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[BocoDragon]

Moore's movies are very deceptively created. Scenes are staged and edited to prove the point Moore goes into it to prove. Even more so than the average documentary, they present a skewed version of the truth. I don't watch them anymore.

And as a pundit... he's a halfwit democratic cheerleader, not a thoughtful liberal theorist. The best I'll give him is that he's a familiar presence and I don't mind when he shows up on Bill Maher.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

I don't know...

Would a world history run by women have wreaked as much war and pain as men? I don't think it would...

 

[Langdon Alger]

Wow. Really dumb tweet by Moore.

 

[TalkingToast]

I don't know...

Would a world history run by women have wreaked as much war and pain as men? I don't think it would...

Why not ? What makes you think that ?

I think Jessica Ellis made some really great points, and I totally agree with her. I think the idea that women are somehow less likely to create "war and pain" is pretty sexist and has no basis in reality.

 

[kavanf1]

Yup.

>"I think A."
>> "Actually, B is true."

Internet: "Damn, the first dude got ethered!"

Moore's tweet was dumb and I'm happy that he was called out on it. It's how you learn. It's discussion, discourse, debate. Not ever refutation is a mic drop at a rap battle.

This in a nutshell is why Twitter is terrible for any kind of discussion.

 

[Derwind]

I don't know...

Would a world history run by women have wreaked as much war and pain as men? I don't think it would...

If women are perfect, would an act of genocide be especially egregious if done at the hands of women?

Let's find out!

 

[Relativ9]

Ethered? Woke? ...when did I loose touch? When did I grow old? It seemed like only yesterday when I learned what rekt meant, I need time guys...I need guidance.

On topic: I still remember seeing Michael Moore confront the head of the NRA with the picture of a dead little girl who was the victim of a gun crime. He's a manipulative hack who uses emotions, "clever" editing and one sided investigations to "prove" his points. And I say that as a man who supports stricter gun regulation.

 

[Diablos]

Michael Moore is someone I've regarded to be a dummy for quite some time now but it's just amazing that this guy used to be a progressive champion to so many people.

 

[Bishop89]

No woman has ever farted.

i can confirm this is a lie

 

[uncelestial]

Honestly, cherrypicking "bad women" to try to defeat the statement that women are less violent than men is the kind of shit that gets #notallmen as a sarcastic response when done to defeat statements about men. Over 80% of violent crime is perpetrated by men in this country, over 90% of the murders are by men, and for just general arrests - that's 73% men. He even says in the exact next tweet, it's "not that women can't [do these horrible things], they just usually don't." Which is true -- they are the perpetrator a fraction of the time.

Whether it's nature or nurture, it is actually completely open for discussion as to why men act demonstrably more aggressively and violently and get caught breaking the law significantly more often than women. There are multiple studies on the subject coming from evolutionary biologists and sociobiologists. Pretending that it's sexist to acknowledge this publicly in an admiring way is the weirdest form of "feminism" I've seen in awhile.

2011 arrest data from the FBI:[48]
Males constituted 98.0% of those arrested for forcible rape[48]
Males constituted 89.0% of those arrested for robbery[48]
Males constituted 85.0% of those arrested for burglary[48]
Males constituted 83.0% of those arrested for arson.[48]
Males constituted 81.5% of those arrested for motor-vehicle theft.[48]
Males constituted 81.7% of those arrested for stolen property.[48]
Males constituted 81.7% of those arrested for vandalism.[48]
Males constituted 79.7% of those arrested for offenses against family and children.[48]
Males constituted 77.8% of those arrested for aggravated assault[48]
Males constituted 58.7% of those arrested for fraud.[48]
Males constituted 57.3% of those arrested for larceny-theft.[48]
Males constituted 51.3% of those arrested for embezzlement.[48]

He should have modified his tweet about women's part in mankind's greatest horrors from "no women participated" to "only a small fraction of the active participants were women." I agree that's sloppy and that's the kind of hyperbole that turns me off of Moore. But that's about the worst I can say. I'm no fan of his, really - we have much smarter champions of liberal ideology these days. But it's not like there was nothing backing up what he was saying.

 

[Maledict]

Yep, I was going to say the same thing. Every analysis of the criminal justice system shows the same thing - men are far, far more likely to be offenders than women, and when women are offenders over 80% of them are also victims of dv, sexual assault or childhood abuse. It's so lopsided that the criminal justice system in general doesn't work for women - the UK's Corsten report identified that for all intents and purposes the prison system was built entirely for men, because they are far more likely to be offenders.

