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"Microsoft and Square are very happy with Rise and the dev team" says Brian Horton

C

CrichtonKicks

Member
giant_frying_pan said:
Do you know something I don't?
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This was linked to me earlier in the thread: link

Early 2016 for the PC version.
More time for the game to be *even better*? Sounds like a win-win scenario?
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Not so sure- I suspect that the reason that Eidos Montreal was a full co developer was to ensure timely development because they had to contractually deliver by Holiday 2015. Not sure if it's the same part of Eidos Montreal with their hands on the next Deus Ex but I genuinely wouldn't be surprised to find out that Mankind Divided wouldn't have been delayed if CD was the sole developer for RotTR.
 
G

giant_frying_pan

Member
Unknown One said:
Wait for bargain bin prices like most pc gamers did on TR2013. 5-10 dollar range.
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I mean, I'd prefer not to. Genuinely. But if I'm being treated as a second class citizen as someone who supported the previous product at full price then you could be on to something.

My time is limited and there's no shortage of distractions out there. But for the people questioning my logic in this thread...I don't see the logic in shafting PC customers when Microsoft absolutely are not in competition with its own platform.
 
P

Pathfinder

Member
Doctor_Thomas said:
I'm not wishing for the franchise to fail. I was a big fan of the reboot, I'm saying that Rise of the Tomb Raider will never hit those previous numbers - numbers that Square Enix were already disappointed with - and that the franchise has, in the space of two games, risen from the ashes and been completely dismantled, from a sales perspective. Game could be fantastic, wouldn't know, I can't play it.
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But you're acting like you'll never get to.

Yeah, they made a bad business deal, but calling for it to be the end of CD and lowering of Tomb Raider from AAA status is beyond ridiculous.

If you really want to play it, I'm sure you'll find a way. And the franchise will survive. Worse series have prevailed.
 
G

giant_frying_pan

Member
CrichtonKicks said:
This was linked to me earlier in the thread: link

Early 2016 for the PC version.


Not so sure- I suspect that the reason that Eidos Montreal was a full co developer was to ensure timely development because they had to contractually deliver by Holiday 2015. Not sure if it's the same part of Eidos Montreal with their hands on the next Deus Ex but I genuinely wouldn't be surprised to find out that Mankind Divided wouldn't have been delayed if CD was the sole developer for RotTR.
Click to expand...
Early 2016 could be as late as 31st May 2016. But I agree with your latter points regarding Deus Ex.
 
D

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Pathfinder said:
But you're acting like you'll never get to.

Yeah, they made a bad business deal, but calling for it to be the end of CD and lowering of Tomb Raider from AAA status is beyond ridiculous.

If you really want to play it, I'm sure you'll find a way. And the franchise will survive. Worse series have prevailed.
Click to expand...

I'll buy it regardless, on PS4, next year. I'm an easy sell, because I do want to play it.... but it couldn't sell this year, why would it sell next year?

I'm also not calling for anything, I'm just presenting with the potential impact a massive sales failure could have. It's entirely possible that CD are done, just as it's entirely possible that the whole thing will be ignored and the third game won't be attached to such a ridiculous deal.
 
A

Akara

Banned
Sure, MS paid the devs and probably more. Their pockets are filled to the brim, but that doesn't help establish the franchise in mainstream gaming one bit. It hurts it actually. This seems like a bad deal even if SE received more money in the end. One franchise that could have received much better coverage, sales and talk. Now I'm just hoping the Tomb Raider franchise can recoup from this and maintain its former popularity.
 
A

Akara

Banned
RE_Player said:
It's a shame. The game could have been huge.
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It looks incredible and I really would love to play it, but I'm not going to spend money to buy another console for a game that's coming out eventually on PS4. Timed exclusives do nothing for me.
 
C

CrichtonKicks

Member
I do wonder if there is an eject clause on the console exclusivity piece. Something like "SE delivers on quality (ie Metacritic score), MS must deliver on sales" that would allow them to push out a PS4 version earlier. Or maybe even a renegotiation ("hmm, we sure would like to stick to our plans on releasing FFXV on the Xbox One but we're not sure...."). Given how little that MS seems to care about the title now and the anaemic reaction from the market place there seems little value in maintaining that exclusivity for either side of the transaction.

giant_frying_pan said:
My time is limited and there's no shortage of distractions out there. But for the people questioning my logic in this thread...I don't see the logic in shafting PC customers when Microsoft absolutely are not in competition with its own platform.
Click to expand...


