• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Metroid: Samus Returns |OT| What's past is prologue.

KingBroly

Banned
Nintendo cares about Metroid, they are just absolutely clueless of what makes the games and Samus so loved by the press and fans alike. On one hand this means the will stick with the tried and true formula, on the other it limits innovation, I really hope we can get more than just clones of Super Metroid and Metroid prime ad nauseum, but if the alternative is games like Other M/Federation Force then I'll take the former.

I still don't think they get it.

If Other M was a 'what happened?,' then Federation Force was a 'we don't care what you want' kinda game. After Bill Trinen trying to sell it as 'oh, the fans are confused about what this, but they still want it cuz it says Metroid,' you knew they had no clue about what the series was or what fans liked about it.

They lost the series with Other M and they're never going to get it back because of it. It's done. It's over. Samus Returns...while fine, still has the problems that Other M had, focusing on combat in a situation where it should be frowned upon. Sakamoto wants to make an action game, but is using the wrong series to do it with. Samus Returns is hard, but it doesn't make it scary or tense like Metroid 2 or even the Wrecked Ship in Metroid 2 were. If you want a Metroid 2 remake, it has to be like that area, but for the entire game.
 

Lunar15

Member
One could argue that Super Metroid also missed the point of previous games in the series... but not many people really say that because it's a beloved game for good reason. Fusion was also criticized from breaking with the formula too much.

I dunno, Samus Returns, for all it's flaws, is a good game. It's also a metroid-ass metroid game. I find it funny that now the same people who said metroid was dead are now saying that Nintendo doesn't get metroid.

At what point does the goal post stop moving? At what point do you acknowledge that things change and that this entire medium is basically an addiction of some sorts, with nostalgia being doled out in doses to get us hooked? It's highly unlikely you'll get the specific high you were looking for again, from the same franchise. It's time to look for other things within your franchise or look elsewhere for the same feeling.
 

NolbertoS

Member
Just beat the game. 16 hours 14 min. I admit I took my sweet ass time exploring every nook and cranny for 100% completion and only managed 95.6% on my first try. Man, I was ecstatic seeing a face from the past, and no the GB final boss is not the final boss in this version. Made the boss fight for challenging. Still loved it and no onto trying to get 100% completion, eventually.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
What is your criteria for "caring about Metroid"? Seems incredibly arbitrary to me. Pretty much since Nintendo did the exact same kind of rollout for MPFF as for MSR with several Treehouse Live sessions during its E3 reveal. Grander even, they debuted one of its modes during the return of the NWC beforehand, showing off the competitive side. But because you didn't care for the style of game, they didn't show they cared?
Given it was just a repackaged zombie game that would've otherwise been killed, it's impossible to believe that federation force proves that Nintendo cares about metroid.

But then playing this game with its two completely out of place god of war bosses, I wonder that about Samus Returns too.
 

Ogodei

Member
I still don't think they get it.

If Other M was a 'what happened?,' then Federation Force was a 'we don't care what you want' kinda game. After Bill Trinen trying to sell it as 'oh, the fans are confused about what this, but they still want it cuz it says Metroid,' you knew they had no clue about what the series was or what fans liked about it.

They lost the series with Other M and they're never going to get it back because of it. It's done. It's over. Samus Returns...while fine, still has the problems that Other M had, focusing on combat in a situation where it should be frowned upon. Sakamoto wants to make an action game, but is using the wrong series to do it with. Samus Returns is hard, but it doesn't make it scary or tense like Metroid 2 or even the Wrecked Ship in Metroid 2 were. If you want a Metroid 2 remake, it has to be like that area, but for the entire game.

I agree there's a lack of atmospheric tension, but i was also in danger of dying more often on the default difficulty than i have been in most Metroid games.

Like i said, it doesn't have the certain special something of past Metroid games, but it's mechanically sound as a bell. I feel like the best comparison is Bayonetta vs Bayonetta 2, sequel doesn't capture the mystique of the former but is much more refined.

Edit: I thought the problem with Federation Force (in terms of this "does Nintendo care" debate) was that it was originally meant as a DSiWare project, like an expansion for Hunters, so the original release date was probably planned as far back as 2010, and it just hit production difficulties but Tanabe liked the idea enough to keep it from getting completely shuttered.

If it had been a DSiWare bonus game in 2010, same year as Other M, the dialogue around it would have been much different.
 

KingBroly

Banned
Given it was just a repackaged zombie game that would've otherwise been killed, it's impossible to believe that federation force proves that Nintendo cares about metroid.