Not saying women can't be evil, or criminals, but there is a clear difference between men and women in terms of violence and crime.

 

[antonz]

Yep, I was going to say the same thing. Every analysis of the criminal justice system shows the same thing - men are far, far more likely to be offenders than women, and when women are offenders over 80% of them are also victims of dv, sexual assault or childhood abuse. It's so lopsided that the criminal justice system in general doesn't work for women - the UK's Corsten report identified that for all intents and purposes the prison system was built entirely for men, because they are far more likely to be offenders.

Not saying women can't be evil, or criminals, but there is a clear difference between men and women in terms of violence and crime.

Society has been built upon thousands of years of women put in their places while men are left to their own designs as long as they submitted to the Stronger men who were the rulers.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I don't know...

Would a world history run by women have wreaked as much war and pain as men? I don't think it would...

Not all women are delicate angels, lol.

 

[Monocle]

Rekt tbh.

 

[neorej]

 

[The Incarnation]

Ethered? Woke? ...when did I loose touch? When did I grow old? It seemed like only yesterday when I learned what rekt meant, I need time guys...I need guidance.

On topic: I still remember seeing Michael Moore confront the head of the NRA with the picture of a dead little girl who was the victim of a gun crime. He's a manipulative hack who uses emotions, "clever" editing and one sided investigations to "prove" his points. And I say that as a man who supports stricter gun regulation.

Just like every human being then.

 

[BocoDragon]

Just like every human being then.

I would consider him beyond the typical level of acceptable truth-bending in this area. His movies are very cynically created to create a skewed view of the truth.

Michael Moore = Dinesh D'Souza. Partisan liars in film, whether left or right.

 

[karasu]

That response annoyed the shit out of me.

 

[Zelenogorsk]

I'm surpised that blob of idiocy hasn't had a heart attack yet.

All the Bernie fanatics I know love to post his dumb "5 reasons why Trump will win" all the time.

 

[SpaceWolf]

That response annoyed the shit out of me.

Why?

 

[Sapiens]

I don't know...

Would a world history run by women have wreaked as much war and pain as men? I don't think it would...

In all seriousness, why not? Women are just as capable as men of cruelty.

Also Michael Moore is an idiot. He's also an asshole. He's all about making a cheap point.

He's awesome when you're 19 though.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Honestly, cherrypicking "bad women" to try to defeat the statement that women are less violent than men is the kind of shit that gets #notallmen as a sarcastic response when done to defeat statements about men. Over 80% of violent crime is perpetrated by men in this country, over 90% of the murders are by men, and for just general arrests - that's 73% men. He even says in the exact next tweet, it's "not that women can't [do these horrible things], they just usually don't." Which is true -- they are the perpetrator a fraction of the time.

Whether it's nature or nurture, it is actually completely open for discussion as to why men act demonstrably more aggressively and violently and get caught breaking the law significantly more often than women. There are multiple studies on the subject coming from evolutionary biologists and sociobiologists. Pretending that it's sexist to acknowledge this publicly in an admiring way is the weirdest form of "feminism" I've seen in awhile.




He should have modified his tweet about women's part in mankind's greatest horrors from "no women participated" to "only a small fraction of the active participants were women." I agree that's sloppy and that's the kind of hyperbole that turns me off of Moore. But that's about the worst I can say. I'm no fan of his, really - we have much smarter champions of liberal ideology these days. But it's not like there was nothing backing up what he was saying.

So essentially... you are arguing a completely different point than Michael Moore

 

[Maledict]

In all seriousness, why not? Women are just as capable as men of cruelty.

On aggregate, and based on every evidence we have across multiple countries and hundreds of years - no they aren't.

Yes, there are women who quite happily match the worse of men in terms of cruelty and evil. No question about it. But on average, men are far, far, far more likely to be violent offenders, and of those female violent offenders over 80% of them in the UK are at the same time victims of abuse.

Taken at a population health level and there's no question that men are a far more violent grouping.

 

[UncleSporky]

So essentially... you are arguing a completely different point than Michael Moore

Did you not read the post you quoted?

He even says in the exact next tweet, it's "not that women can't [do these horrible things], they just usually don't." Which is true -- they are the perpetrator a fraction of the time.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Did you not read the post you quoted?