Presumably because the contract required a delay of the PC version? I doubt it was a concious decision on SE's part, especially when they have a great PC porting house though Nixxes did have their hands full with the 360 version of the game. More likely that the deal was contingent on complete MS exclusivity on all platforms for a certain period of time.


giant_frying_pan said:
Early 2016 could be as late as 31st May 2016. But I agree with your latter points regarding Deus Ex.
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Given Uncharted's March release I definitely think that any PC release will either be super early (mid-January to mid February) or later (April/May).
 
P

ProfessorMoran

Member
Ninja Sharingan said:
I'm sure square knows all the numbers and it made sense for them to do it. They will have done the mathe. This can't be detrimental to the money the game has made or they wouldn't have done it. People get paid a lot of money to work out that kind of stuff. I do wish it would have come out on everything tho. The game deserves a large fan Base
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A lot of bets were made and contracts were signed before anyone knew how the console landscape would end up, lots of publishers have made the wrong bet before, Square is no different, if anything it's hubris on Square's part to think they are capable of taking the money and playing the part of king maker.

In this case Square made a bad bet.
 
T

Tobor

Member
hawk2025 said:
Fun thought experiment:


What if the contract already locked in the supposed third game as a year-long exclusive?
Click to expand...

That would be dummmmmmmbbbbbbbbbbbbbb. One screw up is enough. If they tried it again they could actually kill the franchise.
 
R

Ray Down

Banned
hawk2025 said:
Fun thought experiment:


What if the contract already locked in the supposed third game as a year-long exclusive?
Click to expand...

SE was dumb when they already made this a timed exclusive.

But to not only have ROTR a timed exclusive but the next one too is unbelievable.
 
G

Gator86

Member
Pathfinder said:
Are you kidding? That's part of what intrigued me about the game.

I want Lara to be a real person with real problems.
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Real white people problems. I actually got a fair amount of Far Cry 3 vibes from the story. For a good chunk of the game, Lara is basically a bad guy.

Lara: Hey, I just so happened to lead a genocidal, private military to your home on my way to steal an important culturally and religiously significant relic from your indigenous group. I hope you don't mind because I'm going to take it anyway even if you protest because it's something I decided I'm interested in a few months ago and I don't give two shit about your society.
 
K

Kill3r7

Member
xxracerxx said:
If SE was competent, they would have had a thing in there about minimum sales before that happened.
Click to expand...

This line keeps getting brought up over and over again as thought it is an afterthought. SE would have had to give up something (either taken less money or longer period of exclusivity) in return for MS to agree to those terms. The very existence of this deal indicates that SE was not bargaining from a position of power.
 
P

Pathfinder

Member
Gator86 said:
Real white people problems. I actually got a fair amount of Far Cry 3 vibes from the story. For a good chunk of the game, Lara is basically a bad guy.

Lara: Hey, I just so happened to lead a genocidal, private military to your home on my way to steal an important culturally and religiously significant relic from your indigenous group. I hope you don't mind because I'm going to take it anyway even if you protest because it's something I decided I'm interested in a few months ago and I don't give two shit about your society.
Click to expand...

wat?
 
G

Garlador

Member
Akara said:
Well it definitely ain't closer to having the height of uncharted or previous Tomb Raider series. This is BAD no matter how many people try to flip it.
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It's not "the end" of the series... I mean, we survived "Angel of Darkness" too, right? (then again, Angel of Darkness actually debuted at #1 back in the day...)

The franchise isn't dead, but all this bad business really slammed the brakes on the forward momentum the reboot gave the series and brought it to a screeching halt.

So, yeah, maybe not "the end" (unless Square Enix's expectations were unreasonable... again), but let's not pretend the sales numbers are remotely competent. This is not good news. It is bad news.

It just not be so bad that it sinks the series. Hopefully.
 
C

CrichtonKicks

Member
[
Gator86 said:
Real white people problems. I actually got a fair amount of Far Cry 3 vibes from the story. For a good chunk of the game, Lara is basically a bad guy.

Lara: Hey, I just so happened to lead a genocidal, private military to your home on my way to steal an important culturally and religiously significant relic from your indigenous group. I hope you don't mind because I'm going to take it anyway even if you protest because it's something I decided I'm interested in a few months ago and I don't give two shit about your society.
Click to expand...

Uh, no. FC3 had a similar premise but the whole "rich white people problems" came from the cast of characters they started with. That isn't the same starting point of TR 2013 at all.
 
G

Gator86

Member
Pathfinder said:
wat?
Click to expand...

