• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Metroid: Samus Returns |OT| What's past is prologue.

Surfside

Banned
I think the problem for me, in terms of the
Diggernaut (and Queen Metroid, to a lesser degree)
is that the encountered is designed so that you will most likely lose on your first attempt or two. Like, its attacks just fill up too much screen space and do too much damage, such that you're probably not going to avoid them the first few times you see them, and there is very little leeway because they'll kill you in a couple of hits. That's not fun; that's bullshit.


I love these kinda boss fights. First you see no land. But as you learn all the patterns, the fight itself becomes trivial. Feels like you've grown. That's why i love Monster Hunter so much as it operates like this.
 

Sterok

Member
There's a reason you respawn right outside the door of boss fights. They're definitely tough, and lots of players are going to die to them, but there's minimal frustration to dying, and a player that pays attention can quickly get down their pattern. Aside from Diggernaut, the bosses all die pretty quickly once you get a feel for their attacks and remember all your moves.
 

Mael

Member
I guess I waited long enough.
So after all this I have a question to the OT :
Is it any good?
The only Metroid game I didn't finish extensively was Metroid 1 (but I play it fairly often, just never to completion) and I guess Federation forces.
the only I despise is Other M (as if you notice me posting you should already know).
I absolutely love the Prime games (with favoring Prime 2).
For the 2D Metroid games, I love Metroid 2, Super Metroid is cool but way too easy.
Fusion is sorta nice and I never really cared about Zero Mission (because if I want to play Super Metroid, I have something like 5 ways to do that already).

I heard that this one doesn't even begin to try to be Metroid 2 but at least it's not trying to be Super Metroid or something right?
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
There's a reason you respawn right outside the door of boss fights. They're definitely tough, and lots of players are going to die to them, but there's minimal frustration to dying, and a player that pays attention can quickly get down their pattern. Aside from Diggernaut, the bosses all die pretty quickly once you get a feel for their attacks and remember all your moves.

Which makes them feel more Dragon's Lairish rather than challenging.
 
I don't like elements that have to change the game's rules to operate within a game. Why does a non spinning gear hurt Samus? Why does an iron railing hurt her? Oh, to force you into a dumb timing "puzzle" that you could've otherwise just jumped over. Oh, you're inside? That's nice. Better not make a single mistake or else you'll get instantly pooped out.

Oh and you'll lose 10 minutes dodging the canned sequence you must endure just to try it again.

If you don't melee counter at certain times in other fights... Guess how many missiles it takes to kill *one* without playing QTE? Roughly 75! That's not great design IMO. That's pointlessly tedious guess the gimmick wonkery.

It's not a gear. It's literally a sharp boring drill. It's sharp, so it hurts.

Stop calling it the melee counters QTE. That's not what they are.

Also, if you can't hit the counters despite being very obviously telegraphed, then maybe you should consider getting good at the game. Or just ignore them; you could just as easily use Aeon abilities to inflict damage instead.
 
I guess I waited long enough.
So after all this I have a question to the OT :
Is it any good?
The only Metroid game I didn't finish extensively was Metroid 1 (but I play it fairly often, just never to completion) and I guess Federation forces.
the only I despise is Other M (as if you notice me posting you should already know).
I absolutely love the Prime games (with favoring Prime 2).
For the 2D Metroid games, I love Metroid 2, Super Metroid is cool but way too easy.
Fusion is sorta nice and I never really cared about Zero Mission (because if I want to play Super Metroid, I have something like 5 ways to do that already).

I heard that this one doesn't even begin to try to be Metroid 2 but at least it's not trying to be Super Metroid or something right?
If you like Metroid you should absolutely check it out. If it helps, it kinda feels like Metroid Prime in 2D--it has a lot of similar puzzle design sensibilities that don't normally appear in 2D Metroid, and some of the bosses feel very Prime-esque (one late game boss basically feels like a Metroid Prime 2 styled boss flattened onto a 2D plane).
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
It's not a gear. It's literally a sharp
boring drill
. It's sharp, so it hurts.
That's not how those work. (Especially in the inside of the shaft.) It's a goofy nonsolution just to keep you from jumping past it.