I did, and if you look at the time stamp, it looks like he didn't write that second post until after being called out by a bunch of people, so he dialed it back, or as is a popular saying here, moved goalposts.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Whether it's nature or nurture, it is actually completely open for discussion as to why men act demonstrably more aggressively and violently and get caught breaking the law significantly more often than women. There are multiple studies on the subject coming from evolutionary biologists and sociobiologists. Pretending that it's sexist to acknowledge this publicly in an admiring way is the weirdest form of "feminism" I've seen in awhile.




He should have modified his tweet about women's part in mankind's greatest horrors from "no women participated" to "only a small fraction of the active participants were women." I agree that's sloppy and that's the kind of hyperbole that turns me off of Moore. But that's about the worst I can say. I'm no fan of his, really - we have much smarter champions of liberal ideology these days. But it's not like there was nothing backing up what he was saying.

And you could change the labels here and make a convincing argument that "well, black guys are the biggest threat here. Dunno if it's nature or nurture..."

Spoiler: it's nurture.

 

[Madness]

I don't know...

Would a world history run by women have wreaked as much war and pain as men? I don't think it would...

Why not? They have never been in a position to find out if they could. To suggest women are by virtue good and men evil is absurd. Women can be murderers, serial killers, abusers, hateful just like the rest of us. Indira Gandhi as prime minister of India did things like declare state of emergencies and jail opposition, forced sterilization of many people, initiated a state level campaign against Sikhs that led to her assassination and a small genocide against Sikhs. Throughout history, there people like "Bloody" Queen Mary I of England, etc.

Women are not as aggressive as men, nor as violent generally, but to suggest they couldn't invent weapons of mass destruction by way of science, or be in positions of power to do things that hurt others is false.

 

[kavanf1]

If women ruled the world there would be no more wars between countries. They'd continue to trade and

Spoiler

pretend

everything would be fine

Spoiler

but secretly they'd be in a huff

with each other

Spoiler

and bitch about each other behind their backs about how two faced those other countries are.

I don't feel like this needs to be said but since it's Neogaf:

Spoiler

/s

 

[Zakalwe]

Everything she says sounds right except for "Being ethically good is no easier for us than it is for men"

I mean...if that were the case wouldn't there be way more women in jail?

Not every unethical thing leads to jail.

 

[Henkka]

And you could change the labels here and make a convincing argument that "well, black guys are the biggest threat here. Dunno if it's nature or nurture..."

Spoiler: it's nurture.

Eh, I'd definitely say there's a biological reason for males being more violent than females. It's why rams have those big ass horns. As the YT comment section opines:

pussy is the major reason why fight happens

Males are more biologically wired to compete, imo.

 

[God Dayumm]

When pussy-pedestaling goes wrong, lol

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Am I a horrible person for being completely distracted by the misspelling of oppression

 

[ElectricThunder]

Folks would probably do well to couch expectations on this in the fact that, as is often the case most times something like this happens with Moore, it is directly coming off of a starter point he was trying to flail at on Real Time With Bill Maher just recently when he did the panel.

He's absolutely shook and terrified that Trump might well win, so he's throwing everything out there he can think of in a panic regardless of it being a good, or even marginally correct, idea to do so.

 

[Derwind]

I feel like this thread is at risk of falling into a tangent of hypotheticals.

Let's just all agree, being patronizing is not a good look.

 

[televator]

Ayn Rand was one of the shittiest humans to ever live and her contribution to the world continues to haunt us. That alone serves as good daily reminder to me that women can be total fucking assholes too.

 

[rambis]

"I can't be bothered to backup or source my arguments, or to put effort into my posts, but you damn well better put in the time and effort to provide links to something I want to see because reasons!"

I didn't want to continue the conversation with that poster and ignored him/her. Why is this bothering you?

So essentially... you are arguing a completely different point than Michael Moore

No, Again this is your interpretation of what Moore said which isn't accurate

Did you not read the post you quoted?

I said the exact same thing a page ago. People take shit and run with it. Its so fucking annoying.

 

[Oemenia]

Awfully patronising of Moore.

 

[Aizen.S.Kennedy]

Umm to the ppl saying women get arrested less then men so of course they must commit less crime then man.. did u stop to think it's maybe because women tend to be able to get away with more legally. Sexism in society skews towards the "women are children and are just being crazy or made a mistake it's ok" mindset. All the way from getting off on a speeding ticket( which as a black dude I dont even understand the concept of lol) to detectives ruling out women as the suspect in murders much quickly then men.
I've seen women get in public fights often an ppl generally don't call the cops or if they do no one gets arrested. Online when you see a women attack someone rather it be a man or women the crowd is generally excited or shocked not scared and rushing to get them locked up. When a man steals from Walmart nobody mentions that he was just trying to feed his family etc etc. it's probably true that men commit more crimes on average but it's hard to just use arrest percentages as proof. The justice system is still a boys club and defending and protecting women is still a big part of that. If the neighbors hear shouting and fighting next door an call the police an a couple both accuse their spouse of domestic abuse 9 times out of ten it's the man being carted off to jail. An I'm not defending shitty men I'm saying cart BOTH of em off.

