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MGS2 Gaming's Greatest Con Job [1up:Parish]

I thought this was a thread about the wistful remembrance of MGS2. Instead I'm seeing discussion about some weirdo not owning a PS2.
 
AbsoluteZero said:
I'd rather finish my goal of collecting all of the US-released Dreamcast games. There's exactly 250, and considering I've got 65, that's like a quarter of the way there and fairly doable.
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Whatever floats your boat. I'd rather have played what I consider to be the best games from all platforms, than ALL the games from one platform. Why let platform bias you into playing B and C-tier games, when there's a low cost of entry to a console with A-tier games you haven't experienced? I saw a PS2 at a thrift store for $15 the other day...

Also the whole concept of completionism.... made a lot of sense to me a few years ago. Now I'm happy I've rid myself of it. Life is short. Amassing a shelf of games you won't play because it says "Dreamcast" on the box will eventually be depressing... mark my words.....
 
AbsoluteZero said:
Probably.

Want to have your mind blown even more?

I've never owned a Sony console.

gasp.jpg
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First Metal Gear I ever played was MGS2 on Xbox.
 
Kojima got us, guys. He got us good.

I find it crazy that the GT top 100 trailers feature never gave the MGS2 reveal proper recognition. As I recall, that single trailer more or less won the console wars for Sony and set the stage for the next 10 years.
 
I always felt raidens portion should have happened first. I mean colonel even teaches u the basic control like hanging off the ledge and other stuff when u start as raiden even though u've already done plenty and know the control in and out having played as snake.

I always felt raidens stage was to happen first and snake portion would be something u get to play later as flashback. And Kojima changed it later or last minute.
 
BocoDragon said:
I bought my own console (SNES) when I was 8 years old in 1992 haha. After that it was like, who cares what my parents think? But maybe asian parents would have put a stop to it anyway.

Still.... for me the PS1 and PS2 were THE main console, and the others being the secondary ones. But of course that's just my perspective.
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haha, nintendo has always been my main console, mainly because I tend to like picking a console up at launch, and there is always the guarantee of quality games from nintendo ;)
 
Oh man, trip down memory lane. I just remembered all the stuff about how they originally planned calling it MGSIII.

Like, you can see it in these early videos that weren't publicly released until the Document:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUxGskoKqYE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqKwoq4BR5Q&feature=related

hayejin said:
I always felt raidens portion should have happened first. I mean colonel even teaches u the basic control like hanging off the ledge and other stuff when u start as raiden even though u've already done plenty and know the control in and out having played as snake.

I always felt raidens stage was to happen first and snake portion would be something u get to play later as flashback. And Kojima changed it later or last minute.
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I think that was an option in the European version. It would ask you a question at the beginning, and depending on your answer it would play the Big Shell first and then let you play the Tanker afterwards.
 
This reminds me of the better-executed essay that one guy did on MGS2. His analysis was great. About how Kojima wanted the player to identify directly with Raiden as an observer in the story and all that.

A great read if you can find it.
 
chickdigger802 said:
haha, nintendo has always been my main console, mainly because I tend to like picking a console up at launch, and there is always the guarantee of quality games from nintendo ;)
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NES and SNES were my main consoles, no doubt.

You could easily tell where people's gaming priorities were by whether they picked PS1 or N64.

I always felt that the PS1 (and later PS2) was the true successor to NES+SNES, based on third party output. But if you really were into the Nintendo-made titles specifically, obviously you'd move to N64. Pity on those who didn't get the memo about Capcom, Squaresoft, Enix, Konami mostly moving to PlayStation....

IMO, N64, Cube and Wii were all must-owns... as a second console. The bulk of greats are on the other consoles...... Couldn't ever live with those consoles alone. You simply miss too much. You'd be in a cocoon.
 
I've played the game at least a dozen times, but I still can't fully wrap my head around everything that happens. It hurts if I try. It's fucking nuts, but I wouldn't want it any other way. I'm actually playing it right now, and it hasn't aged a bit. One of the best games ever.
 
even though there were a lot of screaming manbabies at the thought of not being able to play as snake, it ended up being the best depiction of the character.

love when the president is like, "what, you think this country is some kind of democracy? :lol"

love the quadruple plot twists

love revolver ocelot

love it
 
Actually biggest problem with MGS 2 and rest of the series was introduction of tranquilizer gun. It made the game too easy. In MGS 1 you had to play stealth bc most guns made sound and alerted the enemies but since 2 you can just enter a room and tranquilize enemies from distance and then just run towards exit.

