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Opinion Game Dev Hardware Microsoft Exec Bill Stillwell: “We have a better console; we’re not worried about power”

darkinstinct

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As long as they don't sell it for $100 more, pack-in a camera, and say it can't work without it. They may actually compete this gen.
Fun fact: A Kinect sits in every iPhone these days. It is used to make those animated emoji. The company that made the original Kinect shrank the tech down to be used in mobile devices, then Apple bought them. Another fun fact: The tech behind Kinect 2 sits in every VR/AR headset with inside-out tracking. Kinect was just too early. It would have been a great device today, with the tech that is available today.
 

Panajev2001a

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yup. Only Cerny and his fellow devs have the right to do that. Atleast Microsoft does PR with PR guys instead of using their devs to do PR for them.
Lol, you are really hung up on this. But sure, I am game... technically details coming up from industry veterans and respected software engineers are to be taken the same as technical details communicated by project managers and MBA degree holders... gotcha 😉.

It is like a big game of whataboutism and whitewashing all at once: “so what if you say this sounds like misleading PR, when Cerny talks is also technically PR, so it is all the same... PR”.
 

Tamy

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yup. Only Cerny and his fellow devs have the right to do that. Atleast Microsoft does PR with PR guys instead of using their devs to do PR for them.
yeah, I was wondering as well. Back when PS4 launched, we didn't hear that much. on twitter etc. "defending" PS4 and how "awesome" it was, and what kind of "experiences" we get and how "exciting" the PS4 is.
Weird that we get so much of it now for PS5.
 
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93xfan

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The million dollar question is can MS 1st party studios match what Sony's Worldwide studios can do with the hardware

Naughty Dog
Insomniac Games
Sucker Punch
Sony Santa Monica
Sony Bend
Guerrilla Games
Kojima Pro (3rd party but likely making another PS exclusive)
provably not. At least not in terms of single player games.

I was a mostly PS4 gamer this gen and bought many exclusives. But when I look back, it was uncharted 4 and gravity rush HD were really the only two that had a lasting appeal and sucked me in.

next gen I’ll continue to play a lot of multiplayer and Halo and Forza Horizon are great for that. If an irresistible exclusive comes out from Sony, I’ll consider a PS5 Pro at that time.

Third party has me covered for my Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, western RPG and other multiplayer needs.
 

longdi

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“I think what you saw [with the PS5 reveal] was the unfortunate by-product of a GDC talk being turned into a marketing event. I loved Sony’s talk, I think they’ve got some cool tech. I personally think we have a better console, we’re not worried about the power narrative.”
A MS guy is doing the honest for Sony honesty. Times are crazy! :messenger_astonished:
 

Bumblebeetuna

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Oh the irony.

When hellblade was on ps4 and pc only xbox owners called it anothrr walking simulator.

But now its a game? Ok.

Nothing against it i loved hellblade just pointing out the double standards
Woah as an Xbox fan I loved Hellblade. I wasn’t aware that because you saw maybe one or two trolls on twitter say it’s a walking simulator, that this must be the official stance of all Xbox owners. Does that work both ways? I remember when it was announced to be coming to Xbone, it wasn’t any good anymore. And when MS bought Ninja Theory, suddenly they’d never made a good game. Is that how this double standard nonsense works?
 

93xfan

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The “it just has Halo” argument is getting old.

Halo is a series where each game has many important and notable differences in the MP.

outside of Halo 4, Halo is a fantastic multiplayer experience- easily one of the best around.

Even if Halo Infinite sucks, I’ll still be playing Halo well into next gen due to the MCC.
 

ANIMAL1975

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“I think what you saw [with the PS5 reveal] was the unfortunate by-product of a GDC talk being turned into a marketing event. I loved Sony’s talk, I think they’ve got some cool tech. I personally think we have a better console, we’re not worried about the power narrative.”
Thread title is misleading and clickbite shit perfect for consol warz.
Personally i agree with everything the man says, GDC was wrongly turned in to a marketing event _ that's completely Sonys to blame! And it's driving me into the camp that thinks their PR and marketing are not doing a good job! And i was not on that camp in 2019 with the wired interviews, they indeed created hype and expectation! But that's off topic, back to the OT: he even says he liked GDC presentation and PS5 had cool things and shit ( yes PR talk but civilized and complimenting the competition!), and then he says, again in a civilized manner, that he personally thinks they have a better console and it's not worried with power... nothing to flame wars! Everyone in both sides are over reacting to everything.
 

Bernkastel

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Lol, you are really hung up on this. But sure, I am game... technically details coming up from industry veterans and respected software engineers are to be taken the same as technical details communicated by project managers and MBA degree holders... gotcha 😉.