 

[kmfdmpig]

I would consider him beyond the typical level of acceptable truth-bending in this area. His movies are very cynically created to create a skewed view of the truth.

Michael Moore = Dinesh D'Souza. Partisan liars in film, whether left or right.

Yup. The fact that this shit is peddled as "documentaries" is alarming as well. Documentaries used to be much less biased, but now they have all these silly/hack manipulations which seem to work on a lot of people. The angle and music makes this person look sinister, so they must be lying. The music and angle make this person look sympathetic, so I feel sorry for them. I'd rather be informed than manipulated when watching a documentary, and people like Moore, Spurlock, and D'Souza are very much focused on manipulation.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Eh, I'd definitely say there's a biological reason for males being more violent than females. It's why rams have those big ass horns. As the YT comment section opines:



Males are more biologically wired to compete, imo.

That implies that humans are completely run by hardwired impulses. Are black men somehow more bestial and thus that's why they're more violent? Makes sense according to you, right?

Or have you considered that a lot of what we consider innate is based on internal and external reinforcement? If you're told men are supposed to be tough and brutish, and women are supposed to be quiet and calming, don't be surprised that people tend to fill the roles you give them.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I believe there were a number of female scientists involved at the top levels of the Manhattan Project too, although I guess they didn't technically "invent" the atomic bomb.

The founder of modern computing is (alongside Turing and others) Adm. Grace Hopper (creator of COBOL and a laundry list of other stuff).

So thank her every time your code won't compile

Spoiler

Fun fact: she invented the term debugging - literally killing bugs that got inside their giant computers

Why not ? What makes you think that ?

I think Jessica Ellis made some really great points, and I totally agree with her. I think the idea that women are somehow less likely to create "war and pain" is pretty sexist and has no basis in reality.

From a social science and biological perspective - women are naturally fit to be more rational, less emotional, and more organized leaders (stems from hunter gatherer societies where men hunted and did the grunt work and women kept shit running and kind of morphed into the women is the head of the house thing).

So there is merit to the notion we'd have fucked up less - but that doesn't mean women are saints.

I'd expect Hillary to drop a bomb on Putin's forehead before I would Trump or a lot of other men, to be honest.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Jessica Ellis has convinced me that women are assholes.

 

[Stormhammer]

So that's why women spend so much time in the female lavatories. They're releasing all their pent up gas throughout the day, and have farting parties.

so... farties?

 

[Brianimaniac]

Moore's movies are very deceptively created. Scenes are staged and edited to prove the point Moore goes into it to prove. Even more so than the average documentary, they present a skewed version of the truth. I don't watch them anymore.

No, not "even more than the average documentary". This is how documentaries are made. Unless you're watching something that is just 600 hours of raw source material, arranged chronologically by creation date, and hasn't been edited into a film at all, you're watching something where choices are being made at every stage, in service of a perspective. And even if you're watching 600 hours of raw source material, there's bias inherent in the topic being covered, the source material that was gathered, and the source material that wasn't gathered.

 

[3rdman]

Moore's movies are very deceptively created. Scenes are staged and edited to prove the point Moore goes into it to prove. Even more so than the average documentary, they present a skewed version of the truth. I don't watch them anymore.

And as a pundit... he's a halfwit democratic cheerleader, not a thoughtful liberal theorist. The best I'll give him is that he's a familiar presence and I don't mind when he shows up on Bill Maher.

I'm sorry...not picking on you but this is a pet peeve of mine as this comes up often. Documentaries are SUPPOSED to be biased. They are not meant to show both sides of an issue but rather sell a point of view...they are not news programs. Your complaint is akin to complaining about water being wet.