Sure you don't have to use it if you don't want to but whole tranquilizer thing made the stealth too easy for the series.
 
Also let me just say how much I love Liquid's arm being able to take over Ocelot's body.

It is madness but it is brilliant madness.

Retconning that was a huge mistake.

So was MGS4
 
This game encompasses what is great about Japanese developed video games. It's both awesome and cheesy at the same time. As much as I hate certain aspects, other aspects are some of the greatest things I've experienced in a video game.
 
Raiden was likeable and endearing in a way.

"Did you say nerd?”

Using the katana to take out the Arsenal Gear Tenchu/Solidus and Rays was more impressive than anything the Snakes did. The transformation in MGS4 into a walking angst was unnecessary, at the end of MGS2 Raiden just decided to be his own man, stand out from the plan to recreate Solid Snake, and in the sequel he's just Greyfox 2.0. Slowing down a battleship, taking on FROGS with a sword in his mouth, the vamp scene with the self-mutilation... Raiden was less of a character, more of a tool for 'cool' cut-scenes.


"It even rained the day I was born!"
 
soultron said:
This reminds me of the better-executed essay that one guy did on MGS2. His analysis was great. About how Kojima wanted the player to identify directly with Raiden as an observer in the story and all that.

A great read if you can find it.
Click to expand...

The one connection made there, that Parish builds all the evidence for yet never says in this article, is the parallel between Raiden and the player, both duped by manipulation, yet still led into "completing the mission", even when the deception is laid bare. All the plot shenanigans serve as a kind of glue binding character and player motivation together, even as everything breaks down.

I wasn't fortunate enough to experience MGS2 at launch, but I have a huge amount of respect for it for attempting something that bold.
 
Snuggler said:
I've played the game at least a dozen times, but I still can't fully wrap my head around everything that happens. It hurts if I try. It's fucking nuts, but I wouldn't want it any other way. I'm actually playing it right now, and it hasn't aged a bit. One of the best games ever.
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As much as I want to play MGS2 again, I feel that -- even at the ripe age of 23 -- I can't be bothered to sit through the mindfuckery again.

It's a shame that MGS careened of the rails with MGS4. I feel we'll never quite have as celebrated of a series ever again in gaming. MGS2 was a huge risk that will never be rolled by any other developer again.

You couldn't repeat the conditions when you think about it; sequel to the smash-hit revival of a series on a new console with expectations at an all-time high. The flow of information was restricted by the internet being in its infancy. It was an amazing event to be a part of, in the end.

I'm glad Kojima tried to say something with each of the MGS games. His overlying motifs and themes are great even if they get lost in his confusing narrative soups.
 
It's funny to hear people mention 2001 as the internet being in its infancy.... To me it was the end of the golden age of the internet... where personal sites gave way to ugly corporate sites. It was also post Napster, etc.

But yes it was before Youtube trailers, twitter, etc......

The message board dynamic hasn't changed much.
 
sonicmj1 said:
The one connection made there, that Parish builds all the evidence for yet never says in this article, is the parallel between Raiden and the player, both duped by manipulation, yet still led into "completing the mission", even when the deception is laid bare. All the plot shenanigans serve as a kind of glue binding character and player motivation together, even as everything breaks down.

I wasn't fortunate enough to experience MGS2 at launch, but I have a huge amount of respect for it for attempting something that bold.
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Breaking the fourth, fifth, and sixth walls was fucking amazing.

You were playing Raiden, which was a big allusion to the player controlling Snake in MGS1, this time in a recreation of Shadow Moses. It was a formulaic rehash with a distinct narrative purpose.

Even trying to formulate that thought into a sentence breaks my mind.
 
King of the Potato People said:
Raiden was likeable and endearing in a way.

"Did you say nerd?”