Stop calling it the melee counters QTE. That's not what they are.
There's big flash and a noise, then you hit the button and it either works or fails. That's a QTE.

Also, if you can't hit the counters despite being very obviously telegraphed, then maybe you should consider getting good at the game. Or just ignore them; you could just as easily use Aeon abilities to inflict damage instead.

Aeon abilities aren't nearly as effective.

That aside, once the flying things started being immune to the counter when they plasmaed up, I assumed that the counter was ineffective against stronger attacks so I didn't risk it during the boss fights until the second to last boss.

Given the fights are explicitly balanced for that counter, it just creates an artificially bloated encounter if you don't explicitly play by the QTE's rules.

Metroids shouldn't take 75 missiles to take down.
 

Sterok

Member
Aeon abilities aren't nearly as effective.

Beam Burst tears through all enemies like butter. If you use counter + Beam Burst Gammas can die in a single counter. Even without the counter enemies die really fast to Beam Burst. You just need better aim then.
 
I love these kinda boss fights. First you see no land. But as you learn all the patterns, the fight itself becomes trivial. Feels like you've grown. That's why i love Monster Hunter so much as it operates like this.
There's a reason you respawn right outside the door of boss fights. They're definitely tough, and lots of players are going to die to them, but there's minimal frustration to dying, and a player that pays attention can quickly get down their pattern. Aside from Diggernaut, the bosses all die pretty quickly once you get a feel for their attacks and remember all your moves.
I think it's a matter of taste. Personally, I'd prefer boss fights where you can adapt on the fly and win that way, even if they are really hard or tedious. I don't like that you need to rely on rote memorization (for example, the
Queen Metroid
has an attack that fills the screen, except for the top-right corner. I can almost guarantee we all got hit by that the first time). It's like putting spikes right at the beginning of the next screen in a Mega Man game (MM9 does this), and you cannot react to them, so you just die and retry.

EDIT: To be clear, I really like this game, and I had a lot of fun even against those bosses. I just don't like the way those encounters were designed.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Beam Burst tears through all enemies like butter. If you use counter + Beam Burst Gammas can die in a single counter. Even without the counter enemies die really fast to Beam Burst. You just need better aim then.

How can I get good by playing EZ mode? I beat them for reals.
 
Wait. Hold the fuck on.

BEAM BURST WORKS ON METROIDS!? Fuuuuu...

Pro-tip: Power Bomb works against Omegas. It instantly blows up their chest shields.
 
There's big flash and a noise, then you hit the button and it either works or fails. That's a QTE.

Going by Wikipedia, it fails to meet the definition:

It allows for limited control of the game character during cut scenes or cinematic sequences in the game. Performing the prompted action improperly or not at all results in the character's failure at their task and often in an immediate game over.

The counters are an integrated (and optional) component of the battles, and not doing them cannot directly cause a game over (as the counter is not the only means of evading an enemy attack).
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
You're claiming Punch Out is a QTE game.

It pretty much is.

Going by Wikipedia, it fails to meet the definition:



The counters are an integrated (and optional) component of the battles, and not doing them cannot directly cause a game over (as the counter is not the only means of evading an enemy attack).

By your overly strict definition of that defintion, (it says right there that a hard failure state isn't requisite) most QTE's in Shenmue don't count because they don't instantly kill Ryo. The fact that successful completion of a counter triggers a cut scene? By that definition, it's definitely a QTE.
 

D.Lo

Member
It pretty much is.
It is not, that's ridiculous. It's a timing/reaction/rhythm based action engine. You can use all your moves all the time, but only when using the right timing, based on enemy tells, are they effective.

QTEs are interactive cutscenes. You do not have the full, regular control of your character during them. You can't move left and right, shoot, attack etc, you can only hit a button combo of some sort, usually displayed on the screen as a prompt. It's essentially an entire separate limited minigame during a cutscene. They may be similar to Punch Out action, but instead of using your regular game controls you are ripped out of the regular game and forced into another game of 'Simon'.

