between people sticking up for the X1 and Sony fanboys getting their digs in.

One thing i will say though is that when i passed GAME going into town, they had 'Pre Order Xbox One Now! billboards and posters all over the windows and outside but when i actually went into the store an hour later, all the posters and billboards were gone.
I don't think all this anti consumer stuff is going to effect sales with the masses, not until Christmas time when they open preseants etc and realise just what they can and can't do with the machine.
.

 

[DieH@rd]

Damn, this thread is moving really fast.
/prepares for a long reading session

I get the feeling they are looking right now. From the chatter I've been hearing Sony are working on a completely offline system for authorisation and deactivation and users will be allowed to deactivate games for resale themselves. I think it is related to the patent they filed early last year. I think games will be allowed an activation on up to 3 consoles like PSN games are atm. After you reach the limit it will ask you to deactivate the game on one of the three consoles. When you want to sell the game you can deactivate all of the consoles and trade it in.

At least that's what the chatter is right now. Obviously none of this information is from Sony, just chatter and rumours...

This sounds totally OK.

 

[RumblingRosco]

That assumes a person is going to reinvest the money into a game from the same publisher, or that all publishers and thus developers will benefit enough to cover their losses.

That doesn't work for a publishing house like THQ.

I can assure you that if I have $200 to spend on games, and I buy 4 games at $50 each, then re-sell them for $40 each, I'll have as much as $160 to spend on something; maybe more games (from the same or a different publisher), maybe food, maybe put into my savings, who knows.

If I instead can only sell those $200 worth of games back for $80, because I can only take it to GameStop as opposed to selling it privately (where I consistently get more for each game), then I assuredly have less money to spend on games, even if some/the majority of that goes back to the publisher via Microsoft's activation fee.

So what does that mean? It means I'm playing fewer games at the end of the day, because I have less money to spend on games. And since I now have fewer games, I'm probably spending less time gaming. Meaning, I'm going to find something else to do with my time since gaming has suddenly become a less affordable hobby. Certainly, I won't be giving up gaming forever, but it absolutely means that gaming, as a hobby, is worth less for what I'm spending on it than it did before this draconian used-sale system was implemented.

 

[Jea Song]

Don't get me wrong either. Most of my games I bought brand new. I support developers who make awesome games and I gladly pay my fair share for a new game.

But there are times where I find myself buying a used copy because its cheaper. Maybe I'm at a garage sale and see a good deal. Hell GameStop ENCOURAGES you to buy a game used with their powerup card discount and warranty.

I subscribe to gamefly. I play a game beat it, then move on. Sometimes if I really liked the game, I go out and buy it brand new.

I own both a 360 and ps3. I love both systems and some of their exclusives.

As much as I love halo, I won't support Xbone with the current info that we have on used games.

I hope Sony doesn't do the same thing. So far no evidence suggest they are but there isn't concrete evidence they won't.

Should both of them implent this DDR stuff all my sales will go to Nintendo.

Maybe once again Nintendo can save this industry from total destruction.

 

[MrKaepora]

To actually hear these people say " I'm ok with this" or " sounds fair" disgusts me.

Have you ever this generation EVER bought a used game from amazon or eBay? How about a swapmeet? Mom and pop game shop? Ever buy a game from your friend? Borrow a game from your friend? Sell a game to your friend? Let them borrow a game?

This will all be lost with xbone. And you sit there and say " I'm ok with this?"

You lost private rights to sell, rent, or just fucking give away a game to charity.

Fuck you guys Serioulsy.

Jea Song

Did the right thing

 

[Atrophis]

If its £35 minimum for a second hand copy I guess that means standard price for new software is £50. What a steal!

 

[BrokenEchelon]

Damn, this thread is moving really fast.
/prepares for a long reading session




This sounds totally OK.

Perfectly acceptable as long as it doesn't have to do authentication checks with magically DRM Cloud servers every day.

 

[Shinta]

People were saying that GAME shouldn't stock it as its anti consumer, the poor GAME staff member was even pushed to the floor in the middle of a scuffle between people sticking up for the X1 and Sony fanboys getting their digs in.

One thing i will say though is that when i passed GAME going into town, they had 'Pre Order Xbox One Now! billboards and posters all over the windows and outside but when i actually went into the store an hour later, all the posters and billboards were gone.
I don't think all this anti consumer stuff is going to effect sales with the masses, not until Christmas time when they open preseants etc and realise just what they can and can't do with the machine.
.

Is this true? I need video.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I sell private on Amazon all the time. If I buy a $60 game and it sucks, I can usually get $40 back if I flip it quickly. At Gamestop, however, I get screwed.

Under a system like this, I would buy fewer games.

Of course, it's irrelevant because due to this radical change I'm not buying an Xbox One, despite being an Xbox gamer since 2001 and a Live Gold member since 2002. You know, if they'd have had backwards compatibility they still might have managed to pull me in.

(I'm not mad or bitter, I'm just leaving)

 

[mckmas8808]

So what's going to happen to Gamefly? That's the big question for me.

 

[QaaQer]

Not once did I say that more original content is more expensive to produce. I said it's harder to recoup whatever costs you spent on it, because people know this used game market exists and that two months down the line they can get it for a third of the price.

I agree that games need to be cheaper, and that we can't expect a universal pricing structure to suffice. But that's a different discussion.

That assumes a person is going to reinvest the money into a game from the same publisher, or that all publishers and thus developers will benefit enough to cover their losses.

That doesn't work for a publishing house like THQ.

thq died because the management bet on udraw and cheap licensed games.

 

[Dipswitch]

It wouldn't surprise me if MS wrung concessions from game publishers (Think higher licensing costs, exclusivity windows, etc), in exchange for MS taking it on the chin from a PR perspective and publishers getting a cut of used game sales.

That could conceivably allow them to release the hardware itself for a cheaper price, thus driving hardware sales, which in turn allows this new used games policy to gain traction.

As it stands, flogging the hardware for lower than expected cost is one of the few ways they'll be able to overcome the negative opinion surrounding the console.