Using the katana to take out the Arsenal Gear Tenchu/Solidus and Rays was more impressive than anything the Snakes did. The transformation in MGS4 into a walking angst was unnecessary, at the end of MGS2 Raiden just decided to be his own man, stand out from the plan to recreate Solid Snake, and in the sequel he's just Greyfox 2.0. Slowing down a battleship, taking on FROGS with a sword in his mouth, the vamp scene with the self-mutilation... Raiden was less of a character, more of a tool for 'cool' cut-scenes.


"It even rained the day I was born!"
Click to expand...
Thank you for saying this. This is eaxctly my problem with the way he is in four.

But not just him, Snake to. Snake in two is such a complete character. He is resolved, optimistic, and just the man. He knows what he has to do in life, what his mission is. His character arc is complete. In four we have a very defeated and somewhat sad Snake and I don't know why. Because Kojima felt we needed a new unnecessary character arc for him? And I don't buy the excuse it's because he's old and dying. The Snake I saw in two would have just been like "whatever, this is the hand I've been dealt and I must do the best I can".
 
AbsoluteZero said:
I bought a Dreamcast in November 2000. They stopped production a few months later, so I bought Dreamcast games throughout 2003/2004 (Almost 65 in total so far.) and just moved over to the PC when Dreamcast games became scarce at retail.

Bought the DS in 2005, PSP in 2006, Wii in 2007, and Xbox 360 in 2008.

Never saw a need for a PSX, PS2, or PS3 at any time in there.

But this is getting way off topic here.
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So what you're saying is that you do own a Sony Console. You can play MGS1 on PSP....and MGS5
 
chickdigger802 said:
Cuz you kinda can see what's going on in MGS2 vs Rising.
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Clean character models, doesn't look like grimy Unreal nastiness.

BocoDragon said:
It's funny to hear people mention 2001 as the internet being in its infancy.... To me it was the end of the golden age of the internet...
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It was certainly fun with.

Two fondest memories were Oink and then manually downloading things off of servers that weren't encrypted on the old old board formats.
Nothing was secure back in the day.

King of the Potato People said:
Raiden was likeable and endearing in a way.
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He was.

He was a bit of a wuss too but that mirrors how the player would react in a real war/combat situation. There's an arc to him too and towards the end you feel pretty badass.
 
Goddammit I always get confused when I see BocoDragon and soultron in the same thread. Two Canadian GAFfers with Parappa avatars.
 
BocoDragon said:
It's funny to hear people mention 2001 as the internet being in its infancy.... To me it was the end of the golden age of the internet... where personal sites gave way to ugly corporate sites. It was also post Napster, etc.

But yes it was before Youtube trailers, twitter, etc......

The message board dynamic hasn't changed much.
Click to expand...

I'm happy that only the content discussed on message boards has changed. The actual shell that wraps around the content is a concrete reminder of where we all started discussing out passion for this medium, if you ask me.

I agree on that being the golden age, but I think that's synonymous with being in its infancy, especially relative to what the internet has become now. It's slowly becoming more and more tamed, meticulously researched, and monetised space.

One of my least favourite aspects of the internet, especially in relation to video games, is that we -- as a collective -- have such an urge to spoil ourselves and fill in every single unknown by hounding and prodding into every source we can. Nothing remains a surprise these days because someone has the right connections to find information and then it spreads like wildfire. I purposely avoid certain threads on GAF these days because I don't want to find out what is leaked about ____ I want it to be a surprise. I think we still had these compulsions back in 2001, but we just didn't have the means with which to satisfy these desires.

/derail


Firestorm said:
Goddammit I always get confused when I see BocoDragon and soultron in the same thread. Two Canadian GAFfers with Parappa avatars.
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And then we quote eachother to mess with you even further.
 
Rahxephon91 said:
Thank you for saying this. This is eaxctly my problem with the way he is in four.

But not just him, Snake to. Snake in two is such a complete character. He is resolved, optimistic, and just the man. He knows what he has to do in life, what his mission is. His character arc is complete. In four we have a very defeated and somewhat sad Snake and I don't know why. Because Kojima felt we needed a new unnecessary character arc for him? And I don't buy the excuse it's because he's old and dying. The Snake I saw in two would have just been like "whatever, this is the hand I've been dealt and I must do the best I can".
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You better not pick up MG Raiden: Advent Children then.
 
BladeoftheImmortal said:
So what you're saying is that you do own a Sony Console. You can play MGS1 on PSP....and MGS5
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No, that's a Sony Portable.