Metroid simply has a timing based counter move folded in with its regular action. You can do the counter at any time, even when no enemies are there if you like, and when it is done against an enemy your regular controls are not taken away at all. There are bits of cutscene in battles, but that doesn't make them QTEs either, just bits of cutscene like most action games since the 80s have had to add drama. Something happening because you do a move or reach a point in a fight is not a QTE, QTEs are forced interactive cutscenes instead of regular gameplay.
 

Greedings

Member
So I finished last night, I really enjoyed the game, but I cannot play metroidvanias in one go. Need to break that time up, which makes it perfect for the 3DS.

I really enjoyed the action oriented playstyle that MS went for, but I felt a little like it was...too colourful. I don't know, it was a bit too much of a happy colour scheme for what is essentially a mission to wipe out an entire species to extinction.

I only got 52% because of a rather frustrating no-return point
I was exploring the top zone, just spin attacking through the air then...Ridley! Wasn't expecting it, good fight but I wanted to explore then come back to my ship later

The boss fights were pretty darn good, I wasn't expecting them to be so hard, but learning the tells and routines was really fun, and usually ended up me finishing some of the harder bosses only having taken a single hit (after failing multiple times before that) because I knew their movements so well.

I genuinely liked the addition of the secret scanner, it's much better than the x-ray vision, but does essentially the same thing, and made looking for the particular block to destroy less frustrating. Although you do lose a little of the sense of discovering you believe no one else noticed, but I think I'm ok with that.

Overall I really liked it, certainly not the best Metroid, but a good successor to Metroid 2 (my least favourite) and a great modern edition of a 2D Metroid.
 
You're claiming Punch Out is a QTE game.

It pretty much is.

 

TheMoon

Member
None of the new ideas in this game were theirs. This was all Sakamoto.

Broly, please stop with with ridiculous head canon. No matter how often you keep making stuff like this up, it won't make it real.

Nintendo doesn't understand character development, storyline, or atmosphere. These are alien concepts to them. Their core studios focus on puzzles, strategy, and platformers. While their western branches and other affiliates deliver everything else.

lol we firing on all cylinders now ahahahah

what are you guys smoking

I guess I waited long enough.
So after all this I have a question to the OT :
Is it any good?
The only Metroid game I didn't finish extensively was Metroid 1 (but I play it fairly often, just never to completion) and I guess Federation forces.
the only I despise is Other M (as if you notice me posting you should already know).
I absolutely love the Prime games (with favoring Prime 2).
For the 2D Metroid games, I love Metroid 2, Super Metroid is cool but way too easy.
Fusion is sorta nice and I never really cared about Zero Mission (because if I want to play Super Metroid, I have something like 5 ways to do that already).

I heard that this one doesn't even begin to try to be Metroid 2 but at least it's not trying to be Super Metroid or something right?

It's fantastic. And hard af. But little to no punishment for dying so it balances out.

It's not dreary drab Metroid 2, it's lush but hostile Metroid 2.

Also, today I learned Bayonetta's combat is QTE since Witch Time is executed by dodging attacks (effectively the same as the counter). Or Max Payne's shootdodge.

Like what. lol
 

TheMoon

Member
How can anyone that has played a Punch-Out game thinks that's a QTE game is beyond me.

Well you gotta do what you gotta do if you wanna win that "everything I'm reacting to that turns my defensive move into an offensive advantage is a QTE" argument, no? :)
 

Mael

Member
If you like Metroid you should absolutely check it out. If it helps, it kinda feels like Metroid Prime in 2D--it has a lot of similar puzzle design sensibilities that don't normally appear in 2D Metroid, and some of the bosses feel very Prime-esque (one late game boss basically feels like a Metroid Prime 2 styled boss flattened onto a 2D plane).
Ok, so this is more like a Prime version of a 2D Metroid than Metroid 2 or simply reusing Super Metroid as the crutch to make the game.
Kinda like how FFXII is using FFT's Ivalice instead of using the more usual schemas of FFVII/VIII/X.
It's fantastic. And hard af. But little to no punishment for dying so it balances out.