It is like a big game of whataboutism and whitewashing all at once: “so what if you say this sounds like misleading PR, when Cerny talks is also technically PR, so it is all the same... PR”.
Says something about a platform when engineers are doing PR. Didnt Cerny also say that PS4 Pro is 8.4 TF because of fp16 ?
First of from Microsoft's engineers did speak about Series X. Like the Project Scarlet reveal or in Austin Evans/Digital Foundry reveal video where they were explained the details by Xbox Team. And theres this

But why do you think its Phil who walks to the stage and does the reveal? Same reason why Steve Jobs used to reveal new Apple products. Because he can, the bearded guy in the video cant create the same level of excitement like Phil does when talking in a stage. Same reason why Panos Panay reveals Surface products. You are the only person complaining about Phil doing the reveal.
 
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Panajev2001a

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Says something about a platform when engineers are doing PR
At GDC/for a GCD talk having the lead system architect, who is also a game development icon (with experience as a publisher too back at Universal), is not uncommon and worked great for PS4’s launch.
Also, at WWDC and other Apple events you may have seen Chris Lattner and Craig Federighi talk quite a few times too in those same presentations, but then again I do not expect you to know who the latter is and his background (he is a quite distinguished engineer himself and the VP of Engineering for both macOS and iOS/iPadOS).

Didnt Cerny also say that PS4 Pro is 8.4 TF because of fp16 ?
Do you have a set of arguments that you trot around like under the table aces at a poker game (hint: quite sure you already used this one and ignored replies on it)?

I am also noticing a theme, like with Raytracing and RDNA2 lineage, that with Cerny and PS5 in general anything they say is never taken even remotely close to face value despite them being quite clear about it: for months we had the “not real HW raytracing, it is shaders based, only MS confirmed raytracing, Sony is misleading people to steal MS’s thunder” followed by “PS5 is not RDNA2 based, Sony is hiding something, look at his expression when he takes about the GPU... he clearly stuttered there so clearly it has to be RDNA1 only maybe for compatibility it is just a GCN with some RDNA extensions”.
Everything Sony says, for a certain group of users, is seemingly always misleading or a lie... deserving the biggest of scrutiny and the most airtight proofs before. More made up “concern” drama like those or puddlegate is to be expected I guess.

Anyways, onto the FP16 bit, Cerny said that running FP16 / half floats code the performance of the GPU would double as it processes those operations at twice the rate it does FP32 / full floats ones, which is correct. Where possible FP16 Ops were already used to save bandwidth and improve register and local storage utilisation, but until Vega on Desktop/Laptops and PS4 Pro on consoles they would not allow faster processing on AMD HW.
What he did not say nor imply, in the Gamsutra interview, was that it was all an automagical thing. He also never implied any comparison with the Xbox One X full floats performance.

Oh...FP16... such a waste of transistors that AMD kept and doubled down upon (and MS touts as a good improvement in XSX) ;). Back to your false equivalence...


You are the only person complaining about Phil doing the reveal.
In the argument scenario you made up maybe, but in actual reality I have no problem with anyone doing the reveal. I am simply saying that so far I am willing, thanks to decades worth of experience and reputation of integrity and not of being a misleading hype generation machine, To grant Mark Cerny quite a bit of benefit of doubt.
 
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Bernkastel

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Do you have a set of arguments that you trot around like under the table aces at a poker game (hint: quite sure you already used this one and ignored replies on it)?

Cerny said that running FP16 / half floats code the performance of the GPU would double as it processes those operations at twice the rate it does FP32 / full floats ones, which is correct. Where possible FP16 Ops were already used to save bandwidth and improve register and local storage utilisation, but until Vega on Desktop/Laptops and PS4 Pro on consoles they would not allow faster processing on AMD HW.

What he did not say nor imply, in the Gamsutra interview that this was automagical nor he ever implied any comparison with the Xbox One X full floats performance. FP16 such a waste of transistors that AMD kept and doubled down upon (and MS touts as a good improvement in XSX) ;)
Like 90% of the post was something I never bought up. fp16 is the first thing(I am pretty I have only once bought it up before) that comes to mind when talking about Cerny PR.
If you insist, in the Wired reveal article Cerny mostly talked about SSD and Ray Tracing. But in the recent GDC reveal he talked about SSD and 3D Audio, while Ray Tracing was just brushed off lightly as a feature that just exists. Lets not forget the PS4 Pro reveal event(atleast Xbox One X had actual games in 4K and HDR)

PR guy indeed.
 