But then playing this game with its two completely out of place god of war bosses, I wonder that about Samus Returns too.

Well, as a side note on Federation Force: The Federation Force puzzle in the 3DS' Streetpass Plaza got stealthily re-named "Join the Federation Force" which was originally called "Metroid Prime Federation Force." It's very odd
 

Astral Dog

Member
I still don't think they get it.

If Other M was a 'what happened?,' then Federation Force was a 'we don't care what you want' kinda game. After Bill Trinen trying to sell it as 'oh, the fans are confused about what this, but they still want it cuz it says Metroid,' you knew they had no clue about what the series was or what fans liked about it.

They lost the series with Other M and they're never going to get it back because of it. It's done. It's over. Samus Returns...while fine, still has the problems that Other M had, focusing on combat in a situation where it should be frowned upon. Sakamoto wants to make an action game, but is using the wrong series to do it with. Samus Returns is hard, but it doesn't make it scary or tense like Metroid 2 or even the Wrecked Ship in Metroid 2 were. If you want a Metroid 2 remake, it has to be like that area, but for the entire game.

what,? i loved the counter System in Samus Returns, it should return in a new game with (slightly) more complex mechanics and enemy design, just because Metroid focuses on exploration doesnt mean it should stagnate in other areas like combat.

Other M didnt fail just because it tried to focus on action a bit more.
 

KingBroly

Banned
what,? i loved the counter System in Samus Returns, it should return in a new game with (slightly) more complex mechanics and enemy design, just because Metroid focuses on exploration doesnt mean it should stagnate in other areas like combat.

Other M didnt fail just because it tried to focus on action a bit more.

I understand that, but Metroid is not, and has never been about the combat. Making it more about the combat, makes it more focused on such and less so about other aspects of the game, such as level and world design. It also makes them more likely to make the game more and more linear the more time/money they pour into combat.

The counter system in Samus Returns is simply the Dodge Roll in Other M. It might work, but it really changes what the series is about, and I don't see it as a good thing.
 

GeekyDad

Gold Member
Just finished it. It was phenomenal all the way through.

Now the wait for Metroid Prime 4 begins.

Fist bump!

It's okay to like this game.

Ughhh I hate this. I'm a huge Nintendo fan and ever since fusion I've known metroid is not for me. But I bought this due to the hype and I sold it for half the price already. I feel like a dumbass. I just can't get myself to like these games. But I can for sure see why fans would love it

As much as I obviously love this game, I do understand that feeling. I am the same way with the Layton and Phoenix Wright games, games I still keep going back to in hopes of one day appreciating them. But they just ain't my thing. The quality is apparent, but...
 
When does the September NPD come out? The US has always been Metroid's only noteworthy market, so that's the one to really keep eyes on.
 

JonnyKong

Member
It took me an embarrassingly long time to beat the first "tougher" Metroid, right before you get the wave beam.

I'm going to be useless against the bosses.
 
I’m on area 3 and can’t believe how great a job Mercury Steam did here. I’ve always had a soft spot for Metroid 2 so they had good source material to work with.

But damn there is some great environmental art and the controls ar wonderful.

Totally digging it.
 

Surfside

Banned
Finished area 6. This was very short. Got to fight a new Metroid. Beat it with just two energy left, puh.
But that was nothing against the Diggernaut fight. Now that was hard. That many deaths...
After i learned all its patterns though, it became easy. I like these kinda boss fights the most. Just like Monster Hunter. Still don't have all abilities it seems, as i can't destroy these bubbles yet.
But i leave that for another day. I need a break.
 
Given it was just a repackaged zombie game that would've otherwise been killed, it's impossible to believe that federation force proves that Nintendo cares about metroid.

But then playing this game with its two completely out of place god of war bosses, I wonder that about Samus Returns too.

what are the god of war bosses?
 

Metroxed

Member
But who makes this rather arbitrary definitions of what Metroid is and isn't about?

I'm as big a Metroid fan as any, having played all the games except MPFF, following the series for a long time, etc., and for me personally Metroid has always been about exploration, but with a great deal of combat. I'd say the relation is 60-40 in favour of exploration, but combat still is a big part of it. The Metroid Prime games I think got this very well, especially the first two. The original Prime had - in my opinion - the perfect balance between power-up hunting exploration and combat.

But Metroid has never been only about exploration. There's a reason Samus carries her arm cannon.