Ok, so it's modern kinda like in the Xeno games where the game can be hard af but since you're brought back quickly and painlessly enough you're not punished that hard for dying.
It's no Dark Souls I guess.
It can work, not my 1st choice if I were to remake myself but if the whole game is thought around that it's ok.

It's not dreary drab Metroid 2, it's lush but hostile Metroid 2.

And I guess this is the biggest problem I have with the concept of the game.
games with hostile environments are a dime a dozen but a game trying to be dreary and succeeding in doing so is exceedingly rare.
 

Astral Dog

Member
I guess I waited long enough.
So after all this I have a question to the OT :
Is it any good?
The only Metroid game I didn't finish extensively was Metroid 1 (but I play it fairly often, just never to completion) and I guess Federation forces.
the only I despise is Other M (as if you notice me posting you should already know).
I absolutely love the Prime games (with favoring Prime 2).
For the 2D Metroid games, I love Metroid 2, Super Metroid is cool but way too easy.
Fusion is sorta nice and I never really cared about Zero Mission (because if I want to play Super Metroid, I have something like 5 ways to do that already).

I heard that this one doesn't even begin to try to be Metroid 2 but at least it's not trying to be Super Metroid or something right?

This is a solid game for any Metroid fan
 

ghibli99

Member
My thought on QTEs is that they (a) have an on-screen button prompt, and (b) require almost nothing in the way of actual timing (Uncharted, Tomb Raider, etc.). Sure, if you don't press anything, you'll enter an automatic fail state within a second or so, but it's not like the precision timing of Punch-Out, melee counters here in SR, enabling Witch Time in Bayonetta, etc. Very different things IMO.
 

Astral Dog

Member
Nintendo doesn't understand character development, storyline, or atmosphere. These are alien concepts to them. Their core studios focus on puzzles, strategy, and platformers. While their western branches and other affiliates deliver everything else.
this is dumb
this thread got dumb suddendly
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
QTEs? Fucking really? So every parry mechanic with a visual cue (all of them) are QTEs then

Yep. Dislike all of the accordingly.

Metroid simply has a timing based counter move folded in with its regular action. You can do the counter at any time, even when no enemies are there if you like, and when it is done against an enemy your regular controls are not taken away at all. There are bits of cutscene in battles, but that doesn't make them QTEs either, just bits of cutscene like most action games since the 80s have had to add drama. Something happening because you do a move or reach a point in a fight is not a QTE, QTEs are forced interactive cutscenes instead of regular gameplay.

Which triggers a cutscene. Which opens up a state unachievable by any other method in the game.
 

Anteo

Member
Yep. Dislike all of the accordingly.



Which triggers a cutscene. Which opens up a state unachievable by any other method in the game.

A cutscene that doesnt prompt you to do anything, that you cant fail and where you can choose what beam/misile and how many shoots you make.
 

KingBroly

Banned
I really want to start a new run, but I keep getting distracted. I also want to beat it in under 4 hours, so I have to learn routing
 

D.Lo

Member
Which triggers a cutscene. Which opens up a state unachievable by any other method in the game.
That's called a cutscene. Not a QTE. Like when you hit the pole in Super Mario Bros, it triggers a cutscene of mario sliding down the pole and walking into a castle - it 'opens a state unachievable by any other method in the game'. I guess Super Mario Bros was a QTE game.

You seriously have no idea what a QTE is.
 

Timeaisis

Member
The area 6 boss can go straight to hell. I needed an excuse to not finish this game and here it is.

Tedious, boring, and cheap. The greatest combo.
 
tedious and boring I'd agree, cheap though? Hes really easy since hes so slow.

The absurd amount of damage he does (each hit does like 25-50% of your health if you have every possible upgrade up to that point, more damage than any other boss in the game inflicts per hit) is why he is cheap. It took a good hour of trial and error (and a little Googling) before I figured out how to get through the fight. It was easily the worst part of the whole game for me.
 