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Panajev2001a

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Like 90% of the post was something I never bought up. fp16 is the first thing(I am pretty I have only once bought it up before) that comes to mind when talking about Cerny PR.
If you insist, in the Wired reveal article Cerny mostly talked about SSD and Ray Tracing. But in the recent GDC reveal he talked about SSD and 3D Audio, while Ray Tracing was just brushed off lightly as a feature that just exists. Lets not forget the PS4 Pro reveal event(atleast Xbox One X had actual games in 4K and HDR)

PR guy indeed.
You keep throwing quickly made arguments at a wall and see if they stick and if they do not/get shot down you just take others and throw them then, not really bothering to read and argue with what has been said to you (the irony is that I see you often accuse others of it, projecting 101 I guess).
See throwing FP16, it not sticking, and you trying to move it to HDR (available to any PS4 model ever manufactured) and 4K (hilariously Cerny is the same person that talked about checkerboard rendering admitting the machine could do only some titles at true 4K but would utilise checkerboard rendering and other reconstruction methods for most other titles to reach higher resolution without compromising IQ, effects, and framerate... as well as stating the > 8 TFLOPS for all current generation games to comfortably get to 4K easily and without compromises, but then see FP16 is bullshit if a dev does not use it while it is lazy Japanese developers’ fault that they have to drop RE3 Remake resolution down in a patch).

And... oh wow, I was almost going to miss it: you are still trying to sell the same PS5 ray tracing capabilities “concern”/F.U.D.(see bolded), aren’t you :rolleyes:?
 

ANIMAL1975

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They were discusting jaggie messes with washed out colors!

Everytime i tried the same game on a PS3 I was shocked how worse it was.
Shit dude, do you have kids at home? Someone messed around with your ps3 menu and set it to 3D TVs display! I feel sorry for you bro, i used to play a lot of 3D compatible games, and yes, i remember the blurry mess going on my TV every time i took off the 3D glasses! You played like that the all gen? Respect bro!

I'm a little out of the loop on this. But haven't they shown more games than Sony has?
Games to launch with the systems? No, Sony hasn't yet shown their cards, maybe around E3 if they are going with the same plan as with ps4. And neither has Ms _ they showed Hellblade2 without date, without gameplay _ hardly a launch day (maybe launch window) title. And they showed project Mara... well the name says it all (or the lack of), it's from the same team making Hellblade2... and is it really going to be a game? It looked more like a tech demo to show their engine capabilities (the 1st trailer was their studios building inside!?).

yup. Only Cerny and his fellow devs have the right to do that. Atleast Microsoft does PR with PR guys instead of using their devs to do PR for them.
Lol who knows better?
PR guys or devs? PR guys... or the lead system engineer?
You're funny haha

SlashBash threads?

GTFO, FFS gaming side.
"Are you going to buy ps5 after Sonys anti consumer blurry image and frame pacing policy for ps3!?!?!?" OT.


All this after the hundreds of pages in the spec thread of the warriors telling themselves how the Ps5 is more powerful or better.

Just cuz one guy said they know they have the more powerful console and aren't worried about it lmao. The sensitivity is at an all time high with these guys.
You talking about Lady Bernkastel 43 posts/quotes on the 1st page alone? Yes it looks a little bit worrying.
 

Sosokrates

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Shit dude, do you have kids at home? Someone messed around with your ps3 menu and set it to 3D TVs display! I feel sorry for you bro, i used to play a lot of 3D compatible games, and yes, i remember the blurry mess going on my TV every time i took off the 3D glasses! You played like that the all gen? Respect bro!


Games to launch with the systems? No, Sony hasn't yet shown their cards, maybe around E3 if they are going with the same plan as with ps4. And neither has Ms _ they showed Hellblade2 without date, without gameplay _ hardly a launch day (maybe launch window) title. And they showed project Mara... well the name says it all (or the lack of), it's from the same team making Hellblade2... and is it really going to be a game? It looked more like a tech demo to show their engine capabilities (the 1st trailer was their studios building inside!?).


Lol who knows better?
PR guys or devs? PR guys... or the lead system engineer?
You're funny haha


"Are you going to buy ps5 after Sonys anti consumer blurry image and frame pacing policy for ps3!?!?!?" OT.



You talking about Lady Bernkastel 43 posts/quotes on the 1st page alone? Yes it looks a little bit worrying.
Yeah broski, 3d gaming on a 2d screen all the way 🤪
 
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Hobbygaming

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provably not. At least not in terms of single player games.