 

[rambis]

Umm to the ppl saying women get arrested less then men so of course they must commit less crime then man.. did u stop to think it's maybe because women tend to be able to get away with more legally. Sexism in society skews towards the "women are children and are just being crazy or made a mistake it's ok" mindset. All the way from getting off on a speeding ticket( which as a black dude I dont even understand the concept of lol) to detectives ruling out women as the suspect in murders much quickly then men.
I've seen women get in public fights often an ppl generally don't call the cops or if they do no one gets arrested. Online when you see a women attack someone rather it be a man or women the crowd is generally excited or shocked not scared and rushing to get them locked up. When a man steals from Walmart nobody mentions that he was just trying to feed his family etc etc. it's probably true that men commit more crimes on average but it's hard to just use arrest percentages as proof. The justice system is still a boys club and defending and protecting women is still a big part of that. If the neighbors hear shouting and fighting next door an call the police an a couple both accuse their spouse of domestic abuse 9 times out of ten it's the man being carted off to jail. An I'm not defending shitty men I'm saying cart BOTH of em off.

Its plausible that this is a factor but in no way does this explain a 90/10 split or 80/20 split in favor of men being more aggressive. Not to mention the scientific basis that shows men to be far more aggressive than women generally.

 

[Henkka]

That implies that humans are completely run by hardwired impulses. Are black men somehow more bestial and thus that's why they're more violent? Makes sense according to you, right?

I don't think I said anywhere that it's completely run by hardwired impulses. I think males have a greater tendency toward violence than females, and there's evidence from nature to support that. Males compete to mate with fertile females across many animal species. That competing often involves violence. While humans have somewhat overcome our lowly origins, that wiring is still in our subconscious.

As for your argument about black people, I don't think the same applies. There's no reason(From nature) to assume black people would be more innately hardwired for violence than white people, just because of crime statistics in the US. I think that has a lot more to do with poverty, Jim Crow laws and so on.

Or have you considered that a lot of what we consider innate is based on internal and external reinforcement? If you're told men are supposed to be tough and brutish, and women are supposed to be quiet and calming, don't be surprised that people tend to fill the roles you give them.

Of course it's affected by cultural ideas, as well. But I also think the cultural attitudes about men and women are somewhat rooted in our physical makeup. So what, you think someone in Africa thousands of years ago just decided that men are supposed to be brutish and women are supposed to be the opposite, and that meme just spread into every culture since? That you could just flip it, that it's arbitrary? I doubt it... The idea of men as the "brutes" comes from them being physically stronger. The idea of women being caretakers comes from them carrying children. Of course the extent of these ideas varies across cultures, but the common themes are often still there.

 

[Inferno313]

Moore's movies are very deceptively created. Scenes are staged and edited to prove the point Moore goes into it to prove. Even more so than the average documentary, they present a skewed version of the truth. I don't watch them anymore.

And as a pundit... he's a halfwit democratic cheerleader, not a thoughtful liberal theorist. The best I'll give him is that he's a familiar presence and I don't mind when he shows up on Bill Maher.

I mean, being deceptive is one thing, and a bad one, but documentaries are typically *not* supposed to be objective. Good documentaries are opinion pieces, editorials. They begin with a thesis and then supply the information to support that thesis. They're not, typically, meant to be objective reporting.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

That implies that humans are completely run by hardwired impulses. Are black men somehow more bestial and thus that's why they're more violent? Makes sense according to you, right?

Or have you considered that a lot of what we consider innate is based on internal and external reinforcement? If you're told men are supposed to be tough and brutish, and women are supposed to be quiet and calming, don't be surprised that people tend to fill the roles you give them.

No, that implies that human behavior is affected by hardwired impulses.

Why are you conflating race with sex? The poster you mentioned did no such thing. Why are you putting racist logic into his/her mouth to make your point?

Women are less violent and aggressive than men. Could that all be chalked up to cultural programming? I guess that's possible. Could some of it be due to biological differences in the sexes? I think it's unreasonable to rule that out as a possibility because the idea is unpalatable for some reason. And if that is true then maybe there is some sense in believing that, on average, the world might be a better place if more women were leaders in it.

 

[Aizen.S.Kennedy]

Its plausible that this is a factor but in no way does this explain a 90/10 split or 80/20 split in favor of men being more aggressive. Not to mention the scientific basis that shows men to be far more aggressive than women generally.

Oh yea I agree on that. Typically men are more aggressive just not at such a wide margin as society is led to believe. Also speaking of those scientific studies do you have any links? I wonder if it's just a basing it off of testosterone levels kinda thing or was it a putting men and women in certain situations and testing their aggressive kinda thing. If the latter I wonder how diverse those situations were. Maybe men and women get riled up over different things . Idk tho cause I've never looked at those studies.