Sometimes I believe some fans of the series have deified Super Metroid so much, that now if the new Metroid isn't basically a clon of that game, then it isn't good enough (or even not good at all). It seems like every new ability or addition brought to the series is frown upon for being different or not being "Metroid enough". I for one cannot see why the melee counter would be so out of place, it really isn't and it does feel like an organic evolution of Samus' abilities.

And I want Metroid games to bring new things. Not just being a repetition over, and over, and over of the same gameplay elements just in new settings. When Samus Returns was announced some fans were complaining about the 3D models and the game not being sprite-based, later about the Aeion abilities, later about the melee combat, later about the atmosphere, later about the ending and about its logistics story-wise... it seems to me they don't want a new Metroid game, they just want Super Metroid again, but exactly as it was (don't dare make any changes, right?). Super Metroid is a fantastic game, but we have to be willing to diverge and find new mechanics that fit with the theme of the series. Other M and Federation Force were in the wrong path, but I think Samus Returns nails it perfectly

I understand the criticism about the game's atmosphere and it is true that it does not recapture the original game's feeling, but I think at some point we should question whether that "scary" or "claustrophobic" feeling that we have attributed to Metroid II was actually how the developers intended the atmosphere to be perceived or if it was just a construction or interpretation by the fans. It could be that the game was the way it was just because of the GameBoy's limitations and there was no other intent.
 

Astral Dog

Member
all things considered, it is though. not great but alright.

i guess...

i mean it will matter if they were to make Metroid 5 on the Switch because it would need a much higher budget than Samus Returns. though with Prime 4 coming that game will show how much the series is comercially viable. at least as a FPS
 

Astral Dog

Member
I understand the criticism about the game's atmosphere and it is true that it does not recapture the original game's feeling, but I think at some point we should question whether that "scary" or "claustrophobic" feeling that we have attributed to Metroid II was actually how the developers intended the atmosphere to be perceived or if it was just a construction or interpretation by the fans. It could be that the game was the way it was just because of the GameBoy's limitations and there was no other intent.
yeah i wonder how much the "atmosphere" of that game was by design or by technical limitations, i mean the Game Boy didnt even have a color screen!

if anything Mercury should be commended for expanding and adding a colorful, diverse, alien world ion 3DS mo, they just failed at enemy diversity,(Probably a time/budget thing)
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
what are the god of war bosses?

The last one and Mr Driller.

Both even have unlabeled QTE sequences. They really don't belong in Metroid. The bosses in every other 2d game weren't a giant setpiece where you have to time rolling up an elbow or else a mysterious hurtbox hits you for half life.

You can tell Mercury Steam was super proud of Mr Driller too since they tacked on that bombastic theme any time it appeared. Gotta make a tedious boss fight with COUNTER HERE moments or else it starts looping while you do whifflebat damage.

I'd rather just have a facelifted clon then weird stuff that Mercury Steam insists on jamming into every franchise they touch.
 
The last one and Mr Driller.

Both even have unlabeled QTE sequences. They really don't belong in Metroid.

You can tell Mercury Steam was super proud of Mr Driller too since they tacked on that bombastic theme any time it appeared.

please elaborate, and which metroid games did you play
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
please elaborate, and which metroid games did you play

Ah good. the purity test..

Lets' see...

Metroid 1
Metroid 2
Zero Mission
Super Metroid (The stupid game that added a space ostrich and a bunny who apparently fly a spaceship badly...)

Is that list comprehensive enough?
 
Ah good. the purity test..

Lets' see...

Metroid 1
Metroid 2
Zero Mission


Is that list comprehensive enough?

It's not a purity test, it's more because in the prime series you have bosses with different phases and puzzle-ish moments where you gotta do something or you won't hurt the enemy. Diggernaut has some similarities to a boss called quadraxis, from prime 2.

I only asked you which games you played because these bosses didn't feel out of place from the series at all, and i think that you have some weird grudge with mercury steam too.
 

ghibli99

Member
But who makes this rather arbitrary definitions of what Metroid is and isn't about?

I'm as big a Metroid fan as any, having played all the games except MPFF, following the series for a long time, etc., and for me personally Metroid has always been about exploration, but with a great deal of combat. I'd say the relation is 60-40 in favour of exploration, but combat still is a big part of it. The Metroid Prime games I think got this very well, especially the first two. The original Prime had - in my opinion - the perfect balance between power-up hunting exploration and combat.

But Metroid has never been only about exploration. There's a reason Samus carries her arm cannon.