I don't really have time to write out a long, elaborate explanation, but the story has a lot of weird thematic stuff going on. There's kind of a white savior vibe going on with the way Lara swoops in to save the day constantly and her marginalization of groups she deals with, largely ignoring their cultural opposition to her goals simply because she doesn't give a shit about them.

CrichtonKicks said:
[

Uh, no. FC3 had a similar premise but the whole "rich white people problems" came from the cast of characters they started with. That isn't the same starting point of TR 2013 at all.
Click to expand...

I mean, FC3 was far more in your face and terrible but there's some similarity there. Also, Lara is the definition of a rich white person and her quest is almost entirely a self-focused crusade.
 
P

Pathfinder

Member
Gator86 said:
I don't really have time to write out a long, elaborate explanation, but the story has a lot of weird thematic stuff going on. There's kind of a white savior vibe going on with the way Lara swoops in to save the day constantly and her marginalization of groups she deals with, largely ignoring their cultural opposition to her goals simply because she doesn't give a shit about them.

I mean, FC3 was far more in your face and terrible but there's some similarity there. Also, Lara is the definition of a rich white person and her quest is almost entirely a self-focused crusade.
Click to expand...

If I had a dollar for every video game I've played where the main character marginalizes his or her opponents and largely ignores their cultural opposition while doing so, I would be a rich man.
 
G

Gator86

Member
Pathfinder said:
If I had a dollar for every video game I've played where the main character marginalizes his or her opponents and largely ignores their cultural opposition while doing so, I would be a rich man.
Click to expand...

You won't find an argument against your point here. However, I think that speaks pretty poorly of video game writing, in general.
 
A

Akara

Banned
Garlador said:
It's not "the end" of the series... I mean, we survived "Angel of Darkness" too, right? (then again, Angel of Darkness actually debuted at #1 back in the day...)

The franchise isn't dead,
but all this bad business really slammed the brakes on the forward momentum the reboot gave the series and brought it to a screeching halt.

So, yeah, maybe not "the end" (unless Square Enix's expectations were unreasonable... again), but let's not pretend the sales numbers are remotely competent. This is not good news. It is bad news.

It just not be so bad that it sinks the series. Hopefully.
Click to expand...

I agree. Please let this set a precedent for everyone, not just MS BUT Sony and Nintendo, NO TIMED EXCLUSIVES. Thank you!
 
C

CrichtonKicks

Member
Gator86 said:
II mean, FC3 was far more in your face and terrible but there's some similarity there. Also, Lara is the definition of a rich white person and her quest is almost entirely a self-focused crusade.
Click to expand...

But these aren't "rich white people problems". Like or dislike the story that shorthand really doesn't apply here. Self focused is a good thing in my mind as well- the altruistic "I am doing this for the greater good" is far too common and boring in video games. I find selfish motivations far more interesting even if they aren't fully developed.

I actually think the game touches on some issues on areas of faith that a lot of AAA games wouldn't go near (both sides believe they are doing their actions in service of what seems to be a traditional form of the Judeo Christian concept of God) but unfortunately doesn't really take it far enough to provide a specific commentary or point of view. I would write a little more on it but it really doesn't belong in this thread.
 
Stilton Disco

Stilton Disco

Member
Gator86 said:
I don't really have time to write out a long, elaborate explanation, but the story has a lot of weird thematic stuff going on. There's kind of a white savior vibe going on with the way Lara swoops in to save the day constantly and her marginalization of groups she deals with, largely ignoring their cultural opposition to her goals simply because she doesn't give a shit about them.

I mean, FC3 was far more in your face and terrible but there's some similarity there. Also, Lara is the definition of a rich white person and her quest is almost entirely a self-focused crusade.
Click to expand...

In fairness, if we're talking respecting people's cultural heritage and societal traditions, remember she is English, and trampling over other people's rights, stealing their things and not giving a fig about what anyone else wants is our culture and traditions.

Worse, she's an aristocrat, raised from birth to be the biggest arseholes of all.

Quite frankly she's just well written.
 
Chobel

Chobel

Member
CosmicQueso said:
Was a TR3 confirmed? I don't even know if you have a big budget console TR3.

Dev budgets always seem to go up with each sequel.
Click to expand...

Well this new TR reboot was planned as trilogy, and SE isn't known for killing franchises just because one entry under-performed.
 
M

Mooreberg

Member
Garlador said:
It's not "the end" of the series... I mean, we survived "Angel of Darkness" too, right? (then again, Angel of Darkness actually debuted at #1 back in the day...)

