Saying there is legitimate research supporting both sides is just not true.
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Measles hits 20 year high in US, 'driven by unvaccinated people'
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Saying there is legitimate research supporting both sides is just not true.
eso76
Member
Legitimate often means endorsed. Again with conspiracy theories... Nope, not going there.
Let's just say I've read professor this and Dr that of the university of such attached to claims saying more research is needed on vaccines's side effects. No official research, that's well known.
I feel like this is in tension with wanting to be understanding of people who get scared away from vaccines because of misleading stories like this.
That people get misled by various things and conclude that vaccines cause autism is the whole problem. And it's a huge problem. "Measles hits 20 year high in US", after all. So as a matter of public health it's important to make clear just how wrong this conclusion is. The hope is that by making clear how stupid this conclusion is in light of all the evidence we have, and how much harm people are doing by acting on this conclusion, people will be less likely to come to it in the first place.
That's not to say that any parent who believes that their kid has autism because of vaccines is a terrible person, but they're basically in the epistemic position of a faith healer, and we ought to do everything we can to communicate to them how wrong they are even if only for the sake of any future children they may have.
More about peer reviewed research and not making up information like Wakefield's. discredited study.
Messofanego
Banned
So, these anti-vaccination folk really don't care about their children, huh. So sad, and the fact that they're piggybacking on outdated false claims from Andrew Wakefield who should be in prison and Jenny McCarthy (she wrote the foreword for his book and has helped spread the lies) who should be sued by parents whose children have gotten the diseases because of not vaccinating.
so why don't you post a link so we can see what you're talking about?
the review i linked was done by the CDC and NIH - you don't get more legit than that. the studies they reviewed were all HIGH POWERED studies that were well peer reviewed, and none of them showed a link between autism and vaccines, which means they all found the same rates of autism in both vaccinated and unvaccinated children
link us even ONE study that shows the opposite
Messofanego
Banned
Wait for eso76 to say that they've been covering up the other side of the research and wouldn't let it be published because they're not funded by big pharma or some other kooky conspiracy theorist claims.
did you know that vaccines (at least the ones that have been around for a while) are not at all lucrative? it's gotten to the point where only one company makes each type of vaccine, and they'd rather not - there's no money in it (the government has to pick up the tab) and the government has to stock so much of each vaccine due to how frequently the single factory that makes the vaccine has to shut down temporarily, so as to prevent shortages. despite the stockpiling, vaccine shortages happen a lot more than you would think.
Kano on the Phone
Member
We all understand what legitimate means. The only people that ever argue the semantics of legitimacy are people who have no legitimacy.
I can show you some doctors that graduated from Liberty University with some interesting takes on science that's perfectly factual. An argument from authority is especially fallacious when no one with any real authority is asserting a certain position (like anti-vaccination).
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
As a man with autism, I salute your jib.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
It may have started out like that but much like a disease it's spreading globally.
Messofanego
Banned
Yup, which is why that is used for dramatic tension in movies where class warfare comes into play as to who gets the vaccine. But that won't stop the conspiracies.
It didn't even really get popularized in the us either. For once the us isn't leading in idiocy
eso76
Member
You're wrong, I have no interest in doing so or promoting any position and that was never my point at all, but I don't want to start over.
Anyway, thanks for your time everyone and thanks for making this an educating thread.
You come across a lot of different stuff on the web, it may be hard to know what to trust.
I'm not providing links, this would go on forever.
The anti vaccination crowd is very vocal, and people don't really look for the truth a lot of the time.
People don't look for information, they look for theories confirming their own ideas.
And I guess internet is large enough that you can pretty much find a theory supporting any idea.
Until the next research, I'll trust you guys (not that it makes any difference besides personal knowledge, because I followed my doctor's advice when it was my daughter's turn, and NEVER advised anyone to do otherwise).
When asked for facts, he bows out
jetpacks was yes
Member
I'm still trying to understand where the anti-vaccine movement came from. Does it just stem from a complete lack of trust in authority, of expert consensus?
Messofanego
Banned
That, and reading Andrew Wakefield's wiki helps. When parents hear claims like that about their children, they'll understandably overreact, then there are celebrity figures like Jenny McCarthy who tried to spread it everywhere they could. Also, biased news sources like Fox News, Daily Mail, The Sun, whatever tabloid rag who'll spin it as truth of drugs corrupting our children. Ironically, by avoiding the vaccines, they do exactly what they're scared of doing, which is harming the child and possibly letting them die.
Let's not forget Oprah, who gave Jenny McCarthy waaaaay bigger platform than she deserve or would've got otherwise.
Also, it's worth mentioning that when everyone immunize their kids and you chose not to, there's not a huge downside for you, your kid benefit from herd immunity and you don't get to stick needle in them or risk the (rather minimal and unlikley, but not impossible) side effects.
The problem is that as more and more people start doing it, the herd immunity losing its effectiveness, and the first people who get screwed are people who can't get immunize, usually people with cancer, AIDS or other immune deficiency illnesses.
Marty Chinn
Member
I think the funny thing about this quote is you can't tell which side of the argument it's from =)
What?
Marty Chinn
Member
Anti-vaccine people feel the same way.
Well, as I'm not a fucking idiot, it should be obvious that I'm pro vaccine.
He's saying vaccine conspiracies use the same rhetoric, just without the backing of evidence.
Marty Chinn
Member
I didn't say you were,but without specifics, it's the same arguement from both sides which is why I said the quote is kinda funny. Both sides feel you're doing harm by your actions and that the people who don't agree with them are unwise. So a generic quote like that without details is the same argument on both sides so I thought it was funny that a generic post could be used by either side of the coin.
There are many intellectuals, mostly in organic or alternate scene, who are responsible for the anti-vaccine movement too.
Ideology is as bad as stupidity, if not worse.
Messofanego
Banned
Was it in the "this crazy controversial person gets us more views, so let's bring her on" like British media have with Katie Hopkins or she genuinely believed in all this?
eso76
Member
Wut?
Hey, I was the one supposed to have reading comprehension issues !
It's ok, it certainly is my fault. English is not my first language after all.
I never claimed to have facts, in fact I only claimed to have doubts, some of which this thread helped mitigate.
I just said people will come across articles supporting any theory. I won't link them because they are very easy to find and I'm sure the more informed ppl in this thread perfectly know already,and can counter-link away. Andm, then i'm sure with some digging we can find a counter-counter-links, and so on and so forth. This is not something I care wasting anyone's time for, though, because I never wanted to promote a position. That was never the point at all, and I surely hope that much is clear.
All I'm saying is people will come across lots of different stuff that looks legit enough for them to be afraid.
But what I'm trying to say is there are ZERO real, scientific studies done that show any link whatsoever between any of the claims that people make. All they have on their side is whatever shit some people post on their 'good parenting blog'
I'm asking for even one that's not like a CNN ireport
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