Sometimes I believe some fans of the series have deified Super Metroid so much, that now if the new Metroid isn't basically a clon of that game, then it isn't good enough (or even not good at all). It seems like every new ability or addition brought to the series is frown upon for being different or not being "Metroid enough". I for one cannot see why the melee counter would be so out of place, it really isn't and it does feel like an organic evolution of Samus' abilities.

And I want Metroid games to bring new things. Not just being a repetition over, and over, and over of the same gameplay elements just in new settings. When Samus Returns was announced some fans were complaining about the 3D models and the game not being sprite-based, later about the Aeion abilities, later about the melee combat, later about the atmosphere, later about the ending and about its logistics story-wise... it seems to me they don't want a new Metroid game, they just want Super Metroid again, but exactly as it was (don't dare make any changes, right?). Super Metroid is a fantastic game, but we have to be willing to diverge and find new mechanics that fit with the theme of the series. Other M and Federation Force were in the wrong path, but I think Samus Returns nails it perfectly

I understand the criticism about the game's atmosphere and it is true that it does not recapture the original game's feeling, but I think at some point we should question whether that "scary" or "claustrophobic" feeling that we have attributed to Metroid II was actually how the developers intended the atmosphere to be perceived or if it was just a construction or interpretation by the fans. It could be that the game was the way it was just because of the GameBoy's limitations and there was no other intent.
This is a good post. Samus Returns was only the second Metroid game I had ever finished at the time, preceded by Zero Mission, which I thought was great. I had an excellent time with SR, to the point that I 100%'d it. I see a lot of others did too, even those who didn't like the game. Areas were kinda samey, and the basic Metroid battles got a little repetitive, but I loved the traversal, combat, exploration balance, and major bosses.

I also credit it big-time for getting me back into Metroid. Right after SR, I hopped into Super Metroid via Wii U VC. Finished it last week, and thought it was an instant classic. I'm so glad I had the context of SR's story to give weight to some of the scenes in that game, especially the ones near the end.

And now I'm 5+ hours into Metroid Prime, which I think could be the best damn Metroid game I've ever played, certainly one of the top GC games ever. How everything feels so perfect in this game is insane... and the smoothness of it all makes Super feel a little clunky to me in some ways. I'm going to finish the trilogy eventually, and I still have Fusion to get to.

So in my case, SR is a very important game, and now I am better understanding why people went so crazy just seeing the MP4 logo back in June. I don't want the same game over and over again either. Keep the DNA, but do things that are original. It's like wandering into Bloodborne threads... you inevitably have those who think if it's not Demon's Souls, it's garbage.
 

Lynd7

Member
Was this posted? Compares all three versions of the Metroid 2 and delves into some of the areas the remakes may have missed the point compared to the original, not saying the new versions are bad. Interesting comparison.

https://youtu.be/8WkEoYvlUF0

Nintendo should try and push forward and innovate hard with Metroid going forward I think. Ignore the people clamouring for simply more Super Metroid and add and delete conventions much like BotW did with Zelda. Its the only way to have a chance of making a groundbreaking title again I feel. Fans don't actually want more of the same, they want more of what they felt with they played a game like Super Metroid for the first time again, even if they don't realise this.
 

TheMoon

Member
The last one
and
Mr Driller.

Both even have unlabeled QTE sequences. They really don't belong in Metroid. The bosses in every other 2d game weren't a giant setpiece where you have to time rolling up an elbow or else a mysterious hurtbox hits you for half life.

You can tell Mercury Steam was super proud of
Mr Driller
too since they tacked on that bombastic theme any time it appeared. Gotta make a tedious boss fight with COUNTER HERE moments or else it starts looping while you do whifflebat damage.

I'd rather just have a facelifted clon then weird stuff that Mercury Steam insists on jamming into every franchise they touch.

There are no hidden QTEs in this game. If you're referring to the melee counter, it's entirely optional in every fight. Proof is me who didn't even know it can be used in certain boss fights. Also, you say you've played Super Metroid, etc. But have you really? You could throw the same claims at its bosses. It's been too long since I've played Fusion and Zero Mission to remember boss specifics but I bet it applies there too. Hell, like I said, Metroid 2 is the origin of "God of War boss" if you wanna call it that.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
I only asked you which games you played because these bosses didn't feel out of place from the series at all, and i think that you have some weird grudge with mercury steam too.
There's a reason I specified 2d Metroid.

Yes. I dislike the elements they add to the games they work on. They did Castlevania no favors either.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
There are no hidden QTEs in this game. If you're referring to the melee counter, it's entirely optional in every fight. Proof is me who didn't even know it can be used in certain boss fights. Also, you say you've played Super Metroid, etc. But have you really? You could throw the same claims at its bosses. It's been too long since I've played Fusion and Zero Mission to remember boss specifics but I bet it applies there too. Hell, like I said, Metroid 2 is the origin of "God of War boss" if you wanna call it that.
Don't spoiler things that aren't spoilers.