The franchise isn't dead, but all this bad business really slammed the brakes on the forward momentum the reboot gave the series and brought it to a screeching halt.

So, yeah, maybe not "the end" (unless Square Enix's expectations were unreasonable... again), but let's not pretend the sales numbers are remotely competent. This is not good news. It is bad news.

It just not be so bad that it sinks the series. Hopefully.
Click to expand...
As much as this whole thing reminds me of Shenmue II (exclusive to a system with a smaller install base, come out on the same day as a massive game), I don't think SE has reached 2001 era Sega levels of insanity yet. It will not be the end of the series. But if the general idea of how this game is selling outside of bundles is true, they will basically be reestablishing the series again with the sequel to this. It has been said before, but the moment Uncharted 4 got delayed, the reason for this game to come out in the fall ceased to exist. It is unlikely to even be a top five game on its own platform for the holidays with Halo 5, Black Ops III, Battlefront, Fallout 4, and NBA 2K16 being out there.

Deus Ex coming out next August (at the earliest) makes putting game into the fall grinder even less logical. There is too much to play to worry about it if you do not own an Xbox One, and even if you do, it is apparently not at the top of many people's priority list.
 
G

Goodacre0081

Member
hawk2025 said:
Fun thought experiment:


What if the contract already locked in the supposed third game as a year-long exclusive?
Click to expand...

another crazy thought.

MS buys the Tomb Raider IP out from SE. I wouldn't rule it out, especially after the purchase of Gears from Epic and the 2.5billion Mincecraft deal. Spencer said he was done with doing third party deals and that he wanted an Uncharted IP. this way they don't have to go through years of actually building an iconic franchise from the ground up like normal.
 
A

Akara

Banned
Goodacre0081 said:
another crazy thought.

MS buys the Tomb Raider IP out from SE. I wouldn't rule it out, especially after the purchase of Gears from Epic and the 2.5billion Mincecraft deal. Spencer said he was done with doing third party deals and that he wanted an Uncharted IP. this way they don't have to go through years of actually building an iconic franchise from the ground up like normal.
Click to expand...

That seems logical for microsoft. I mean they do have the $$$. Question is would SE sell it.

probably
 
N

NZNova

Member
x-Lundz-x said:
It's close to mine as well, the game is incredible. I just hope we get a third one.
Click to expand...

Agreed, Rise is so good and improves on the original so much. Hopefully the stupid exclusivity doesn't hamstring the series, because there's plenty of room for another sequel.
 
JohnnyFootball

JohnnyFootball

GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Ive seen a few people in this thread say that CD actually went to MS for this deal.

Can people actually provide a source on this?
 
S

Skilletor

Member
hawk2025 said:
Fun thought experiment:


What if the contract already locked in the supposed third game as a year-long exclusive?
Click to expand...

I would imagine that any such exclusivity contract would have a "the third game will be exclusive if the 2nd game meets xyz sales expectations" clause in it.

But...I know nothing of these things and just seems like common sense to have. I could be stupid and ignorant for thinking that would happen.
 
S

Shenmue

Banned
Goodacre0081 said:
another crazy thought.

MS buys the Tomb Raider IP out from SE. I wouldn't rule it out, especially after the purchase of Gears from Epic and the 2.5billion Mincecraft deal. Spencer said he was done with doing third party deals and that he wanted an Uncharted IP. this way they don't have to go through years of actually building an iconic franchise from the ground up like normal.
Click to expand...

Eh I don't know if the Xbox audience would justify MS buying Tomb Raider outright. They've got Gears for TPS games and I feel like the Xbox fanbase are more into the Gears type of TPS rather than the adventure-y TR type TPS.
 
C

CrichtonKicks

Member
Mooreberg said:
It will not be the end of the series. But if the general idea of how this game is selling outside of bundles is true, they will basically be reestablishing the series again with the sequel to this.
Click to expand...

That's my worry. There will obviously be more TR games. Hopefully by Crystal Dynamics (personally I have enjoyed every TR title they have put out). But if any lackluster financial performance is viewed as a rejection of the game's concept and execution and not outside factors then it may either send them running to another quasi-reboot or at least alter any plans for the third game to make it play more like a blank slate.

On the bright side I don't expect it will take long for a sequel to be greenlit assuming that it happens. CD is too big to sit around waiting to see the sales on the other 2 platforms and there isn't a huge DLC pipeline in the works either so all of those people need to be put on something relatively quickly.

Of course they may just return the favor and help push Mankind Divided out the door...
 
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