I was a mostly PS4 gamer this gen and bought many exclusives. But when I look back, it was uncharted 4 and gravity rush HD were really the only two that had a lasting appeal and sucked me in.

next gen I’ll continue to play a lot of multiplayer and Halo and Forza Horizon are great for that. If an irresistible exclusive comes out from Sony, I’ll consider a PS5 Pro at that time.

Third party has me covered for my Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, western RPG and other multiplayer needs.
This generation had a lot of good 3rd party games I agree and the games that I love on PS4
Uncharted 4
TLOU (missed it on PS3)
Spider-man
The Order 1886
Ratchet and Clank
Detroit
Until Dawn
Days Gone
Judgment
Concrete Genie
Death Stranding
God of War
Bloodborne
HZD
 

MiguelItUp

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Really though, I'm on no particular side, but when it comes to consoles it's not about the system and its specs its about what you do with it. So the games are going to be what carries it to success.
 
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Hobbygaming

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Says something about a platform when engineers are doing PR. Didnt Cerny also say that PS4 Pro is 8.4 TF because of fp16 ?
First of from Microsoft's engineers did speak about Series X. Like the Project Scarlet reveal or in Austin Evans/Digital Foundry reveal video where they were explained the details by Xbox Team. And theres this

But why do you think its Phil who walks to the stage and does the reveal? Same reason why Steve Jobs used to reveal new Apple products. Because he can, the bearded guy in the video cant create the same level of excitement like Phil does when talking in a stage. Same reason why Panos Panay reveals Surface products. You are the only person complaining about Phil doing the reveal.
MS is no stranger to PR. Here they tried to say the Xbox One had more bandwidth than the PS4 which had 176gb/s we know how that turned out
 
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MiguelItUp

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It's because it is the strongest console. Period. There's nothing more that can be added to that. It's just a true statement.
But in the console world, why does that even matter? It's an honest question. With every generation there has been a console that has a slight leg up over the other(s), but the outcome ends up being the same/very similar.

I guess I don't understand the idea of chasing the "console with superior hardware" as if it's a PC. A console can be SO incredibly strong, but if it doesn't do much with it, how is it going to prove anything?
 

Hobbygaming

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thats the point, back then MS had the inferior console and then they did this PR talk and now Sony does it, why does sony do it?



why dont we see ads like this anymore?
I haven't seen Sony advertising to be the most powerful since both consoles have been revealed

What we saw is a deep dive from Mark Cerny and 3rd party developers telling insiders that PS5 is better in a lot of ways
 
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Naked Lunch

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The “it just has Halo” argument is getting old.

Halo is a series where each game has many important and notable differences in the MP.

outside of Halo 4, Halo is a fantastic multiplayer experience- easily one of the best around.

Even if Halo Infinite sucks, I’ll still be playing Halo well into next gen due to the MCC.
Pretty much. Sony and Nintendo have zero competition for Halo. There is no go to skill based MP fps that can compare on consoles. Infinite with its extra long dev time has a real shot at being something special. Regardless, the Master Chief Collection will be played and populated a decade from now.
 
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Bernkastel

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Since Spencer got the crown in 2014, MS always talk about Sony and playstation. They need it cause it is only way to be heard.
Nice way to change goalposts. They only do when asked in an interview like Cerny
 

Gavon West

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Since Spencer got the crown in 2014, MS always talk about Sony and playstation. They need it cause it is only way to be heard.
Again, the guy was ASKED what he thought. Even Phil is ASKED. Its not like they just bring up Sony. They dont
 
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Nice way to change goalposts. They only do when asked in an interview like Cerny
At that time, MS had promoted X as 6tf.

That's when he got on the bullhorn telling gamers true 4k needs 8tf and PS4 Pro has more tf if you do F16 and get 8.4tf.... which magically fits his 8tf 4k claim.
 
V

Vilix

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I don’t care about power either. Just bring me the games that appeal to me.
 

Major_Key

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Don't care about powa, Games matter.

Give me Fable,Perfect Dark and Banjo.
 
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Kolumbo

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I think the gap is not too big between the 2 consoles. What will decide who wins are the exclusive games. And I believe Sony has the edge on that front. Ps1 was the weakest and it still won. Ps2 was weaker than xbox and gamecube and it won. I just want good games and lots of ports to the PC since it's my main platform.
 
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DonF

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thats the point, back then MS had the inferior console and then they did this PR talk and now Sony does it, why does sony do it?



why dont we see ads like this anymore?
Cause it would not be true.
 

Panajev2001a

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This is incorrect. Just plain out wrong.
The reason I dislike the war-like-mentality that can happen in politics or in console activism (which helps the astroturfers already there) is that not being misleading or disingenuous is second to appearing right and a distant third to winning an argument or the fight at hand... that is a step above those who just want to take the piss to upset the “other lot”.
 