The absurd amount of damage he does (each hit does like 25-50% of your health if you have every possible upgrade up to that point, more damage than any other boss in the game inflicts per hit) is why he is cheap. It took a good hour of trial and error (and a little Googling) before I figured out how to get through the fight. It was easily the worst part of the whole game for me.
he definitely does a lot of damage, but on the second try I never got hit. Hes more telegraphed than the metroids.
 
he definitely does a lot of damage, but on the second try I never got hit. Hes more telegraphed than the metroids.

Once you know his patterns you can beat him easily, but he does so much damage that I found myself dying before having a chance to learn his patterns. And he has three distinct phases, with different move sets, so once I'd get through one phase, and he started using new moves, I'd die again. And then I'd have to make my way through the previous phases to that one again to try and learn this new move set.

I don't hate this fight as others do. I actually kind of found it rewarding, if a bit frustrating. But I can't blame people for not liking it. It felt like hitting a brick wall, and getting through it required me to die continuously for the sake of memorizing patterns and realizing how I needed to move to avoid his monstrous attacks.

Edit: just for reference I'd guess it took took me around 20 attempts over 3 days to beat him
 
Once you know his patterns you can beat him easily, but he does so much damage that I found myself dying before having a chance to learn his patterns. And he has three distinct phases, with different move sets, so once I'd get through one phase, and he started using new moves, I'd die again. And then I'd have to make my way through the previous phases to that one again to try and learn this new move set.

I don't hate this fight as others do. I actually kind of found it rewarding, if a bit frustrating. But I can't blame people for not liking it. It felt like hitting a brick wall, and getting through it required me to dye continuously for the sake of memorizing patterns and realizing how I needed to move to avoid his monstrous attacks.
I guess I just dont understand the memorizing patterns part. I've dealt with that a fair share before giving up on MMOs, but with this guy his moves are so telegraphed that even when phases shift its easy enough to adjust.
 
I guess I just dont understand the memorizing patterns part. I've dealt with that a fair share before giving up on MMOs, but with this guy his moves are so telegraphed that even when phases shift its easy enough to adjust.

I see your point, and I now agree it wasn't memorizing his patterns that was all that hard. I guess what I meant to say was that the difficulty was more in finding out how to avoid the attack once I knew what was coming. I had to memorize the right way to dodge each of his moves, and that took me a while because it felt like his moves took up most of the screen and did so much damage.
 
I see your point, and I now agree it wasn't memorizing his patterns that was all that hard. I guess what I meant to say was that the difficulty was more in finding out how to avoid the attack once I knew what was coming. I had to memorize the right way to dodge each of his moves, and that took me a while because it felt like his moves took up most of the screen and did so much damage.
I can see that a little more then. Though I didnt find anything hard to figure out. Using morph ball to shoot the gap between the arms being the most difficult but also very early in the fight.

The second stunned arm's rotation pattern swapping around was a little bullshit though, only get hit by that once anyway.

Well, his attacks hit for about 1/4 of your health. So, yeah. Cheap. Once you learn the patterns, I'm sure it's easy, but I'm not a patient man in regards to frustrating things.
I can't equate damage dealt to cheap though. Hes a big hulking slow easy to dodge ogre. He trades unpredictability and fast attacks for damage. Its a pretty standard tradeoff for boss design.
 

Samus Aran

Member
So GAF, this is more of a technical question, but I bought the New 3DS XL Samus Edition, and noticed some light coming in from the top on the end screen. I will post a picture which you can click to get it larger. Is my device faulty or is this normal? Thanks.

 
So GAF, this is more of a technical question, but I bought the New 3DS XL Samus Edition, and noticed some light coming in from the top on the end screen. I will post a picture which you can click to get it larger. Is my device faulty or is this normal? Thanks.


I seem to have a similar artifact on mine though my photo isn't as clear:



I'm guessing they just didn't completely scroll off the last of the credits offscreen when the ending visual comes up.
 
Top Bottom