And you're completely wrong about the bosses.

None of the new ideas in this game were theirs. This was all Sakamoto.
He's bad at this then and shouldn't be allowed near Metroid again.
 
Nintendo doesn't understand character development, storyline, or atmosphere. These are alien concepts to them. Their core studios focus on puzzles, strategy, and platformers. While their western branches and other affiliates deliver everything else.
 

aadiboy

Member
So the puzzle bosses are from the Prime games? I gotta admit, I didn't really like them. Having to fight a boss multiple times just to figure out each stage of the battle was really annoying. I prefer more straight up action fights like in the previous 2d games.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
So we have one guy on a crusade against Sakamoto, who should change his avatar to "Metroid is dead" again already and one who is on a crusade against Mercury Steam.

Maybe team up for the ultimate complain-team.

Like I said, the Dodge Roll, a similar mechanic was in Other M. This is simply transitioning it to 2D. In concept, it's the same thing.

The dodge roll was spammable as hell and instantly charged up your beam. It was completely busted. Nothing of that applies to the melee counter.
 

Surfside

Banned
Nintendo doesn't understand character development, storyline, or atmosphere. These are alien concepts to them. Their core studios focus on puzzles, strategy, and platformers. While their western branches and other affiliates deliver everything else.


I found Zeldas character well developed, in Breath of the Wild. So there is certainly hope, that they will improve further.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
so the 2d games shouldn't ever take anything from the 3d ones?

Not when they result in plodding boring and tedious
boss fights
.

So we have one guy on a crusade against Sakamoto, who should change his avatar to "Metroid is dead" again already and one who is on a crusade against Mercury Steam.
Well, after Other M I can't see why anyone would want him writing a story again. Dude's super tone deaf to his own series.

Mercury Steam did a lot off stuff right. The art was neat. Sound was fine except for that out of place tune that pops up when a specific boss appears that completely detonates the atmosphere. The game mostly plays ok. (Except for the analog making the ball entry/exit annoying in tight spots at times...) Just not the game mechanics they came up with on their own. Didn't want to scale a golem in Castlevania with QTE nonsense, didn't want to scale a boss with QTE nonsense in a 2d Metroid either.

Dunno if thinking a game's a 7/10 is proof of a hefty grudge, but spin your narrative however you like.
 

KingBroly

Banned
So we have one guy on a crusade against Sakamoto, who should change his avatar to "Metroid is dead" again already and one who is on a crusade against Mercury Steam.

Maybe team up for the ultimate complain-team.



The dodge roll was spammable as hell and instantly charged up your beam. It was completely busted. Nothing of that applies to the melee counter.

I said in concept, not execution. In execution, Samus is back to being a one-handed wonder. But okay.


I'm not so much anti-Sakamoto as I am anti-Nintendo in regards to Metroid. The same guy who thought Federation Force is a good idea is heading up Prime 4 and I'd be damned if I didn't have major concerns about that as well, simply because he keeps implementing ideas into the series that don't need it, like this stupid fixation on Sylux which will undoubtedly be the backdrop of Prime 4. For me, I feel like Nintendo has lost what made Metroid what it was, and they have no idea how to get it back.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
well it's ok if you didn't like, just don't be so abrasive. I quite liked the
bosses
in the game.

I don't like elements that have to change the game's rules to operate within a game. Why does a non spinning gear hurt Samus? Why does an iron railing hurt her? Oh, to force you into a dumb timing "puzzle" that you could've otherwise just jumped over. Oh, you're inside? That's nice. Better not make a single mistake or else you'll get instantly pooped out.

Oh and you'll lose 10 minutes dodging the canned sequence you must endure just to try it again.

If you don't melee counter at certain times in other fights... Guess how many missiles it takes to kill *one* without playing QTE? Roughly 75! That's not great design IMO. That's pointlessly tedious guess the gimmick wonkery.
 
I think the problem for me, in terms of the
Diggernaut (and Queen Metroid, to a lesser degree)
is that the encounter is designed so that you will most likely lose on your first attempt or two. Like, its attacks just fill up too much screen space and do too much damage, such that you're probably not going to avoid them the first few times you see them, and there is very little leeway because they'll kill you in a couple of hits. That's not fun; that's bullshit.
 
Top Bottom