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mckmas8808

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The reason I dislike the war like mentality that can happen in politics or in console activism (which helps the astroturfers already there) is that not being misleading or disingenuous is second to appearing right and a distant third to winning an argument or the fight at hand... that is a step above those who just want to take the piss just to upset the “other lot”.
Exactly! That FP16 quote from Cerny is being "used" improperly. And I notice it's being used by certain parties a lot within the last 2 weeks specifically.
 

Gavon West

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Exactly! That FP16 quote from Cerny is being "used" improperly. And I notice it's being used by certain parties a lot within the last 2 weeks specifically.
Well, if Sony fans would just get over the weakest console for next gen and just be excited of what the PS5 is, things would go alot smoother. Its all the bending and twisting of facts that becomes utterly exhausting. Its pretty bold of you to make such a comment like this when Sony fans have been trying to close the power gap since this info was released. It simply ain't gonna happen. Its done. Its over.

On one hand, power doesnt matter. Gimme the games. On the other, its exclusives that really matter, not power. You guys can't get your shit together because Sony doesnt have theirs together. Frankly, Xboxers know what to expect because its all been laid out for us. There's no question about what we're getting. We aren't looking for secret sauce because Series X IS the secret sauce. Clarity and transparency is a hell of a thing.
 

Panajev2001a

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Well, if Sony fans would just get over the weakest console for next gen and just be excited of what the PS5 is, things would go alot smoother. Its all the bending and twisting of facts that becomes utterly exhausting
This is interestingly self unaware at best and disingenuous at worst.

You guys can't get your shit together because Sony doesnt have theirs together
Would you suggest Sony fans strategised together to keep the company line and fight the war like proper forum soldiers would :LOL:?
 
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Gavon West

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This is interestingly self unaware at best and disingenuous at worst.


Would you suggest Sony fans strategised together to keep the company line and fight the war like proper forum soldiers would :LOL:?
Wait. Did I say something false? Is the PS5 not the weaker console? It factually is.

Perhaps I wasn't clear on my other statements but, I'll clarify. Sony left alot of unanswered questions on the table with some less than transparent talking points when it comes to the hardware or form factor. Because of the lack in clarity about their console, we're still getting articles and videos ad nauseum trying to justify the power delta of the PS5. If the message was clear and concise, and if the PS5 wasnt the weaker of the two consoles, all of these articles, videos and mental gymnastics wouldn't be necessary. At all.

Hope this clears up any misunderstandings.
 
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Gavon West

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This is interestingly self unaware at best and disingenuous at worst.


Would you suggest Sony fans strategised together to keep the company line and fight the war like proper forum soldiers would :LOL:?
Repost. My bad
 
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Panajev2001a

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Wait. Did I say something false? Is the PS5 not the weaker console? It factually is.

Perhaps I wasn't clear on my other statements but, I'll clarify. Sony left alot of unanswered questions on the table with some less than transparent talking points when it comes to the hardware or form factor. Because of the lack in clarity about their console, we're still getting articles and videos ad nauseum trying to justify the power delta of the PS5. If the message was clear and concise, and if the PS5 wasnt the weaker of the two consoles, all of these articles, videos and mental gymnastics wouldn't be necessary. At all.

Hope this clears up any misunderstandings.
It was with it sounding a bit like a “they are asking for it” kind of excuse for the trolling, quasi religious (or astroturfy) posting of XSX PR and marketing statements in the midst of discussions where it belongs and where it does not, and facts twisting drive-by’s we all see in PS5 related threads trying to create “concern” around any perceived strength, trying to create a new narrative out of it.

You answered as you did in response to this statement:
Exactly! That FP16 quote from Cerny is being "used" improperly. And I notice it's being used by certain parties a lot within the last 2 weeks specifically.
It read as you were justifying the behaviour he was taking about because that side does not “take the L” essentially.

You won the TFLOPS war, get over it ;).



The truth is that it is not enough for many, winning should come as a humiliation of the opponent and should drive more excitement, more hype, more social media presence/visibility, etc... and it is not happening... and the power delta is smaller than the narrative would want to see it as... and there are unique strengths on both sides of the aisle that make the better system not just a game of TFLOPS (hence the accusations and the articles and the bashing on the forums around the SSD, despite towing the company line and being super impressed by the Velocity Architecture and its potential, potential dissipating after you pass 2.4 GB/s of uncompressed bandwidth).

It is not about accepting one console has strengths the other does not, it is the attitude of continuing what looks like a forum war until the other “side” surrenders without conditions.
 
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