I do own Metal Gear Solid. I played it back in 2001 on my Dreamcast via the Bleemcast disc Gamestop used to carry.

I do intend to pick up Peace Walker one of the these days, as I've mentioned in this thread.
 
chickdigger802 said:
You better not pick up MG Raiden: Advent Children then.
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Well I don't really care about the MGS story anymore so whatever is going on in Rising story wise does not interests me.

But I like over the top Japanese action games and Platinum has shown they know how to do those. And that's why I'm interested in Rising.

But actually from the trailer the brief lines imply a more fun and over the top Raiden then the angsty one from 4.
 
AbsoluteZero said:
No, that's a Sony Portable.

I do own Metal Gear Solid. I played it back in 2001 on my Dreamcast via the Bleemcast disc Gamestop used to carry.

I do intend to pick up Peace Walker one of the these days, as I've mentioned in this thread.
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Uh, if you have a 360 couldn't you just get the collection? 40 bucks now for Metal Gear, Metal Gear 2, Metal Gear Solid 2, Metal Gear Solid 3, and Peace Walker.
 
I think the article does a good job describing some of the resentment pre-MGS2 Metal Gear fans experienced at that initial release period. It certainly took a couple of years and a few playthroughs for me to finally come to terms with it and “appreciate” it I guess. It's the first Metal Gear game that didn't speak to me so to speak for reasons I'll explain later.

I come from a drastically different frame of reference for Metal Gear summed up in what is all of but one graph on the first page.

While the stop and cover thing still existing in 87 is straight up hyperbole, even being a 9-year-old at the time, the Cold War and the fear of nuclear weapons was ever present as a child. Even with the rudimentary story telling, a game actually talking about nukes was cool at that time. Not to mention the Big Boss double cross was the first time I experienced the unreliable narrator in games. For those that loved Bioshock, Metal Gear did it long before. Plus the game was essentially Zelda with automatic firearms, remote control missles and key cards. You have to see the print ad from the 80s with all the gear you could get in the game to get why Metal Gear was awesome.

I was a freshman in college when MGS1 came out. Imagine learning one of your favorite games as a child was getting a full next gen, in those days, update. As someone interested in history and world politics at the time, especially the end of the cold war, I was far more enamored with the what do cold war soldiers do when the cold war is over theme than the genes stuff.

Ironically, the first time I played MG2:Solid Snake was in college. This was after I had played the MGS2 demo disc about 100 times. As old as the game was it was still salient. It was talking about the world's depency on oil at a time when the war drums were beating for the Iraq invasion. I learned Gray Fox's back story. Big Boss's use of child soldiers that plays into Raiden's backstory.

MGS2's premise was just too forward thinking for me. I'm an old fuck gaming-wise. I didn't have internet until I was in college. I didn't even know what a meme was until years after MGS2. When I read ancient internet forums talking about Snake being replaced by this guy called Raiden, I thought they were lying. I didn't realize the world had moved on. While I ate up the mother Russia Ocelot shit, I didn't grasp the whole controlling information thing. I was still checking out physical books from the library back then.
Ironically, as bat shit insane as MGS2's plot was and the Otacon incest side story, in retrospect the plot is, sadly, more coherent than MGS4. Kojima had a great chance with the whole PMC issue but it got lost in nanomachines and a non-existent Fox Die threat. That's why I like MGS3 the best. Keep it simple.
 
AbsoluteZero said:
No, that's a Sony Portable.

I do own Metal Gear Solid. I played it back in 2001 on my Dreamcast via the Bleemcast disc Gamestop used to carry.

I do intend to pick up Peace Walker one of the these days, as I've mentioned in this thread.
Click to expand...

Gangster. I've dreamt of playing it this way.

Man, this thread makes me want to get MGSHDC.
 
soultron said:
I'm happy that only the content discussed on message boards has changed. The actual shell that wraps around the content is a concrete reminder of where we all started discussing out passion for this medium, if you ask me.

I agree on that being the golden age, but I think that's synonymous with being in its infancy, especially relative to what the internet has become now. It's slowly becoming more and more tamed, meticulously researched, and monetised space.

One of my least favourite aspects of the internet, especially in relation to video games, is that we -- as a collective -- have such an urge to spoil ourselves and fill in every single unknown by hounding and prodding into every source we can. Nothing remains a surprise these days because someone has the right connections to find information and then it spreads like wildfire. I purposely avoid certain threads on GAF these days because I don't want to find out what is leaked about ____ I want it to be a surprise. I think we still had these compulsions back in 2001, but we just didn't have the means with which to satisfy these desires.

/derail
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We have more avenues to spoil ourselves now, but I'm not sure that I agree that it's actually more spoiler-heavy today. You could spoil yourself silly on the internet long before 2001. I had Aeris being killed spoiled for me on the internet in mid-1997. I have no doubt that, if I had poked my head onto the internet the day MGS2 came out, I could have been smacked in the head with the Raiden reveal. That's why they chose to release MGS2 in North America, the biggest fanbase for MGS1, first.

In fact, now I probably wouldn't be spoiled so easily. It's less of a spoiler-heavy wild west out there. GAF makes damn sure that all spoilers are marked, and no one on my twitter feed seems to be a spoiling asshole....

Now.... pre-internet entirely. That was a spoiler-free golden age.

I thought the early 2000s were a regression in the internet experience. The corporate sites were a regression compared to the creative fan sites of the late 90s... but the late 2000s were awesome. With web 2.0 and all that, even corporate sites looked nice, as did independent blogs. I LOVE being able to watch HD trailers, live streams from E3 conferences, live chats with all my GAF peeps during live events, etc.




soultron said:
And then we quote eachother to mess with you even further.
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Lol.. that's a good point BocoDragon.
 
Tomasooie said:
Uh, if you have a 360 couldn't you just get the collection? 40 bucks now for Metal Gear, Metal Gear 2, Metal Gear Solid 2, Metal Gear Solid 3, and Peace Walker.
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Possibly, but I plan on playing MGS3 on my 3DS and and Peace Walker on my PSP, so I'd be spending $40 on just MGS2, which is supposedly the weakest in the series?
 
AbsoluteZero said:
Possibly, but I plan on playing MGS3 on my 3DS and and Peace Walker on my PSP, so I'd be spending $40 on just MGS2, which is supposedly the weakest in the series?
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The case could easily be made that the HD version of MGS3 is better than the 3DS one, and the HD version of PW is better than the PSP one.

I'd probably go with that collection.....

Also MGS2 is amazing in its own way.. just amazing. Kind of hard to say it's "weak" except in relative terms.
 
That was a really good read. Thanks for sharing. I was so fed up with the game after I beat it, I quickly traded it in and never went back. Will replay it for the first time soon thanks to MGSHD.
 
soultron said:
Having not played Peace Walker, it's seeming like a possibility. Are the controls for PW decent on console though?
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Controls are much like MGS4 (there are two other alternate layouts I haven't tried though), probably the best MGS gamepad set up yet.
 
BocoDragon said:
The case could easily be made that the HD version of MGS3 is better than the 3DS one, and the HD version of PW is better than the PSP one.

I'd probably go with that collection.....

Also MGS2 is amazing in its own way.. just amazing. Kind of hard to say it's "weak" except in relative terms.
Click to expand...

While both of those ports are "better" in terms of graphics, I'm also tethered to a TV, something that MGS3D and PWPSP allow me to break away from.

soultron said:
Gangster. I've dreamt of playing it this way.
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A nice little collectible, if anything.

9wmxB.jpg
 
MGS 2 is one of the only times where you can tell haters "you just don't get it" and be justified in doing so.

Parish is reeaaaallly lttp on this one as many said; in fact, I bet he was one of those hating on the game when it came out.

When Raiden looks at his dog tag and my name is on their....

"Someone you know??"

That right there is multiple mind fucks all rolled into one, and worth 1000 "Would you kindly" moments.
 
AbsoluteZero said:
While both of those ports are "better" in terms of graphics, I'm also tethered to a TV, something that MGS3D and PWPSP allow me to break away from.
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That's true... But I'm not sure that I'd want to play MGS-style games in any kind of mobile setting. It would be awful on a train or bus. Still, depending on your lifestyle, maybe the TV is not a great place to be tied to. For me it's in the one place I'd probably play a handheld MGS anyway.
 
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